The Problem With Wii Third Parties

System Warriors here, and in other places, often cry out that third party games dont sell well, and that this is somehow the fault of Nintendo, the "Wii demographic" or some other assumption that always fails to take into account the actual software itself. The fact of the matter is that third parties have failed to make AAA budget, quality software in genres that appeal to a mainstream audience - the kind of people that make up the bulk of software sales on the PS3 and 360.

Now you may misunderstand me at this point; I am not talking about scores recieved here or anywhere else. Certain third party games have recieved cult status, and critical acclaim in many sources. My point is relevancy.

In terms of quality, though, many third party Wii games fall short of expectations. Developers often complain of competition with Nintendo, but even on the GameCube, offerrings were better than on the Wii; there was software that held its own against Nintendo's best, which created a rich and diverse library of interesting titles.

For the sake of comparison:

Gamecube

Metroid Prime

The Wind Waker and Four Swords Adventure

SSB Melee

Pikmin 1 and 2

F-Zero GX

Mario Kart Double Dash

Fire Emblem

Animal Crossing

Donkey Kong Jungle Beat

Competing with the likes of:

Resident Evil series

Madden

Soul Calibur II

Viewtiful Joe

Eternal Darkness

SSX

Prince of Persia: Sands of Time Trilogy

Burnout

Timesplitters

Beyond Good and Evil

Super Monkey Ball

Tales of Symphonia

Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes

The Sims

This is good third party comparison. With the Wii, on the other hand, you have Nintendo's staple franchises competing with the likes of

Okami, a PS2 port.

A Boy and His Blob, a 2D platform puzzler.

Resident Evil 4, a port.

No More Heroes, a deliberately satiricle piece of software with a deliberately poor overworld and retro graphics.

Muramasa, another sidescroller.

Zack and Wiki, the very definition of a game with an identity crisis; a difficult Japanese point and click adventure game with childish dressings.

deBlob, a niche musical platformer.

MadWorld, a short bralwer with over the top violence, repetetive gameplay and annoying announcers.

Umbrella / Darkside chronicles, on rails RE spin offs.

Dead Space extraction, another on rails shooter from an IP that wasnt.

Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, a game where the majority of the Western population doesnt know the second half of the cast.

Games that did well on the Cube have lost their appeal on the Wii, such as Madden.

However good, these games cannot compete with the third party offerings on the Cube. They are not mainstream enough, they dont have the same marketing and they simply dont have the same level of polish.

My point is, the next time you criticise Nintendo for the third party situation on the Wii, you might want to think about who is really at fault for the poor sales. If a machine like the GameCube can consistently play host to a variety of core, mainstream content, then there is really no reason why the Wii cannot either.

All that is left is excuses.

reserved

eveileb-ekam

Hey I agree with you OP.

[QUOTE="eveileb-ekam"]

reserved

Dibdibdobdobo

Most of the 3rd party GCN games are multiplat, and it's not so easy to port games to Wii from the HD twins. Also, I think Eternal Darkness is first party.

Its Wii Turd Partiesraskullibur

I don't blame Nintendo for it, but I do blame the Wii for it.locopatho

Gamecube

Metroid Prime

The Wind Waker and Four Swords Adventure

SSB Melee

Pikmin 1 and 2

F-Zero GX

Mario Kart Double Dash

Fire Emblem

Animal Crossing

Donkey Kong Jungle Beat

Competing with the likes of:

Resident Evil series

Madden

Soul Calibur II

Viewtiful Joe

Eternal Darkness

SSX

Prince of Persia: Sands of Time Trilogy

Burnout

Timesplitters

Beyond Good and Evil

Super Monkey Ball

Tales of Symphonia

Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes

The Sims

This is good third party comparison. With the Wii, on the other hand, you have Nintendo's staple franchises competing with the likes of

Okami, a PS2 port.

A Boy and His Blob, a 2D platform puzzler.

Resident Evil 4, a port.

No More Heroes, a deliberately satiricle piece of software with a deliberately poor overworld and retro graphics.

Muramasa, another sidescroller.

Zack and Wiki, the very definition of a game with an identity crisis; a difficult Japanese point and click adventure game with childish dressings.

deBlob, a niche musical platformer.

MadWorld, a short bralwer with over the top violence, repetetive gameplay and annoying announcers.

Umbrella / Darkside chronicles, on rails RE spin offs.

Dead Space extraction, another on rails shooter from an IP that wasnt.

Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, a game where the majority of the Western population doesnt know the second half of the cast.

Games that did well on the Cube have lost their appeal on the Wii, such as Madden.

However good, these games cannot compete with the third party offerings on the Cube. They are not mainstream enough, they dont have the same marketing and they simply dont have the same level of polish.

My point is, the next time you criticise Nintendo for the third party situation on the Wii, you might want to think about who is really at fault for the poor sales. If a machine like the GameCube can consistently play host to a variety of core, mainstream content, then there is really no reason why the Wii cannot either.

All that is left is excuses.

eveileb-ekam

reserved

[QUOTE="locopatho"]I don't blame Nintendo for it, but I do blame the Wii for it.eveileb-ekam

You wanna know why the Cube got more 3rd party love? Because it was of comprable power with its peers and had a comprable control scheme. This time aroun their is a huge gap in specs and the wii is simply too different on the control front for easy porting. Not to mention the install base nintendo has created is extremely unpredictable because its made up mostly of people who don't know much about video gamesand can't tell quality from crap.

Yea but they've still made a AA games which would have sold much better on ps3/360. Anyway why should they make good games for Wii, it's 8 year old hardware limits their creativity.LiquidSnake1001

You wanna know why the Cube got more 3rd party love? Because it was of comprable power with its peers and had a comprable control scheme. This time aroun their is a huge gap in specs and the wii is simply too different on the control front for easy porting. Not to mention the install base nintendo has created is extremely unpredictable because its made up mostly of people who don't know much about video gamesand can't tell quality from crap.

TheGrat1

[QUOTE="TheGrat1"]

You wanna know why the Cube got more 3rd party love? Because it was of comprable power with its peers and had a comprable control scheme. This time aroun their is a huge gap in specs and the wii is simply too different on the control front for easy porting. Not to mention the install base nintendo has created is extremely unpredictable because its made up mostly of people who don't know much about video gamesand can't tell quality from crap.

eveileb-ekam

Nintendo caused a lot of this themselves though, I recall them criticising Sega for thier work on F-Zero GX which was a superb game, they should have been branching out this gen and encouraging third parties to work with them not expecting them to just because they have the largest install base.

Nintendo caused a lot of this themselves though, I recall them criticising Sega for thier work on F-Zero GX which was a superb game, they should have been branching out this gen and encouraging third parties to work with them not expecting them to just because they have the largest install base.

SapSacPrime

Nintendo caused a lot of this themselves though, I recall them criticising Sega for thier work on F-Zero GX which was a superb game, they should have been branching out this gen and encouraging third parties to work with them not expecting them to just because they have the largest install base.

Difference is GC was the second most powerful console and could get multiplat games, while the wii can't even get 90% of the multiplats on the PS/360/PC. All nintendo had to do was make their console powerful enough to do this, the PS2 of the generation, instead they made a slim Gamecube...

Nintendo caused a lot of this themselves though, I recall them criticising Sega for thier work on F-Zero GX which was a superb game, they should have been branching out this gen and encouraging third parties to work with them not expecting them to just because they have the largest install base.

Difference is GC was the second most powerful console and could get multiplat games, while the wii can't even get 90% of the multiplats on the PS/360/PC. All nintendo had to do was make their console powerful enough to do this, the PS2 of the generation, instead they made a slim Gamecube...

Espada12

[QUOTE="Pices"][QUOTE="tomarlyn"] Really? F-Zero GX is better than any Mario Karttomarlyn

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

Difference is GC was the second most powerful console and could get multiplat games, while the wii can't even get 90% of the multiplats on the PS/360/PC. All nintendo had to do was make their console powerful enough to do this, the PS2 of the generation, instead they made a slim Gamecube...

Pices

Yes I am serious about the GC slim the other consoles are so far in power that the wii is borderline last gen and the wii doing HD would not have in anyway affected gameplay simply because MS and sony are doing the same motion thing with HD consoles and it's working fine from what we have seen.

[QUOTE="Pices"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Difference is GC was the second most powerful console and could get multiplat games, while the wii can't even get 90% of the multiplats on the PS/360/PC. All nintendo had to do was make their console powerful enough to do this, the PS2 of the generation, instead they made a slim Gamecube...

Yes I am serious about the GC slim the other consoles are so far in power that the wii is borderline last gen and the wii doing HD would not have in anyway affected gameplay simply because MS and sony are doing the same motion thing with HD consoles and it's working fine from what we have seen.

Difference is GC was the second most powerful console and could get multiplat games, while the wii can't even get 90% of the multiplats on the PS/360/PC. All nintendo had to do was make their console powerful enough to do this, the PS2 of the generation, instead they made a slim Gamecube...

Espada12

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

[QUOTE="Pices"] Nintendo is about innovation and gameplay, not raw power and HD. They don't follow Sony and MS. If they made the Wii capable of doing HD, then it wouldn't have been like it is today. GC slim? Please tell me that you're not serious.Pices

Yes I am serious about the GC slim the other consoles are so far in power that the wii is borderline last gen and the wii doing HD would not have in anyway affected gameplay simply because MS and sony are doing the same motion thing with HD consoles and it's working fine from what we have seen.

The hardware was also a part of it, fact is it's hardware while not the strongest, could play almost all the titles during that gen. I call it a GC slim because again we have to compare it to the GC and xbox, it belongs in that gen not this one. Also I don't see how improving gameplay has to do with visuals, nintendo was only thinking how to get through this gen as cheap as possible it just so happened the wii was a hit. The wii's power output makes everything cheaper for nintendo, it lowers dev costs, dev time, media costs (lawl a dvd), hardware costs etc etc, I aint asking for much, just be on the same level of the other consoles even though you maybe the weakest. So i'll ask a question, how does HD graphics affect gameplay?

[QUOTE="Espada12"]

Difference is GC was the second most powerful console and could get multiplat games, while the wii can't even get 90% of the multiplats on the PS/360/PC. All nintendo had to do was make their console powerful enough to do this, the PS2 of the generation, instead they made a slim Gamecube...

eveileb-ekam

It's simply because they don't believe those titles would sell on the wii or because they believe the hassle of porting down the game and then making it motion compatible is just too much, especially considering the games aren't made with motion controls in mind, the might have to simply make a new game which is what they don't want to do.

Here's the thing, had the wii been given enough power in the first place these things would be a non issue.

Nintendo caused a lot of this themselves though, I recall them criticising Sega for thier work on F-Zero GX which was a superb game, they should have been branching out this gen and encouraging third parties to work with them not expecting them to just because they have the largest install base.

There is one reason why third parties shun the Wii, and not as badly shunned the cube: POWER.

Humans are a VERY visual race, thus pretty graphics seem to influence us so heavily. There is NO way around it. Devs are only thinking of the raw power of the console; if the Wii matched the HD twins in hardware, it would be a different story.

[QUOTE="eveileb-ekam"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Difference is GC was the second most powerful console and could get multiplat games, while the wii can't even get 90% of the multiplats on the PS/360/PC. All nintendo had to do was make their console powerful enough to do this, the PS2 of the generation, instead they made a slim Gamecube...

Espada12

It's simply because they don't believe those titles would sell on the wii or because they believe the hassle of porting down the game and then making it motion compatible is just too much, especially considering the games aren't made with motion controls in mind, the might have to simply make a new game which is what they don't want to do.

Another example:

Resident Evil 4 sold incredibly well for a last gen port with updated controls. It proved there was a market for exactly that type of game, and was nice and easy to produce for Capcom.

Would the money spent on developing and publishing Umbrella and Darkside Chronicles be better served, then, in porting Resident Evil 5 to the Wii? It could have shared assets, would probably have been much cheaper to do that those two games, and would probably have piggybacked on the commercial success of the HD twins, minimising the risk.

It's Nintendo's fault, because they released an underpowered machine aimed at the casual market, and multiplatform titles like Arkham Asylum are way out of its league. Developers can't port their A Titles to it, making one from scratch is costly and the new wii demographic is generally not that interested in such titles.

It's the hardware, the new direction, the software. They've made their bed, now they're lying in it.

But they do make new games, they make these low budget niche ones! And if a game like SFIV isnt made with motion control in mind, it certainly isnt made with the iPod touch in mind either. AND the Wii has other input devices which are available to developers, such as the Classic Controller Pro which Monster Hunter 3 utilises so well. I dont see what is so difficult to understand. If a company doesnt believe that core games can sell on the Wii, so doesnt put any games at all on the machine, then that is one thing. If a company doesnt believe that core games can sell on the Wii, but invests money in developing / publishing a niche title in a spin off series / new and fragile IP instead of quickly porting a highly port-able game to the console, what is the cause of that? Capcom cannot and should not complain about sales of Tatsunoko Vs Capcom when they could have better utilised the same resources to port Street Fighter IV to the Wii. This isnt about the games I do or dont want, but about companies making money.eveileb-ekam

I agree that there should be more resources into developing wii games, but the SF4 ipod thing is different, have you seen how it plays? you can leave the basic input commands and stuff as their is a virtual gamepad on the screen. Also I agree they should port main entrys of franchises on to the wii, but to be honest the devs see that as a waste of money probably. It might just be easier to make a cheaper spin off version from scratch.

It's Nintendo's fault, because they released an underpowered machine aimed at the casual market, and multiplatform titles like Arkham Asylum are way out of its league. Developers can't port their A Titles to it, making one from scratch is costly and the new wii demographic is generally not that interested in such titles.

It's the hardware, the new direction, the software. They've made their bed, now they're lying in it.

Chemical_Viking

[QUOTE="eveileb-ekam"]

But they do make new games, they make these low budget niche ones! And if a game like SFIV isnt made with motion control in mind, it certainly isnt made with the iPod touch in mind either. AND the Wii has other input devices which are available to developers, such as the Classic Controller Pro which Monster Hunter 3 utilises so well. I dont see what is so difficult to understand. If a company doesnt believe that core games can sell on the Wii, so doesnt put any games at all on the machine, then that is one thing. If a company doesnt believe that core games can sell on the Wii, but invests money in developing / publishing a niche title in a spin off series / new and fragile IP instead of quickly porting a highly port-able game to the console, what is the cause of that? Capcom cannot and should not complain about sales of Tatsunoko Vs Capcom when they could have better utilised the same resources to port Street Fighter IV to the Wii. This isnt about the games I do or dont want, but about companies making money.Espada12

I agree that there should be more resources into developing wii games, but the SF4 ipod thing is different, have you seen how it plays? you can leave the basic input commands and stuff as their is a virtual gamepad on the screen. Also I agree they should port main entrys of franchises on to the wii, but to be honest the devs see that as a waste of money probably. It might just be easier to make a cheaper spin off version from scratch.

Developers that already release content on the machine should be porting their AAA titles to it rather than creating new and fragile IPs or low quality spin offs.eveileb-ekam

Like I've said, the Wii's hardware prohibits them from doing so. When they try, as they did with Dead Rising, it doesn't work so well. There's no point trying to shove Bioshock 2 on wii. You have to tone down everything. Graphics, enemy numbers, AI, physics, just about everything. They can't bring the AAA titles to wii. They can just about put a rail shooter on there of one of their better franchises.

Would probably cost around the same to do so. The "Wii Demographic" is a ridiculous notion. The market is made of many demographics, each with varying amounts of interest and various degrees of taste. What developers need to do is forget about appealing to the whole, and appeal to their own demographic, the way that films coexist side by side without the tension exhibited in the gaming industry. Besides, Wii gamers have already proved that they are interested in such titles - at the beginning of the lifecycle, they were willing to buy a port of RE4 in their millions.

It's not a ridiculous notion to the developers. Let me tell you a truth you are not going to like: these developers, are in it for the money. If they saw real opportunity in making high cost blockbusting titles on the wii, they would do it. All of them. If one or two are shying away, they might be missing it. If they're all shying away, then that should tell you something.

Nintendo has consistently marketed the wii toward the casual market. Not the supposedly basement dwelling nerds who got them where they are today, old people, fitness freaks, post pub drunks, and the nuclear family. They have released scarce hardcore games, and others have shied away from it too. Some indie developers have tried, admirably. Capcom has tried, and if reports are to be believed, they're giving up, because contrary to what you're saying, the general wii buying public isn't that interested in titles like no more heroes and murumasa. They would be better off spending little development cash on a party game than put all their resources into something big. The sales of deeper titles on the wii recently have been really poor. If the market was really there, there is a gap and people would fill it.

As it stands it makes far more sense to not limit yourself. If you want to bring something out on the ultra competitive HD and PC market, you can't be limited by inferior hardware, so you go all out and bring out a title that pulls out all the stops. If you don't, if you hold yourself back to get it out on the wii, the game will not hold it's own against the competition. All developers can do is put out a weak conversion and why bother if it wont sell?

The wii and third party will always remain distant cousins. Be happy for the Nintendo games, that's why you bought the wii.

[QUOTE="Chemical_Viking"]

It's Nintendo's fault, because they released an underpowered machine aimed at the casual market, and multiplatform titles like Arkham Asylum are way out of its league. Developers can't port their A Titles to it, making one from scratch is costly and the new wii demographic is generally not that interested in such titles.

It's the hardware, the new direction, the software. They've made their bed, now they're lying in it.

eveileb-ekam

It's simply because they don't believe those titles would sell on the wii or because they believe the hassle of porting down the game and then making it motion compatible is just too much, especially considering the games aren't made with motion controls in mind, the might have to simply make a new game which is what they don't want to do.

Here's the thing, had the wii been given enough power in the first place these things would be a non issue.

Espada12

[QUOTE="Pices"][QUOTE="Espada12"]

Yes I am serious about the GC slim the other consoles are so far in power that the wii is borderline last gen and the wii doing HD would not have in anyway affected gameplay simply because MS and sony are doing the same motion thing with HD consoles and it's working fine from what we have seen.

The hardware was also a part of it, fact is it's hardware while not the strongest, could play almost all the titles during that gen. I call it a GC slim because again we have to compare it to the GC and xbox, it belongs in that gen not this one. Also I don't see how improving gameplay has to do with visuals, nintendo was only thinking how to get through this gen as cheap as possible it just so happened the wii was a hit. The wii's power output makes everything cheaper for nintendo, it lowers dev costs, dev time, media costs (lawl a dvd), hardware costs etc etc, I aint asking for much, just be on the same level of the other consoles even though you maybe the weakest. So i'll ask a question, how does HD graphics affect gameplay?

It tells me that companies are stubbornly resistent to change, and have no idea to cater to more than one market at a time. There are a lot of different films in a lot of different genres, aimed at different people. Most of these films make their money back and then some because they target the right people - something the videogame industry is woefully poor at doing. They are good at aiming products at young boys and they are good at aiming them at mainstream men.

Oh, they got them where they are today? Nintendo has been perceived as child friendly and family friendly since they brought the NES out - in Japan the thing was called the Family Computer for crying out loud. The only deviation Nintendo made with their image was with the Nintendo 64, and it brought them to the brink of ruin. Nintendo do so well because they are producing the same content that they have always produced, and people still love it.

The reports you are referring to stated that Capcom was going to stop shovelling Wii projects out of the door, and better spend the resources producing bigger budget games - which is exactly what I am suggesting in this thread. Monster Hunter 3, Dragon Quest 10, Epic Mickey - these are the games that are going to prove my point.

No More Heroes and Muramasa are exactly the kind of niche games that lose companies money. You really think that these games qualify as big AAA releases? This is exactly what I am referrng to. However much I love these games, they would not sell well on any system. Of course no one is interested in them - they arent mainstream!

Conversions do sell - I have proven it by citing Resident Evil 4, a last generation port, the Call of Duty games, Guitar Hero - these are the only mainstream titles to really talk about outside of Nintendo, and they all sold well enough to prove that a market exists that is willing to buy more of these type of games. I would bet anything that if Street Fighter IV, Resident Evil 5 and Modern Warfare 2 (and all the other games of this ilk) were ported to the Wii with at least some sense of effort, then they would sell much more than Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, The Darkside Chronicles and Modern Warfare Reflex.

It tells me that companies are stubbornly resistent to change, and have no idea to cater to more than one market at a time. There are a lot of different films in a lot of different genres, aimed at different people. Most of these films make their money back and then some because they target the right people - something the videogame industry is woefully poor at doing. They are good at aiming products at young boys and they are good at aiming them at mainstream men.

Oh, they got them where they are today? Nintendo has been perceived as child friendly and family friendly since they brought the NES out - in Japan the thing was called the Family Computer for crying out loud. The only deviation Nintendo made with their image was with the Nintendo 64, and it brought them to the brink of ruin. Nintendo do so well because they are producing the same content that they have always produced, and people still love it.

The reports you are referring to stated that Capcom was going to stop shovelling Wii projects out of the door, and better spend the resources producing bigger budget games - which is exactly what I am suggesting in this thread. Monster Hunter 3, Dragon Quest 10, Epic Mickey - these are the games that are going to prove my point.

No More Heroes and Muramasa are exactly the kind of niche games that lose companies money. You really think that these games qualify as big AAA releases? This is exactly what I am referrng to. However much I love these games, they would not sell well on any system. Of course no one is interested in them - they arent mainstream!

Conversions do sell - I have proven it by citing Resident Evil 4, a last generation port, the Call of Duty games, Guitar Hero - these are the only mainstream titles to really talk about outside of Nintendo, and they all sold well enough to prove that a market exists that is willing to buy more of these type of games. I would bet anything that if Street Fighter IV, Resident Evil 5 and Modern Warfare 2 (and all the other games of this ilk) were ported to the Wii with at least some sense of effort, then they would sell much more than Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, The Darkside Chronicles and Modern Warfare Reflex.

eveileb-ekam

[QUOTE="eveileb-ekam"]

It tells me that companies are stubbornly resistent to change, and have no idea to cater to more than one market at a time. There are a lot of different films in a lot of different genres, aimed at different people. Most of these films make their money back and then some because they target the right people - something the videogame industry is woefully poor at doing. They are good at aiming products at young boys and they are good at aiming them at mainstream men.

Oh, they got them where they are today? Nintendo has been perceived as child friendly and family friendly since they brought the NES out - in Japan the thing was called the Family Computer for crying out loud. The only deviation Nintendo made with their image was with the Nintendo 64, and it brought them to the brink of ruin. Nintendo do so well because they are producing the same content that they have always produced, and people still love it.

The reports you are referring to stated that Capcom was going to stop shovelling Wii projects out of the door, and better spend the resources producing bigger budget games - which is exactly what I am suggesting in this thread. Monster Hunter 3, Dragon Quest 10, Epic Mickey - these are the games that are going to prove my point.

No More Heroes and Muramasa are exactly the kind of niche games that lose companies money. You really think that these games qualify as big AAA releases? This is exactly what I am referrng to. However much I love these games, they would not sell well on any system. Of course no one is interested in them - they arent mainstream!

Conversions do sell - I have proven it by citing Resident Evil 4, a last generation port, the Call of Duty games, Guitar Hero - these are the only mainstream titles to really talk about outside of Nintendo, and they all sold well enough to prove that a market exists that is willing to buy more of these type of games. I would bet anything that if Street Fighter IV, Resident Evil 5 and Modern Warfare 2 (and all the other games of this ilk) were ported to the Wii with at least some sense of effort, then they would sell much more than Tatsunoko Vs Capcom, The Darkside Chronicles and Modern Warfare Reflex.

KungfuKitten