The Last of Us Part 2- Story Discussion (Spoilers)

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Vaasman

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#51  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14403 Posts

@zaryia said:

How did Abby's body become like that, that's not by any means normal even for women who use roids. Some kind of mutation experiment? They didn't explain this.

But for real you should google ladies who've used steroids, it's not unrealistic at all by that comparison. Plus the model's based on a real lady so...

If she's training for 4 years because she's deranged and obsessed that's fine enough, the plot isn't about people getting jacked in a ruined city. I'm not going to try arguing plausibility in a fictional setting because there's plenty you could ruin about TLOU 1 and 2 if you try applying real world science or physics, but in the grand scheme of things Abby's physique is the least of the game's story problems.

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Zaryia

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#52  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 12638 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@zaryia said:

How did Abby's body become like that, that's not by any means normal even for women who use roids. Some kind of mutation experiment? They didn't explain this.

But for real you should google ladies who've used steroids, it's not unrealistic at all by that comparison. Plus the model's based on a real lady so...

If she's training for 4 years because she's deranged and obsessed that's fine enough, the plot isn't about people getting jacked in a ruined city. I'm not going to try arguing plausibility in a fictional setting because there's plenty you could ruin about TLOU 1 and 2 if you try applying real world science or physics, but in the grand scheme of things Abby's physique is the least of the game's story problems.

Ive been in relationships with girls who lifted hard for 4+ years. They didn't look remotely like Abby. That's fake as hell lol ND are virgins or something.

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Vaasman

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#53  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14403 Posts

@zaryia said:

Ive been in relationships with girls who lifted hard for 4+ years. They didn't look remotely like Abby. That's fake as hell lol ND are virgins or something.

That sounds awfully convenient to the point you're trying to make. But if you can't explain away why people do look like this in real life, whether through natural means or no (because it was you who brought up steroids) then it's a meaningless anecdote.

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Zaryia

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#54  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 12638 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@zaryia said:

Ive been in relationships with girls who lifted hard for 4+ years. They didn't look remotely like Abby. That's fake as hell lol ND are virgins or something.

That sounds awfully convenient to the point you're trying to make. But if you can't explain away why people do look like this in real life, whether through natural means or no (because it was you who brought up steroids) then it's a meaningless anecdote.

I can always just search them on pornhub even if that wasn't the case lol. ND dropped the ball, women who work out don't look like that.

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Vaasman

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#55  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14403 Posts

@zaryia said:

I can always just search them on pornhub even if that wasn't the case lol. ND dropped the ball, women don't look like that.

Literally 3 seconds on google tells me they can and do, and if steroids are involved then all bets are off. You can't just lie your way to making a point you don't have.

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Ballroompirate

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#56 Ballroompirate
Member since 2005 • 26090 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:
@Ballroompirate said:

If you wanted to kill off Joel have him die saving Dina/Ellies kid or saving Tommy, hell have him take that bullet for Jesse but no we had the most bull *** death in gaming, his whole death scene was against his character

There's very few people in the world Joel trusted, even giving out his name to randos was beyond out of character. He literally got the Luke Skywalker treatment.

Well Ellie was 14 XD and at least she didn't puss out on trying to kill David once she figured out his motives, at least from what I remember

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Ballroompirate

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#57 Ballroompirate
Member since 2005 • 26090 Posts
@zaryia said:

How did Abby's body become like that, that's not by any means normal even for women who use roids. Some kind of mutation experiment? They didn't explain this.

I wanna know where she got all of that protein in a Apocalyptic world to sustain those muscles alongside a gym, unless she was doing some Conan the Barbarian crap

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Maroxad

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#58 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 15815 Posts
@Vaasman said:
@zaryia said:

How did Abby's body become like that, that's not by any means normal even for women who use roids. Some kind of mutation experiment? They didn't explain this.

But for real you should google ladies who've used steroids, it's not unrealistic at all by that comparison. Plus the model's based on a real lady so...

If she's training for 4 years because she's deranged and obsessed that's fine enough, the plot isn't about people getting jacked in a ruined city. I'm not going to try arguing plausibility in a fictional setting because there's plenty you could ruin about TLOU 1 and 2 if you try applying real world science or physics, but in the grand scheme of things Abby's physique is the least of the game's story problems.

Vaccines for a fungal infection?

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Zaryia

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#59  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 12638 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@zaryia said:

I can always just search them on pornhub even if that wasn't the case lol. ND dropped the ball, women don't look like that.

Literally 3 seconds on google tells me they can and do, and if steroids are involved then all bets are off. You can't just lie your way to making a point you don't have.

I googled it and they don't look like that and neither did the ones I dated. It's like this IRL without steroids:

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Vaasman

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#60 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14403 Posts

@zaryia said:
@Vaasman said:

Literally 3 seconds on google tells me they can and do, and if steroids are involved then all bets are off. You can't just lie your way to making a point you don't have.

I googled it and they don't look like that.

Here's her body model, Colleen Fotsch, feel free to look at other pictures of her and revel in self-ownage. And lets not bother posting folks who juice (which honestly Fotsch might I couldn't say), because as I state again, if we count folks like that which was your idea, then what's possible goes out the window.

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Zaryia

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#61  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 12638 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@zaryia said:
@Vaasman said:

Literally 3 seconds on google tells me they can and do, and if steroids are involved then all bets are off. You can't just lie your way to making a point you don't have.

I googled it and they don't look like that.

That is steroids. Look at the 3 photos I posted, they are HOT.

When did Abbey get time for steroids.

Abbey looks like a mutant, that's not real. ND was pandering.

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Vaasman

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#62 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14403 Posts

@zaryia said:
@Vaasman said:

That is steroids. Look at the 3 photos I posted, they are HOT.

When did Abbey get time for steroids.

Abbey looks like a mutant, that's not real. ND was pandering.

It's hilarious that you accuse ND of being virgins while you sit there trying to define what's possible by what you think is hot. Fuckin hell.

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phbz

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#63 phbz
Member since 2009 • 5827 Posts

@Vaasman: Can't wank lose bank?

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Chutebox

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#64 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 45819 Posts

Those shoulders scream roids

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Zero_epyon

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#65 Zero_epyon  Online
Member since 2004 • 14402 Posts

@R10nu said:
@Zero_epyon said:

How does the game try to make you sympathize for Abby when clearly she’s only really liked by like two people in the whole game.

Oh I don't know, by making you play her for 10 hours, during which she pets dogs, saves baby zebras with her super awesome and kind dad, has a super diverse cast of friends, one of which is her childhood sweetheart, and even goes out of her way to help her sworn enemies who've been waging war with her group for 4 years, because they saved her life.

Yet she doesn't even hesitate to torture Joel, who also saves her life, in front of his family because a grudge from 4 years ago is somehow much stronger than a grudge of a tribal war you're engaging in every single day.

Oh, and if she's only liked by 2 people in the game, how come there's 8 people that went AWOL with her and joined a wild goose chase across 1000 miles of infected-ridden land on horseback just so she can find a middle-aged dude named Joel and get her petty revenge.

Which she literally wouldn't even be able to do upon getting there if he didn't miraculously fall onto her lap, wearing a "Hi i'm Joel, the killer of fireflies extraordinaire" badge.

@Zero_epyon said:

She had no loyalty to anyone but herself. In a way, she’s kind of like Joel.

Joel didn't go on a cross-country journey with his 8 loyal friends to find the commander who gave order to shoot Sarah.

@Zero_epyon said:

I have to hate the game because Abby = hitler somehow.

Yeah, you're right, even Hitler wouldn't torture to death someone who saved his life moments ago. Even Hitler cared deeply about the friends he'd lost during WW1 instead of moving on like they never existed.

They say "you judge a man not by how he treats his friends, but by how he treats his enemies". And with the way Abby treats Joel at the start of the game she becomes utterly irredeemable. There's no humanity to be salvaged from her, no matter the amount of animals and kids she saves, like with David from TLOU1. I don't care to hear his sob story for 5 minutes, let alone play him for 10 hours.

Context doesn't = caring.

Just because I know hitler played with dogs doesn't mean I like hitler now. That's dumb.

How do you know Joel didn't do that? All those years went by. That could be one of the things Joel did all those years.

This is pretty funny. So you think the game wants you to like Abby by playing as her, but you expect Abby to instantly like Joel because he saved her from a single infected. You've got some serious inconsistency there.

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#66  Edited By blamix
Member since 2006 • 935 Posts

I think the game was great. But yeah i was also disappointed that they killed of Joel early in the game.

Gameplay 10/10

Story 8/10

I hope the third game won't have Ellie and the rest. I want someone new.

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Chutebox

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#67 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 45819 Posts

Anyone who can answer, does the story still involve a cure at all or is it just survival?

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R10nu

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#68 R10nu
Member since 2006 • 1589 Posts

@Zero_epyon said:

Just because I know hitler played with dogs doesn't mean I like hitler now. That's dumb.

Nobody does. That's why nobody makes you play him for 10 hours so you can see his "good side". That would be intellectually insulting, like playing Abby is. Like we don't already know that most of the scumbags we kill in TLOU have a "good side" and you have to commit half your game to driving that point home.

@Zero_epyon said:

How do you know Joel didn't do that? All those years went by. That could be one of the things Joel did all those years.

Because that would make him a well known terrorist after the time skip, which he clearly isn't because he lives along side the military.

But Fireflies are. You know, to whom Abby and her goody-two-shoes zebra-saving dad serve?

@Zero_epyon said:

This is pretty funny. So you think the game wants you to like Abby by playing as her, but you expect Abby to instantly like Joel because he saved her from a single infected. You've got some serious inconsistency there.

Oh, so you don't even know what the **** happens in the game. Should've said so from the start, buddy.

Joel saves Abby from a massive horde of infected and gets her ass out of dodge on his horse. She had absolutely no chance of surviving if Joel didn't show up.

And then she tortures him to death with no hint of hesitation as a thanks. In front of his familty. Yeah nice, I don't want to play as this person please.

Oh, she had a loving dad? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she saves a zebra? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she has a dog? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she's got a lovely bunch of friends? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she's merciful with her enemies? ... Say what now?

Oh, she betrays her friends over these enemies because they saved her life? Say what the fucking shit now?

Are they trying to establish that she's a bipolar sociopath or this is just shit writing? Given the abundant plot holes I'll go with the latter.

Arguing about the game's story on the grounds of some apologetic youtube schmuck's opinion piece without actually knowing what happens tho?

@Zero_epyon said:

You've got some serious inconsistency there.

You're done.

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#69 Zero_epyon  Online
Member since 2004 • 14402 Posts

@Chutebox said:

Anyone who can answer, does the story still involve a cure at all or is it just survival?

It's about revenge cycles.

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#70 Zero_epyon  Online
Member since 2004 • 14402 Posts
@R10nu said:
@Zero_epyon said:

Just because I know hitler played with dogs doesn't mean I like hitler now. That's dumb.

Nobody does. That's why nobody makes you play him for 10 hours so you can see his "good side". That would be intellectually insulting, like playing Abby is. Like we don't already know that most of the scumbags we kill in TLOU have a "good side" and you have to commit half your game to driving that point home.

@Zero_epyon said:

How do you know Joel didn't do that? All those years went by. That could be one of the things Joel did all those years.

Because that would make him a well known terrorist after the time skip, which he clearly isn't because he lives along side the military.

But Fireflies are. You know, to whom Abby and her goody-two-shoes zebra-saving dad serve?

@Zero_epyon said:

This is pretty funny. So you think the game wants you to like Abby by playing as her, but you expect Abby to instantly like Joel because he saved her from a single infected. You've got some serious inconsistency there.

Oh, so you don't even know what the **** happens in the game. Should've said so from the start, buddy.

Joel saves Abby from a massive horde of infected and gets her ass out of dodge on his horse. She had absolutely no chance of surviving if Joel didn't show up.

And then she tortures him to death with no hint of hesitation as a thanks. In front of his familty. Yeah nice, I don't want to play as this person please.

Oh, she had a loving dad? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she saves a zebra? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she has a dog? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she's got a lovely bunch of friends? I don't give a ****.

Oh, she's merciful with her enemies? ... Say what now?

Oh, she betrays her friends over these enemies because they saved her life? Say what the fucking shit now?

Are they trying to establish that she's a bipolar sociopath or this is just shit writing? Given the abundant plot holes I'll go with the latter.

Arguing about the game's story on the grounds of some apologetic youtube schmuck's opinion piece without actually knowing what happens tho?

@Zero_epyon said:

You've got some serious inconsistency there.

You're done.

Why do you insist on believing that they tried to show Abby's good side? Abby has no good side.

Abby's dad was a cool dude, but he was willing to easily give up Ellie's life, but never answered the question about if it was Abby on that table. He's just as selfish as Joel. Doesn't mean Abby's a saint. She went along with it too.

Her dad wanted to save the Zebra. She and Owen were reluctant to do so. End of the day, Abby's dad saved the Zebra.

The dog wasn't hers, it was Owen's. Playing with the dog was more to show how isolated scars were and not how human Abby was.

Abby and her group were fireflies. But that wasn't enough for her and Mel to hate each other. Mel even comes right out and says that Abby is a terrible person. She has good reasons.

She killed Joel, killed Jesse, attempted to kill Tommy since he survived the gunshot to the face. Were it not for Lev, she would have killed Dina and Ellie as well. If anyone is merciful, it's Lev, not Abby.

She didn't betray her friends, she betrayed the WLF. Her real friends are fireflies. When Lev sees dead WLF soldiers, he asks her if she knew them. Abby said no, and she didn't feel remorse for them, even though they're on the same side.

She wasn't trying to protect scars. She was just trying to protect Lev because Lev was escaping and he saved her life. Issac (the actual Hitler character in the game) didn't care and wanted to kill them all, children or not.

You also ignored my question so I'll ask it again. So you think the game wants you to like Abby by playing as her, but you expect Abby to instantly like Joel because he saved her from a single infected?

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adsparky

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#71 adsparky
Member since 2006 • 1749 Posts

All about Abby was weird, because I really can't get to like her, knowing what she did to Joel, also her friends look like a great bunch but since you already know their fate it's hard to get attached to them. I think they could have done better with the narrative since they were already playing with the chronology of the events. But well, I liked the game yet I think the first one is superior in almost every aspect, particularly the soundtrack and story.

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Zidaneski

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#72 Zidaneski  Online
Member since 2003 • 8943 Posts

Just finished the game. Probably the best game I’ve ever played. Probably the best piece of entertainment I’ve ever experienced. Yes, some parts ran long but all of it was engaging. Sounds like people are split on the ending just like the original, really incredible ND was able to pull that off two times in a row. I thought they shouldnt of made a sequel but after this game I’ll take a third game no questions asked.

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R10nu

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#73  Edited By R10nu
Member since 2006 • 1589 Posts

@Zero_epyon said:

Why do you insist on believing that they tried to show Abby's good side? Abby has no good side.

Right, that's why half the game is dedicated to her. Are you gonna address that elephant in the room, or you wanna keep grasping at straws?

@Zero_epyon said:

You also ignored my question so I'll ask it again. So you think the game wants you to like Abby by playing as her, but you expect Abby to instantly like Joel because he saved her from a single infected?

I didn't ignore the question, I gave a lengthy detailed answer that you clearly struggle to comprehend with your head up your ass.

But what do I expect from someone who keeps begging the question that has factually incorrect shit it in.

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#74 Zidaneski  Online
Member since 2003 • 8943 Posts

To me a good person is someone genuinely making the effort to do good in the present. I don't care what good or bad they've done in the past. Therefore, to me Abby and Ellie are good people right now. Joel when he died, was a good person. However, he did say he would do the same thing again given the chance so in that case you could argue he was bad I don't think it's right morally to assume on what ifs for other people.

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phbz

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#75 phbz
Member since 2009 • 5827 Posts

This isn't really about being good or not. Don't get why people feel the need to simplify things as such.

This is just people being people. You don't really need to sympathize or vilify the characters. In the first game Joel was not a good guy, he's just a person caught up in the circumstances surrounding him, doing what he had to survive. Then destiny knocks at his door with Ellie, both as a way to deal with the loss of his daughter and the possibility of saving the world.

His decision to save Ellie and kill the doctor, came from a place of love. He couldn't let Ellie die because he loved her. It transcends good or evil. By doing so he traded Ellie's life for millions of lives and he would do it again because he loves her. Not a choice really, particularly considering how he lost his daughter too.

There were always going to be consequences from this decision. More so because Joel lied to Ellie.l (which on top of everything is also a teen) This is a literary well known truth, the past eventually catches up with you. Actions don't exist in a void.

Joel killed Abby's father. He killed a doctor that was just trying to save humanity. To be killed by the child of the men you murdered is as a classical revenge story as it gets, even the hero/villan duality of the main character seeking for revenge is hundreds of years old.

Abby is not being good or the hero. You don't have to sympathize with her. In fact it's not the job of fiction to give you heroes and moral guidelines. Abby is blinded by hate, her existence is laser focused on avenging her father. Her body is a manifestation of this.

For the most part the game illustrates hate. It puts you in situations where you think "I'm good, I wanna stay forever in this aquarium/farm and enjoy life" but the irrationality of hate and revenge drags you out against your "will" and makes the player feel that its actions don't feel as justified or fulfilling as in most games where you're the almighty paladin hero.

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#76 Zidaneski  Online
Member since 2003 • 8943 Posts
@phbz said:

This isn't really about being good or not. Don't get why people feel the need to simplify things as such.

This is just people being people. You don't really need to sympathize or vilify the characters. In the first game Joel was not a good guy, he's just a person caught up in the circumstances surrounding him, doing what he had to survive. Then destiny knocks at his door with Ellie, both as a way to deal with the loss of his daughter and the possibility of saving the world.

His decision to save Ellie and kill the doctor, came from a place of love. He couldn't let Ellie die because he loved her. It transcends good or evil. By doing so he traded Ellie's life for millions of lives and he would do it again because he loves her. Not a choice really, particularly considering how he lost his daughter too.

There were always going to be consequences from this decision. More so because Joel lied to Ellie.l (which on top of everything is also a teen) This is a literary well known truth, the past eventually catches up with you. Actions don't exist in a void.

Joel killed Abby's father. He killed a doctor that was just trying to save humanity. To be killed by the child of the men you murdered is as a classical revenge story as it gets, even the hero/villan duality of the main character seeking for revenge is hundreds of years old.

Abby is not being good or the hero. You don't have to sympathize with her. In fact it's not the job of fiction to give you heroes and moral guidelines. Abby is blinded by hate, her existence is laser focused on avenging her father. Her body is a manifestation of this.

For the most part the game illustrates hate. It puts you in situations where you think "I'm good, I wanna stay forever in this aquarium/farm and enjoy life" but the irrationality of hate and revenge drags you out against your "will" and makes the player feel that its actions don't feel as justified or fulfilling as in most games where you're the almighty paladin hero.

true you don’t have to sympathize with anyone in the story If you don’t want too and still be able to enjoy the story. However, I do sympathize with most of the characters, even have empathy for them as well. And I think for many stories to have personal meaning you naturally start asking yourself thought-provoking questions like ”If I were this character or that character what would I have done?” “If I met this character how would I treat them?”. So yeah the story is about the cycle of violence and that you’re the villain from someone else’s eyes and there is certainly so much to talk about there but I can easily take-away other important points from the story and apply them.

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rzxv04

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#77 rzxv04
Member since 2018 • 856 Posts

The ending reminds me of how some people, years ago found the first game's ending also lacking. Like he lies to Ellie and that's it?

Ellie's barn PTSD scene was amazing though.

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#78 Giancar
Member since 2006 • 19157 Posts

Wait. are really some people defending this crap of story?

Come one, ND dropped the ball so hard in this game.

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#79  Edited By Nirgal
Member since 2019 • 133 Posts

Wow this thread became super weird. Btw, there is an article in eurogamer with druckmann discussing the plot. It does not say anything about muscular women though. Sorry to disappoint.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-07-01-a-spoiler-heavy-interview-with-the-last-of-us-part-2-director-neil-druckmann

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#80 Star67
Member since 2005 • 4689 Posts

I think it's important to note that both Abby and Ellie lost their "Family and Friends" when they went on their quest for revenge.

After Abby kills Joel her relationship with Owen and Mel is even more strained, they obviously didn't 100% agree to that crusade. Both Owen and Mel state this, Mel even calling Abby Toxic

Ellie had a chance to lead a normalish life with Dina at their farmhouse, but Ellie can't let go and ends up losing Dina and JJ.

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#81  Edited By Epak_
Member since 2004 • 10958 Posts

Welp, in the end I didn't want either Ellie or Abby to die, if they tried to achieve that, it worked for me at least. Liked this more than the clunky first one, better gameplay, better enemy encounters, better pacing even etc. It had its LGQSDQ moments with Lev, but I don't mind, it's a modern game. Never felt like the game should end already, I've had those moments with shorter games (because they got dragged way too long for their own good). This game is a 9 for me and I will dive into NG+ soon enough.

Edit: Tried to watch that AJ review. It's like he forgot Joel killed Abby's father, she was already on her revenge trip. I did dislike her at the start though, like most probably did.

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#82 Zidaneski  Online
Member since 2003 • 8943 Posts

@Giancar: I don’t see how the ball was dropped tho. I was getting a bit disoriented with the time jumps everywhere but having Mel be visibly pregnant helped put in correct order. It dragged in some places and doing so much to help Lev’s sister and have be for naught irked me at first but it really showed how hard Abby was trying to overcompensate for her previous actions.

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#83  Edited By Zero_epyon  Online
Member since 2004 • 14402 Posts

@Epak_ said:

Welp, in the end I didn't want either Ellie or Abby to die, if they tried to achieve that, it worked for me at least. Liked this more than the clunky first one, better gameplay, better enemy encounters, better pacing even etc. It had its LGQSDQ moments with Lev, but I don't mind, it's a modern game. Never felt like the game should end already, I've had those moments with shorter games (because they got dragged way too long for their own good). This game is a 9 for me and I will dive into NG+ soon enough.

Edit: Tried to watch that AJ review. It's like he forgot Joel killed Abby's father, she was already on her revenge trip. I did dislike her at the start though, like most probably did.

Yeah I was relieved when she stopped drowning her. They will never be friends, but I see them being allies if the fireflies make a comeback.

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#84 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 15345 Posts

@Epak_ said:

Welp, in the end I didn't want either Ellie or Abby to die, if they tried to achieve that, it worked for me at least. Liked this more than the clunky first one, better gameplay, better enemy encounters, better pacing even etc.

There's no way TLoU II has better pacing than the first, it could have hours of content cut to its benefit.

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#85  Edited By warmblur
Member since 2017 • 5250 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:
@Epak_ said:

Welp, in the end I didn't want either Ellie or Abby to die, if they tried to achieve that, it worked for me at least. Liked this more than the clunky first one, better gameplay, better enemy encounters, better pacing even etc.

There's no way TLoU II has better pacing than the first, it could have hours of content cut to its benefit.

I agree 100 percent I don't remember playing a game in such a long time that dragged on and on like the TLOU2 did. I enjoyed the game for the most part but the pacing is brutal much worst then RDR2 slow burn.

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#86 Epak_
Member since 2004 • 10958 Posts

@warmblur: Pfffft, the first one had such a slow start I never managed to play it the second time.

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#87 SolidGame_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 26478 Posts

I think this game is special. Even if you hated the fact that Joel was killed, the amount of emotion that the game invokes out of the player is unprecedented. And the idea that you then play the killer and get to know them as well as the other factions is something truly unique. I think not only just for a video game, but for media in general. Too often we just accept the violence in our entertainment without really thinking about what it means.

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#88 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 5878 Posts

@R10nu:

"Are they trying to establish that she's a bipolar sociopath or this is just shit writing? Given the abundant plot holes I'll go with the latter."

You're being too emotional about Joel. The entire point was to let you decide who you think is in the right. Last of Us has no good people, just people trying to survive. That pretty much sums up the nature of the story.

Joel doomed humanity when he saved Ellie and he killed Abby's dad. If we saw the whole game in reverse and saw it entirely from Abby's point of view, you'd have thought Joel was a monster. But Abby didn't get that opportunity so many people already decided to hate her just because she killed Joel. If anything, Ellie could easily be perceived as the bad guy in part 2. Abby let Ellie go twice and Ellie just came back and murdered her friends then tried to kill her after she was left frail and close to death. Ellie even gave up her life with Dina to do this.

Maybe it was wrong that she killed Joel and Abby's friends thought so too. But like Ellie, she couldn't live with herself knowing that her dad's killer was still out there. Again, it's all a matter of perspective but ultimately, there's a message behind this. And it's that revenge solves nothing.

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#89  Edited By R10nu
Member since 2006 • 1589 Posts

@nepu7supastar7 said:

You're being too emotional about Joel.

Nice strawman. Not even gonna bother reading the rest.

I'm pointing horribly inconsistent character writing, but all you can muster is the same rehearsed answer you're thoughtlessly shitting out whenever the topic pops up.

"You're being too invested in the sequel's story to the point where you can't recognize its faults".

Here you go, I can do it too.

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#90 phbz
Member since 2009 • 5827 Posts

@nepu7supastar7: Please stop making sense. How dare you?

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#91 Zero_epyon  Online
Member since 2004 • 14402 Posts

@nepu7supastar7 said:

@R10nu:

"Are they trying to establish that she's a bipolar sociopath or this is just shit writing? Given the abundant plot holes I'll go with the latter."

You're being too emotional about Joel. The entire point was to let you decide who you think is in the right. Last of Us has no good people, just people trying to survive. That pretty much sums up the nature of the story.

Joel doomed humanity when he saved Ellie and he killed Abby's dad. If we saw the whole game in reverse and saw it entirely from Abby's point of view, you'd have thought Joel was a monster. But Abby didn't get that opportunity so many people already decided to hate her just because she killed Joel. If anything, Ellie could easily be perceived as the bad guy in part 2. Abby let Ellie go twice and Ellie just came back and murdered her friends then tried to kill her after she was left frail and close to death. Ellie even gave up her life with Dina to do this.

Maybe it was wrong that she killed Joel and Abby's friends thought so too. But like Ellie, she couldn't live with herself knowing that her dad's killer was still out there. Again, it's all a matter of perspective but ultimately, there's a message behind this. And it's that revenge solves nothing.

People are so blinded by rage at Joel's death and sexual orientation that they completely miss the point of the story. Yes they could have told it better but it still gets the point across.

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#92 Zero_epyon  Online
Member since 2004 • 14402 Posts

@nepu7supastar7: oh and be prepared for this person to only respond to a part of your post and argue from there while ignoring all the points you made.

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#93  Edited By locopatho
Member since 2003 • 23831 Posts

Finally finished it. The end was a slog. I didn't need a multi-hour epilogue with a cartoonish new bad guy faction, and the final fight was just silly, both gameplay and storywise.

That aside, I thought it was great, if not quite the masterpiece the first one was.

The parallel story structure, character switching, flashbacks and revelations were magnitudes more complex than the first game (which was very simple), and it didn't all work for me, but most of it did, surprisingly. I think it would have been a stronger, more ambiguous ending if we ended with Ellie on the farm, shaking with PTSD, as Dina and her baby look on with concern and maybe even fear, and Tommy treating Ellie with disgust that she "gave up". She gets a "happy" ending, but remains badly damaged. And let Lev & Abby set out for the Fireflies, with no hint of if they're even still around. The magical island sanctuary full of Fireflies and maybe a new hope for a cure rang VERY false to me, in this misery world.

Anyway, love it or hate it, this is exactly the kind of ambition games should be aiming for. The ballistic rage that gets frothed forth over games like this is exactly the level of emotional reaction great art should get. No one gets this mad over the latest plotless Mario or rehashed COD story. It's a good sign, even the negative reactions, that Naughty Dog are capable of hitting people's emotions this deeply.

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#94  Edited By nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 5878 Posts

@R10nu:

If you don't bother reading posts then why should anyone take your point seriously? Your argument about inconsistency isn't even relevant to the story's problems. Most of that has to do with the order in which it was told but the content itself tells you everything you need to know. Your emotional tantrum blinds you from seeing it.

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#95  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 15345 Posts

Just a C & P to put this in the right place.

-------------------

Having had some time to now digest TLoU II, my main problem with it is that the original was predominantly a character-driven experience, whereas TLoU II is much more thematically-driven that liberally creates and destroys characters, new and old alike, before they really have an opportunity for development for what ultimately amounts to an incredibly trite and nihilistic message that in the end doesn't convey anything all that meaningful.

The themes of the first game (loss, love) were conveyed through the characters and their journey, and the difference here is that the themes now feel to come at their expense. Characters aren’t developed nor grow towards a thematic goal in TLoU II as I see it, they’re essentially shallow pawns thrown into a meat grinder, used to manipulate the audience through transparent plot contrivances and superficial window dressings (pet the doggy, flirt with your boyfriend, smoke weed with your girlfriend, etc.) and shock value tactics (whoops, you killed a pregnant girl, Joel's/Jesse’s death) to be able to eventually make a statement that ”Your enemies are people too!" or, ”Revenge is BAD!". No eventual thematic message excuses the atrocious treatment and manipulative nature of the characterization in order of its conveyance. The game downright exploits previous characters and uses them as nothing but fodder to hammer such vapid messages and themes home, which is incredibly disrespectful in my view.

It honestly feels to me like the creators approached TLoU II fundamentally failing to understand what made the original so beloved, alongside amateurish writing which didn't help. The shift from predominantly focusing on characterization in exemplification of themes from the first game to the shallow exploitation and manipulation of characterization to do so in the second gutted and cheapened the very soul of the experience that was TLoU, and as such, left it largely as nothing but an empty shell to convey a message of misery and nihilism that people are failing to see a point in. It's little wonder why.

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#96 IMAHAPYHIPPO
Member since 2004 • 3614 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@zaryia said:
@Vaasman said:

That is steroids. Look at the 3 photos I posted, they are HOT.

When did Abbey get time for steroids.

Abbey looks like a mutant, that's not real. ND was pandering.

It's hilarious that you accuse ND of being virgins while you sit there trying to define what's possible by what you think is hot. Fuckin hell.

Not to mention the "there are 7 billion people on the planet, but I Googled three of them and all women who lift look exactly like these three pictures" post.

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#97 R10nu
Member since 2006 • 1589 Posts

@Zero_epyon said:

oh and be prepared for this person to only respond to a part of your post and argue from there while ignoring all the points you made.

Not if you bark from the sidelines after bitching out from the argument.

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#98  Edited By R10nu
Member since 2006 • 1589 Posts
@nepu7supastar7 said:

If you don't bother reading posts then why should anyone take your point seriously?

You didn't "take my point seriously" enough to read it and address it and strawmanned me instead. Pardon me for telling you to **** right off with that. Don't let the door hit you.

@nepu7supastar7 said:

Your argument about inconsistency isn't even relevant to the story's problems.

Poor character writing is not relevant to a story's problems? You even reading the shit that you're typing out?

You REALLY want to put those arguments you've picked up from some article or a youtube video to use, don't you?

Too bad they don't stick here at all, so pick someone else to tag.

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#99 Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 45819 Posts

Not touching the attractive thing, but women dont look like the one above without taking something.

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#100 Zidaneski  Online
Member since 2003 • 8943 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:

Just a C & P to put this in the right place.

-------------------

Having had some time to now digest TLoU II, my main problem with it is that the original was predominantly a character-driven experience, whereas TLoU II is much more thematically-driven that liberally creates and destroys characters, new and old alike, before they really have an opportunity for development for what ultimately amounts to an incredibly trite and nihilistic message that in the end doesn't convey anything all that meaningful.

The themes of the first game (loss, love) were conveyed through the characters and their journey, and the difference here is that the themes now feel to come at their expense. Characters aren’t developed nor grow towards a thematic goal in TLoU II as I see it, they’re essentially shallow pawns thrown into a meat grinder, used to manipulate the audience through transparent plot contrivances and superficial window dressings (pet the doggy, flirt with your boyfriend, smoke weed with your girlfriend, etc.) and shock value tactics (whoops, you killed a pregnant girl, Joel's/Jesse’s death) to be able to eventually make a statement that ”Your enemies are people too!" or, ”Revenge is BAD!". No eventual thematic message excuses the atrocious treatment and manipulative nature of the characterization in order of its conveyance. The game downright exploits previous characters and uses them as nothing but fodder to hammer such vapid messages and themes home, which is incredibly disrespectful in my view.

It honestly feels to me like the creators approached TLoU II fundamentally failing to understand what made the original so beloved, alongside amateurish writing which didn't help. The shift from predominantly focusing on characterization in exemplification of themes from the first game to the shallow exploitation and manipulation of characterization to do so in the second gutted and cheapened the very soul of the experience that was TLoU, and as such, left it largely as nothing but an empty shell to convey a message of misery and nihilism that people are failing to see a point in. It's little wonder why.

How much is a sequel suppose to be like the first one and do you expect all games to follow it as law? Sarah was killed off in the first hour of the first game to drive the themes of the first game, your enemies are people too and that revenge is bad are themes that hardly ever get tackled, they are also very relevant to today. Love and loss are ones that have been done over and over so naturally we’re familiar with them a lot more.