Sony caught off guard and a little dumbfounded by MS

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ronvalencia

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#51  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@gifford38 said:

omg you have no idea what mark did with the ps5.

he did not talk about everything in the deep dive.

ps5 power is were mark wanted it.

the tempest will help the cpu. see 3d audio or just the audio was always done by softwere that the cpu had to run but now with the tempest chip its hardwired into the system so no software is needed making all there audio going to the tempest instead of using the cpu. this way even the third party can take advantage of it and has no reason not to use it because it is hardwired into the system.

the ssd will help the gpu. the gpu was designed with a thing called the scrubber. which scrubs out textures behind you so the gpu only has to run that is in front of you. the gpu working with the ssd loading in assets as you turn in the game to face another direction.

there is a reason there talking so much about the ssd because they built the ps5 around the ssd. there not just using it to do standard ssd functions. this is why developers are saying that word revolutionary.

there is more to the ps5 that there keeping silent. there is a reason they didn't talk power is because mark made it so that they didn't need that power to get the most out of there system. made a balanced system that can run in different ways. if the gpu needs more power they use some of the cpu and vise versa. gpu can use the ssd for some assets to load in at that moment in the game.

i have hard time explaining something so i hope you can understand what im saying.

SSD wouldn't help with the highest memory bandwidth/low memory storage render target workloads.

7 to 9 GB/s memory bandwidth is about on par with old PCI-E 16 lane version 2.0 bandwidth or old 128bit DDR2-533 memory bandwidth.

Microsoft has an "adaptive texture stream" feature as shown from FS2020.

Loading Video...
Loading Video...
  • Adaptive texture stream technology demonstration
  • Online mode texture stream
  • Offline mode texture stream
  • Local cache mode texture stream
  • Simulator: Planet Earth via Azure Bing map

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ronvalencia

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#52  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts
@gifford38 said:
@BlackShirt20 said:

@gifford38: If you don’t think Sony is scared you are insane. They spent one hour talking about audio and SSD’s at a developer talk for gaming. Doesn’t mention what the machine is capable of as far as performance. Microsoft has shown many demos and games. Sony? Nothing. So yeah, Sony is behind currently.

why would they talk about the gpu when the developers know what gpu is in the ps5? dev's know what a gpu/cpu does but he does give us the number for the gpu/cpu which is all he had to tell the developers. they do not know how fast the ssd and what it does to develop for. they did not know about tempest chip and how it is hardwired in and doesn't need software to run it to free up cpu series x has a sound card to but not as powerful as the tempest. see what you don't get is how the ps5 is built around the ssd using it as type of ram. show many demos of games? hell blade 2 and halo wow so many. yes today they willl be show third party but all of them are on the ps5 as well. besides there not going to reveal all of the system inside parts. how do we know after what the showed they didn't turn off cameras and he showed more to the developers that we don't see.

Tempest is based on AMD's CU technology i.e. refer to AMD's True Audio Next which includes audio raytracing. https://gpuopen.com/true-audio-next/

Sony couldn't afford using graphics 36 CU for DSP audio workload and has asked AMD to include an extra CU for DSP audio work. Tempest has about 100 GFLOPS.

XSX GPU has 12.147 TFLOPS shaders and more than 13 TFLOPS raytracing.

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-features-dedicated-audio-chip-confirms-microsoft

XSX also has a custom audio chip to be revealed in the future.

https://wccftech.com/xbox-series-x-confirmed-to-have-dedicated-audio-chip-sound-developers-wont-have-to-fight-programmers-and-artists-for-memory-and-cpu-power/

As reported by VGC (thanks for the tip, MK), Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante confirmed that the Xbox Series X dedicated audio chip of the new console will grant sound developers all the power they need without having to fight programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

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#53 npiet1
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@jeezers said:
Its an easy decision for me to go Xbox once I decide to upgrade to next gen.

Untill then I got my PC, ps4, and switch so I'm in no rush.

What's the point of getting an Xbox if you already have a pc? All the games on xbox are available on PC.

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ronvalencia

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#54 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@pc_rocks said:
@gifford38 said:

omg you have no idea what mark did with the ps5.

he did not talk about everything in the deep dive.

ps5 power is were mark wanted it.

the tempest will help the cpu. see 3d audio or just the audio was always done by softwere that the cpu had to run but now with the tempest chip its hardwired into the system so no software is needed making all there audio going to the tempest instead of using the cpu. this way even the third party can take advantage of it and has no reason not to use it because it is hardwired into the system.

the ssd will help the gpu. the gpu was designed with a thing called the scrubber. which scrubs out textures behind you so the gpu only has to run that is in front of you. the gpu working with the ssd loading in assets as you turn in the game to face another direction.

there is a reason there talking so much about the ssd because they built the ps5 around the ssd. there not just using it to do standard ssd functions. this is why developers are saying that word revolutionary.

there is more to the ps5 that there keeping silent. there is a reason they didn't talk power is because mark made it so that they didn't need that power to get the most out of there system. made a balanced system that can run in different ways. if the gpu needs more power they use some of the cpu and vise versa. gpu can use the ssd for some assets to load in at that moment in the game.

i have hard time explaining something so i hope you can understand what im saying.

This is nothing new. Has been a standard in games and game engines since decades to cull the triangles out of your viewing frustum. All GPUs has it. SSD won't be helping the GPU at all. GPU don't even see the SSD or knows about it.

That's why people shouldn't talk about things they have no idea about.

Some GPU hardware culling doesn't work e.g. Vega's 4 input triangles with 4 output triangles per cycle comically failed at backface culling. AMD workaround is to use compute shaders to cull the triangles.

NAVI 10's backface culling has 8 input triangles with 4 output triangles per cycle.

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tormentos

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#55 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 31496 Posts

@ronvalencia said:

Tempest is based on AMD's CU technology i.e. refer to AMD's True Audio Next which includes audio raytracing. https://gpuopen.com/true-audio-next/

Sony couldn't afford using graphics 36 CU for DSP audio workload and has asked AMD to include an extra CU for DSP audio work. Tempest has about 100 GFLOPS.

XSX GPU has 12.147 TFLOPS shaders and more than 13 TFLOPS raytracing.

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-features-dedicated-audio-chip-confirms-microsoft

XSX also has a custom audio chip to be revealed in the future.

https://wccftech.com/xbox-series-x-confirmed-to-have-dedicated-audio-chip-sound-developers-wont-have-to-fight-programmers-and-artists-for-memory-and-cpu-power/

As reported by VGC (thanks for the tip, MK), Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante confirmed that the Xbox Series X dedicated audio chip of the new console will grant sound developers all the power they need without having to fight programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

Ron we already knew MS had hardware dedicated for Audio,and we knew sony used a CU modify which is what is known as Tempest.

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Gifford38

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#56 Gifford38
Member since 2020 • 1035 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@gifford38 said:
@BlackShirt20 said:

@gifford38: If you don’t think Sony is scared you are insane. They spent one hour talking about audio and SSD’s at a developer talk for gaming. Doesn’t mention what the machine is capable of as far as performance. Microsoft has shown many demos and games. Sony? Nothing. So yeah, Sony is behind currently.

why would they talk about the gpu when the developers know what gpu is in the ps5? dev's know what a gpu/cpu does but he does give us the number for the gpu/cpu which is all he had to tell the developers. they do not know how fast the ssd and what it does to develop for. they did not know about tempest chip and how it is hardwired in and doesn't need software to run it to free up cpu series x has a sound card to but not as powerful as the tempest. see what you don't get is how the ps5 is built around the ssd using it as type of ram. show many demos of games? hell blade 2 and halo wow so many. yes today they willl be show third party but all of them are on the ps5 as well. besides there not going to reveal all of the system inside parts. how do we know after what the showed they didn't turn off cameras and he showed more to the developers that we don't see.

Tempest is based on AMD's CU technology i.e. refer to AMD's True Audio Next which includes audio raytracing. https://gpuopen.com/true-audio-next/

Sony couldn't afford using graphics 36 CU for DSP audio workload and has asked AMD to include an extra CU for DSP audio work. Tempest has about 100 GFLOPS.

XSX GPU has 12.147 TFLOPS shaders and more than 13 TFLOPS raytracing.

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-features-dedicated-audio-chip-confirms-microsoft

XSX also has a custom audio chip to be revealed in the future.

https://wccftech.com/xbox-series-x-confirmed-to-have-dedicated-audio-chip-sound-developers-wont-have-to-fight-programmers-and-artists-for-memory-and-cpu-power/

As reported by VGC (thanks for the tip, MK), Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante confirmed that the Xbox Series X dedicated audio chip of the new console will grant sound developers all the power they need without having to fight programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

tempest is a spu architecture like the ps3 in fact it is as powerful as the ps3. and is hardwired in so the developers have no reason not to use it. it's already in the system.

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ronvalencia

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#57 ronvalencia
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@tormentos said:
@ronvalencia said:

Tempest is based on AMD's CU technology i.e. refer to AMD's True Audio Next which includes audio raytracing. https://gpuopen.com/true-audio-next/

Sony couldn't afford using graphics 36 CU for DSP audio workload and has asked AMD to include an extra CU for DSP audio work. Tempest has about 100 GFLOPS.

XSX GPU has 12.147 TFLOPS shaders and more than 13 TFLOPS raytracing.

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-features-dedicated-audio-chip-confirms-microsoft

XSX also has a custom audio chip to be revealed in the future.

https://wccftech.com/xbox-series-x-confirmed-to-have-dedicated-audio-chip-sound-developers-wont-have-to-fight-programmers-and-artists-for-memory-and-cpu-power/

As reported by VGC (thanks for the tip, MK), Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante confirmed that the Xbox Series X dedicated audio chip of the new console will grant sound developers all the power they need without having to fight programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

Ron we already knew MS had hardware dedicated for Audio,and we knew sony used a CU modify which is what is known as Tempest.

@gifford38 claimed, "they did not know about tempest chip and how it is hardwired in and doesn't need software to run it to free up cpu series x has a sound card to but not as powerful as the tempest."

gifford38 effectively claimed XSX's audio solution consumes CPU resources with basic HDA codecs.

My post debunks gifford38's fake news.

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ronvalencia

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#58  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@gifford38 said:
@ronvalencia said:
@gifford38 said:

why would they talk about the gpu when the developers know what gpu is in the ps5? dev's know what a gpu/cpu does but he does give us the number for the gpu/cpu which is all he had to tell the developers. they do not know how fast the ssd and what it does to develop for. they did not know about tempest chip and how it is hardwired in and doesn't need software to run it to free up cpu series x has a sound card to but not as powerful as the tempest. see what you don't get is how the ps5 is built around the ssd using it as type of ram. show many demos of games? hell blade 2 and halo wow so many. yes today they willl be show third party but all of them are on the ps5 as well. besides there not going to reveal all of the system inside parts. how do we know after what the showed they didn't turn off cameras and he showed more to the developers that we don't see.

Tempest is based on AMD's CU technology i.e. refer to AMD's True Audio Next which includes audio raytracing. https://gpuopen.com/true-audio-next/

Sony couldn't afford using graphics 36 CU for DSP audio workload and has asked AMD to include an extra CU for DSP audio work. Tempest has about 100 GFLOPS.

XSX GPU has 12.147 TFLOPS shaders and more than 13 TFLOPS raytracing.

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-features-dedicated-audio-chip-confirms-microsoft

XSX also has a custom audio chip to be revealed in the future.

https://wccftech.com/xbox-series-x-confirmed-to-have-dedicated-audio-chip-sound-developers-wont-have-to-fight-programmers-and-artists-for-memory-and-cpu-power/

As reported by VGC (thanks for the tip, MK), Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante confirmed that the Xbox Series X dedicated audio chip of the new console will grant sound developers all the power they need without having to fight programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

tempest is a spu architecture like the ps3 in fact it is as powerful as the ps3. and is hardwired in so the developers have no reason not to use it. it's already in the system.

AMD's CU has both cache and local data store (LDS) regime. Sony asked AMD to modify CU IP for LDS only operations and remove graphics hardware e.g. TMUs, TFUs, links to geometry and RBEs (render backends, ROPS).

SPU is all about ALU and LSD.

CDNA is related to RDNA without graphics hardware.

Tempest still has AMD's wavefront processing which doesn't exist on IBM's SPU.

It's cheaper to license from AMD's bundled IP cost when compared to separate IPs i.e. paying IBM's IP + AMD's IP.

AMD's 3 for 1 bundled deal beats separate IBM CPU + AMD GPU (or NVIDIA GPU) + DSP deal. AMD has priced the competition out of the market.

AMD has a large selection of IP to choose from. It will be difficult to match AMD's "bang per buck" leadership with PS5's configuration when AMD is using the large PC industry to off-set the R&D cost for game consoles.

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#59 Gifford38
Member since 2020 • 1035 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@tormentos said:
@ronvalencia said:

Tempest is based on AMD's CU technology i.e. refer to AMD's True Audio Next which includes audio raytracing. https://gpuopen.com/true-audio-next/

Sony couldn't afford using graphics 36 CU for DSP audio workload and has asked AMD to include an extra CU for DSP audio work. Tempest has about 100 GFLOPS.

XSX GPU has 12.147 TFLOPS shaders and more than 13 TFLOPS raytracing.

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-features-dedicated-audio-chip-confirms-microsoft

XSX also has a custom audio chip to be revealed in the future.

https://wccftech.com/xbox-series-x-confirmed-to-have-dedicated-audio-chip-sound-developers-wont-have-to-fight-programmers-and-artists-for-memory-and-cpu-power/

As reported by VGC (thanks for the tip, MK), Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante confirmed that the Xbox Series X dedicated audio chip of the new console will grant sound developers all the power they need without having to fight programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

Ron we already knew MS had hardware dedicated for Audio,and we knew sony used a CU modify which is what is known as Tempest.

@gifford38 claimed, "they did not know about tempest chip and how it is hardwired in and doesn't need software to run it to free up cpu series x has a sound card to but not as powerful as the tempest."

gifford38 effectively claimed XSX's audio solution consumes CPU resources with basic HDA codecs.

My post debunks gifford38's fake news.

what fake news? 3d audio is usually done by software but sony made it part of the hardware instead. all im saying is the developers do not have to create the 3d sound software in there games to run there 3d sound.

the ps5 does it itself. they create the sound in there game then the ps5 makes it 3d audio. the developers do not have to create the 3d sound. tempest is also there for developers to use it for other cpu functions if they choose to. but i'm not getting into that right now. but yes the tempest is more effective than the series x sound solution in there system. the sound quality on ps5 will be better than the series x in there games.

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ronvalencia

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#60  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@gifford38 said:
@ronvalencia said:

@gifford38 claimed, "they did not know about tempest chip and how it is hardwired in and doesn't need software to run it to free up cpu series x has a sound card to but not as powerful as the tempest."

gifford38 effectively claimed XSX's audio solution consumes CPU resources with basic HDA codecs.

My post debunks gifford38's fake news.

what fake news? 3d audio is usually done by software but sony made it part of the hardware instead. all im saying is the developers do not have to create the 3d sound software in there games to run there 3d sound.

the ps5 does it itself. they create the sound in there game then the ps5 makes it 3d audio. the developers do not have to create the 3d sound. tempest is also there for developers to use it for other cpu functions if they choose to. but i'm not getting into that right now. but yes the tempest is more effective than the series x sound solution in there system. the sound quality on ps5 will be better than the series x in there games.

On XBO and X1X, Dolby Atmos 3D audio render is done on hardware DSPs (digital signal processors). Audio middleware software runs on DSP hardware i.e. hardware accelerated.

For PC, NVIDIA is working on audio middleware and hardware acceleration with RTX Turing. RTX Ampere has further RT core improvements.

AMD is updating it's "True Audio Next" web page for incoming PC's RDNA 2.

Current "True Audio Next" already has audio raytracing via Radeon Rays (software GPU shaders BVH raytracing) and ready to switch towards hardware acceleration when PC's RDNA 2 arrives with RT cores.

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Sevenizz

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#61 Sevenizz
Member since 2010 • 4939 Posts

@virusvaccine21: Sony lost a huge market share in gen 7. Sure they’ve gained some back this gen, but no where near gen 6 numbers - not even close. Next gen they can only go down more. This hurts software sales. The only numbers that matter as you don’t make money selling consoles.

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jeezers

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#62 jeezers
Member since 2007 • 4780 Posts

@npiet1 said:
@jeezers said:
Its an easy decision for me to go Xbox once I decide to upgrade to next gen.

Untill then I got my PC, ps4, and switch so I'm in no rush.

What's the point of getting an Xbox if you already have a pc? All the games on xbox are available on PC.

no immidiate upgrade, im trying to wait about 1.5-2 years, but i have a very large og xbox/ 360 game collection id like to be able to use on newer hardware. also im already playing through my account on PC with game pass and cross saves matter for me.

being able to save a game on my PC and then continue it on my living room console is very nice, when the gf is watching some thing like "the voice" i can go to the office play on PC and play something else which is fine, but being able to continue the same game would be great!

Most of the games ive put serious time into on PS4 tend to be multiplats, i enjoyed some of the exclusives (spiderman, ratchet and clank, bloodborne) but i never replay them, i would get more playtime having halo, gears, forza, along with multiplats..

The new xbox seems to slightly more powerfull and gamepass is awesome, im curious to see how Xcloud ends up being in the future as well, potential to be a serious game changer for gaming as a whole.

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TheGrat1

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#63 TheGrat1
Member since 2008 • 4298 Posts

447 million home consoles sold. Sony is the master Microsoft is but the learner.

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VFighter

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#64 VFighter  Online
Member since 2016 • 6912 Posts

@Sevenizz: Lol, what kind of BS is this?

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Sevenizz

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#65 Sevenizz
Member since 2010 • 4939 Posts

@vfighter: Reading comprehension not your strong suit?

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#66 VFighter  Online
Member since 2016 • 6912 Posts

@Sevenizz: You're right of course, I am having a hard time fully comprehending that much BS.

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#67 Wiiboxstation
Member since 2014 • 1516 Posts

@i_own_u_4ever: power is pretty much irrelevant. Microsoft are still making mistakes with this and that terrible preview of the Series X they just made. Now they're in full damage control because of the lack of gameplay in a gameplay reveal.

Sony has superior brand name in gaming and Microsoft aren't going to be taking it away with incompetent marketing.

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#68 I_own_u_4ever
Member since 2020 • 313 Posts

@wiiboxstation said:

@i_own_u_4ever: power is pretty much irrelevant. Microsoft are still making mistakes with this and that terrible preview of the Series X they just made. Now they're in full damage control because of the lack of gameplay in a gameplay reveal.

Sony has superior brand name in gaming and Microsoft aren't going to be taking it away with incompetent marketing.

You do realize it was a 3rd party game reveal? MS can't force 3rd party developers to show anything more then they want to show. Sure lets also fault MS for trying to give us gamers some normalcy in such trying times. You pathetic spoiled brats.

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#69  Edited By VirusVaccine21
Member since 2020 • 712 Posts

@Sevenizz said:

@virusvaccine21: Sony lost a huge market share in gen 7. Sure they’ve gained some back this gen, but no where near gen 6 numbers - not even close. Next gen they can only go down more. This hurts software sales. The only numbers that matter as you don’t make money selling consoles.

Lol, what do you mean not even close? The PS4 hit 110 million back in February - second best-selling home console of all time. It's on track to finish with at least 140 million which is close to the PS2 numbers. If anything they regained most of their market. The only difference is that the gaming landscape is bigger now and Nintendo and Microsoft have been able to survive and compete.

Also, maybe you should do your research. Playstation generated $20 billion in revenue in 2019. That number was just $4 billion back in 2004 at the height of the PS2. Even adjusted for inflation, Playstation is generating 3x the revenue they did 20 years ago.

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#70 Willy105
Member since 2005 • 25338 Posts

@TheGrat1 said:

447 million home consoles sold. Sony is the master Microsoft is but the learner.

Is this a response to something?

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TheGrat1

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#71 TheGrat1
Member since 2008 • 4298 Posts

@Willy105 said:
@TheGrat1 said:

447 million home consoles sold. Sony is the master Microsoft is but the learner.

Is this a response to something?

The OP. The idea that Sony is scrambling and confused over how to launch a console because of perceived pressure from Microsoft, a company they have been slapping around for the nearly two decades, is laughable. Sony has been doing this for 25 years and has sold more home video game consoles than anyone.

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#72  Edited By tormentos
Member since 2003 • 31496 Posts

@Sevenizz said:

@virusvaccine21: Sony lost a huge market share in gen 7. Sure they’ve gained some back this gen, but no where near gen 6 numbers - not even close. Next gen they can only go down more. This hurts software sales. The only numbers that matter as you don’t make money selling consoles.

You know the PS4 was tracking close to the PS2 in sales?

The PS2 didn't sold 156 million units in 5 years it did so in 12 years,so camparing 156 million in 12 years vs what the PS4 has now is lol worthy.

I don't think they will reach PS2 numbers but 130 millions is not out of the question when they stop making it,which is a nice number.

MS only victory if you can call starting first and ending last a victory was the 360,you lemmings can cry about sony losing marketshare,it didn't take sony 4 generations to win 1 generation,they came and they conquer not MS on the other failed badly.

@i_own_u_4ever said:

You do realize it was a 3rd party game reveal? MS can't force 3rd party developers to show anything more then they want to show. Sure lets also fault MS for trying to give us gamers some normalcy in such trying times. You pathetic spoiled brats.

Dude stop your damage control it was a MS prensetation and yes they can force developers to have gameplay or simply not show any footage for those developers who didn't stop inventing shit.

It was a MS even controller by MS,it was clear what MS try to do,simply try to cash in on the hate for sony not showing much,and it backfire terribly they still think inside the box,and it showed they try to expand what would have been a filler video montage on E3 of 4 minutes into an event,and dishonestly induce people into watch that shit with promises of gameplay which was lol worhty at best which is why sites and youtubers have slam MS.

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#73 I_own_u_4ever
Member since 2020 • 313 Posts

@tormentos said:
@Sevenizz said:

@virusvaccine21: Sony lost a huge market share in gen 7. Sure they’ve gained some back this gen, but no where near gen 6 numbers - not even close. Next gen they can only go down more. This hurts software sales. The only numbers that matter as you don’t make money selling consoles.

You know the PS4 was tracking close to the PS2 in sales?

The PS2 didn't sold 156 million units in 5 years it did so in 12 years,so camparing 156 million in 12 years vs what the PS4 has now is lol worthy.

I don't think they will reach PS2 numbers but 130 millions is not out of the question when they stop making it,which is a nice number.

MS only victory if you can call starting first and ending last a victory was the 360,you lemmings can cry about sony losing marketshare,it didn't take sony 4 generations to win 1 generation,they came and they conquer not MS on the other failed badly.

@i_own_u_4ever said:

You do realize it was a 3rd party game reveal? MS can't force 3rd party developers to show anything more then they want to show. Sure lets also fault MS for trying to give us gamers some normalcy in such trying times. You pathetic spoiled brats.

Dude stop your damage control it was a MS prensetation and yes they can force developers to have gameplay or simply not show any footage for those developers who didn't stop inventing shit.

It was a MS even controller by MS,it was clear what MS try to do,simply try to cash in on the hate for sony not showing much,and it backfire terribly they still think inside the box,and it showed they try to expand what would have been a filler video montage on E3 of 4 minutes into an event,and dishonestly induce people into watch that shit with promises of gameplay which was lol worhty at best which is why sites and youtubers have slam MS.

No maybe MS is just trying to give people some normalcy in our crazy pandemic lives now. Lets kill MS for trying to at least give us something anything.