What can be done to speed back up the Development of games?

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DarthaPerkinjan

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#1 DarthaPerkinjan
Member since 2005 • 1318 Posts

If I had to point to one thing that makes gaming worse today then what it was 15, 20 years ago it would easily be the big increase in development time of games.

People seem to forget there was just four 4 years from Gran Turismo 1 to Gran Turismo 3.

Just 3 years from Final Fantasy VII to Final Fantasy IX

People keep saying next gen consoles dont have games...the thing is they do have games, they're just stuck in development. If this was the PS1 or PS2 gen Uncharted 4, GT7, FFXV, The Last Guardian, Kingdom Hearts III etc would ALL be out by now. And their sequel would be here in 1-2 years.

Maybe developers need to take a page from No Man's Sky book and look into procedurally generated worlds?

Outsource more work maybe? Turn 10 does this with Forza which has allowed them to stick to a tight 2 year release window with every sequel, and based on review scores quality has suffered very little if at all.

Even Square Enix is outsourcing Final Fantasy VII Remake. Maybe thats the future?

Point is something has to be done. Games take way too long to make these days. I mean Captain America Winter Solider is a quarter billion dollar film and its going from Day 1 of principal photography to in the movie theaters in just 11 months.

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k--m--k

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#2 k--m--k
Member since 2007 • 2799 Posts

I don't mind, games keep piling up on me even with slow development, I have no time to play them all.

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wis3boi

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#3 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

Do me a favor and try actual software development

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thehig1

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#4 thehig1
Member since 2014 • 7537 Posts

I agree it's frustrating the development time of games now a days, you see a title you like announced but then realize it's a few years away

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ConanTheStoner

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#5 ConanTheStoner
Member since 2011 • 23706 Posts

@k--m--k said:

I don't mind, games keep piling up on me even with slow development, I have no time to play them all.

Same here.

But yeah, outsourcing graphics work could go a long way. There is no shortage of talented 3d artists out there starving for jobs. The issue there is consistency though. Even aside from artistic direction, the work has to be technically sound and well optimized.

It can work though. It's already happening and it will only become more common going forward. The group of guys I usually work with are doing just that. We'll jump on for a movie, game, commercial, etc. for a big push when needed. At the core we're only 4 dudes, but we ramp up and down with other artists as necessary.

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gmak2442

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#6  Edited By gmak2442
Member since 2015 • 1089 Posts

@DarthaPerkinjan:

National unity that would bring a lot of module for all studios. Example, a menu maker that could be use by all studio but it would have be make by one studios.

And the menu is just one example, there is many other possibility; is not the 3D engine a bit what I just said?

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DarthaPerkinjan

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#7 DarthaPerkinjan
Member since 2005 • 1318 Posts

The PS4 promised faster development time, but Im not seeing it. None of the big Playstation exclusives like Uncharted or Gran Turismo will be on the machine in the first 24 months. Thats a fail. If development times continue to increase AAA gaming will eventually fizzle out. Assasin's Creed gets a new game out every year by sheer number of people working on it. Thats one way, but it isnt cost efficient.

Maybe DLC is slowing down the development of new games? Maybe too many devs feel the need to 'support' a game with patches and content after its release? If all this DLC truly is content not finished in time for the game's launch, imagine how much time they're putting towards finishing already released games that could be put towards making new ones.

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jg4xchamp

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#8 jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64037 Posts

A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever.

So I'm fine with devs taking their time.

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DarthaPerkinjan

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#9  Edited By DarthaPerkinjan
Member since 2005 • 1318 Posts

@jg4xchamp said:

A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever.

So I'm fine with devs taking their time.

I wish that were true. Driveclub was delayed and look how it turned out at launch. Theres lots of examples. I think the big problem is devs know they can just throw a 3GB day 1 patch out there or fix the game later

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Desmonic

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#10 Desmonic  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 19990 Posts

@jg4xchamp: See Duke Nukem Forever.

:P

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fend_oblivion

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#11 fend_oblivion
Member since 2006 • 6760 Posts

Maybe developers need to take a page from No Man's Sky book and look into procedurally generated worlds?

DarthaPerkinjan

No. Hell no.

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MirkoS77

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#12 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17637 Posts

I think it's important to keep in mind many of the games that take so long are open world, and they are difficult and resouce/time consuming.

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waahahah

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#13 waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

Agile

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DaVillain

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#14  Edited By DaVillain  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 55896 Posts

@Desmonic said:

@jg4xchamp: See Duke Nukem Forever.

:P

Well nobody's perfect these days but Champ still speaks the truth however. And that was just one game to say the lease.

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slaves

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#15 slaves
Member since 2004 • 1443 Posts

Yes all games should be like COD and Assassin's creed and just come out every year

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soulitane

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#16 soulitane
Member since 2010 • 15091 Posts

That opening post is honestly quite dumb. Procedurally generated worlds only work for a small subset of games. Outsourcing has its limits. If you throw too many people at a project, it starts to go down the drain. Also money comes into it, they may not have the funds to outsource for lots of things.

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Gue1

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#17  Edited By Gue1
Member since 2004 • 12171 Posts

the development of new IP's is slow since they have to create all assets from scratch but they can still use the default ones that come with the engine at the expense of sacrificing the uniqueness of the game's art-style. Sequels on the other hand can recycle a bazillion of assets and that's why they always come way quicker, and not to mention that premise, characters and gameplay are already set too.

At the end what slows down the release of games are the graphics. People want better looking games and well, that takes time, especially when those graphics need to be rendered at real-time and not pre-rendered like a pixar movie.

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deactivated-58ce94803a170

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#18  Edited By deactivated-58ce94803a170
Member since 2015 • 8822 Posts

@DarthaPerkinjan: Only way to speed up the development of games i can think of is to reuse old textures from old games or from companies who make and sell textures for a living. They already do this now, its why a lot of games are starting to look kinda the same. A Palm tree you see in Dying Light might be the same Palm Tree you see in Far Cry 5. You wonder why you have less games then you did last gen? Its cause you have less developers. A lot of developers have gone to PC, mobile, tablets etc.

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parkurtommo

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#19  Edited By parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

The only way to do that without compromising on quality and the basic concept is streamlined engines (better engines). This improves slowly but surely. Unreal Engine 4 is already a big improvement.

Even though your post is fucking stupid, outsourcing is quite (unfortunately) popular nowadays. Wanna know who does it the most? Ubisoft. I don't think outsourcing is good, ever.

The main reason why games take so long to develop is purely visual. The creation of levels and assets to fill up these levels literally takes years... It's a grueling, repetitive process and tends to be taken for granted by the majority of inherently ignorant gamers.

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speedfreak48t5p

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#20 speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14411 Posts

Does TC need to be reminded of Batman Arkham Knight on the PC?

/thread

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parkurtommo

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#21 parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

@slaves said:

Yes all games should be like COD and Assassin's creed and just come out every year

You do realize franchises with yearly releases are developed by several studios? They take just as long as any other sequel, 2-3 years.

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slaves

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#22  Edited By slaves
Member since 2004 • 1443 Posts

@parkurtommo said:
@slaves said:

Yes all games should be like COD and Assassin's creed and just come out every year

You do realize franchises with yearly releases are developed by several studios? They take just as long as any other sequel, 2-3 years.

No please tell me how video games work.

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Kusimeka

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#23  Edited By Kusimeka
Member since 2007 • 419 Posts

@wis3boi said:

Do me a favor and try actual software development

What has that got to do with the TC's question?

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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#24 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

@slaves said:
@parkurtommo said:
@slaves said:

Yes all games should be like COD and Assassin's creed and just come out every year

You do realize franchises with yearly releases are developed by several studios? They take just as long as any other sequel, 2-3 years.

No please tell me how video games work.

There are three different studios that make CoD games. When one studio finishes their game the second studio is already two years into developing the next game, and the third studio is one year into theirs. So the games actually take 3 years to make but the development times of the different studios is aligned so that there will be a new game ready each year.

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slaves

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#25 slaves
Member since 2004 • 1443 Posts

@toast_burner said:
@slaves said:
@parkurtommo said:
@slaves said:

Yes all games should be like COD and Assassin's creed and just come out every year

You do realize franchises with yearly releases are developed by several studios? They take just as long as any other sequel, 2-3 years.

No please tell me how video games work.

There are three different studios that make CoD games. When one studio finishes their game the second studio is already two years into developing the next game, and the third studio is one year into theirs. So the games actually take 3 years to make but the development times of the different studios is aligned so that there will be a new game ready each year.

Really

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deactivated-57ad0e5285d73

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#26 deactivated-57ad0e5285d73
Member since 2009 • 21398 Posts

The most realistic answer is buying the games at launch and at full price.

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parkurtommo

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#27  Edited By parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

@slaves said:
@parkurtommo said:
@slaves said:

Yes all games should be like COD and Assassin's creed and just come out every year

You do realize franchises with yearly releases are developed by several studios? They take just as long as any other sequel, 2-3 years.

No please tell me how video games work.

Ok, so you don't realize.

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APiranhaAteMyVa

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#28  Edited By APiranhaAteMyVa
Member since 2011 • 4160 Posts

Keep the gens long like 7-8 years. That allows devs to reuse engines and a single dev team can get at least 2-3 games out a gen, rather than 1 game then a whole engine change and more difficulties once next gen comes a couple years later.

It may not reduce development time a whole lot, but it will keep cost down.

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deactivated-5ebea105efb64

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#29 deactivated-5ebea105efb64
Member since 2013 • 7262 Posts

@wis3boi said:

Do me a favor and try actual software development

I tried. Now I wanna escape. :(

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jg4xchamp

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#30  Edited By jg4xchamp
Member since 2006 • 64037 Posts

@DarthaPerkinjan said:
@jg4xchamp said:

A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever.

So I'm fine with devs taking their time.

I wish that were true. Driveclub was delayed and look how it turned out at launch. Theres lots of examples. I think the big problem is devs know they can just throw a 3GB day 1 patch out there or fix the game later

@Desmonic said:

@jg4xchamp: See Duke Nukem Forever.

:P

An exception to the rule, but not the rule. And the reality is the delays made those the best versions of that game that was going to be made, and they still needed more dev time. It is what it is.

Now let's compare that to rushed games

-Ass Creed Unity - broken

-Battlefield 4 - broken

-Masterchief Collection - broken

-Legend of Korra - not a good game

-The Arkham Knight PC Port - broken

-The Mortal Kombat X PC Port - broken

That's what over the last year? The fact that "patches made them good" tells you that what they really needed was more time in development to iron shit out.

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Desmonic

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#31 Desmonic  Moderator
Member since 2007 • 19990 Posts

Oh, I know. I was just joking around. Another 11 years wouldn't have made that game good lol

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demon-returns

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#32 demon-returns
Member since 2007 • 1451 Posts

There's a lot that goes into making a game that most people will ever realize.... Games for one aren't like movies and films. With games you have to also worry about things like animations, making sure there;s enough memory to execute what you want, and then there's things like voice casting which you don't have to worry about for movies etc.... these are just little things you have to worry about in game development.

Then you also have to worry timing of release..... for all intents and purposes you do NOT wanna release a new IP around major releases like COD and the Assassin's creed of the world etc...

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wis3boi

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#33  Edited By wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

@Kusimeka said:
@wis3boi said:

Do me a favor and try actual software development

What has that got to do with the TC's question?

Everything. Games many years ago could be made fast because there were less 'parts', less to do, not as much tech to be implemented. The more complex your software gets, the longer it takes to get made and fully tested. TC wants games made in a year or less, I don't want mass produced bullshit, we have enough fast food gaming.

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waahahah

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#34  Edited By waahahah
Member since 2014 • 2462 Posts

@demon-returns said:

There's a lot that goes into making a game that most people will ever realize.... Games for one aren't like movies and films. With games you have to also worry about things like animations, making sure there;s enough memory to execute what you want, and then there's things like voice casting which you don't have to worry about for movies etc.... these are just little things you have to worry about in game development.

Then you also have to worry timing of release..... for all intents and purposes you do NOT wanna release a new IP around major releases like COD and the Assassin's creed of the world etc...

You just described pixar development.

There is a lot more to game development, you don't have to worry about woody falling through in a movie. A movie is a lot easier to execute, the animations a developer makes will always happen the same way since it's prerendered. You don't have to worry about character AI or collision detection since you move them around via hard coded animation. People can work on different scenes without really breaking another scene.

Software is kind of funny, the more people on the project does not necessarily mean faster development. Game and software development means some engineers designing mechanics that touch what everyone is doing. This is generally why adding more people isn't always a good thing, it will add more overhead discussing design choices, or making sure people aren't stepping on each others toes.

That and software while extremely popular just doesn't have the same amount of respect. Most people just look at it like, its text it must be easy to change and add features... Its still relatively a new discipline and its changing yearly. It also means letting developers solve problems the right way and not the fast way. It might take 3 weeks to properly solve or implement something but due to a manager panicking over the schedule might force a bad design to save a week and cost the developers months over long term...

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lamprey263

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#35  Edited By lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44503 Posts

Have one awesome game engine development tools with near universal application and easy to use and readily available at a nominal price to developers at large where it's better to utilize that engine than waste time and money developing their own.

Maybe even better it could be free to use in development phase and developers won't be charged until they publish the final game. This could be a great benefit to smaller developers.

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Ballroompirate

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#36 Ballroompirate
Member since 2005 • 26695 Posts

Whoever thinks delaying a game or more development time = a higher quality/better game is an idiot. I'm surprised how quickly people have forgotten those "amazing" games that took 3-11 years to develop

On top of my head

  • Spore
  • Diablo 3
  • Too Human
  • Prey
  • DNF
  • Alan Wake
  • FF13
  • APB

and we're still waiting on FF15 and and The Last Guardian....

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Mr_Huggles_dog

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#37 Mr_Huggles_dog
Member since 2014 • 7805 Posts

YOU GETTING OFF YOUR ASS AND HELPING!!!

LAZY BUM!!!!

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deactivated-57d8401f17c55

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#38 deactivated-57d8401f17c55
Member since 2012 • 7221 Posts

Magic. Actually they should take even more time, patches are not a bad thing but they are when day one patches are common and 3GB patches are not rare. Witcher should've come out near the end of the year.

But y'know, games cost money.

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ConanTheStoner

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#39 ConanTheStoner
Member since 2011 • 23706 Posts

@parkurtommo said:

Even though your post is fucking stupid, outsourcing is quite (unfortunately) popular nowadays. Wanna know who does it the most? Ubisoft. I don't think outsourcing is good, ever.

Bruh, it's good for my pockets and yes, Ubisoft pays well.

Of course I'm a bit biased as my livelihood depends on it, but it's really not as bad as you might think. Truth be told, unless it's a super small time indie dev, nearly every game outsources work.

Blizzard, Capcom, Konami, Tripwire, 2K Games, Rockstar, Square Enix, EA, and yes Ubisoft are just a few of the companies/studios I can think of off the top of my head that my colleagues and I have worked with in recent years. And of course it's not just limited to games, any project that requires a boat load of 3d assets, or a specific skill set, will depend on outside help at some point. It's a norm that is becoming increasingly common.

From a quality standpoint there's rarely ever an issue. Art directors are far more strict on contractors than they are with their in house staff. Don't deliver what they're looking for? Be prepared to fight for your money.

Now if you're talking about the shady politics behind it, the tax breaks, the unstable landscape for many artists looking for a full time gig, then yeah I'll agree there are some problems there.

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HalcyonScarlet

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#40 HalcyonScarlet
Member since 2011 • 13636 Posts

I'd just be happy if we went back to the time when games released to a high quality standard instead of a month of fixes afterwards.

I don't think faster development is what is needed.

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SpinoRaptor24

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#41  Edited By SpinoRaptor24
Member since 2008 • 10316 Posts

Maybe developers should stop wasting so much time and money trying to make every single individual blade of grass look as realistic as possible.

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mems_1224

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#42 mems_1224
Member since 2004 • 56919 Posts

Games are so much bigger and more complex now, if anything games come out too soon. Being able to patch games and add content later is fucking awesome but too many devs rely on it to get their games out faster. Thats how you get games filled with a Shit ton of bugs like witcher 3, Batman, MKX, MCC and Drive club.

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parkurtommo

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#43 parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

@ConanTheStoner said:
@parkurtommo said:

Even though your post is fucking stupid, outsourcing is quite (unfortunately) popular nowadays. Wanna know who does it the most? Ubisoft. I don't think outsourcing is good, ever.

Bruh, it's good for my pockets and yes, Ubisoft pays well.

Of course I'm a bit biased as my livelihood depends on it, but it's really not as bad as you might think. Truth be told, unless it's a super small time indie dev, nearly every game outsources work.

Blizzard, Capcom, Konami, Tripwire, 2K Games, Rockstar, Square Enix, EA, and yes Ubisoft are just a few of the companies/studios I can think of off the top of my head that my colleagues and I have worked with in recent years. And of course it's not just limited to games, any project that requires a boat load of 3d assets, or a specific skill set, will depend on outside help at some point. It's a norm that is becoming increasingly common.

From a quality standpoint there's rarely ever an issue. Art directors are far more strict on contractors than they are with their in house staff. Don't deliver what they're looking for? Be prepared to fight for your money.

Now if you're talking about the shady politics behind it, the tax breaks, the unstable landscape for many artists looking for a full time gig, then yeah I'll agree there are some problems there.

Hey man we're in the same boat actually.

I guess I mostly meant outsourcing to external teams, like for porting... I don't need to tell you what recent game made me think this. :P

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ConanTheStoner

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#44 ConanTheStoner
Member since 2011 • 23706 Posts

@parkurtommo said:

Hey man we're in the same boat actually.

I guess I mostly meant outsourcing to external teams, like for porting... I don't need to tell you what recent game made me think this. :P

Oh derp, sometimes I forget that you're a concept artist lol. Yeah I suppose freelancing is your primary source of income, right? Really cool environments btw man.

And ok, I get what you're saying. I won't pretend to have any knowledge of how outsourced coding, or porting works, but you're right. More often than not an outsourced port can become a shit show. Performance wise, visually, or both. AK is most definitely a painful reminder of that.

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parkurtommo

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#45 parkurtommo
Member since 2009 • 28295 Posts

@ConanTheStoner said:
@parkurtommo said:

Hey man we're in the same boat actually.

I guess I mostly meant outsourcing to external teams, like for porting... I don't need to tell you what recent game made me think this. :P

Oh derp, sometimes I forget that you're a concept artist lol. Yeah I suppose freelancing is your primary source of income, right? Really cool environments btw man.

And ok, I get what you're saying. I won't pretend to have any knowledge of how outsourced coding, or porting works, but you're right. More often than not an outsourced port can become a shit show. Performance wise, visually, or both. AK is most definitely a painful reminder of that.

Did you follow the DrawCrowd link or the dA one? I haven't gone to drawcrowd in like a year so all of that stuff is pretty old and crappy :P Don't know why I have it in my sig still. Yeah, concept art and illustration is my main income. Though I'm still a student so I don't have to be treating it like a full time job.

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Ant_17

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#46 Ant_17
Member since 2005 • 13634 Posts

@toast_burner said:
@slaves said:
@parkurtommo said:
@slaves said:

Yes all games should be like COD and Assassin's creed and just come out every year

You do realize franchises with yearly releases are developed by several studios? They take just as long as any other sequel, 2-3 years.

No please tell me how video games work.

There are three different studios that make CoD games. When one studio finishes their game the second studio is already two years into developing the next game, and the third studio is one year into theirs. So the games actually take 3 years to make but the development times of the different studios is aligned so that there will be a new game ready each year.

I think just proves how slow they are.

3 studios working to release a game yearly.

Forza needs 2 studios to release Forza yearly.

2 studios for COD and 1 for Forza can go and make a 3 new IP games , but no we need yearly games.

I remember back in the PS1/N64 days only sports games where like this.

But here's the thing , i dont blame Activision or Ms for this.

Its really expensive and risky to make new games and get the money spent on the dev. back.

I blame how fast gaming has evolved.

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tushar172787

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#47 tushar172787
Member since 2015 • 2561 Posts

@speedfreak48t5p said:

Does TC need to be reminded of Batman Arkham Knight on the PC?

/thread

don't you have anything else to do other than bashing threads? /speedfreak

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Kusimeka

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#48 Kusimeka
Member since 2007 • 419 Posts

@wis3boi said:
@Kusimeka said:
@wis3boi said:

Do me a favor and try actual software development

What has that got to do with the TC's question?

Everything. Games many years ago could be made fast because there were less 'parts', less to do, not as much tech to be implemented. The more complex your software gets, the longer it takes to get made and fully tested. TC wants games made in a year or less, I don't want mass produced bullshit, we have enough fast food gaming.

That is a very similar point to one he was making, no? Hence why your post was pointless. Software is more complex now, but as a result, development times are too long. How can we improve development times? Can we improve development times? That's what he wanted to discuss. Perhaps you can do us all a favour and answer those questions for us?

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so_hai

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#49  Edited By so_hai
Member since 2007 • 4385 Posts

I think there's too may games anyway, so a longer gestation period would suit me.

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#50  Edited By wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

@Kusimeka said:
@wis3boi said:
@Kusimeka said:
@wis3boi said:

Do me a favor and try actual software development

What has that got to do with the TC's question?

Everything. Games many years ago could be made fast because there were less 'parts', less to do, not as much tech to be implemented. The more complex your software gets, the longer it takes to get made and fully tested. TC wants games made in a year or less, I don't want mass produced bullshit, we have enough fast food gaming.

That is a very similar point to one he was making, no? Hence why your post was pointless. Software is more complex now, but as a result, development times are too long. How can we improve development times? Can we improve development times? That's what he wanted to discuss. Perhaps you can do us all a favour and answer those questions for us?

I did answer already. Dev time isnt taking too long, if anything it's too fast. We see garbage spewed out by AAA devs year after year. Those who take their sweet time can eventually craft an amazing product and it shows they care. However you have the likes of CoD and AC and sports games with no innovation, poor construction, and just a shiny coat of paint because they have no time for anything else, they want it out the door fast to scoop up the cash on day one for the masses who eat it up. I dont own consoles however, so I'm not the one starved for content waiting for games to release.

At my IT office we have saying: "My work is good, fast, and cheap. Please pick two."