Sony files a new patent for legacy emulation

Neither did I. I have more current gen games on my HDD then BC games. I'm sorry, are you one of those people that think only exclusives are games?

Nothing wrong with you enjoying your Xbox. I just don't see the value proposition in it for me, considering I have a capable PC and MS releases their games on PC.

Understood. I dont see anything wrong with that or MS supporting the thing that they made themselves with, Windows.

But we know how SW works bro. It was said by Sony and all over by cows: Who wants to play old games? So people liking it now is funny.

64GB is one game or so. Would be smarter to have something ala Intel Optane that sits around 16-32GB or so for shorter loading times.

I don't have many games for PS4, but I already felt it necessary to switch out the 500GB drive with a 2TB one.

@horgen:

Something like octane would be far too expensive than cheap eMMC.

The point of the small eMMc would be so the user could buy a platter based drive while still getting SSD like load times or even run the game off the optical drive with the engine and assets cached to the eMMc.

It essentially makes storage media format a non issue, giving the user choices, and reduces the cost while keeping the performance of solid state drives and cache. It’s a win win for everyone.

My bad. I forgot what EMMC actually was. I will say it complicates matters though, as it requires you to buy something else as well ( at least if not an optical drive is included). I guess there will also be a smaller internal SSD/HDD for save files?

@horgen:

The eMMc drive would be the standard internal drive for all models. It could be as small as 32-64GB. But I would wager 64GB minimum because the prices now are so low.

Well I don’t think Next Gen games will actually release on optical drives anyway. Nintendo delayed their 64GB carts until 2019 and I think that’s the year flash ram becomes viable for single use at 64GB. Current PS4/XBO Blu-rays are only 50GB.

If they went for optical drives which are dying anyway, they would have the cost of that, which have higher breakages due to moving parts, plus lower capacity and load times, makes the system larger,hotter, draws more power, etc. from a cost perspective there’s no reason to include an optical drive except for back compatibility which could be achieved with a separate device and would essentially pay for the back compatibility R&D on its own as a product. PSN games would still work of course.

But realistically, if games shipped on 64GB cards you could realistically have enough room to house any game patches plus game saves on the card without ever touching the internal eMMc drive plus the faster load times and complete removable of the “install” time, all for the cost of putting a card reader in your drive.

Man this next generation just keeps getting more and more exciting. The battle between Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo is going to be epic. So good for the industry.

@cainetao11:lol, yea, you're right, it's funny. I think it all depends what your preferences are. From a priority standpoint, legacy (PS1 - PS3) BC is a cool side feature, but honestly, I could live without it. If Sony came up with a way to not only allow me to play my legacy games, but also enhance them to 1080p, that would be cool. But if that was the only thing Sony had to offer, screw that. I think what MS did for their fans is significant. It reminds us in the value of our old games. They should get credit for that. For PS5, it would really be stupid for Sony to not include backwards compatibility for at least PS4. That's like a no brainer in my opinion.

Ive always liked BC. I remember getting the Master System adapter for my Genesis. I still own a 60 gig launch PS3 with the full BC. If PS4 had been BC to some extant I would've packed up my PS3. I still play classics I love from 8 bit to last gen. I still watch the Godfather, A Streetcar Named Desire once in a while also. I dont leave what I like. I like to bring it with me.

It'll be BC with PS4 imo. People on this forum love to point out hypocrisy (that's what I was having a laugh about) like its so rare and any human is innocent of it.

lol, I'm not sure if I could compare movies to games, but I get your point. Yea, I hear ya. I think there is some hypocrisy with the whole "movie game" thing. I mean, Xbox released a game (Quantum Break), that literally had live action cut scenes in it. And you literally chose which scene was next, lol.

I would expect PS at least

@SolidGame_basic: Since when is backwards compatibility a patent-worthy feature? PCs have had backwards compatibility for decades. Heck my Commodore 128 had a Commodore 64 mode built-in for that express purpose. And now Sony wants to patent this? Give me a break.

@michaelmikado: possibly a legal one, after all MS couldn't just swipe of the hand move its digital Xbox 360 titles to XB1 but it has taken time to get there, likely need to negotiate with publishers, but it's an effort that will take time I imagine, which is shame if only now Sony starts to play catching up (if they even do this in the manner we are talking), but if so at least steps in right direction, they have a lot to offer with BC for me

Plus if Sony reinforces such a standard I hope that would give Nintendo an example to follow

hopefully all parties going forward work into the release on their platform abilities to make it easier to release digital titles from previous eras on future systems without this kind of hassle

@SolidGame_basic: lol, I'm not sure if I could compare movies to games, but I get your point. Yea, I hear ya. I think there is some hypocrisy with the whole "movie game" thing. I mean, Xbox released a game (Quantum Break), that literally had live action cut scenes in it. And you literally chose which scene was next, lol.

Excellent point.

Entertainment is entertainment to me. I can still watch Raging Bull from time to time, listen to Pink Floyd still and play Half Life every once in a while.

It would be nice to have access to all the games I purchased online before now. Even games I bought on ps3 like Dayyyytooonnnaaaaa.

lol, don't know man. I'm sure there is a reason for it.

The PS4 can't play PS3 games the Jaguar inside the PS4 is a shitty weak CPU, the xbox one can because the xbox 360 CPU was a shitty weak CPU that the jaguar has no problem emulating.

Is simply an impossibility.

The

Come on dude the PS2 was backward compatible with the PS1 before the damn xbox even existed.

MS has backward compatibility because they got their ass handed to them, they saw is something sony can't do on PS4 and try to capitalize on it, the PS4 can't emulate PS3 games it can't the Jaguar inside it is a piece or shit.

The only reason the xbox one emulate 360 games is because the 360 CPU is weak it doesn't take much to emulate, look at how cell with just 5 SPE working chew and spit the Xenon CPU and it even beat the PS4 Jaguar a 6th SPE would have beat the xbox one as well.

The complexity of Cell and the ability to run GPU process make it impossible to emulate by the Jaguar inside the PS4.

But with that out of the way no one is buying and xbox one to play 360 games, I certainly didn't buy a PS4 to play PS3 games and you didn't buy an xbox one to play xbox 360 games, as BC on xbox one was an after thought it wasn't on launch nor was advertised period.

BC is a nice feature specially on launch were few games are available and you have to make do, see the PS3 launch you have few games but backed by 8,000+ games from 2 past generation, but people didn't care they wanted a cheaper PS3 more than a PS3 that could actually play BC games.

As I say many times the moment the PS get BC again is the moment it will stop mattering to lemmings, just like it didn't matter when the 360 was on its first years, lemmings were to busy playing new fresh and great games to care and that is what has change and what has make BC some how relevant the lack of great games on xbox, that prompted many to dive head first into 360 games.

@tormentos: no MS had backwards compat last gen with 360 to og Xbox as well dude. Was it because they were getting their ass kicked then? You’re acting like this is the first gen they did emulation BC.

I dont bother reading most of your posts as they don’t apply to me. I told Solidgame_basic I like BC, always have. I never compared one with the other. I laughed at SW behavior.

@joshrmeyer: But they don't? I mean, every single article about BC games on Xbox receives an inane amount of hate from cows.

Of course ps5 will be BC with PS4, they'd be stupid not to, and of course gamers will benefit.

This gen there was no BC last gen they got into the BC train because sony was already there.

This gen MS didn't had BC period it was an afterthought not something planned since launch and you will not find MS on E3 2013 talking about BC at all.

It is pretty easy to see why MS does things, they have been doing 180's since the gen started BC and Cross play are 2 of such moves.

I also like to add that MS had no intention of doing BC on their next-gen Xbox One before it was launch. MS kept on stating it's not possible and that's only because the Kinect mandatory was all in their minds. But it sure did surprise Sony though, they thought it's impossible but MS was able to do it.

But yeah, MS didn't want to do BC and after the fall of Kinect, MS had to do something to turn the ship around.

I'm not that interested in bc with PS1, PS2 and PS3. Most games, especially on PS2, aged terribly.

I do hope PS5 gives me the ability to play all my PS4 games, and not via emulation.

@PAL360: for me the PS5 BC value totem pole would be PS4>PS1>PS3>PS2. I'm not ranking the systems from best to worst, but how strong my desire is to still play my old discs on new hardware

Gonna be completely honest, I kinda want PS5 to not have BC while the next Xbox does, just to see what would happen.

@xantufrog: That's exactly how i would put it! I still love the retro look of PS1 games, but i can't enjoy PS2 ones anymore. They are like versions of modern games, but running at 20fps, with dated mechanics, terrible voice acting, etc...

@PAL360: What? Most (almost all) ps2 games run at 60 to 30 fps. There are a lot more ps1 games that run like crap and have a draw distance of 3 feet.

The entire console was shifted from what was planned at launch so that's a stupid statement. Spencer made his case once he got the reigns. Games you buy should go with you. His vision for the X1 wasn't exactly what Mattrick's was.

I dont really care about this stuff much anyway. I like my consoles and like BC. I dont give a shit why its there, how its accomplished. None of this matters, dude. Play video games for god's sake.

@vfighter: I think that's how you remember them. Play them now and they may not feel as good.

Some games did aim/run at 60fps, but those were rare. Damn, Shadow of the Colossus runs at 15fps on PS2, and that's an example of a highly praised game. Today a drop to 29fps is not even acceptable...that's how high standards are now.

As for PS1, i forgive the limitations because i like the retro/pixelated look of its games. Same reason why i still love to play 8 and 16bit games.

@sealionact: The limited BC on Xbox One 2 years after launch was nothing to brag about. Any added feature is a plus, but it doesn't affect me as I still have my PS3, which I never play anyways. It's different this gen, or next gen... I have over 300+ digital games. It would be nice to be able to play them on a PS5. Last gen I had a 80gb HDD so I have almost all discs and a few digital freebies from ps plus. No one can say BC is a bad thing, it was just funny how it was hyped as "free" BC(like you didn't need to buy the game or that BC was ever charged before lol)

And like I said, majority of the Xbox One changed from what it was planned to be at launch including the leadership and corporate importance as seen by money funneled into studios over the last year.

None of this changes the fact that there is hypocrisy in SW which is what Solidgame and I teased about. Its not serious.

@cainetao11: I get that SolidGame wants to root for PS4 but at this point, it already won. No point in trying to defend it.

I dont believe I defended anything. I teased about hypocrisy and pointed out how everyone is guilty sometimes.

It would give me an excuse to re-buy older Playstation games that I threw out due to only having PS3 slims & and PS4. It would be neat but I guess it's just a dream at this point. :(

@cainetao11: " I teased about hypocrisy and pointed out how everyone is guilty sometimes."

I agree. Alot of inconsistencies among fanboys across the board.

@tormentos said:

The

@cainetao11 said:

Understood. I dont see anything wrong with that or MS supporting the thing that they made themselves with, Windows.

But we know how SW works bro. It was said by Sony and all over by cows: Who wants to play old games? So people liking it now is funny.

Come on dude the PS2 was backward compatible with the PS1 before the damn xbox even existed.

MS has backward compatibility because they got their ass handed to them, they saw is something sony can't do on PS4 and try to capitalize on it, the PS4 can't emulate PS3 games it can't the Jaguar inside it is a piece or shit.

The only reason the xbox one emulate 360 games is because the 360 CPU is weak it doesn't take much to emulate, look at how cell with just 5 SPE working chew and spit the Xenon CPU and it even beat the PS4 Jaguar a 6th SPE would have beat the xbox one as well.

The complexity of Cell and the ability to run GPU process make it impossible to emulate by the Jaguar inside the PS4.

But with that out of the way no one is buying and xbox one to play 360 games, I certainly didn't buy a PS4 to play PS3 games and you didn't buy an xbox one to play xbox 360 games, as BC on xbox one was an after thought it wasn't on launch nor was advertised period.

BC is a nice feature specially on launch were few games are available and you have to make do, see the PS3 launch you have few games but backed by 8,000+ games from 2 past generation, but people didn't care they wanted a cheaper PS3 more than a PS3 that could actually play BC games.

As I say many times the moment the PS get BC again is the moment it will stop mattering to lemmings, just like it didn't matter when the 360 was on its first years, lemmings were to busy playing new fresh and great games to care and that is what has change and what has make BC some how relevant the lack of great games on xbox, that prompted many to dive head first into 360 games.

6 SPU's estimated score 126 at 3.2 Ghz

PS4 Pro's six CPU estimated score 135 at 2.1 Ghz

Xbox One X's six CPU estimated score 148 at 2.3 Ghz

PS4's six CPU estimated score 206 at 3.2 Ghz , design a box with fat PS3's 200 watts target instead of PS4's 150 watts target. PS3 BC can be done with PS4's CPU IP when TDP budget targets fat PS3. PS3 BC wasn't a priority for PS4

7th CPU core was later unlocked for both XBO and PS4

I don't think that was the reason, it has more to do with the fact that they can have something sony doesn't have.

And they bragged about it endlessly.

Just like cross play.

That is the problem Ron you are talking hypothetically as no PS4 runs its CPU at 3.2ghz.

And even still I don't think 2X result on a 3.2 ghz ps4 jaguar would be enough for full emulation of everything cell.

BC wasn't a priority for the xbox either, it was an afterthought and MS was lucky that the xbox one CPU had 3X times more performance then the Xenon CPU.

I find it hard to believe that SONY will make the PS5 completely backward compatible. I can see them doing so with the PS4, but highly unlikely 3,2, or even 1... UNLESS they are charging you a one time fee to run the games. If this is a "download from our servers and the disc is just to prove you own the game" kind of thing, then it isn't backward compatible either. It would be nice to just pop the disc in of any previous console and play it, but I don't see that happening. They would lose too much money from selling the older games on their digital store front.

Gotta love the contradiction.

OT: Smart idea, they'll need more stuff like this going forward to counter Xbox's more gamer-friendly features. It's not something I would use much, but it would be a nice option to do some gaming with the kids.

1. Xenos GPU BC was built into XBO GPU since it has custom modification with native FP10 support.

2. AMD CPU/GPU IP has virtual machine instruction set to speed up emulation and virtualisation.

3. CPU emulation team was from Virtual PC and Windows NT with CPU translators (Apple's style Rosetta) builds e.g. Windows Itanium Edition has fast X86 CPU translators. Itanium has 128 register CPU, hence it's not the first time for MS CPU emulation team handling 128 register model CPU. IBM PPE is 32 register CPU with 128 register SIMD units hybrid, hence it's less radical CPU design when compared to Itanium's full 128 register model. Modern x86 CPU design has level 0 cache and large register wheel to compete against Itanium's 128 register model.

AMD APU IP includes hardware features to support emulation and virtualization acceleration, but these hardware features are nothing without hypervisor software. MS has requested AMD to change TLB cache to improve virtualization beyond's PC's Jaguar CPU specs with X1X's Jaguar CPU design.

If you read https://www.infoq.com/news/2018/07/android-emulator-amd-hyperv open source programmers modified Intel Hardware Accelerated Execution Manager (HAXM) for AMD's hardware accelerated virtual machine instruction set.

For Microsoft Hypervisor software

WHPX enables the creation of virtual processors that can emulate instructions taking advantage of the accelerators provided by the underlying hardware processor.

You can't argue MS's BC was an afterthought when AMD has budgeted silicon space to speed up emulation i.e. server CPU features are landing on embedded CPUs and Microsoft has invested $$$$ into it's hypervisor software.

On silicon conservation, Intel and AMD's hardware accelerated virtualization instruction set method is better than Sony's fat PS3's BC method.

For Sony, PS5 would probably bring Sony's hypervisior software tech into maturity.

@tormentos: Whatever dude. You take this shit too seriously