Why does KB/M get a free pass as the best controller/methods?

Ask MS why PC/xbone crossplay is not a thing any more and you'll know why KB/mouse is superior.

For the biggest genres, KBM is far more superior. Thats why it gets a free pass.

All shooters(fps and tps), all strategy(real time and turn based), RPGs, card games, city sims and mobas are superior with KBM.

In fact. Kbm performs very adequately with racing, platforming and flying sims.

it doesnt get a free pass, its been tested, so it snot a 'free pass'

now farming sims however it might be the same between the two kinds of inputs :)

And that's exactly it. If everyone has the same inputs on both platforms, then why would one automatically require more skill than the other when competing against other people?

Facing AI only, this may be a legitimate argument. But, again, I've seen people that were better with controllers than with mouse and keyboard, so that is a thing.

A mouse and keyboard allow for more skill because reflexes are not restricted. On a controller, you can only turn so fast. I've never seen a controller user pull off a rocket jump with a soldier in TF2, switch to shotgun mid-arc, blast someone dead, switch to shovel and tag someone in the head as they land. That's a pretty common occurrence on the PC.

And of course, if you take someone who is only used to controllers and give them a mouse and keyboard, they're gonna suck. Like anything, it takes practice and acclimation.

This. There's a minimum duration to perform certain movements with an analogue stick. Time costs efficiency.

When I first started playing Doom LAN MP a long time ago, it was choose your own control scheme. Me? I personally started out with a joystick and mouse. It was a great setup for circle-strafing. But, it was lacking in other areas. I also tried a Gravis Game Pad and a Space Orb 360. But, in the end, keyboard and mouse turned out to be the most flexible.

Keyboard only. It's not like you had to look up and down. :-p

Really, it all comes down to preference.

I would probably play my PS4 a lot more if it had a mouse and keyboard setup. And if it had more good games :P Controllers are small and awkward and holding my hands together cradling a piece of plastic just feels odd. I know that probably sounds strange to console owners, but preferring a controller sounds pretty odd to me.

At my desk with my PC, my arms rest comfortably at a neutral position over mouse and keyboard, with my Cherry switches responding to my touch. I can simultaneously move acrobatically, smoke some fool, then type out something at 75 words per minute, and get right back to gaming.

A controller is finite, constrained, limiting. A keyboard is infinite, free, and limitless.

A thumbstick forces you to pan at a certain rate that it cumbersome and imprecise. A mouse flicks with high precision near-instantly to where I want the cursor/my view to be.

A controller forces you to click, click, click through every item in your inventory, while with a mouse I can just select the item.

Yeah, it's not a "free pass". Mouse and keyboard is objectively better for literally everything except racing games and maybe fighting games.

There's no accounting for taste, though; if someone prefers controller, that's your choice.

Probably the same reason people get upset with flat earth theorists. It's beyond stupid. Offensively stupid, you could say. It is not so much that your belief is targeted at me as to be offensive, as it simply is offensive on it's own.

To answer your question, though: generally when something is more capable, it raises the bar of what you can do, raising the skill level you need to use it to it's fullest potential...so a KB/M requires more skill to master, while a controller has a relatively low bar because you can only do so much with it.

Just about any adult can drive a Honda Civic to its fullest potential on city streets. Not everyone can take a Porsche to its limits on the Nurburgring.

I find being a capable player in a game to be the most immersive thing. I am constantly pulled out of the game by the limitations of a controller, whereas with a keyboard and mouse I know I am capable of doing everything I need to do, and doing it efficiently.

I am painfully aware of a controller in my hand when I play on consoles. I don't notice my mouse and keyboard in my hands when I play on PC.

KB/M is very versatile. Almost any genres can be played on it and be viable.
Controllers aren't easy to use when playing shooters, especially those that need fast reflexes.

I'd argue that even in 3rd person adventure games(I prefer KB/M on Dark Souls III than controllers), it's a much easier device to use due to macros and layout.

But at the end of the day, it's all about preference. You could argue all you want, but it's all about preferences.

I find Dark Souls 3 harder to play, but that might be because I'm used to the controller from my PS3 days with Demon's Souls. However, I do agree that most 3rd person adventure games I enjoy much more on M&K; Assassin's Creed Odyssey being the latest. The M&K controls are fantastic, and I'm playing on the 2nd highest difficulty and enjoying it immensely(I was on the highest, but the game rarely ever saves, and dying came much easier, and I just got sick of losing the last 20 minutes of progress clearing a fort if I accidentally died, so I lowered it one notch).

@DragonfireXZ95: Yeah, maybe DS3 wasn't a good example, but at least you get the picture :P

It was still better to turn with a mouse (mouselook). I've had a mouse with my games since the latter half of the 80's.

Even back then, most of us had already discovered how convoluted keyboard-only gaming is.

Because controlling a camera in 3D game with controller sucks and will always suck.

Old outdated tech...... Last time I used KB/M for gaming... I fell off mah dinosaur. :P

Because PC users are a vocal minority.

There is nothing that gives you less comfort then holding a controller that the xbox/ps4 uses. Holding hands together like that is unnatural like hell. Atleast nintendo got that memo with wii/switch.

Keyboard mouse is far more comfortable then what sony/microsoft got.

Really...? Did you know some people develop tendinitis because of prolonged use of KBM?

PC has the most users on Earth, more than any other system by a lot. That's not including web/browser games.

Also the most played and popular genres on Earth are exclusive on PC or mostly played on PC.

Yeah I definitely meant that when I said KB has 8-way control. It actually works great for many fighting games since the best ones only have 8 input directions. I frequently use my kb to play Tekken and Soul Calibur, sometimes Street Fighter III 3s. Arcade sticks work better for most arcade fg's of course, but I actually think I perform better on KB with some Tekken characters like Bryan Fury.

@zaryia: no shit, Sherlock, it's as if PC isn't used for something like... PRODUCTIVITY.

I was strictly talking for video games.

You didn't specify that.

And only MP games have a high userbase, those users are casuals and don't come to forums, hence, you're a vocal minority.

Complete opposite for me. A mouse and keyboard feel completely unnatural and uncomfortable. I'm constantly aware of it and it's a struggle to keep the mouse centered on the pad so it doesn't fall off, and especially to find the right keys on the keyboard. I basically have to keep my left hand locked into position so I don't lose track of the keys, which is very uncomfortable, and yes, I'm aware that's because I'm not that experienced with it. I just don't think I'll ever be able to get used to it. The hand separation doesn't feel right either.

Controllers just feel so right. I can do anything and everything without ever thinking about it. It's second nature. With my hands close together, it feels like my hands are actually working in tandem, because they are. I guess it's easier to focus on them both that way.

Whatever minimal accuracy I might gain from a mouse (and it is minimal), it's not worth the other trade-offs. That's the thing with preferences, though. They're preferences.

The most played games on the planet, and system with most gamers on the planet, use KB/M.

Stop moving the goal post.

I don't know why people still use mouse pads. I just pick a desk that has an ideal surface for an optical/laser mouse to glide on.

The above I thought "fair enough, if you prefer analog for moving in diablo, shit for everything else though (inventory management and aiming)...

Then this:

I also prefer FPS with a controller, why does the KB/M automatically get considered the best method of control for these? I have to keep lifting the mouse if I aim too far, etc. Ewwww

"I have to keep lifting the mouse if I aim too far.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Yea.. you've lost me here... my god... what is this the 1990s?

From what I've heard a lot the top 500 console Overwatch players use a m/kb setup. A controller even at max sensitivity can't match the mouse flicks I see PC gamers do for FPS's.

@mrbojangles25: Mouse and keyboard is objectively better for literally everything except racing games and maybe fighting games.

How on earth are you going to play a fighting game with a mouse Mr Bojangles?

jun_aka_pektoI don't know why people still use mouse pads.

Just if the surface isn't good at picking up lasers or a bit reflective. I find wood is the best surface for optical mice.

But it will wear surfaces out over time.

I'm using one on a glass surface coffee table for instance.

"I have to keep lifting the mouse if I aim too far....

Has everyone seen my track ball control pad which solves this thread topic problem yet?

I realised afterwards, if you're aiming with the ball the pad would also need trigger buttons.

@jackamomo: The Steam Controller sorta-kind-of-not-really has a trackball on it. I mean, it's a trackpad really, but same purpose. Roll your thumb over it. You can click it, too.

It actually acts like a trackball, too, because if you go fast over it you can "throw" it just like a trackball and the action will continue to go. You can adjust the sensitivity, the "throw" inertia, and so on.

It's a really great controller, conceptually.

Yeah, what a joke. I can literally get from one side of my screen to the other in about 1.5 inches of movement. That means I can look behind me with a flick of the wrist. Can do a 360 using about 1/3 of the area of my mousepad (yes, I still use them...)

And I consider myself on the low end of sensitivity based on how I see other people play.

Do I have to lift my mouse occasionally? Yes, very occasionally. But it's still preferable to leaning on a thumbstick waiting for my view to move to where I want it, never really getting there, and ultimately relying on autoaim to shoot accurately.

I mean, really? Autoaim? Still, in the 21st century? What are we, cavemen?

Some days I prefer vanilla ice cream. Some days I prefer strawberry ice cream. It's mind boggling.

@mrbojangles25: It's a really great controller, conceptually. [Steam controller]

Very notable inclusion of a final word there...

@jun_aka_pekto: So you would rather base your desk choice, which costs hundreds of dollars, around the idea of not having to use a mouse pad... instead of simply getting a decent mouse pad for like 7 bucks. Or getting a whole nice desk mat. Also optical mice don't work well on a shit ton of surfaces, and optical mice are the best for gaming. There's also the fact that well made mouse pads are nice and soft and comfortable for your hand/wrist to lay on. Much more comfortable than a hard desk.

This would be a much preferred control method for first person games than KB/M for me. WASD and the "ergonomics" of a keyboard in general just suck for these types of games. Something like a Move controller in the left hand looks way more appealing, while still having the perfect aiming of a mouse.

Meh. I've tried this with the old Fragnstein. Frankly, it sucks.

The joystick is still terribly clumsy, especially when tying to a fast mouse design.

I can't think of any games where analog movement would even benefit you versus just hitting a walk key.

You also lose the 20 other buttons around WASD that you can't hit.

This one might actually be the most interesting gamepad to combine with a mouse.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolermaster/controlpad-24-keys-with-analog-control

You guys are really, really overplaying the importance of 360 degree movement in shooters. I'd rather have eight way movement with all the buttons surrounding WASD. It offers far more versatility than an index finger switching between two triggers and a thumb having to leave movement to interact with just four buttons. Eight directions is fine for most games, and the mouse/camera allows you to make it a full 360 anyway.

One finger (Thumb) to control 6 buttons and your directional movement. No thanks I'd rather have the versatility that 107 keys and 5 fingers allow.

My desk is hardwood and has a gloss varnish coating thin enough so that I can feel the wood grain. It's awesome for an optical mouse. My desk is big enough so that my arm can rest on the desk surface almost to my elbow. There's no problem with putting too much tension on my wrists. It's L-shaped. So, on many instances, I actually have my left elbow resting on the desk itself (if I shift my monitor a bit to the right).

I based my choice of this desk on:

1. It can hold 2 x 21" CRT monitors at 70 lb apiece and still have plenty of room.

2. The desk surface is ideal for an optical mouse.

3. Ample storage space.

4. Hardwood and not particle board or glass.

5. Legroom. I lean back (instead of hunching over) with my feet resting on the subwoofer.

6. Modular. I can assemble/disassemble the desk in 5 minutes. 10 minutes if I'm really feeling lazy about it. ;)

You mean it will wear out the mouse surface that glides over the desk. I've had my desk since 2003. It's the mouse that gives out first. It takes years. But, the glue-mounted rubber surface of the mouse eventually wears out. No big deal because by the time that happens, it's time to buy a new mouse.

I suppose I can make my mouse last longer if I use a mousepad. But, nah. I like the freedom of not having to use a pad.

For the genre's I play, I prefer a controller in fighters, platformers, sports, and racing games. For FPS, TPS, ARPGS, I prefer a KB/M. Though, I acknowledge some prefer controllers for everything and that is ok. It all depends on what you like. I did use to prefer controllers for everything as well till I got into PC gaming about 6 years ago. I then found out how much I prefer KB/M especially for shooters.

First of all, I hope you realize that there's multiple triggers on the back. So you're controlling it with 2 fingers, not 1.

Secondly, what kind of first person shooter needs that many buttons.

- ADS and Shoot(right and left click)

-Sprint(L3 on the analog stick aka clicking down the stick, doesn't require pressing an extra button)

-Jump(Can be assigned to one of the Move triggers on the back so you can jump while strafing)

- Grenade(one of the Move triggers)

- Melee(middle mouse button)

-Crouch(X or Circle)

- Search/Interact(One of the side mouse buttons)

Seriously that's pretty much almost everything important for most games covered. If you need to add anything you could either utilize more of the unused buttons on the Move or simply buy a gaming mouse with more buttons. the G502 is one of the most popular gaming mice and it has plenty of buttons to spare. You act like I'm talking about MMOs or Mobas here. We're talking about FPS lol. FPS controls are pretty simple.

You guys are really underplaying the importance of ergonomics and comfortably. And it was never just about 360 degree movement. It's also about analog movement allowing you to control exactly how fast or slow you want to move. You simply can't do these things with a keyboard. Just because you don't think you'd care about them, doesn't mean they don't exist. To ignore these advantages is just as hypocritical as console fanboys ignoring the advantages of the mouse having better aim. And there's a reason a non-gamer can pick up a controller and figure out how to play in seconds, but would struggle way more if you told them "aim with the mouse and use WASD on the keyboard to move". Because a keyboard was not invented for gaming and WASD is cumbersome, clunky, and uncomfortable. Sure, you might have mastered it and it find it easy. But for the majority of people it's not.

I've already stated in a previous reply, this setup has plenty of buttons for the vast majority of FPS games. With sprint mapped to L3 and the 2 triggers on the back mapped, as well as a mouse with multiple side buttons, there's very few FPS games I can think of that you should need more buttons mapped for.

everyone acknowledges that WASD isn't as good as an analog, but typically people acknowledge that this is a lesser sacrifice for better improvements in about every area.

I feel you on having the freedom. The mouse mat with edges sometimes annoyed me, especially in the older days. Love the new extended mats they are putting out, instead. I also love that you can get nice cloth ones, as plastic/hard surfaces tend to bother the skin on my wrist over time, and that cheap rubbery felt stuff was horrible with mice.

@Messiahbolical-: I don't think people are discounting your style if that's what you prefer. They are simply giving you their opinion. If someone wants to use a controller in a competitive PC FPS game, more power to them, I say. But, it is objectively faster to have keyboard buttons at your finger tips.

Also, the cooler master pad I linked you allows you to control analog movement with the keyboard keys.

You can't be serious. I've witnessed non-gamers completely fail at trying to play modern 3D games with a controller. It takes practice, like using a keyboard.

@Messiahbolical-: Walk, Prone, weapon and grenade select/change (lol clumsy weapon wheels), reload. Anything on L3 is easily misused. The position of X and O mean the loss of movement control to crouch or stand up.

If I was talking about MMO's, Mobas or RTS I'd be talking single key press macro's which is way too complicated for a controller and also why those genres are very under represented on consoles.