Sony's philosophy on BC is deeply concerning for PS5, exposes their short terming thinking

Sony's stance over BC is pretty simple, they don't believe that people are going to use a next generation consoles. I think this is deeply troubling for PS5 and regards to PS4 BC on the console.

IMO if they are saying things like this about BC then it pretty shows their philosophy regarding BC for the next generation Consoles.

PS3 had a PS2 chip inside to ensure backwards compatibility, yet it was expensive to make and PS3 was a major money loss for years because of that. PS3 and PS4 can't do BC because of technical problems regarding Cell and X86-64.

It's possible that they may have technical problems getting BC onto the next gen PS5. The Ryzen and Jaguar architecture are significantly different and without abstraction for their software, their software will no longer be compatible due to the difference in the instruction set for the Ryzen Architecture and the PS4 software that ran on Jaguar. The PS4 had problems running PS4 games for a while and needed a boost mode and a specific patch to make it work.

We don't know about how the PS4 OS and it's applications are designed.

It's deeply concerning about Sony's stance on BC and the future of BC on PS5. If PS4 Pro had problems running PS4 games when running on essentially the same hardware but overclocked, imagine when everything is different inside the PS5.

I think it shows how long term Microsoft was when designing their Xbox OS, ALL their games are inside a VM, so it's more adaptive to architecture changes than what PS4 OS is.

It's from Sony and Microsoft is that we will expect only iterative upgrades to the current lineup, yet Sony doesn't believe in BC? Seems odd.

In all fairness, Sony is more concerned with making new games, and not just relying on old ones like some companies we know...**cough, cough, MS, cough, cough**

They want to sell you remasters, you know paying 50 euro for the same game with graphics overhaul

Rather have new games.

If they don't do BC for PS5 they are dead in the water. Its time to build an established ecosystem.

The tech industry disagrees. If you have no ecosystem, then you're DOA.

The industry is moving away from breaks in the console.

Metal X86 programs works across different X86 CPUs, the big problem for PS4 BC is resource tracking i.e. without extra checks, resource could arrive at different times on faster machines and causing a glitch or a crash. On game console emulators, sync timings between virtual CPU and virtual GPU is very important.

PS4 Pro's Boost Mode is just a small overclock and has BC issues which is similar to 1980s DOS games on faster PCs hence the existence for turbo mode button. Wintel PC has faced this issue a long time ago. Commodore Amiga was also a classic example with sync'ed CPU/GPU/Audio/DMA BC importance, hence it's very difficult to update the GPU.

X1X already has two SKUs i.e. retail version with 6.0 TFLOPS (40 CU) and dev version with 6.6 TF TFLOPS (44 CU). XBO is not yer typical game console and it was designed to scale e.g. a clean version for DirectX 11.X and DirectX12.

I always buy new consoles to play old games... Said no one ever. The only reason bc is so important for Xbox fanboys this gen is because their current gen games offering is pathetic. Thankfully, with Sony you don't have that problem.

oh dear god, ryzen/jaguar are not different architectures, they are x86. There are also no abstraction layers for CPU's really. Its compiled into x86 code and you move on with your life.

Sony's BC philosophy will go the way PSNow goes.

No, Sony wants to make more money through remasters :D

Sony's method is PSNow, and I'm not a fan. Don't give me streamed games, I want something that plays them straight up from a disc or a harddrive.

if they are not dead right now with the PS4, they wont be dead with the PS5, if that ever come out.

WTF is this speculation that is based on pure bullshit? Ryzen and Jaguar while different architectures are both x86 thus making your entire thread nonsense. This false pretense is not fooling anyone. "

"Sony's philosophy on BC is deeply concerning for PS5"

@daniel_su123:

Quote :

The tech industry disagrees. If you have no ecosystem, then you're DOA.

......

I don't see a problem for PS4. I don't buy a new-gen console to play old games.

Is it really though? I mean, Backwards Compatibility is great don't get me wrong, but is it a system selling feature? Nope. As long as PlayStation keep churning out those great games, I can confidently say they'll be sweet!

There have been 4 of these things, now. One of which that kept its bc through the whole gen. This shouldn't be new to anyone and frankly exposes your own short term thinking.

Marrying all of gaming to a single hardware platform is like buying fully into counter-innovative thought. The next Cell might be good. The next "unified shader" could be good. New bleeding edge DRAM technologies may emerge. You name it. Why turn a blind eye?

@daniel_su123: I agree. Everyone seems to think that it's a given that Sony's next console will be BC, but I wouldn't be so sure...

And yes, I definitely prefer MS's stance in this regard.

Imagine if Apple had this philosophy...nobody would want to upgrade.

@reduc_ab_: best 2nd post ever

A lem concern trolling the PS5? ? Why don't you worry about your gameless Xbone and let cows worry about the PS5. I'm pretty certain PS5 will offer BC since it will use the same x86 architecture as the PS4. Primary reason PS4 doesn't do this with PS3 is because CELL emulation is damn near impossible. They won't have that excuse once the PS5 rolls around.

Primary reason MS seems to care so about BC is because they are behind in sales and games and desperately need the 360's library to prop up the Xbone. Sony doesn't have that problem and frankly most PS4 owners don't care about going back to play PS3 games so Sony can get away with this.

@freedom01: Doubtful.. A good portion of people who bought a PS4 never owned a PS3.

I agree completely with you, but it's more about not putting the efforts in developing software being able to run these games though.

Sony should completely focus on the newest tech to create their console, and make it the best possible way there is for that time. But then they should start thinking about creating a BC team that will engineer software that can run on that hardware to emulate the PS4. Why should that be a problem? Why should we accept that they don't do this when Microsoft can do it for the original Xbox, and the Xbox 360?

Why can't they do both. It seems like Microsoft that exact case I'm talking about, adding BC doesn't drain resources.

Not adding BC when your competitor has complete BC with all their consoles is not a good look in the future. They should at least add PS2 compatibility.

Maybe it's to do with the fact that they don't know how to do it that doesn't tax performance.

I didn't buy a PS4 to play PS3 games and I won't be buying a PS5 to play PS4 games.

Indeed, that's my whole point. Just create the console how you want it, but then create a team to make it run BC games. Don't be cheap, and put the funds in it

Phew finally a topic for this. Was gonna make one last week.

Yeah I have a feeling the PS5 won't be b/c but sadly, I'd still likely feel compelled to buy it over XB if it will still allow me to GameFly and have their usual offerings from ND, SM, Bend, JPStud, JPN exclusives.

So people idiots in here... lets explain why they can't offer BC

1. Cell is MASSIVELY difficult if not impossible to emulate on current hardware due to freaky ass design and the sheer power required to brute it is not available.

2. Even the highest end PC can't emulate PS2's Emotion Engine at full speed in hundreds of games and you think PS4's CPU can?

3. Original Xbox had a Pentium 3, easiest CPU in the world to emulate

4. 360's CPU is no where near as customer and backwards as Cell making that really easy to emulate.

Sony made decisions in terms of hardware design for previous generation consoles that makes emulation difficult or nigh on impossible with current hardware, was Emotion Engine and Cell a bad choice? I don't think so, Sony went with the hardware choices they felt was right at the time and when designing a custom chip you won't really be thinking about BC for future consoles.

@leonkennedy97: again, if the PS4 is not dead right now due to not having BC, then it wont be dead even if the PS5 comes out.(if that ever comes out)

And this also goes to your quote "a good portion of PS4 owners never owned a PS3"

While BC is a nice feature, its not a system seller point, because people buy new consoles to play the latest games.

We don't know if that will continue to be the case though???

The reason why people don't care about it at the moment is because the console industry hasn't really kept BC with other consoles.

Since Microsoft is doing for the time being, it'll no doubt down the line become an important part of keeping an ecosystem intact.

Not keeping BC with PS4 is a risky move.

I bought one of these great ps2 or whatever gen games you always see people praise for the PS4.

It played like dirty ass. Games have evolved.

Who cares.

Aren't there a lot of PS2 emulators to be downloaded?

So I should spend hundreds on a console to play old games, **** that. Not saying I don't like old games but they should not be priority.

who said they had to be priority?

We're pretty much finished with generation breaks and moving onto an iterative model. I think Sony should get the picture as well.

I love how stupid Sony fans sound defending this. The whole by gamers for gamers really takes a shit here.

Xbox fans have stacks of Xbox and 360 games. Being able to use them still is incredible value.

The team working on BC has nothing to do with making new games so your whole "mah new games is more important" takes the piss.

Your post makes zero sense. I get you probably are just rushing to white knight Sony but at least think it through.

1- What is the hundreds to play old games? Are you saying Xbox has no new games? That is just weird since just a couple days ago they showed a bunch and add that to the others they already have for example the ones this year. There really is a Sony fan mental disorder where they have convinced themselves Xbox has no games. I mean they literally just showed games and still Sony fans say nothing is coming, it is bizarre.

2- Why do games all of a sudden go bad just because a gen goes from one to the next? Fact is Xbox fans get 3 generations of games on one console but Sony charges huge inflated prices to replay old games.

I can only speak from personal experience.

I mainly play Nintendo systems. And Nintendo have been very good with BC. But I've personally never used this feature. Not once. The GCN emulator on the Wii was never used. The Wii emulator on the Wii U was never used either. Likewise for their handheld line. And this is despite having a huge library of old games. I just have no desire to play old games I've already played before. I buy a new system to play *new* games. If I want to play older games, I can easily buy a console 2nd hand for cheap.

Furthermore, I've felt that BC has actually held Nintendo back technologically. This is why I'm really happy that Nintendo *finally* ditched the BC and actually built something from the ground up (the Switch).

You mean like Halo MCC and Gears ultimate.?

Xbox One owners have played over 500 million hours of backwards compatibility

Clearly there is a demand. They also say around 50% of users have used backwards compatibility. Keep in mind BC was not available at launch so this is just in a couple years. Half the user base has enjoyed the option.

Also it is Nintendo being cheap that has held Nintendo back technologically. Look at their tech compared to the other two. Xbox has the most powerful console ever and also has BC for 3 generations on the current console. Do not blame BC.

@CanYouDiglt: How the **** did you extrapolate that nonsense from what I said. I don't invest in new consoles to play old games, if they are available I'll probably play them but it is not a major selling point for me. I'm not white knighting Sony can't say the same for you lot though hey demand some 1st party exclusives and maybe Xbox might interest me again 360 was good.

Yes and from more than 1,300 xbox 360 games only like 300 work and most of does are indies and arcade games,the best majority of retail games don't work for example 9 old sonic games work but GTA5 doesn't,Modern Warfare 1,2,3 don't and many others.

The xbox one should be pulling its own weight with new games not reliving old glory days,and when the PS3 had more than 5,000 by backward compatibility in 2006 non of you cry babies cared and for like 3 years claimed the PS3 had no games..

Why the next CELL? Intel AVX has 1024 bit SIMD road map. Intel Skylake X has dual 512 bit AVX-512 FMAC units.

http://www.electronicdesign.com/dsps/intels-avx-scales-1024-bit-vector-math

The width of the XMM (eXtended MultiMedia) register set has also increased from 128- to 256-bits. AVX is designed to handle 512-bit and 1024-bit registers

@tormentos: hahaha! Your salt is real. GTAV just proved you have no idea what the hell is going on.

IMO they somehow think Microsoft's Xbox teams can't multitask.

If PS5 has no BC whatsoever I think it'll be a disaster for them.

It's much more tricky for Sony to create BC that isn't taxing on performance.

1. Let's see... Persona 5, God of War 3... emulated and playable! Not impossible.

That's just free time programmers.

Each SPE has 256 KB local memory hence it needs 1:1 with Core i7's 256 KB L2 cache counterpart. Normal Core i7 SKUs only has 4 CPU cores and exceeding CPU's L2 256 KB limit, causes L3 cache fall back.

Intel Skylake X CPU core's L2 cache has 1024 KB which is higher than Kabylake CPU core's 256 KB L2 cache.

The key for emulation low latency and storage size.

2. What PS2 game has problems on PC's PS2 emulators? Sony already has PS2 emulator on PS4. https://gamerant.com/ps2-emulation-titles-ps4-full-list/ PS4 owners needs to pay for it's use.

3. Modern X86 code has more unpredictable code stream. SPU's unroll and static branch optimizations are predictable.

4. X360 PPE has VMX-128 i.e. 128 bit Altivec SIMD with 128 registers which is not yer normal 128 bit Altivec SIMD with 32 registers. SPE has 128 bit kitbash Altivec SIMD with 128 registers. Each SPE has 256 KB local memory to force programmers towards tiling programming.

The problem with CELL is the requirement to emulate 1 PPE + 6 SPUs while X360 only has 3 PPE.

@reduc_ab_: yet we have another SOC game being remaster and the crash trilogy remastered such newness ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1. You named 2 games? And they don't run perfect or flawless either..... My point still stands.

2. Loads of PS2 games are still completely broken and unplayable, mainly due to some games using EE in funky ways creating issues with the emulation, it's getting better but still not able to emulate most games to at least PS2 levels.

3. My point still stands and you have no reason at all to bring up SPU's.

4. As above.

60m PS4's out there, yeah BC really important. PS5 (if there will be) doesn't need it.

If you are a moron who sells your PS4, tough shit.

1. Emulation wasn't in same translation quality as Apple's Rosetta with static translation cache. XBO's X360 BC has static translation cache.

They are payable and 4790K's four 256 KB L2 cache pool wasn't even 1:1 with six SPE 256 KB local memory pool.

Once I upgrade to Skylake X. I'll revisit this problem.

2. Name an example?

3. Your point doesn't stand.

4. As above.