What's causing Gears 5's story mood (more drama)?

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Posted by rzxv04 (686 posts) 2 months, 3 days ago

Poll: What's causing Gears 5's story mood (more drama)? (21 votes)

Sony movie games success 14%
Feminist movement 29%
SJWs 29%
All of the above 43%
Combinations of the above 29%
None of the above 10%
Others reasons 10%

Check some of the comments on the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEpWlFfpEkU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bp-UbOlqFA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwq_2geuW-A

"Feelings"

"teen drama"

"periods of war"

"kitchen edition"

Who knows, maybe it'll have the reception of nuGoW after all the youtube tease comments of "dad of war","soy of war", etc., once people get their hands on it.

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#1 Posted by Daredevils2k (2028 posts) -

Well MS just are not that great at making movie games, so probably why all the drama around GEOW 5

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#2 Posted by NoodleFighter (10234 posts) -

The focus of the series moving from Marcus Fenix and co to Kate Diaz may be a turn for the worse. From what I've seen playing Gears Of War 4 Kait displays the worst traits of female nature. You really see how illogical, over emotional and self absorbed she can get in Gears Of War 4 and in the Gears Of War 5 trailer. It doesn't help look of female protagonist in gaming. If she doesn't grow as a person then things will likely go downhill as the only thing going for her is being a descendant of the Locust Queen. At times I wanna jump in the screen and slap the shit out of her and tell her dumbass if not for JD and Marcus your ass would have died along time ago if you tried going for your mother alone. The fact she wanted to rush into a Swarm nest which was twice the size of the one they barely got out of with the just the equipment and team they had, shows how highly illogical and overemotional she is. It is likely is all of the above contributing to the new Gears Of Wars "drama". Nowadays a game has to have some "narrative" and meet some "progressive" check list in order to be seen as good by journalist.

The old Gears Of War series was better drama in my especially if you read the comics. If they added events and backstory from the comics into the game it would show a lot more depth to series which is mostly seen as generic macho buff marine dudes vs bad aliens/monsters. One of the things I like about Gears Of War is how dark and gritty it is. It also brought up the subjects of war, environmentalism and questioning humanity. The lore behind the series is mostly well thought out and very interesting. All of humanity lives on one huge continent and if anyone knows history well geography plays a big factor. Since every country is next door neighbors with each other non-stop war is a very realistic result. Learning that humanity on Sera rarely had moments of peace already tells you a lot about the people on that planet. In the first game when Dom breaks Marcus out of prison and you see mutilated corpses everywhere that wasn't done by the Locust, it was actually done by the prison staff. Marcus was thrown into a pretty brutal prison where for example they'd have guard dogs chase inmates back into their cells and those that didn't make it in time would get mauled to death, that is just one of the many effed up things done by people in that prison. They don't tell you that in the game though and Marcus was purposely left behind in the prison while everyone else was pardoned to participate in the Locust war because the guy doing the pardoning had a personal grudge against him and would rather see him rot than have another soldier contribute to the fight of saving humanity.

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#3 Posted by rzxv04 (686 posts) -

@NoodleFighter said:

The focus of the series moving from Marcus Fenix and co to Kate Diaz may be a turn for the worse. From what I've seen playing Gears Of War 4 Kait displays the worst traits of female nature. You really see how illogical, over emotional and self absorbed she can get in Gears Of War 4 and in the Gears Of War 5 trailer. It doesn't help look of female protagonist in gaming. If she doesn't grow as a person then things will likely go downhill as the only thing going for her is being a descendant of the Locust Queen. At times I wanna jump in the screen and slap the shit out of her and tell her dumbass if not for JD and Marcus your ass would have died along time ago if you tried going for your mother alone. The fact she wanted to rush into a Swarm nest which was twice the size of the one they barely got out of with the just the equipment and team they had, shows how highly illogical and overemotional she is. It is likely is all of the above contributing to the new Gears Of Wars "drama". Nowadays a game has to have some "narrative" and meet some "progressive" check list in order to be seen as good by journalist.

The old Gears Of War series was better drama in my especially if you read the comics. If they added events and backstory from the comics into the game it would show a lot more depth to series which is mostly seen as generic macho buff marine dudes vs bad aliens/monsters. One of the things I like about Gears Of War is how dark and gritty it is. It also brought up the subjects of war, environmentalism and questioning humanity. The lore behind the series is mostly well thought out and very interesting. All of humanity lives on one huge continent and if anyone knows history well geography plays a big factor. Since every country is next door neighbors with each other non-stop war is a very realistic result. Learning that humanity on Sera rarely had moments of peace already tells you a lot about the people on that planet. In the first game when Dom breaks Marcus out of prison and you see mutilated corpses everywhere that wasn't done by the Locust, it was actually done by the prison staff. Marcus was thrown into a pretty brutal prison where for example they'd have guard dogs chase inmates back into their cells and those that didn't make it in time would get mauled to death, that is just one of the many effed up things done by people in that prison. They don't tell you that in the game though and Marcus was purposely left behind in the prison while everyone else was pardoned to participate in the Locust war because the guy doing the pardoning had a personal grudge against him and would rather see him rot than have another soldier contribute to the fight of saving humanity.

Really wish they'd show most of that and deliver them well on the main campaign not just the comics. Sounds interesting. Probably got too distracted by the one kept shouting train and train. I enjoyed playing all SP gears. Was the last couch coop I've had and will probably be the last since that gen seem over :(

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#4 Posted by floppydics (84 posts) -

People have short memories. Doom and god of war remakes got slammed before release then the haters and drama queens did a complete u-turn after the critical reception of them. Now they pretend they loved them all along. Maybe the same can happen for gears 5 eh, there has been a few good entries in the series.

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#5 Posted by freedomfreak (51180 posts) -

I hope the new cast dies 10 minutes into the game, and you go back to playing as Delta Squad, but cooler Delta Squad because everyone got older.

And bring Sam back to replace Dom.

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#6 Posted by Sam3231 (2566 posts) -

"Gears of Strange."

"Life is war."

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#7 Posted by NoodleFighter (10234 posts) -

@rzxv04 said:

Really wish they'd show most of that and deliver them well on the main campaign not just the comics. Sounds interesting. Probably got too distracted by the one kept shouting train and train. I enjoyed playing all SP gears. Was the last couch coop I've had and will probably be the last since that gen seem over :(

The games don't do the Locust race any justice either. They constantly portray and treat them like they're some dumb hive mind when that's far from it. The Locust in the games are mostly silent and all they say is one word or phrase such as "Die!", "Boom!" and "For The Queen!".

There is an amazing amount of depth to characters such as General RAAM and Skorge that the games don't show. Before the Locust Wars there was the Lambent Wars in which RAAM was fighting in the front lines of as a drone and later elite guard. RAAM and Skorge formed a sense of camaraderie during their battles to the point they even refer to each other as brother. At one point both of them sneaked up to the surface and observed humanity which at the time was in the Pendulum Wars. RAAM pointed how stupid and self absorbed the humans were in killing each other.

RAAM was the one that came up with the Emergence Day plan not Queen Myrrah. Queen Myrrah and the general at the time Sraak were too focused on fighting the lambent not realizing how dangerous they were but RAAM was smart enough to know that the lambent would win in their current conditions so it would be better to invade the surface so they can increase their chances of surviving and winning. RAAM was able to get the attention of Queen Myrrah by having has team not go to their deployment of the south hollows. RAAM tries to talk to the queen but gets stopped by Sraak who refuses to believe that the Locust are losing to the lambent and claims that RAAM and Skorge are cowards for leaving their positions. RAAM tries to get past him to find the Queen but Sraak beats him to a bloody pulp and he gets carried off by Skore. Queen Myrrah was watching in the shadows and started question Sraak if the hollows were secure and the lambent were losing. Sraak claimed they were but she later learned that wasn't the case. RAAM was also charismatic enough to win over the other Locust troops which is greatly how he became the new general because despite how big and strong he is Sraak was even bigger and stronger than him. Before Emergence Day RAAM, Skorge and Sraak got into a fight to the death, Sraak was easily overpowering RAAM and Skorge and was just about to kill RAAM until he got shot by a soldier from his troop and was then finished off by RAAM. RAAM stating he may be strong but he doesn't have the support of the horde backing him and the soldier that shot Sraak stated they all side with RAAM being in charge. RAAM was also smart enough to eliminate high ranking leaders in the COG to demoralize their soldiers.

Another interesting thing was that the Locust knew that Queen Myrrah wasn't one of them. The reason they follow her though is because they see her as a prophet due to her immunity to imulsion mutation.

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#8 Posted by rzxv04 (686 posts) -

@NoodleFighter said:
@rzxv04 said:

Really wish they'd show most of that and deliver them well on the main campaign not just the comics. Sounds interesting. Probably got too distracted by the one kept shouting train and train. I enjoyed playing all SP gears. Was the last couch coop I've had and will probably be the last since that gen seem over :(

The games don't do the Locust race any justice either. They constantly portray and treat them like they're some dumb hive mind when that's far from it. The Locust in the games are mostly silent and all they say is one word or phrase such as "Die!", "Boom!" and "For The Queen!".

There is an amazing amount of depth to characters such as General RAAM and Skorge that the games don't show. Before the Locust Wars there was the Lambent Wars in which RAAM was fighting in the front lines of as a drone and later elite guard. RAAM and Skorge formed a sense of camaraderie during their battles to the point they even refer to each other as brother. At one point both of them sneaked up to the surface and observed humanity which at the time was in the Pendulum Wars. RAAM pointed how stupid and self absorbed the humans were in killing each other.

RAAM was the one that came up with the Emergence Day plan not Queen Myrrah. Queen Myrrah and the general at the time Sraak were too focused on fighting the lambent not realizing how dangerous they were but RAAM was smart enough to know that the lambent would win in their current conditions so it would be better to invade the surface so they can increase their chances of surviving and winning. RAAM was able to get the attention of Queen Myrrah by having has team not go to their deployment of the south hollows. RAAM tries to talk to the queen but gets stopped by Sraak who refuses to believe that the Locust are losing to the lambent and claims that RAAM and Skorge are cowards for leaving their positions. RAAM tries to get past him to find the Queen but Sraak beats him to a bloody pulp and he gets carried off by Skore. Queen Myrrah was watching in the shadows and started question Sraak if the hollows were secure and the lambent were losing. Sraak claimed they were but she later learned that wasn't the case. RAAM was also charismatic enough to win over the other Locust troops which is greatly how he became the new general because despite how big and strong he is Sraak was even bigger and stronger than him. Before Emergence Day RAAM, Skorge and Sraak got into a fight to the death, Sraak was easily overpowering RAAM and Skorge and was just about to kill RAAM until he got shot by a soldier from his troop and was then finished off by RAAM. RAAM stating he may be strong but he doesn't have the support of the horde backing him and the soldier that shot Sraak stated they all side with RAAM being in charge. RAAM was also smart enough to eliminate high ranking leaders in the COG to demoralize their soldiers.

Another interesting thing was that the Locust knew that Queen Myrrah wasn't one of them. The reason they follow her though is because they see her as a prophet due to her immunity to imulsion mutation.

Wow. They have so much lore. WTF are they doing with gears. Wish they've gone and presented that this gen akin to Sony's presentation of story BUT with Gear's varienty of enemies.

Damn. I wish people brought that more to their studio. They're probably sitting on something good to present story wise.

That was my impression with the enemies. You're spot on with those 'Die!", "Boom!", etc.

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#9 Posted by Macutchi (6734 posts) -

@NoodleFighter: interesting posts thanks, didn't know much about the backstory to gears. agree it's a shame it wasn't better utilised throughout the series

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#10 Edited by AJStyles (809 posts) -

I don’t think they are capable of creating any depth to their characters even for the men.

The first couple games Dom cries about Maria a bit. One of the guys played football and likes trains. Baird is Cid from Final Fantasy and Marcus is a stereotypical badass.

They never really grew as characters during those first 4/5 games.

As for the new characters? lol. Forgetable. One is Marcus Jr pretty boy and I don’t even remember the females name.

I highly doubt she will grow as a character to someone stronger. I bet she continues being like: “Cash me outside locust let’s fight!”

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#11 Posted by xhawk27 (11271 posts) -

Gears 5 is going to be a lot better than Days Flop, that is for sure.

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#12 Posted by Pedro (34386 posts) -

Gears is one of those games that I just don't get the appeal despite giving 3 of their games a chance.

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#13 Posted by BenjaminBanklin (4568 posts) -

It'll be a good game. I just think they could do better than having Kait be a weepy mess and have her be more assertive. Also, the last game wasn't THIS serious. Lighten up a bit. Either way, I'll play it.

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#14 Posted by Ant_17 (12409 posts) -

It's chunky lara croft.

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#15 Posted by SecretPolice (35235 posts) -

@Sam3231 said:

"Gears of Strange."

"Life is war."

Clever.. Good stuff. :)

OT, not really liking the sound of this. PC/SJW in general needs to die a horrible death. Perhaps use a Chainsaw gun on it. lol :P

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#16 Posted by cainetao11 (36543 posts) -

@NoodleFighter: well said. I love my Gears and Halo extended reading. Thing is writers for books /comics write better than many that write game narrative. I say screw hiring known actors for voice work, spend that money on good writers for games.

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#17 Posted by cainetao11 (36543 posts) -

@BenjaminBanklin: I don’t see how she’s a weepy mess all the way through since nobody has played the game yet

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#18 Posted by WhatAFailure (368 posts) -

Any time I see someone type "SJW" and complain, I know they're a virgin

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#19 Posted by Fedor (4876 posts) -

@whatafailure: Ironically enough, most sjw's are virgins. Just a whole lot of virgins arguing on the internet.

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#20 Posted by Macutchi (6734 posts) -
@cainetao11 said:

@NoodleFighter: well said. I love my Gears and Halo extended reading. Thing is writers for books /comics write better than many that write game narrative. I say screw hiring known actors for voice work, spend that money on good writers for games.

yeah but the money spent on marcus fenix was money well spent. he must've been pretty well known for futurama. it'd be good if the gears games had more back story but it's probably tough to emphasise lore without annoying the part of their market who just want to shoot shit.

@whatafailure said:

Any time I see someone type "SJW" and complain, I know they're a virgin

you've kind of just done that yourself

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#21 Posted by Bread_or_Decide (28994 posts) -

@whatafailure said:

Any time I see someone type "SJW" and complain, I know they're a virgin

Facts.

Avatar image for NoodleFighter
#22 Posted by NoodleFighter (10234 posts) -
@rzxv04 said:

Wow. They have so much lore. WTF are they doing with gears. Wish they've gone and presented that this gen akin to Sony's presentation of story BUT with Gear's varienty of enemies.

Damn. I wish people brought that more to their studio. They're probably sitting on something good to present story wise.

That was my impression with the enemies. You're spot on with those 'Die!", "Boom!", etc.

Hopefully Gears 5 at least goes into the origin of the Locust because at most the series did in the past was with Gears Of War 2 dropping somewhat of a heavy hint with leaving some notes around the New Hope Research facility that imply that the people that mutated from the rustlung disease gave birth to what we know are the Locust and that the facility was holding Queen Myrrah captive at one point. It also likely explains how the Locust found the Research facility. I'm wondering what their intentions of going to place were. Was it to free their ancestors/grandparents the The Sires or gather some info that Myrrah wanted.

From what it sounds like in the Gears 5 trailer Marcus may have told Kait to go to the New Hope Research facility.

@Macutchi said:
@cainetao11 said:

@NoodleFighter: well said. I love my Gears and Halo extended reading. Thing is writers for books /comics write better than many that write game narrative. I say screw hiring known actors for voice work, spend that money on good writers for games.

yeah but the money spent on marcus fenix was money well spent. he must've been pretty well known for futurama. it'd be good if the gears games had more back story but it's probably tough to emphasise lore without annoying the part of their market who just want to shoot shit.

I don't know about that, despite Gears Of War having a dudebro audience Dom's death somehow managed to be one of the most iconic moments in gaming last gen and the most memorable scene from the series. They could at least hire the comic and novel writers as game writer staff. There is still some stuff from the comics and novels that can be used as material for future games. One of the most underutilized potential plot points is why people hate the COG despite them being the only fighting force against the Locust. It's been shown in the games that people would rather survive on their own even near Locust cities underground and lambent infested areas than go to the COG. Hell the COG are corrupt but the games don't show or tell you much why. The Locust exist mainly because of the COG.

They don't even explain why some people don't want to live in the COG settlements or why Marcus doesn't work for them anymore in Gears 4. One little bit in Gears 4 when you're walking through a settlement being built at the beginning of the game and walk through a hospital with posters talking about it being your duty to make kids and letting COG genetically modify your children to their best "optimal" condition. They could have used material from the Gears Of War comic Barren which talked about how the COG essentially turned most women into livestock during the early years of the Locust War due to the Locust wiping out 25% of the human population in a single day alone. They forced women to keep reproducing like cattle in a desperate attempt to keep the human race alive and make more soldiers. The minute a girl turned 14 years of age they'd start trying to impregnate her. They'd even inject them hormones to make them fertile at age 10 if possible. If artificial insemination didn't work they'd use "traditional methods" which was basically rape. The women that were deemed infertile at age 18 were immediately drafted as soldiers. Now that I mention it, the character Alex Brand would probably be a much better female protagonist for the series than Kait.

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#23 Posted by BenjaminBanklin (4568 posts) -
@whatafailure said:

Any time I see someone type "SJW" and complain, I know they're a virgin

So many of these guys are dead ends to their gene pool. "No wimmens in my vidja's".

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#24 Posted by Howmakewood (5857 posts) -
@BenjaminBanklin said:
@whatafailure said:

Any time I see someone type "SJW" and complain, I know they're a virgin

So many of these guys are dead ends to their gene pool. "No wimmens in my vidja's".

women and minorities, gamers worst fears.

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#25 Posted by Blackhairedhero (3235 posts) -

Pretty sure this will probably kill the series. It's sad because GeoW was the best thing Xbox had in my opinion.

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#26 Posted by Blackhairedhero (3235 posts) -

@howmakewood: Really? Because over at resetera they were having a meltdown because the new Star Wars game features a white Male lead.

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#27 Posted by Howmakewood (5857 posts) -

@blackhairedhero: well you see gaf2 is "better" gamers

Avatar image for blackhairedhero
#28 Posted by Blackhairedhero (3235 posts) -

@howmakewood: How is being so overly butthurt and going into a complete rage when you see a white Male lead make you a "better" gamer.?

Avatar image for howmakewood
#29 Posted by Howmakewood (5857 posts) -
@blackhairedhero said:

@howmakewood: How is being so overly butthurt and going into a complete rage when you see a white Male lead make you a "better" gamer.?

that's being progressive

Avatar image for blackhairedhero
#30 Posted by Blackhairedhero (3235 posts) -

@howmakewood: lol not sure if serious.

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#31 Posted by Raining51 (1011 posts) -

They've always been that way.

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#32 Posted by NathanDrakeSwag (12862 posts) -

The original Gears cast was great. Marcus, Dom, Baird, Cole, Carmine, Sam, Anya.

I hated the new cast in Gears 4. They were bland and took themselves too seriously. Its clear the soul was sucked out of the series with Cliffy B no longer involved.

Avatar image for rzxv04
#33 Edited by rzxv04 (686 posts) -

@NoodleFighter said:
@rzxv04 said:

Wow. They have so much lore. WTF are they doing with gears. Wish they've gone and presented that this gen akin to Sony's presentation of story BUT with Gear's varienty of enemies.

Damn. I wish people brought that more to their studio. They're probably sitting on something good to present story wise.

That was my impression with the enemies. You're spot on with those 'Die!", "Boom!", etc.

Hopefully Gears 5 at least goes into the origin of the Locust because at most the series did in the past was with Gears Of War 2 dropping somewhat of a heavy hint with leaving some notes around the New Hope Research facility that imply that the people that mutated from the rustlung disease gave birth to what we know are the Locust and that the facility was holding Queen Myrrah captive at one point. It also likely explains how the Locust found the Research facility. I'm wondering what their intentions of going to place were. Was it to free their ancestors/grandparents the The Sires or gather some info that Myrrah wanted.

From what it sounds like in the Gears 5 trailer Marcus may have told Kait to go to the New Hope Research facility.

@Macutchi said:
@cainetao11 said:

@NoodleFighter: well said. I love my Gears and Halo extended reading. Thing is writers for books /comics write better than many that write game narrative. I say screw hiring known actors for voice work, spend that money on good writers for games.

yeah but the money spent on marcus fenix was money well spent. he must've been pretty well known for futurama. it'd be good if the gears games had more back story but it's probably tough to emphasise lore without annoying the part of their market who just want to shoot shit.

I don't know about that, despite Gears Of War having a dudebro audience Dom's death somehow managed to be one of the most iconic moments in gaming last gen and the most memorable scene from the series. They could at least hire the comic and novel writers as game writer staff. There is still some stuff from the comics and novels that can be used as material for future games. One of the most underutilized potential plot points is why people hate the COG despite them being the only fighting force against the Locust. It's been shown in the games that people would rather survive on their own even near Locust cities underground and lambent infested areas than go to the COG. Hell the COG are corrupt but the games don't show or tell you much why. The Locust exist mainly because of the COG.

They don't even explain why some people don't want to live in the COG settlements or why Marcus doesn't work for them anymore in Gears 4. One little bit in Gears 4 when you're walking through a settlement being built at the beginning of the game and walk through a hospital with posters talking about it being your duty to make kids and letting COG genetically modify your children to their best "optimal" condition. They could have used material from the Gears Of War comic Barren which talked about how the COG essentially turned most women into livestock during the early years of the Locust War due to the Locust wiping out 25% of the human population in a single day alone. They forced women to keep reproducing like cattle in a desperate attempt to keep the human race alive and make more soldiers. The minute a girl turned 14 years of age they'd start trying to impregnate her. They'd even inject them hormones to make them fertile at age 10 if possible. If artificial insemination didn't work they'd use "traditional methods" which was basically rape. The women that were deemed infertile at age 18 were immediately drafted as soldiers. Now that I mention it, the character Alex Brand would probably be a much better female protagonist for the series than Kait.

Just wow. It's nice to have come across quite knowledgeable on gear's lore. That being said, I'm excited for more gears even if 5 bombs. I seriously have a feeling that next gen gears will finally have a presentation it deserves. That shit sounds awesomely dark with the forced preggo.

Avatar image for faponte13
#34 Posted by faponte13 (50 posts) -

@blackhairedhero: meltdown really? How many agreed, how many disagreed?

One person has a problem and people make it out the be this huge thing.

Avatar image for Macutchi
#35 Edited by Macutchi (6734 posts) -
@NoodleFighter said:
@Macutchi said:

yeah but the money spent on marcus fenix was money well spent. he must've been pretty well known for futurama. it'd be good if the gears games had more back story but it's probably tough to emphasise lore without annoying the part of their market who just want to shoot shit.

I don't know about that, despite Gears Of War having a dudebro audience Dom's death somehow managed to be one of the most iconic moments in gaming last gen and the most memorable scene from the series. They could at least hire the comic and novel writers as game writer staff. There is still some stuff from the comics and novels that can be used as material for future games. One of the most underutilized potential plot points is why people hate the COG despite them being the only fighting force against the Locust. It's been shown in the games that people would rather survive on their own even near Locust cities underground and lambent infested areas than go to the COG. Hell the COG are corrupt but the games don't show or tell you much why. The Locust exist mainly because of the COG.

They don't even explain why some people don't want to live in the COG settlements or why Marcus doesn't work for them anymore in Gears 4. One little bit in Gears 4 when you're walking through a settlement being built at the beginning of the game and walk through a hospital with posters talking about it being your duty to make kids and letting COG genetically modify your children to their best "optimal" condition. They could have used material from the Gears Of War comic Barren which talked about how the COG essentially turned most women into livestock during the early years of the Locust War due to the Locust wiping out 25% of the human population in a single day alone. They forced women to keep reproducing like cattle in a desperate attempt to keep the human race alive and make more soldiers. The minute a girl turned 14 years of age they'd start trying to impregnate her. They'd even inject them hormones to make them fertile at age 10 if possible. If artificial insemination didn't work they'd use "traditional methods" which was basically rape. The women that were deemed infertile at age 18 were immediately drafted as soldiers. Now that I mention it, the character Alex Brand would probably be a much better female protagonist for the series than Kait.

dom's death didn't require lots of back story or knowledge of lore to make it an iconic moment though. it was all seamlessly interwoven into the action. it was effective through being a rare island of poignant emotion in a sea of ultra machismo and bravado.

the cog backstory is an interesting one but the amount of work needed to portray what you're saying here stands the risk of derailing the straight forward good vs evil storyline, and that ambiguity may have confused things if not delivered well.

little clues through collectables or other subtle means could have helped shine a light on the reason why there was so much dislike for the cog, but it was probably for the best to not build the story path of any of the original trilogy around it. i'd say it'd be more suitable for an off shoot like judgement