The Legend of Zelda, Nintendo Only Makes Masterpieces

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#52 Posted by DarkLink77 (32731 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="WiiCubeM1"]

Well, I haven't played Wind Waker in over 10 years, so I couldn't give you my opinion on it without it being muddled, but Skyward Sword was damn good.

Damn good.

And, just for future reference, that is coming from someone who doesn't enjoy the Zelda games very much.

WiiCubeM1

Man, as soon as I say they aren't masterpieces, people assume I mean they're awful. They're both very good games. But you can't stack up Wind Waker's dungeon design next to, say Twilight Princess', for instance. They're not perfect, and if any Zelda game would heavily benefit from a remake that actually changes the design, it's WInd Waker.

No, no.

I know what you're referring to, but people seem to always assume the dungeon design was best in games like Ocarina, even though it's puzzles were matched and beaten in later games (and, personally, the best dungeon design was Majora's Mask, but it went a little far on occasion).

And, honestly, I thought you hated Twilight. I could have sworn you said that at some point in the past, but I probably just misread a quote.

Nah, Twilight Princess is really good. Best dungeons in the series, man. Best mechanically, too.

Ocarina's dungeon design is good (see: The Forest Temple, Fire Temple, Spirit Temple, Shadow Temple), but there's serious missteps (Water Temple). But Ocarina was a template that has been iterated on over and over and over again. It's a victim of it's own success. Is it still a well-designed game? Hell yes, especially for its time (and it's really important when discussing any work of art to consider when it was made). Ocarina is a masterpiece.

Is it the best Zelda game? No. Iteration has passed it by.

But I agree, Majora's Mask is pretty ace.

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#53 Posted by DerveCreaves (345 posts) -
[QUOTE="RyanShazam"]Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to deliver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one?

Then someone posts the higher rated GTA series and nothing happens.
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#54 Posted by DarkLink77 (32731 posts) -
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

But what about art that is "above criticism" ? ;)

Game design judgement is prone to subjectivity, period.

Of course you can point out some "design flaws" and such, but what is a flaw in one man's eyes is a good thing in another one's.

There simply is no "universal standard" by which games would be rated other than "let's compare this to what already exists" or "do I have fun with it".

BrunoBRS
That is a really terrible series of excuses made by people who don't understand how to objectively critique something.

not really. for example, you hold wind waker's mediocre dungeons to much higher ground than i do. i found them to be just a small part of the game, one that i really don't care about for better or for worse, because they weren't the reason i was playing the game to begin with. you hold the triforce quest as "objectively bad", which it isn't. you see, i see the triforce hunt as the perfect excuse to sail everywhere, charting new lands and uncovering secrets, which is the reason i love wind waker so much. so while you see it as dragging and padding, i see it as the apex of the game's concept, which is the sailing. games can not be judged objectively.

A lot of them can in a lot of ways. You not caring that Wind Waker's dungeon design is mediocre doesn't make it any less mediocre. In that same vein, you liking the sailing in Wind Waker (I love the sailing, too, it's the best part of the game), doesn't change the fact that the Triforce quest absolutely destroys the game's pacing and is the pinnacle of game padding from last gen with no real purpose other than to make the player do something to make up for the fact that they cut two dungeons. Whether you like something is subjective. Whether that thing is well-designed is not.
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#55 Posted by DarkLink77 (32731 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

But what about art that is "above criticism" ? ;)

Game design judgement is prone to subjectivity, period.

Of course you can point out some "design flaws" and such, but what is a flaw in one man's eyes is a good thing in another one's.

There simply is no "universal standard" by which games would be rated other than "let's compare this to what already exists" or "do I have fun with it".

nameless12345

That is a really terrible series of excuses made by people who don't understand how to objectively critique something.

And who exactly has the authority to critique objectively?

Those who played a lot of games?

That alone doesn't make them good reviewers per-se and they are still prone to subjectivity and personal opinions.

Anyone who understands what it means to objectively critique something. It's really not that hard.
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#56 Posted by RyanShazam (6498 posts) -
The thing about the Legend of Zelda is that all of the games are sooooo damn good everyone has a different opinion on which one is the best or worste out of the group of games. Majora's Mask is personally my least favorite but it is still a damn good game and is in my top game list.
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#57 Posted by ConanTheStoner (17152 posts) -

[QUOTE="RyanShazam"]Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to deliver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one? DerveCreaves
Then someone posts the higher rated GTA series and nothing happens.

Its actually not higher rated. Its so close though that its like splitting hairs, so there isnt a point in debate. You're still wrong though.

Besides that, people love the GTA series. Moreso than Zelda on this board, so I dont see your point.

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#58 Posted by Enforcedspot (2915 posts) -
I'm having deja vu. :P
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#59 Posted by RyanShazam (6498 posts) -
[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"][QUOTE="RyanShazam"]Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to deliver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one?

Then someone posts the higher rated GTA series and nothing happens.

Wrong... They are incredibly close but Zelda has GTA beat by a hair.
Avatar image for DarkLink77
#60 Posted by DarkLink77 (32731 posts) -

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"][QUOTE="RyanShazam"]Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to deliver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one? ConanTheStoner

Then someone posts the higher rated GTA series and nothing happens.

Its actually not higher rated. Its so close though that its like splitting hairs, so there isnt a point in debate. You're still wrong though.

Besides that, people love the GTA series. Moreso than Zelda on this board, so I dont see your point.

This. Also no GTA game has a MC rating of 99. And no game will ever get one again, most likely.
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#61 Posted by OB-47 (10909 posts) -

I would hardly call all of them masterpieces.

Maybe OoT and Majora's Mask

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#62 Posted by BrunoBRS (74156 posts) -
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="BrunoBRS"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] That is a really terrible series of excuses made by people who don't understand how to objectively critique something.

not really. for example, you hold wind waker's mediocre dungeons to much higher ground than i do. i found them to be just a small part of the game, one that i really don't care about for better or for worse, because they weren't the reason i was playing the game to begin with. you hold the triforce quest as "objectively bad", which it isn't. you see, i see the triforce hunt as the perfect excuse to sail everywhere, charting new lands and uncovering secrets, which is the reason i love wind waker so much. so while you see it as dragging and padding, i see it as the apex of the game's concept, which is the sailing. games can not be judged objectively.

A lot of them can in a lot of ways. You not caring that Wind Waker's dungeon design is mediocre doesn't make it any less mediocre. In that same vein, you liking the sailing in Wind Waker (I love the sailing, too, it's the best part of the game), doesn't change the fact that the Triforce quest absolutely destroys the game's pacing and is the pinnacle of game padding from last gen with no real purpose other than to make the player do something to make up for the fact that they cut two dungeons. Whether you like something is subjective. Whether that thing is well-designed is not.

you could say "oh, but this part of the game isn't as good", yes. but how much weight does that hold? that's completely subjective. some people can't look past shadow of the colossus' clunky controls, where others embrace it as part of the game's design (because it's symbolizing Wander's struggle as he tries to fight a colossus, it's not supposed to be smooth). so some people say it's objectively bad, while others say it's good. you could say similar things about resident evil's writing. it's horrible by any and all means, but does that mean it's really "bad"? no. the game is purposefully cheesy (well it used to be), and the script is lol-worthy because that's what the writers wanted. same applies to wind waker. i hold little to no weight on the game's quality because of the dungeons, and i disagree with you that the triforce quest broke the pacing. there is no objective way to say how important X part of the game is to the overall experience. do you see what i'm talking about here?
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#63 Posted by DerveCreaves (345 posts) -
[QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"] Then someone posts the higher rated GTA series and nothing happens.DarkLink77

Its actually not higher rated. Its so close though that its like splitting hairs, so there isnt a point in debate. You're still wrong though.

Besides that, people love the GTA series. Moreso than Zelda on this board, so I dont see your point.

This. Also no GTA game has a MC rating of 99. And no game will ever get one again, most likely.

Once WWU comes out then GTA will be higher rated because then we could include remakes.
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#64 Posted by ConanTheStoner (17152 posts) -

[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

Its actually not higher rated. Its so close though that its like splitting hairs, so there isnt a point in debate. You're still wrong though.

Besides that, people love the GTA series. Moreso than Zelda on this board, so I dont see your point.

DerveCreaves

This. Also no GTA game has a MC rating of 99. And no game will ever get one again, most likely.

Once WWU comes out then GTA will be higher rated because then we could include remakes.

Just reach a little further. Grasp and the straws will come.

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#65 Posted by fernandmondego_ (3170 posts) -
SS was a steaming pile...
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#66 Posted by mems_1224 (56914 posts) -
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="RyanShazam"]Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to silver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one?

Wind Waker a masterpiece? Skyward Sword a masterpiece? Get the f*ck out.

This
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#67 Posted by tryagainlater (7446 posts) -

Wind Waker's the best Zelda game...

[spoiler] I'll add IMO incase DarkLink starts going on about objective standards [/spoiler]

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#68 Posted by Heil68 (57720 posts) -
[QUOTE="mems_1224"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="RyanShazam"]Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to silver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one?

Wind Waker a masterpiece? Skyward Sword a masterpiece? Get the f*ck out.

This

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#69 Posted by lamprey263 (34425 posts) -
I heard Wind Waker is geting an HD treatment on the Wii U, I'm looking forward to that since it's like the one GameCube game I can't get my hands on... but I'll need a Wii U first.
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#70 Posted by whiskeystrike (12172 posts) -

So this is just a Legend of Zelda circlejerk thread? I'm down with that

*strokes

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#71 Posted by RyanShazam (6498 posts) -

So this is just a Legend of Zelda circlejerk thread? I'm down with that

*strokes

whiskeystrike
Everyone is invited!!! Lol
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#72 Posted by ArisShadows (22784 posts) -
[QUOTE="DarkLink77"][QUOTE="RyanShazam"]Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to silver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one?

Wind Waker a masterpiece? Skyward Sword a masterpiece? Get the f*ck out.

:/ Wind Waker is..
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#73 Posted by RyanShazam (6498 posts) -
I heard Wind Waker is geting an HD treatment on the Wii U, I'm looking forward to that since it's like the one GameCube game I can't get my hands on... but I'll need a Wii U first.lamprey263
Yes it is! Nintendo is giving us that game to play while they make Zelda U. I've been wanting to play Wind Waker again but now I'm going to wait for this remake.
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#74 Posted by DerveCreaves (345 posts) -

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"][QUOTE="DarkLink77"] This. Also no GTA game has a MC rating of 99. And no game will ever get one again, most likely.ConanTheStoner

Once WWU comes out then GTA will be higher rated because then we could include remakes.

Just reach a little further. Grasp and the straws will come.

It's the only reason people say Zelda is better than GTA for the sole reason that(on MC) that they don't include re-releases/remakes. Also neither are that good so I think you are grasping at straws thinking I am tied to one or the other.
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#75 Posted by charizard1605 (82622 posts) -
lolSkywardSword
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#76 Posted by RyanShazam (6498 posts) -
lolSkywardSwordcharizard1605
Skyward Sword was a excellent game...
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#77 Posted by charizard1605 (82622 posts) -
[QUOTE="charizard1605"]lolSkywardSwordRyanShazam
Skyward Sword was a excellent game...

Excellent is beyond hyperbolic. It was objectively average at best.
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#78 Posted by RyanShazam (6498 posts) -
[QUOTE="RyanShazam"][QUOTE="charizard1605"]lolSkywardSwordcharizard1605
Skyward Sword was a excellent game...

Excellent is beyond hyperbolic. It was objectively average at best.

I loved it and a majority of the critics loved it. One of the highest rated games this generation. The world was beautiful. The motion sensing controls were flawless. The crafting system and upgrade system needs to be upgraded but it was a welcomed change to the series. The story was great. The boss fights were excelent.
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#79 Posted by charizard1605 (82622 posts) -
[QUOTE="RyanShazam"][QUOTE="charizard1605"][QUOTE="RyanShazam"] Skyward Sword was a excellent game...

Excellent is beyond hyperbolic. It was objectively average at best.

I loved it and a majority of the critics loved it. One of the highest rated games this generation. The world was beautiful. The motion sensing controls were flawless. The crafting system and upgrade system needs to be upgraded but it was a welcomed change to the series. The story was great. The boss fights were excelent.

The controls were broken for everything beyond the combat (shoehorning it so that you needed to use the Wiimote to swim/fly/solve lock-key puzzles, control Link's fall was the dumbest idea of all time); the pacing was beyond ridiculous (six hours to get to the first dungeon?); the stupid forced REPEATED tutorials were a pain in the ass ('Master, this is a key. Keys open locks. Every single. F*cking. Time); the overworld was bare, and a massive step back, the restricted exploration compromised the feel of the entire game. Skyward Sword was Zelda at its lowest point yet, I can only hope they return to how good the previous games were.
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#80 Posted by BrunoBRS (74156 posts) -
[QUOTE="RyanShazam"][QUOTE="charizard1605"]lolSkywardSwordcharizard1605
Skyward Sword was a excellent game...

Excellent is beyond hyperbolic. It was objectively average at best.

1- lol the irony of you accusing someone of hyperbole 2- we've been over the whole "objective quality" thing in this thread already. and it's BS that people say to make their opinions sound like facts.
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#81 Posted by ConanTheStoner (17152 posts) -

[QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"] Once WWU comes out then GTA will be higher rated because then we could include remakes.DerveCreaves

Just reach a little further. Grasp and the straws will come.

It's the only reason people say Zelda is better than GTA for the sole reason that(on MC) that they don't include re-releases/remakes. Also neither are that good so I think you are grasping at straws thinking I am tied to one or the other.

Buddy you're the one that brought up GTA in a Zelda topic.

You can say neither are good. That's fine, its all a matter of preference. But they're both among the most well received gaming series of all time.

And I believe the phrase "grasping for straws" is lost on you. You're the one trying too hard to support your flimsy argument and misinformation. I'm simply hitting you the facts. So who is grasping here?

Exactly.

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#82 Posted by jg4xchamp (61445 posts) -
I'm hoping they drop the not so good qualities of the Zelda games that show up all the f*cking time. Namely wasting my time with fetch quests. If Nintendo is as good as they are suppose to be they start putting 2 and 2 together and realize only the most mentally challenged people enjoy that sh1t in their game.
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#83 Posted by sammyjenkis898 (28392 posts) -

You'd have to be out of your mind to consider Twilight Princess a masterpiece.

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#84 Posted by ConanTheStoner (17152 posts) -

You'd have to be out of your mind to consider Twilight Princess a masterpiece.

sammyjenkis898

One of my favorite games this gen, I think I liked it more than most. But yeah, masterpiece is a strong word.

I reserve that for games like SMG2, FFVI, Chrono Trigger, SotN, Yoshis Island, MGS3, Ninja Gaiden Black, etc..

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#85 Posted by bbkkristian (14971 posts) -
Ah the butthurt in this thread is pricless :cool: way to go, Ryan, I agree.
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#86 Posted by locopatho (23126 posts) -
Nah last masterpiece Zelda was Windwaker imo, and even then you could argue it was too easy and fetch questy. Competition has heated up, there are better games then Zelda nowadays, Zelda still great but Nintendo would be surprising me if they made a masterpiece Zelda game on WiiU.
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#87 Posted by DerveCreaves (345 posts) -

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"][QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

Just reach a little further. Grasp and the straws will come.

ConanTheStoner

It's the only reason people say Zelda is better than GTA for the sole reason that(on MC) that they don't include re-releases/remakes. Also neither are that good so I think you are grasping at straws thinking I am tied to one or the other.

Buddy you're the one that brought up GTA in a Zelda topic.

You can say neither are good. That's fine, its all a matter of preference. But they're both among the most well received gaming series of all time.

And I believe the phrase "grasping for straws" is lost on you. You're the one trying too hard to support your flimsy argument and misinformation. I'm simply hitting you the facts. So who is grasping here?

Exactly.

Hitting me with facts you have no proof of? How is it misinformation when counting rated re-releases/Remakes Zelda losses but if you don't Zelda wins? You are spreading misinformation.
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#88 Posted by Michael0134567 (28651 posts) -
Ah the butthurt in this thread is pricless :cool: way to go, Ryan, I agree.bbkkristian
Dude's a legend :cool:.
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#89 Posted by enterawesome (9477 posts) -
I'm not a big Zelda guy, Wind Waker was pretty f*cking great, though. TP and SS were beautiful and entertaining but... eh. It's time to shake it up. I'm glad to hear that Nintendo is looking to restructure the next game, the series has basically followed the same blueprint since '98.
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#90 Posted by Farsendor1 (462 posts) -

Ocarina of Time: 99 Majora's Mask: 95 Windwaker: 96 Twilight Princess: 95 Skyward Sword: 93 With Zelda U coming out in the next few years, Nintendo is bound to create another Masterpiece. Will The Legend of Zelda continue to deliver on all aspects or will Nintendo drop the ball with this one? RyanShazam

yep a santas little helper that goes around with a twig saying ha ha ha ha ha ha and thats all he says throughout his life.

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#91 Posted by DerveCreaves (345 posts) -
The only Masterpiece was this one:  and that's just sad/ . . i was joking btw.
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#92 Posted by RyanShazam (6498 posts) -
Ah the butthurt in this thread is pricless :cool: way to go, Ryan, I agree.bbkkristian
May the butthurt flow through them.
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#93 Posted by sammyjenkis898 (28392 posts) -
I'm not a big Zelda guy, Wind Waker was pretty f*cking great, though. TP and SS were beautiful and entertaining but... eh. It's time to shake it up. I'm glad to hear that Nintendo is looking to restructure the next game, the series has basically followed the same blueprint since '98.enterawesome
They said the same thing after Twilight Princess.
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#94 Posted by Novotine (1199 posts) -
how about nintendo comes out with a new IP =|
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#95 Posted by enterawesome (9477 posts) -
[QUOTE="enterawesome"]I'm not a big Zelda guy, Wind Waker was pretty f*cking great, though. TP and SS were beautiful and entertaining but... eh. It's time to shake it up. I'm glad to hear that Nintendo is looking to restructure the next game, the series has basically followed the same blueprint since '98.sammyjenkis898
They said the same thing after Twilight Princess.

They sorta told the truth. Hey man, Phantom Hourglass is pretty out there... Anyways the implications from the Direct conference sound drastic. Co-op, non-linear progression, new visual style, that sounds good. I'll wait and see if they make good on that stuff, but I really hope they do.
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#96 Posted by ConanTheStoner (17152 posts) -

[QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"] It's the only reason people say Zelda is better than GTA for the sole reason that(on MC) that they don't include re-releases/remakes. Also neither are that good so I think you are grasping at straws thinking I am tied to one or the other.DerveCreaves

Buddy you're the one that brought up GTA in a Zelda topic.

You can say neither are good. That's fine, its all a matter of preference. But they're both among the most well received gaming series of all time.

And I believe the phrase "grasping for straws" is lost on you. You're the one trying too hard to support your flimsy argument and misinformation. I'm simply hitting you the facts. So who is grasping here?

Exactly.

Hitting me with facts you have no proof of? How is it misinformation when counting rated re-releases/Remakes Zelda losses but if you don't Zelda wins? You are spreading misinformation.

Allow me to make this easy for you.

You randomly brought up a point that the GTA series is higher scoring. MISINFORMATION. I told you that you were wrong. FACT. Not that it matters as they are so close, but still you're wrong.

Rather than simply admit you were wrong, or just leave it alone, you come at me with the "what if" scenarios as if they have any bearing on your off topic tangent to begin with. GRASPING.

Get it? Good.

Avatar image for DerveCreaves
#97 Posted by DerveCreaves (345 posts) -

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"][QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

Buddy you're the one that brought up GTA in a Zelda topic.

You can say neither are good. That's fine, its all a matter of preference. But they're both among the most well received gaming series of all time.

And I believe the phrase "grasping for straws" is lost on you. You're the one trying too hard to support your flimsy argument and misinformation. I'm simply hitting you the facts. So who is grasping here?

Exactly.

ConanTheStoner

Hitting me with facts you have no proof of? How is it misinformation when counting rated re-releases/Remakes Zelda losses but if you don't Zelda wins? You are spreading misinformation.

Allow me to make this easy for you.

You randomly brought up a point that the GTA series is higher scoring. MISINFORMATION. I told you that you we're wrong. FACT. Not that it matters as they are so close, but still you're wrong.

Rather than simply admit you were wrong, or just leave it alone, you come at me with the "what if" scenarios as if they have any bearing on your off topic tangent to begin with. GRASPING.

Get it? Good.

Actually the very first thing I said before you came out of nowhere in my intial posts was that I was wrong until WWU releases. So uh, shut up? Learn to read?
Avatar image for ConanTheStoner
#98 Posted by ConanTheStoner (17152 posts) -

[QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"] Hitting me with facts you have no proof of? How is it misinformation when counting rated re-releases/Remakes Zelda losses but if you don't Zelda wins? You are spreading misinformation.DerveCreaves

Allow me to make this easy for you.

You randomly brought up a point that the GTA series is higher scoring. MISINFORMATION. I told you that you we're wrong. FACT. Not that it matters as they are so close, but still you're wrong.

Rather than simply admit you were wrong, or just leave it alone, you come at me with the "what if" scenarios as if they have any bearing on your off topic tangent to begin with. GRASPING.

Get it? Good.

Actually the very first thing I said before you came out of nowhere in my intial posts was that I was wrong until WWU releases. So uh, shut up? Learn to read?

1. Wrong. go back and read your post. It was quoted by multiple people, including myself.

2. Even if you would have originally (which you did later), that is grasping. The point you attempted to make fell flat on its ass. So now you're back pedaling trying to save face... as if it matters.

You're not going to win a prize for being right, but in this case you're wrong.

Getting upset and telling me to shut up doesn't help you at all.

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#99 Posted by FireEmblem_Man (17050 posts) -

The only real butthurt are fans that take Aonuma's Wind Waker up. Really, Aonuma can't make a good Zelda game.

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#100 Posted by DerveCreaves (345 posts) -

[QUOTE="DerveCreaves"][QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

Allow me to make this easy for you.

You randomly brought up a point that the GTA series is higher scoring. MISINFORMATION. I told you that you we're wrong. FACT. Not that it matters as they are so close, but still you're wrong.

Rather than simply admit you were wrong, or just leave it alone, you come at me with the "what if" scenarios as if they have any bearing on your off topic tangent to begin with. GRASPING.

Get it? Good.

ConanTheStoner

Actually the very first thing I said before you came out of nowhere in my intial posts was that I was wrong until WWU releases. So uh, shut up? Learn to read?

1. Wrong. go back and read your post. It was quoted by multiple people, including myself.

2. Even if you would have originally (which you did later), that is grasping. The point you attempted to make fell flat on its ass. So now you're back pedaling trying to save face... as if it matters.

You're not going to win a prize for being right, but in this case you're wrong.

Getting upset and telling me to shut up doesn't help you at all.

1.Not wrong use math. 2.What am I back peddling? You are the one that stated I did it later I admitted I was wrong in the first place, does not change the fact GTA will be on top at the point WWU comes out, especially with GTAV included. 3.Telling you to shut up keeps making you panic and go back and change things that were never said.