Think Digital Foundry is the bastion of credibility? Think again.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-df-retro-the-need-for-speed

(I have included both their article, video and also my personal video showing this misinformation in action)

For their retro series they recently did a video entirely about Road & Track Presents: The Need for Speed, in this video they discuss and compare different system features and attributes to the game on each respective platform. During their article and video they make it abundantly clear that the only version of the game with music while you're racing is the PlayStation version, they denote that the PC, 3DO and Saturn versions do not have this feature.

They also go on to state that the Saturn version of the game does not have functioning instruments which are present in the PlayStation, 3DO and PC version of the game. Well, this is also patently false, the Saturn version not only has music while you're racing, it has fully functioning gauges as well just like all of the other versions of the game. How something this big could make its way through from a site like this is completely beyond me. If misinformation like this can make its way through so easily, what else are they reporting which is false? That's mainly the point behind this.

These guys probably emulated the game for Saturn and these things "missing" from the Saturn version were likely emulation anomalies, they don't even know what they're talking about yet people blindly trust everything they say.

I only caught this because of my intimate knowledge of these games, how many other things are they reporting that are completely misleading or swaying opinions about specific versions of a game that so happen to be incorrect?

Digital Foundry said:

Another noticeable difference lies in the audio - the PlayStation version offers players the chance to enjoy music while racing (something not possible on any other version). With a great blend of rock and electronic music, the pounding soundtrack helps bring the game to life in a big way.

This is false.

Digital Foundry said:

While the Saturn and PlayStation conversions were very similar, there are several differences to point out here. For one thing, when using the cockpit view, Sega's console is lacking working instruments - a feature that is present in every other version of the game.

This is false.

Eh. No one cares. DF is fun to watch. Nothing more.

Gasp how dare human beings be wrong about something!?

Hard hitting reporting.

They are a video game technology website and the entire premise of what they do is stringent on being 100% credible and correct, it's the only thing that gives their content value. Things like this popping up damages their credibility, therefore enters doubt into the fray of what they report and how well what they say can be trusted.

Also, if they are emulating games for the means of comparison, this also yet again damages their credibility.

They always bash the Xbox One. Of course they are wrong.

O snaps, i gots to see this. Hell yeah, rekt them sorry assholes.

There's a difference between making an error versus blantantly lying & being bias. Only one could make them lose their credibility. How many times or games have they "lied" or made a mistake with?

Obviously the Saturn version of the game has these features that they are claiming to be absent, are they emulating the game because they do not posses it? Specific issues in emulation that arise in terms of certain features not working is quite common, that leads me to believe they emulated this game for Saturn. They even discuss emulating the game for 3DO to get better performance out of it, so even they bring emulation into the fray for their video.

That's the other point, who knows? Who is fact checking these guys? Like I said I only spotted this because I have intimate knowledge of these games and knew that was wrong without having to even load up the game.

I remember this game on PC. It was freakin awesome.

But no, no I don't. I look to them for their frame rate analysis and that's about it.

They're not nearly as knowledgeable as people assume. I do get how they managed to cut out a niche. It used to be embarrassing listening to other reviewers try to talk tech. I remember when a GS reviewer actually said "Too many normal maps" referring to a game once lmao.

So sure, DF is a good cut above your average joe reviewer, but they still say some lulzy shit at times. Not saying they're "teh biased!", they just speak out of their depth at times. Which is understandable, the amount of specialists they'd have to keep on payroll to be accurate at all times wouldn't exactly be reasonable. And if they ever did assemble a team like that, then they might as well start making games lol.

It is a great game, very unique.

@ConanTheStoner said:

But no, no I don't. I look to them for their frame rate analysis and that's about it.

They're not nearly as knowledgeable as people assume. I do get how they managed to cut out a niche. It used to be embarrassing listening to other reviewers try to talk tech. I remember when a GS reviewer actually said "Too many normal maps" referring to a game once lmao.

So sure, DF is a good cut above your average joe reviewer, but they still say some lulzy shit at times. Not saying they're "teh biased!", they just speak out of their depth at times. Which is understandable, the amount of specialists they'd have to keep on payroll to be accurate at all times wouldn't exactly be reasonable. And if they ever did assemble a team like that, then they might as well start making games lol.

Yeah, and no one questions it because the average joe is less aware of things than them so they speak to a crowd that in general can't refute what they're saying.

At least we don't have to worry about these errors in new games, since they won't be emulated.

You have the US version and maybe the one without music is the Pal version remember DF is a European site,and there are many games even more on the old days with variations by region.

Think this thread is a bastion of credibility? Think again.

Another user highlighted that the PAL version of the game retains both the music and functioning instruments.

Thanks for this breaking news, never gonna believe those lying bastards again, I dare they flat out lie about 20 year old games, HOW THE HELL COULD THEY!?!??!

What does the games age have anything to do with their credibility and incorrect analysis of it? Absolutely nothing, I will never understand why people like you feel the need to deflect for third party's and diminish them being wrong. Being wrong is being wrong, and given the scope of what they do and how they are the most praised firm for video game analysis, this is a big deal regardless of your puzzling intervention to defend them.

The entire function of what they do is to be correct in their analysis and report facts, if they're incorrect, and they're reporting things that are not facts then they are ineffective at doing their job for the community and misleading people. If they're wrong about this, and trust that this is not something small to be wrong about, what else are they wrong about that people have not questioned?

When you're wrong you lose credibility, not to mention the strong suspicion that they're emulating games for analysis, that opens a much larger can of worms.

how come other sites have reported the "no music" thing as well? Were there different revisions muddying the picture?

http://electronmagazine.com/the-one-that-started-it-all-road-and-track-presents-the-need-for-speed/

Just to be clear, when they release their videos showing how games on Scorpio are clearly superior to PSPro, we should ignore it, right?

Every site is biased against anything that isn't PlayStation. Clearly.

@Chutebox: lol, you know him.

I've owned three copies of the Saturn version over the years in addition to my launch copy and I've never encountered a version lacking the aforementioned. I purchased it at launch brand new in 1996 and this was simply not a thing, so if it was not a launch issue there definitely was not a random revision working in the opposite capacity removing things such as music and functioning instruments from the game, that wouldn't even make sense, not to mention the Saturn being killed off so the game likely only had one printed run.

The only possible thing I could think of aside from emulation anomalies would be some type of glitch that these guys are experiencing yet in my countless hours of play have not once ever seen, also bear in mind I've played this game at length on both a Model 1 and Model 2 Sega Saturn.

I'm pretty sure the game developers would be one of the ones fact checking. And I'm pretty sure DF would have been called out for it especially if this have been happening since the Saturn days. But clearly that is not the case.

Credibility isn't lost over a single mistake... and if they rectify the issue with an update its completely fine. Not to mention their other analysis videos are observations on game engines much of the time so its not a perfect system and there will always be some facts alongside guessing about game engines.

@ConanTheStoner said:

But no, no I don't. I look to them for their frame rate analysis and that's about it.

They're not nearly as knowledgeable as people assume. I do get how they managed to cut out a niche. It used to be embarrassing listening to other reviewers try to talk tech. I remember when a GS reviewer actually said "Too many normal maps" referring to a game once lmao.

So sure, DF is a good cut above your average joe reviewer, but they still say some lulzy shit at times. Not saying they're "teh biased!", they just speak out of their depth at times. Which is understandable, the amount of specialists they'd have to keep on payroll to be accurate at all times wouldn't exactly be reasonable. And if they ever did assemble a team like that, then they might as well start making games lol.

I like that they also cover old ass games many people haven't heard of. There MDK retrospective as well as the (largely forgotten) Saturn version of Quake was pretty dam good.

And how would that work exactly? Who would call them out? What major gaming media outlet would do this to get it on a wider stage?

Do you see what is being said here going beyond the scope of this thread and this tiny community here? No, do you think most people possess the knowledge or information to contradict them? No, so you're likely to not hear about these things from most people and in most places, and frankly most people who do have it figured out probably wouldn't exude the effort to bring it up in some type of fact conducive capacity where they can prove what they're saying is correct without a shadow of a doubt and that what Digital Foundry is saying is incorrect.

I mean let's be real here, I'm one guy, a random person on the internet, I do not have the capability to call them out in a place beyond the scope of here and have it actually matter, they're too big.

Try a little realism next time, this is about forming a dialog, I've just proved that they are wrong about two things in a single video, what about other things in other videos?

P.S. Also what has been happening since the Saturn days? Their article is from a month ago and that other one is from 2014, 18 and 20 years after the game released...

It's not a single mistake, it's two mistakes in a single video that disparage a product as inferior as compared to another platform version based upon something that isn't true, and the only reason you are even aware of this is because I knew it was wrong from the onset and pointed it out. How many other times have they been wrong but no one knew the facts to contradict what they're saying? How many videos has a person left a comment on Youtube highlighting that they're wrong about something that simply gets buried in the shit posting? Or a person who called them out did it somewhere else that we're not aware of and it never got traction beyond that, or rather they simply didn't bring it up?

Hell even Conan went after them like a week back for using the terminology "4K Assets" which is not something that even exists according to him in the development community, and he knows this because he is specifically in the industry working on games, they just analyze games. It's easy to sound educated about something when you're saying things beyond the scope of understanding for the average person, and they're not able to dispel it as false.

More so than pointing out that they are wrong (which they are) this is about people just accepting things at face value and accepting what they see and hear as fact without questioning it, people need to start questioning things more regardless if it comes from an authoritarian figure or not.

Everyone can be wrong, How many people have been wrong? Who knows, thats why the scientific method isn't about someone proving fact, its about a large number of people being able to reproduce and reinforce/refute something. Thats one of those things that most people don't understand, studies and observations aren't inherently correct or conclusions drawn from the data may be wrong.

Have you considered that maybe their copy is different than yours and they aren't actually wrong with the resources they have? No? You realize you may be wrong in your assumptions that they are wrong based on incomplete information?

also I don't see what the problem is with 4k assets. They aren't describing the assets as being 4k, they are describing assets that are higher quality to support 4k.

Yeah, if they're using emulation to make cross-platform comparisons then their methodology is flawed.

However, seeing as this issue could only have occured with emulation it's also an issue that would only affect their retrospectives (which are more entertainment pieces than strict fact-checking exercises).

As such, while you have a point, I don't see how it translates into reasonable doubt of their credibility for their main output (comparison and technical breakdown of modern releases).

You could simply email them with video proof and they'll likely issue a new statement on the matter.

Me or you being wrong is not the same as a place like Digital Foundry being wrong, we are just people, hobbyists, what they do is their job, it's their career, their employment. How exactly could their copy be different than mine if there are no revisions? It's not like the code is changed, it's static and printed onto the disc.

The problem with "4K Assets" is according to an industry professional who does the work, it's not actually something that exists, it's a buzzword to fill in a blank because they don't think people can understand a real explanation.

@manticored:

Doesn't change the fact Scorpio has more effective memory bandwidth than R9-390X, R9-290X, RX-580, RX-480, PS4 Pro and 'etc'.

Notice R9-290 at 4.8 TFLOPS rivaling RX-480 with 5.8 TFLOPS and RX-580 with 6.17 TFLOPS which shows Polaris 10 GPUs are being bottle-necked by memory bandwidth.

Scale effective bandwidth on RX-580's 28 fps from 256 GB/s to 341 GB/s**, it lands on GTX 1070 class results. From DF, Scorpio's Forza 6 wet track demo has shown GTX 1070 and Fury X class results.

**Physical memory bandwidth x memory system efficiency percent x Polaris DCC factor. Scorpio's 326 GB/s x 0.77 percent efficient x 1.36X = 341 GB/s

For RX Vega, if you double physical memory bandwidth from RX-580's 256 GB/s and 28 fps result, it lands on GTX 1080 Ti range.

Don't bring this nonsense up in here, it has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, the point being made about that comment went over your head ron, this is not the place for whatever it is that you do when you post.

I can now without a shadow of a doubt confirm that they did in fact emulate the game for Saturn, the track line in the HUD radar which shows the course cannot be disabled, however it's absent just like the music and functioning instruments.

They emulated it, I don't care what anyone says, this completely erodes their journalistic and analytical integrity. They're using emulators and roms to test their games and report their findings to the public as if they ran it on the machines itself, that is intent and blatant dishonesty, not to mention illegal and they're profiting from it via ad revenue.

Getting.something wrong is a far cry from having a Xbox agenda. They had no problem exposing the Xbone's lacking hardware, and rightfully so.

The Scorpio is impressive hardware, but the platform has more problems than just the sum of it's hardware parts.

Emulation is not illegal if they own the console and the game, which i don't think you have a proof of contrary.

Get off your high horse, my friend.

I can come up with several reasons for why emulating it was easier than recording a direct feed for the sake of the video.

But i mean, it's gotta be an agenda right? The fuckers were paid to put them Saturn sales down, man.

This isn't getting something wrong or making a simple honest mistake, it's not even a mistake. I've more than demonstratively proven that they are in fact emulating the game and using roms for their retrospective game analysis. They're so ignorant to the game they're playing and analyzing that they think it is missing elements that are on the other platforms but the reality is it's failed emulation not drawing these "missing" systems into functionality. That not only completely crushes their journalistic and analytical integrity, it completely nullifies the results of what they're posting as the game isn't even running on the system it's supposed to be an analysis of, and is quite illegal on top of that as well plus they're making money from it via YouTube.

If they owned the console and the game they would have analysed the game on the console, direct feed capture and a framerate counter.

Uh, guy. DF is a shill site. Do you know what a shill is? Pointless thread.

@manticored: fair enough. I need to get a Saturn alongside my DC one of these days

Oh man you're missing out on so many good games, especially the Japanese ones.

There's a lot of really neat gems, especially when it comes to 2D.

You can't fool me. Discrediting DF has an impact for Scorpio's reveal.

That's some wild tinfoil hat conspiracy if I've ever seen one, I'm talking about a 20 year old game here and an analysis of it and you're going on about the implications this has for a console that hasn't even released yet?

Also, if they're wrong it's because they're doing something wrong, don't blame me for catching them with their pants down, slow your roll man...

@manticored:

From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvwreqnAFDM

Some differences with the cockpit's lighting.

@ronvalencia said:

@manticored:

From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvwreqnAFDM

Some differences with the cockpit's lighting.

That's not a difference with the cockpit lighting, that is a well documented and fundamental difference for the scene lighting inside of tunnels, PlayStation has a different illumination effect... I'm completely aware of this.

What's your point ron?

I never did get an answer lol

@manticored said:

@ronvalencia said:

@manticored:

From https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvwreqnAFDM

Some differences with the cockpit's lighting.

That's not a difference with the cockpit lighting, that is a well documented and fundamental difference for the scene lighting inside of tunnels, PlayStation has a different illumination effect... I'm completely aware of this.

What's your point ron?

The tunnels are at similar progression point on the same track.

Tunnel's illumination effect difference has affected the cockpit lighting. Saturn has lower frame rate than PS1 and may not have additional performance head room for additional illumination effect pass.

Your topic is "Think Digital Foundry is the bastion of credibility? Think again".

To double check DF's claims, I used Battlefield 1 and FarCry Primal results, scale the memory bandwidth from RX-480/RX-580 and making sure it's memory bandwidth bound by using R9-290 4.8 TFLOPS as a reference point.

I own R9-290, R9-290X and R9-390X.

So? I'm failing to understand the relevance this has to anything else, this effect being present or not is not being contested, Saturn doesn't have it.

@manticored: yeah I've wanted one for a while to finish off my Sega "must-haves" - but I just haven't gotten around to it

I'll let you know, make sure your wallet is ready, this is hands down one of the most expensive systems to buy games for.

You are contesting "Think Digital Foundry is the bastion of credibility? Think again". I posted cockpit difference via missing illumination effect pass on the Saturn which is a larger difference than the missing speedometer bug.

To double check DF's Forza claims, I used Battlefield 1 and FarCry Primal results, scale the memory bandwidth from RX-480 (5.83 TFLOPS)/RX-580 (6.17 TFLOPS) and making sure it's memory bandwidth bound by using R9-290 4.8 TFLOPS as a reference point.

I own R9-290 (dead), R9-290X and R9-390X. I know what R9-390X can and can't do.