Should the Nazis be presented with more humanity in games?

only after humans are shown more humanity

What? No!

@uninspiredcup

ok hold on a second

Unlike a subtle as a brick, awful game like The New Colossus where they are pretty much 2D monsters beheading people and dancing in front of the camera while you play a bunch of annoying wise-cracking sjw trying to save America from not-Trump, Relic portrayed them as closer approximation to "a human".

do you think 'beheading people and dancing in front of the camera while you play'

is really the venue SJW would elect to promote a moral agenda?

lol seriously?

Only republicans would vote yes.

I think that's why certain great RPG's (Kotor 2) really trump other games when it comes to memorable antagonists. They make you understand the villain and the motives.

Very few FPS have truly great villains. But Dr. Breen comes to mind. He literally has a Nazi ideology, concentration camps, people going missing, propaganda, segregation, attempting kill off a population for a "superior" version. Human experimentation/augmentation etc..

Yet his rise to power in the context of the game is either A) Humans die or B) Humans kneel and coming from a scientific background than an emotionally motivated one so he doesn't see himself as evil but rather helping people, with the other option being annihilation. The combine themselves are victims. mutilated humans turned into ant workers.

Truly great antagonists. And then I look at something like The New Colossus or the red-shirts in Call Of Duty and it's a big meh.

The Wolf reboot in particular tries way too hard.

I appreciate it when a book or movie (or game) make the important distinction that not all Germans who fought in WW 2 were Nazis.

many Germans hated Nazis, even though many of them were compelled to fight for them.

I'm ok with the Gestapo/SS and many of the higher-ups like Geobells and Hitler being depicted as Evil because for the most part they truly were evil. but there are others who probably were forced into becoming 'Nazis' due to social pressures and circumstances.

so yea, I'm fine with a more nuanced approach to storytelling when it comes to this area. It might help some people understand how someone might end up becoming a Nazi in the first place.

I'm not opposed to someone doing that if they want to, but there is not some need for a more sympathetic portrayal. Nazis are the one group where it is probably okay for videogames to just treat them as monsters. History is littered with genocides, but none were so systematic and ruthlessly efficient. The infrastructure they built, the brutal tactics standardized, the experiments they performed on other humans, the psychological tactics employed to dehumanize even within the oppressed groups themselves. This was all carefully orchestrated, things are much more haphazard when people caught up in a movement just get carried away. No, they have earned their place as history's mustache twirling villains.

That said, there should be a distinction between Nazi and German. Nazis were a political party, and not every German bought into their world view.

I hate nazis so put me down for 'no'. Humanity is for those that are actually human. This regime showed no such thing.

Well if someone wanted to do that then fine more power to them but I don’t think it’s necessarily something that “should” be done. I’d rather stick to playing Wolfenstein myself though.

@BenjaminBanklin: @judaspete:

I voted yes because history is mostly just a big gray when it comes to atrocities. Thinking all Nazi's are pure evil is ignorant, they did what they did because a lot of them honestly thought what they were doing was right and the ones that didn't pretty much had no other choice than to follow orders or recieve the same fate as the ones their group is oppressing. Not all Germans agreed with the Nazi party and Hitler took advantage of the country's poverty at the time by blaming it on Jews that happened to stay wealthy while everyone else wasn't. They even tried to kick the Jews out of Germany first but no other country wanted to take them in which is how the concentration camps started. The saying "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" exist for reason. After reading some Jungian it makes me really think how many people are actually good people as in they've faced the monster inside and tamed it so they chose not to hurt anyone while others are only perceived as good people because they're too cowardly to act out on their monster or not given an opportunity to act like one with little to no consequences.

It's funny when most people in the West think about WW2 they only think about all the bad things Germany did and the atomic bombs America dropped on Japan. Too many people today don't know or refuse to acknowledge the millions of people killed by communism in Soviet Russia and the mass rape by Russian soldiers that happened in Berlin after Germany was defeated by the USSR. Japan has some nerve to play up being the victims when they were the ones that drew first blood on America and the atrocities they did to the Chinese and Koreans during WW2 were just as bad as the holocaust if not worse and its the main reason why the Chinese and Koreans still strongly hate Japanese people to this day. No one seems to know about "Comfort Women" when Japan colonized Korea and invaded China and the Philipines they forced tens to hundreds of thousands of young women and girls from these countries into sex slavery. The many half Japanese children conceived from these rapes aren't allowed to be Japanese citizens. The Japanese government has yet to apologize to China for the Nanking Massacre and actively try to erase it from their own history. At least the Jews were financially compensated by Germany after WW2 while Japan still pretends to be the victim and even demanded that American government apologize to them. The mayor of Osaka last year had cut ties with San Francisco because they put up a statue in honor of Comfort Women. The Japanese had Unit 731 which was a prison were they did experiments on mostly Chinese civilians and to a lesser extent Koreans, Mongolians, Soviet Russians and allied POWs for their biological weapons and they continue to deny that too.

The Nazi's really are the ultimate bad Guys! The craziest part is they were real! The amount of evil in them is beyond thought.

I remember a vet of WW2 saying that after he got to Germany everyone kept saying they hated the Nazi party. Yet not one civilian would ever be honest about it. Always irked him.

Sending 14-17 year olds to battle was desperate and as stated in many documentaries, caused much inner turmoil for many years for soldiers that fought and killed them.

Today's Germans are lovely people and will have to struggle with that badge of dishonor until the end of time.

Also voted NO. Never again to anything like that ever again!

I must had played a totally different Wolfenstein 2 game than everyone else. If you actually wait around to hear what the nazis say in conversation and read letters youd find that game did a great job of humanizing them.

True. True. Call Of Duty conveniently ends before the rape-spree begins, showing Russians bringing peace and harmony to Berlin. Winston Churchhill himself was a racist, he praised the Nazis originally. Something we British conveniently forget because it suits us.

In general, I would much rather play a morally gray game or at least something that challenges your perceptions than these lazy cookie-cutter games.

Winston Churchill was responsible for many atrocities that have been whitewashed from popular history:

The crimes of Winston Churchill

His biggest atrocity was the 1943 Bengal famine which killed millions, along with many thousands more killed across the British Empire, from Iraq and Afghanistan to Kenya and Ireland.

Both the Allies and the Axis perpetrated heinous atrocities and crimes against humanity. But out of the two sides, the Allies were the lesser of two evils.

F*ck no.

I tend to differentiate between the ardent Nazis and the Germans who took up arms in support of their country. I think there were many in the latter who were genuinely concerned with fighting for their country, rather than perpetuating the Nazi ideology. For example, take the famous Luftwaffe fighter pilots Adolf Galland and Gunther Rall. They were well-respected even by their former enemies. Same goes for the Kriegsmarine.

The western Allies generally had no problems taking surrendering Wehrmacht troops as prisoners. But, they have on several occasions, issued orders to not take prisoners from the Gestapo or SS who were usually considered the fanatical Nazis.

Not really a SW topic, but I voted no.

...

*stares at delete account button*

@NoodleFighter: there are some good and important points in your post, but did you just suggest that the Jews wound up in concentration camps "despite" the Germans, because they didn't leave their homes when the sweethearts told them they weren't welcome and the big mean other countries were too mean to take them?

"They even tried to kick the Jews out of Germany first but no other country wanted to take them in which is how the concentration camps started. The saying "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" exist for reason"

- well, sorry Jews, we tried to kick your ass to the curb, but you were too stubborn to go and the other countries don't want our evicted tenants anyway, so we have no choice. Guess we're gonna have to gas and burn you and your families. AH WELL, we tried!

Kinda hard to imagine a Letters from Iwo Jima-type theme for actual nazis because they're too far brainwashed in their twisted ideology.

On the other hand, I don't think it's too far-fetched for the rank and file Germans who served in say, the Wehrmacht.

Unfortunately, there are those who refuse to distinguish between the two.

I would rather have a game portraying the USA as evil because that is how the rest of the world feels. I know it will never happen, but it would be awesome.

I watch USA news and was shocked you guys justify torture. Then going online you guys justified the very things Nazis would do.

It is hypocritical. Would love to see a game tackle that elephant. “It’s okay if America does it”...just lol

Where are you from?

Oh please, they were murderers fascists, they should be presented as they are.

Don't give me this shit.

They killed Jews, black people, homosexuals, they're monsters and always will be.

@tryit: please, SJW would never suggest Nazis to be seen in a good POV, this looks like a conservative propaganda.

Conservatives always being the worst.

@NoodleFighter: Nazis were not pure evil, they just CHOSE to kill and torture people based on their race or sexualty.

Emphasis on CHOSE.

No, real Nazis shouldn't be relatables because their actions and ideology were despicable. Obviously they were human and history isn't black and white but by no means anyone should side with them.

The nazis killed Jews, most of whom were white. And yet, they allied themselves with Japan and allowed muslims to join the SS.

@jun_aka_pekto: they didn't kill only Jews, they killed gay, black people, anyone they thought was perverted or not "pure" was a victim of them.

They were garbage just like any other fascist or far right wing person.

I don't see any arguments there if it concerns actual nazis. So, let me ask you this. Do you make any distinction between actual nazis and Germans or, are they all nazis to you?

@jun_aka_pekto: who the hell consider all Germans to be Nazis?

Usually those who were victims of Nazi atrocities. I knew a few (including a very old Ukranian lady.....RIP) who experienced it firsthand.

By the same token, I knew a few from the Philippines who thought the same of the Japanese.

@jun_aka_pekto: hm, I didn't know that. still it all boils down to ignorance.

And I believe TC was talking about the real Nazis, not about German people.

Everyone tries to put on a happy face (or farce) to make it look like old enemies are getting along. But, the old wounds still fester just below the surface. This is especially true with Asians and the Japanese. The old grievances run deep.

I'd like to play a game where you're a native Indian trying to protect your land from invaders. That would be genuinely interesting.

Assassins Creed 3 was about the closet to that.

You believe the bias and propaganda spread by the U.S. mainstream media?

Correct Answer:

If by humanizing the Nazis, you mean painting their goals and aims in a sympathetic light as a means of finding some way of giving what they did equal representation to those whom they victimized, hell to the motherfuck no.

If by humanizing them, you mean painting context where one can see how fairly ordinary people can be radicalized with the tools at the disposal of a government including youth programs? Yeah, let's go there.

Here's a video from 1943 which demonstrates the latter, how easy it would be for Americans to become radicalized the way Germans were radicalized:

Yes. But first, they should start portraying black people in less racist way in games.

@Jag85: America could've been radicalized like Germany during the WW2 era when we see with some of the propaganda and racist depictions in cartoons and comics it had going on during the 1940s with iconic American characters such as Superman, Batman, Captain America, Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny being used for WW2 ad campaigns and racist depictions of the Japanese. Some of the material they've been in was already racist but it is certainly fuel to the fire especially since America was putting Japanese Americans into camps already.

@calvincfb: Most people are not as empathetic as they think they are, especially towards those that are very different from them. There are studies that show our empathy is somewhat affected on a neural level by our instinctual tribalism and xenophobia. Notice how in a lot of history the groups that persecuted other groups honestly perceived them as subhuman and/or evil so they didn't see the atrocities they committed towards them as wrong because they had little to no empathy for people they thought weren't like them or were "evil" and thought of their actions as justice against evil. It is why we think nothing of killing bug but almost have a mental breakdown from killing a person. Heck just look at our society today where most people wish for criminals and even those just accused to rot in prison and get beaten and raped daily instead of wishing for them to reform, its like a modern version of the Salem Witch Trials. I remember reading a poem that I forgot the name of about the holocaust that used an ogre/monster as a stand in for a Nazi and they questioned how he could do such horrible things but at the same time on his way home from the concentration camp pick up some chocolate for his kids he holds dear to him.

There have also been many experiments such as the Milgram experiment that show that most people give in and obey authority due to our hierarchical nature and need to conform so it shows that we all have the potential to do bad things if given orders by someone with power and/or peer approval. Lack of human empathy is also primarily shown with the Bystanders Effect. Ever notice with things such as how when there is someone being bullied/attacked or in danger everyone just stands on the side watching instead of intervening and the people that do intervene whose job isn't to intervene such as cops and teachers are usually connected to the people involved in the incident such as friends and family. Most people think its not worth risking their life or inconveniencing themselves for people they don't know and assume someone else will do it. I'm sure lots of people that disagreed with the Nazis and were forced into the Nazi rule as soldiers/camp guards primarily didn't stand up for Jews because they weren't Jewish so why risk having the same fate as them?

Speaking of the Blacks killed in Germany, most of them were soldiers from parts of Africa colonized by France so the some of the blood from their deaths is on France's hands too since its not like those Blacks were in Germany of their own volition or lived there before France had colonized them and made them become soldiers. Aside from being seen as inferior they would've been wiped out anyway due to being enemy soldiers occupying their country.

@xantufrog: Oh no I'm not suggesting that at all. In fact some may take that line as saying that the countries that refused to take in the Jews when Germany tried to kick them out first have some of the blood on their hands as well because it was pretty clear it would escalate to concentrations camps if they really wanted to get rid of the Jews that bad but couldn't move them out. Russia probably has some of the blood on their hands because they've persecuted Jews for centuries and have effectively gotten rid of some Jews from their empire by forcing them into Germany, from what I've read they're probably ranking second when it comes to persecuting Jews with Germany being number one obviously because of the holocaust and I can't find numbers on enslaved Jews in Ancient Egypt.

While its certainly not the fault of the Jews that they got killed it wasn't like this hatred for Jews in Germany instantly popped up out of nowhere. Jews have been hated by almost all of the European continent and the Middle East for centuries so naturally you'd assume they'd be more cautious of antisemitism escalating wherever they are. Germans had hated Jews long before the Nazi party and had stripped them of their civil rights before with the last time before the holocaust being back in 1815. I'm guessing most Jews couldn't afford to emigrate or didn't want to as the Nazi political party had gone out of their way to give Jewish citizens incredibly high tax rates especially for those that wanted to leave Germany they'd essentially have to give up all their wealth. Most probably thought it wouldn't escalate as far full on genocide and thought they could wait it out. But when it went as far as German soldiers barging into Jewish homes and businesses and taking all their things and Hitler effectively getting Germans to ostracize their Jewish neighbors then that is definitely a red flag for you to get out of the country regardless of what economic condition it will leave you in by any means necessary.

@uninspiredcup: There is a game called This Land Is My Land that is currently in development that takes on theme of the the US colonization and expansion through the POV of a Native American. I'm really interested to see how they handle that.

I'm definitely down with your latter suggestion, I'm curious to see what it was like to be brainwashed/tricked into being a Nazi and then realizing what you're doing is wrong. I read an issue of Spawn a couple of months ago that covered something similar with a German that was in love with a Romanian woman with a rose tattoo at his concentration camp he was assigned to but was idle with doing anything about the atrocities and kept convincing himself he is not a bad person for not doing anything as someone else will just replace him if he tries to stop them. The most he did as "repentance" was to keep her safe and have her as his personal quarters servant so she wouldn't face the same fate as all the others. When he confessed his feelings to the woman he received nothing but disgust and hatred from her. One day when he was away from camp she was given as a "gift" to some other German man and you can see that her rose tattoo is on a Nazi lampshade (its really dark if you know the meaning behind the lampshade).

I voted yes. It should be up to the creator. But videogames are resilient to abandon puberty. Left, right and centre are now poisoned by this outrage culture. Everyone wants a safe space, everyone is a snowflake. Right now there's little space for growth.

Yep because whenever a war takes place, people are the main victims of war.

And most of the nazi soldiers were normal citizens that just became soldiers to stop the invasion of allied troops to berlin .(Which in the end divided their country for half a century)

So for me this highly depends on what the game is trying to achieve. Historical accuracy? Then yeah I would argue that they should portray them as they actually were. And even from the standpoint of 'not wanting this to happen again' you can argue that portraying them as they actually were (normal people who got a bad kind of radicalized ideas) is more effective? Portraying them as babies in a game that purports historical accuracy is something that backfires. Nobody is going to actually believe that anyway, and it's deceptive.

So I dunno. Is that true?

Attack on Titans/Shingeki no Kyojin believes in that Nazi ideology and it has game made by Namco.

I'm going to ramble here, warning.

The reason why I think it's important to portray them realistically in media if the media is going to imply that it's somewhat accurate in this regard(!), is that it's dangerous in my mind to downplay historical disasters and what led to them. I would rather have people be more aware of exactly how these things happened and exactly who these people were, and how painfully logical or natural it was at the time and place for things to go the way they went. (So not saying I agree with what happened, but that it happened and that that is important to learn from and shouldn't be messed around with too much for the sake of 'whatever we don't care but we'll pretend it's historically accurate' like COD marketing did.)

BTW there is a nice short documentary on the totalitarian changes in Persia. I can't find it anymore. It showcased how that country got transformed into a totalitarian state and it shows how quickly that can happen. It took several years depending who you're talking to but the most radical changes happened within just a few months, essentially before the general populace even fully grasped what was happening and how serious that was. I wonder if anyone here knows that documentary. I remember it being very short.

I'm of the opinion that the most important aspect of history is to prevent previous big mistakes from reoccurring. And I think that it's important for the general populace in any country including the USA to be somewhat aware of how that type of change occurs. How fast it can go. Naziism also rose to power quite suddenly. Sure they existed many years before it happened but they were pretty insignificant until Hitler, through an interesting little deal, got into power. I think it's important that you are alert to that kind of thing at least to a small degree, just so that you won't instantly dismiss the notion that such a thing can happen where you live. And I know a lot of these topics and potential threats that I keep myself occupied with are scary and stressful and sound like things that we as individuals can't do much about anyway... but I firmly believe that we have a mindset as a people and that this mindset is extremely powerful in steering where we go as a people. On the one hand I don't want to stress everybody out. But on the other hand I think some of these scary things are important. For the sake of humanity/human rights.

I don't think you even need to be super stressed out about these things. Sure it stresses me out sometimes but ultimately for me it's about developing a healthy mindset, aware of the risks that your group of people face to some degree, that could really go a long way in preventing such a thing from happening (again). So that's where I stand on these things and why. I don't like the idea of tampering with these historical events while making it seem like you didn't. But I'm also OK with whimsical or comical adaptations like Wolfenstein because ultimately this is a form of entertainment and it doesn't all need to be serious and political at all. If anything the media is what people use to escape from some of these things and I think that's fine.

Yeah, sure. You're asking if we should portray Nazis more realistically in games basically, and some more realism to the nazis in games wouldn't be a bad thing to me.

a SJW would never create a game in which 90% of the game is mass murdering each other in the first ^&*( place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nazis, **** no. But definitely I'll agree that Germans should be portrayed in a more human/neutral ways. Not all Germans were Nazis which I think you wanted from the topic and it's not like the Allies haven't committed atrocities like one of the poster above me said about Winston Churchill. Hell the British Empire is one of the most cruel and murdering machine.

@tryit: ohh bullshit, many game developers are far left that create viloent games.