Shewgenja's 2017 thread of don't buy a TV, yet. Holiday Turbo EX Edition. (Seriously, don't.)

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Shewgenja

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#1  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

Some of you may remember that I made a big thread last year with a tear-down of the technology inside current TVs as well as the pros and cons of many types of panels. Luckily for you, 2017 is not the year for all of that. In fact, I will go so far to say that unless you are highly budget conscious, this will be one of the worst years in history to buy a new TV.

Why would I say such a thing?

Glad you asked. To make a very long story short, any and every TV you buy this year will be a dinosaur by January.

So, even that uberrific 4k upgrade you JUST HAD TO TELL THE WORLD ABOUT that you got for *just* $500 is going to be a complete turd compared to the stock of older TVs (Read, middle to higher tier TVs from 2017 they can't flush out of retail fast enough) that you will get for $500 next year. As for those of us who are all about splashing big on a panel worth holding on to, you will ABSOLUTELY thank me for telling you to slow your roll right now. The baseline of UHD features (and beyond) that will be supported in the next generation of TVs is all of the big buzzwords you hear being pushed and a whole hell of a lot more.

Unless your current TV set is broken, I can't for the life of me justify any of my fellow gamers purchasing a bunch of flat panels that struggle with frame rates in HDR. It's just not reasonable to even impulse purchase a UHD TV right now, even at what appears to be very good price ranges. Spoiler alert: It's not a great deal and you are actually paying top-dollar for what will soon be a bedroom panel at best. The TV makers know this, and most of the people at stores who do know this information probably won't tell you because they don't want to turn down a sale. Happy shopping, for ANYTHING ELSE, other than a UHD TV.

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deactivated-5ea0704839e9e

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#2 deactivated-5ea0704839e9e
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

It's those early adopters that move the industry, though. People were spending exuberant amounts of money on plasma televisions with resolutions that hovered around DVD quality. Had the early adopters not done this, the format would never have taken off. The same holds for the current oled boom.

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Shewgenja

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#3  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@heirren said:

It's those early adopters that move the industry, though. People were spending exuberant amounts of money on plasma televisions with resolutions that hovered around DVD quality. Had the early adopters not done this, the format would never have taken off. The same holds for the current oled boom.

I feel ya. In this case, my target audience is the gamers of this board, though. At this point, even the Pro and Scropio out-perform the TVs that are currently available in the sense that framerates in HDR are just not good in this generation of panels. This issue should be corrected with the new HDMI format and the signal processors to match with 2018s models.

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APiranhaAteMyVa

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#4 APiranhaAteMyVa
Member since 2011 • 4160 Posts

The only really useful thing to gamers in 2.1 is dynamic HDR10 and game VRR the HDMI freesync thing, and manufacturers could possibly release firmware for 2.0 that allows that.

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oflow

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#5 oflow
Member since 2003 • 5185 Posts

Most input devices still use the old format so unless you are going to buy all new audio/video equipment you wont immediately be able to take advantage of it anyway. I dont think many cable companies have any 4K boxes right now and existing Bluray doesnt use it either.

This is only a major issue for those that want bleeding edge tech. But yeah if you havent bought one yet and are planning on buying a 'main' tv that costs more than $500, yeah its a good idea to wait.

But if if you got it to spend an existing $500 4K tv is still a big boost for you X1X over a 1080p set. $500 isnt really breaking the bank. Your old 4K tv isnt going to be a 'complete turd, not when theres no content that exists to take advantage of the new tech. Not to mention at least for console gaming 4K60 is the high end limit.

Either way X1X is ready :P

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Sancho_Panzer

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#6 Sancho_Panzer
Member since 2015 • 2522 Posts

So you're saying I should buy the X this December and hold out until January to get a 4k TV? Well, I wasn't in the market for one, but maybe I should think about it... Thanks, it's food for thought.

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Diddies

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#7 Diddies
Member since 2007 • 2415 Posts

I feel like I have the knowledge a bit to understand TVs but not super knowledgable. I game on my PC which sits on an ultra-wide so my TV doesn't get much action. My Wife was talking about trying to PC on the TV to see what it looks like. Is my TV on Shewgenja's TVs that will be okay to play on. This is my current living room TV.

http://www.lg.com/us/tvs/lg-65UH8500-4k-uhd-tv

I bought this TV about a year ago for a really good deal. I ran across it for $1400 and they threw in a $400 or $500 gift card. I don't remember which one as I used it and bought the Roomba and threw in a couple more hundred to make that purchase.

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Todddow

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#8  Edited By Todddow
Member since 2017 • 916 Posts

Assuming one is still happy with their tv, when do you think might be a good time to upgrade? 2018, 2019? Guess I'm asking when you think the tech might be dialed in after a nice tech leap? I plan to get either an Xbox X or build a new gaming PC in about a year and will hook either one up to a 4k tv.

I'm still rocking a calibrated Pioneer Kuro for tv/movies/console gaming. LED's took a long time to impress me at all, OLED seems to have much better potential for picture quality.

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Sam3231

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#9 Sam3231
Member since 2008 • 2931 Posts

@Shewgenja said:
@heirren said:

It's those early adopters that move the industry, though. People were spending exuberant amounts of money on plasma televisions with resolutions that hovered around DVD quality. Had the early adopters not done this, the format would never have taken off. The same holds for the current oled boom.

I feel ya. In this case, my target audience is the gamers of this board, though. At this point, even the Pro and Scropio out-perform the TVs that are currently available in the sense that framerates in HDR are just not good in this generation of panels. This issue should be corrected with the new HDMI format and the signal processors to match with 2018s models.

That's odd. Why do they advertise 60hz and HDR then?

i.e. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/lg-55-class-54-6-diag--led-2160p-smart-4k-ultra-hd-tv-with-high-dynamic-range/5804403.p?skuId=5804403

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Shewgenja

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#10  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@APiranhaAteMyVa said:

The only really useful thing to gamers in 2.1 is dynamic HDR10 and game VRR the HDMI freesync thing, and manufacturers could possibly release firmware for 2.0 that allows that.

Yeah, but look at what happens to the refresh rate to devices with an HDR source on current sets and you will see what I mean. The logic and DSPs that are going into sets with the new HDMI spec should not be nearly as bad. So, even a device that doesn't have the latest spec like a PS4 Pro or the current set of graphics cards on PC will still gain a LOT from the next generation of panels.

Edit: Didn't see your response, but this should clarify. Although, those panels have a 60Hz refresh rate, almost every panels advertised response (The funny number in milliseconds) is with non-HDR sources. @Sam3231

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Shewgenja

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#11  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@todddow said:

Assuming one is still happy with their tv, when do you think might be a good time to upgrade? 2018, 2019? Guess I'm asking when you think the tech might be dialed in after a nice tech leap? I plan to get either an Xbox X or build a new gaming PC in about a year and will hook either one up to a 4k tv.

I'm still rocking a calibrated Pioneer Kuro for tv/movies/console gaming. LED's took a long time to impress me at all, OLED seems to have much better potential for picture quality.

2018 is the introduction of the new HDMI spec. Expect mid and upper end models for the 2018 model year to have the "good shit" so to speak. Keep an eye out for announcements from CES in January. Ahh, yes, I too have been holding my breath turning purple for an OLED that can perform with a decent refresh rate in HDR sourcing. The time has finally come, it seems. What calibration did you have done on the Kuro? ISF?

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KBFloYd

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#12  Edited By KBFloYd
Member since 2009 • 22714 Posts

too late... i already put my house on mortgage for my LG 65 inch OLED with 3D, HDR and dolby vision(10bit color though )

i am very happy with it and unless it breaks i dont see myself purchaseing a new tv until at least 7 years

i will need a new monitor/tv for my PC though :D

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Sam3231

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#13 Sam3231
Member since 2008 • 2931 Posts

@Shewgenja said:
@APiranhaAteMyVa said:

The only really useful thing to gamers in 2.1 is dynamic HDR10 and game VRR the HDMI freesync thing, and manufacturers could possibly release firmware for 2.0 that allows that.

Yeah, but look at what happens to the refresh rate to devices with an HDR source on current sets and you will see what I mean. The logic and DSPs that are going into sets with the new HDMI spec should not be nearly as bad. So, even a device that doesn't have the latest spec like a PS4 Pro or the current set of graphics cards on PC will still gain a LOT from the next generation of panels.

Edit: Didn't see your response, but this should clarify. Although, those panels have a 60Hz refresh rate, almost every panels advertised response rate is with non-HDR sources. @Sam3231

Oh ok. It just seems very odd this is the first time I've heard of this. I mean I imagine it would be obvious if content were per se, running at 30HZ vs 60.

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Shewgenja

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#14 Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@Sam3231 said:
@Shewgenja said:
@APiranhaAteMyVa said:

The only really useful thing to gamers in 2.1 is dynamic HDR10 and game VRR the HDMI freesync thing, and manufacturers could possibly release firmware for 2.0 that allows that.

Yeah, but look at what happens to the refresh rate to devices with an HDR source on current sets and you will see what I mean. The logic and DSPs that are going into sets with the new HDMI spec should not be nearly as bad. So, even a device that doesn't have the latest spec like a PS4 Pro or the current set of graphics cards on PC will still gain a LOT from the next generation of panels.

Edit: Didn't see your response, but this should clarify. Although, those panels have a 60Hz refresh rate, almost every panels advertised response rate is with non-HDR sources. @Sam3231

Oh ok. It just seems very odd this is the first time I've heard of this. I mean I imagine it would be obvious if content were per se, running at 30HZ vs 60.

Au contrair. For real fast-paced games like fighting games, response time is king!

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BigBadBully

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#15  Edited By BigBadBully
Member since 2006 • 2367 Posts

Im still happy with my 1080p set and plan to use my xbox one x for next 4-5 years. Looking at 4k/HDR and hdmi 2.1, do you forsee great deals with these sets in 2018? Or will they be expensive as h-e-double hockey sticks? I just want to check all the boxes that XBox one x can take advantage of.

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Shewgenja

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#16 Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@BigBadBully said:

Im still happy with my 1080p set and plan to use my xbox one x for next 4-5 years. Looking at 4k/HDR and hdmi 2.1, do you forsee great deals with these sets in 2018? Or will they be expensive as h-e-double hockey sticks? I just want to check all the boxes that XBox one x can take advantage of.

Ancient electronics industry secret. When first introducing a new tech like 4K, make the panels as expensive as freaking possible because you need to use new equipment to manufacture the new technology and underwrite that cost into it. Then, as adoption grows and you improve your manufacturing/supply process, you can move it cheaper as well as start to compete with other electronics with branding and features.

We are entering the branding and features part of the 4k panel cycle. For the sheeple... err... people who think that non-HDR 4k panel was SUCH A STEAL at 400 bucks this year, the real surprise for them will be that high end panels from 2017s model year will be right about that come this time next year since all the marketing and buzz will be for the new HDMI spec TVs they can charge you a bit more for. In that cushion between now and the seeming fire sales on 4K panels and the fire sales on the older generation panels next year, the nice margin will definitely be made on the newest tech but it will not be anything like the prices at the introduction of 4k.

For that matter, expect the real expensive stuff to be 8k and 10k panels, which will filter their way into the consumer market this year. The new 4k panels will simply exist in a "goldilocks" space in the mid to high range tv sets (Your 1500 - 5000 dollar range) where these manufacturers earn their bread and butter.

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QuadKnight

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#17 QuadKnight
Member since 2015 • 12916 Posts

Interesting. I already own a 4K monitor I game on and I'm very happy with it along with a couple of $KTVs around the house.

I won't be making any TV purchases this year. Next year is gonna be very exciting then.

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deactivated-6092a2d005fba

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#18 deactivated-6092a2d005fba
Member since 2015 • 22663 Posts

@KBFloYd said:

too late... i already put my house on mortgage for my LG 65 inch OLED with 3D, HDR and dolby vision(10bit color though )

i am very happy with it and unless it breaks i dont see myself purchaseing a new tv until at least 7 years

i will need a new monitor/tv for my PC though :D

I just bought a new 55" Panasonic Viera HDR 4K telly, and it's 12bit colour whatever that means lol.

And like yourself i'm good to go for at least the next 6yrs (that's the warranty length of the telly) so bring on the good times :)

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KBFloYd

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#19  Edited By KBFloYd
Member since 2009 • 22714 Posts

@i_p_daily said:
@KBFloYd said:

too late... i already put my house on mortgage for my LG 65 inch OLED with 3D, HDR and dolby vision(10bit color though )

i am very happy with it and unless it breaks i dont see myself purchaseing a new tv until at least 7 years

i will need a new monitor/tv for my PC though :D

I just bought a new 55" Panasonic Viera HDR 4K telly, and it's 12bit colour whatever that means lol.

And like yourself i'm good to go for at least the next 6yrs (that's the warranty length of the telly) so bring on the good times :)

i proably won't even notice the 12bit difference. i have enough trouble seeing DNR used on blu-ray movies. people saying the image is garbage because of DNR and i'm like

and i don't even see the huge HDR leap. It makes things a bit more real looking. but it is not a leap like i thought.
the 4k hdr movies i have is ghostbusters 1984, ET, bram stokers dracula, independence day 1996, and goodfellas.

maybe i got the wrong movies to show hdr?

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Tigerbalm

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#20 Tigerbalm
Member since 2017 • 1118 Posts

@Shewgenja: Oh Great Swami I have 65" Sony 4K panel downstairs, I think it's a LCD. I have a 75" LED Sony 940 series upstairs and I'm go for a few years. I'm not upgrading anything.

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commander

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#21  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16217 Posts

@KBFloYd : these are all old movies, surprised you even can get them in 4k in the first place.

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lamprey263

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#22 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44503 Posts

In other words, don't get a 4K UHDTV, and by extension, no reason to pick up an XB1X; amiright?

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deactivated-5cf3bfcedc29b

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#23 deactivated-5cf3bfcedc29b
Member since 2014 • 776 Posts

Hopefully oled tvs are reasonably priced by the time PS5 releases. 1080p is good enough for me until then.

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Shewgenja

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#24  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@lamprey263 said:

In other words, don't get a 4K UHDTV, and by extension, no reason to pick up an XB1X; amiright?

Not even close. When I made last year's thread, I fully expected the new HDMI to actually be on shelves by now. My gripe with the Scorpio begins and ends with the library of exclusives. I applaud them for the tech package they put together for the most part. I think their messaging was a bit of hyperbole considering the CPU, but all things considered, a device needs to make budget. If you want to look at it another way, I think the TVs that are out right now are mostly bad for the PS4 Pro as well as PC. I can understand why you would draw the conclusion you have, but I am trying to save people thousands here. Not Scorpio money. Hell, why not get a great tv that actually matches the tech in the device you hook up to it?

But wait, there's more. All I'm really doing is asking people to take a look at what happens at CES. Literally, just days into the new year. Not some slash piece about how 4K is bad and you shouldn't ever get on board. If you want a Scorpio, jump on that.

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Shewgenja

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#25 Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@commander said:

@KBFloYd : these are all old movies, surprised you even can get them in 4k in the first place.

Too young, as well. 35MM film translates amazingly well onto 16:9 displays. Sadly, a lot of movies from the 70s, 80s, and 90s were taped rather than filmed. Those movies don't see quite the leap in picture quality. Lawrence of Arabia was/is one of the true spectacles of HD/UHD video oddly enough.

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deactivated-5ea0704839e9e

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#26 deactivated-5ea0704839e9e
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

How much has the motion resolution improved for oled?

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Juub1990

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#27 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 12620 Posts

I like my KS8000 but in hindsight, I would wish I hadn't bought it.

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deactivated-63d2876fd4204

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#28 deactivated-63d2876fd4204
Member since 2016 • 9129 Posts

You all know new shit comes out every year, right?

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Shewgenja

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#29 Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@goldenelementxl: 2016 and 2017 have been iterative for the most part. The new hdmi spec establishes a clearer line between late generation uhd panels and the beginning of the transition to 8k or even 10k. The new hdmi will be generational, so to speak.

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#30  Edited By locus-solus
Member since 2013 • 1552 Posts

I'm waiting for hdmi 2.1 tv myself Variable Refresh Rate, Dynamic HDR, 4k at 120hz, and hopefully lower Input Lag. hoping Volta gets announced at ces but with the Star Wars Titan XP Collector's Edition coming out I doubt it.

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Shewgenja

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#31 Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@heirren: Great question. One of the big reasons Ive been so patient in getting an OLED is precisely for this reason. If the frame response can get bumped up significantly, it would have the grand effect of having flicker control without darkening the image like most flicker sliders will do. Starting a pixel is very quick in Oled, so better response time will have the better effect of simply starting the pixels faster and mitigating the slow rest period.

We will learn soon enough =)

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Litchie

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#32 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 34468 Posts

No plan on getting a new TV in the near future. 1080p still looks great.

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VFighter

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#33 VFighter
Member since 2016 • 11031 Posts

I got my gaming HDTV in 2013, a 47 inch Sony (forget the exact model) and love it. It had the least amount of input lag for the time and the picture quality is great IMO. I don't see myself getting a new TV for a long ass time. Hell up until then my gaming tv was a 32 inch Sony sdtv, and I still have that for all my retro consoles.

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sayyy-gaa

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#34  Edited By sayyy-gaa
Member since 2002 • 5850 Posts

TC, basically you said don't buy a TV in 2016. Now you are saying don't buy a TV in 2017. But you THINK 2018 will be a good time for purchasing after CES. Does that cover it?

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ArchoNils2

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#35 ArchoNils2
Member since 2005 • 10534 Posts

This just in: There is always the next thing. When 4k was there, people said wait for HDR. When HDR was here, people said wait for OLED. Now that OLED is here, people say wait for HDMI 2.1. There is never a right time to buy a Tv because there is always something new around the corner

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Shewgenja

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#36  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@sayyy-gaa said:

TC, basically you said don't buy a TV in 2016. Now you are saying don't buy a TV in 2017. But you THINK 2018 will be a good time for purchasing after CES. Does that cover it?

Nah, I did not tell people to hold off last year. I simply did a break down of the tech that was/is out. Now that the real good stuff is just a few months away, I am saying hold off if you can. Even if you aren't a big gadget geek, the more expensive stuff out this year will be way cheaper next year as a result. So, save a little money or get a much better TV. It's a unique situation. You act like 4K panels just came out in 2015 or something, or that OLED is the new tech this year. That couldn't be further from accurate.

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PSP107

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#37 PSP107
Member since 2007 • 18782 Posts

@Shewgenja:

Why should people trust you now?

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l34052

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#38 l34052
Member since 2005 • 3906 Posts

The only tv I really want right now is the LG W series but I don't have a small mortgage available to actually buy one.

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sonny2dap

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#39  Edited By sonny2dap
Member since 2008 • 2057 Posts

Just an addition to this, if you wait to just before world cup 2018 you will see heavy discounting. (in Europe at least.)

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Shewgenja

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#40  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@PSP107 said:

@Shewgenja:

Why should people trust you now?

Don't. IDGAF. Just don't come crying to me when January comes and your TV is lame-dick for gaming in HDR. Most people found my advice was sound last year and I got a lot of kudos for doing it from all the different fanbases.

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PSP107

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#41 PSP107
Member since 2007 • 18782 Posts

@Shewgenja:

No need to get hot tempered at me.

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kingtito

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#42 kingtito
Member since 2003 • 11775 Posts

New tech will always be coming out. If we waited for the latest and greatest then we'll always be waiting. I'm glad I got both my OLED TVs. I don't regret either purchase and with my new X1X, the picture looks fantastic.

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Shewgenja

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#43 Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@kingtito said:

New tech will always be coming out. If we waited for the latest and greatest then we'll always be waiting. I'm glad I got both my OLED TVs. I don't regret either purchase and with my new X1X, the picture looks fantastic.

Fo sho. If you are already happy with what you got, I am definitely not going to kick sand in people's faces for being happy with what they got. OLED is also the best image quality money can buy right now. Last year, I think we did a break down in a few posts about the different OLED panels out. This is less of a "OMG UHD is the devil" post and more of a "If you haven't bought a TV already, now is a good time to stay on the fence for a couple of months because new stuff with wide adoption is around the corner." kind of post. In fact, I speculate some mad price-cutting throughout the year next year on current-gen TVs. If not immediately, then absolutely 100% definitely by next holidays.

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#44 kingtito
Member since 2003 • 11775 Posts

@Shewgenja said:
@kingtito said:

New tech will always be coming out. If we waited for the latest and greatest then we'll always be waiting. I'm glad I got both my OLED TVs. I don't regret either purchase and with my new X1X, the picture looks fantastic.

Fo sho. If you are already happy with what you got, I am definitely not going to kick sand in people's faces for being happy with what they got. OLED is also the best image quality money can buy right now. Last year, I think we did a break down in a few posts about the different OLED panels out. This is less of a "OMG UHD is the devil" post and more of a "If you haven't bought a TV already, now is a good time to stay on the fence for a couple of months because new stuff with wide adoption is around the corner." kind of post. In fact, I speculate some mad price-cutting throughout the year next year on current-gen TVs. If not immediately, then absolutely 100% definitely by next holidays.

Definitely appreciative of these kinds of post. If I didn't already purchase and was planning on it, this probably would of had me waiting a few months. I'll probably end up upgrading in a few years anyway.

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#45  Edited By speedfog
Member since 2009 • 4966 Posts

Have fun waiting TC, I'm already playing in 4k HDR on my console.

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#46  Edited By BassMan
Member since 2002 • 17763 Posts

@Shewgenja: I am not understanding the point you are trying to make. What exactly is your issue with current TVs? "Struggle with frame rates in HDR." What do you mean by that? Current OLED can do 4K/60fps HDR at around 21ms of input lag. This is good. HDMI 2.1 will have the added benefit of VRR which will benefit frame rate dips and the added bandwidth will allow for over 60fps at 4K. This is of course better, but I do not see why you are shitting on the current tech.

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#47  Edited By Shewgenja
Member since 2009 • 21456 Posts

@BassMan: 1. That 21ms response is with a non-HDR source unless LG or Sony dropped a miraculous software update in the past week I am simply not aware of.

2. My purpose was never to shit on current panels but to say that if you like one, it will be way cheaper soon and you might even get a better deal on an even better TV this time next year.

3. With the new Hdmi and features it supports, the manufacturers will have to make new logic chips and digital signal processors to coincide with it whereas for a lot of the Uhd generation, they have been able to reuse and rebrand for the most part.

New guts, newer and less expensive manufacturing process, the tip of the spear of the push for 8k panels in the higher end of the spectrum, and current gen panels that will need to be flushed out of retail equals a perfect storm for the new TV shopper. For Uhd panels, right now is as bad as it will ever be in terms of value.

If you already have a Uhd TV, you are not the target audience. If you are being razzle dazzled by a "good deal" for Black Friday, on the other hand, this thread IS for you.

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#49  Edited By BassMan
Member since 2002 • 17763 Posts

@Shewgenja:

Current year LG OLED '7 series have always had low input lag at 4k/60 HDR.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/inputs/input-lag

Last year's models like my B6 did receive a firmware update to lower the input lag as well.

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#50 Telekill
Member since 2003 • 12061 Posts

Eh... I'm happy with my Vizio P-50 that I bought last year. Just got a 4K disc player last week on sale from Amazon for $ 150.