@Pedro:
@BassMan:
@sealionact: The point of that build he showed was how far you can go in building a small PC without compromising performance and being a better alternative to NUC for similar price point. That rig isn't top of the line anymore. Not to mention that the pcpartpicker build he linked I corrected you on your assumption that you couldn't fit high end cards into the Fractal Node 202 and it would be very hot and loud.
You keep exaggerating noise and size but have you ever seen a mini itx gaming build? I have one with a GTX 1080 and Ryzen 5 1600 with stock cooler and it never gets loud even when playing demanding games. Cooling fan tech has come a long way in effectively cooling hardware while not being loud. The fans on even high end GPUs and SLIs/crossfire set ups and stock CPU coolers at full load ranges from 38-46 DBa which is very reasonably quiet and in the same range of the Xbox One X noise levels. A lot of these GPUs are more powerful and run a bit quieter.
As for size you can easily see in the thumbnail of the video I posted that the Fractal Node 202 is only about 2 inches bigger than the PS4 and Xbox One if that is too big for you than that is some serious nitpicking That machine is still small enough to be carried around in a backpack and has no problem fitting into gaming set ups just like a console. Same with how much emphasis you put on aesthetic. I can understand if you don't like RGB but some of these mini ITX cases without it are still pretty sleek/minimalist and wouldn't look out of place in a living room set up. And aesthetics don't matter nearly as much as functionality since after all you're going to be looking at the game on your screen 95% of the time not your console. Need to get priorities straight if the appearance of the box matters far more than the functionality and capability of the components inside it.
Why are you people counting teraflops between two different architecures?..
If it was 12 TFLOPS they would have been shouting it from the roof tops in the reveal, X1X 6TFLOPs compared to Navi is not the same so a 12 TFLOP Navi card is not 2x the power of X1X it's far more.
2x the performance of a X1X in raw power/performance is a aftermarket overclocked 5700 or a underclocked 5700XT.
It will be less than 10TFLOPs almost gaurenteed, do you guys not connect the dots?... Why do you think they have that box layout?... Navi runs hot and needs better cooling even at 36 CU at 1700Mhz a red dragon model hits 84c.
12 TFLOPs?... Stop it.
It won't be any more powerful than a 5700XT... Not even close, it will be running of RDNA2 which will be more efficient but not enough to add 4 TFLOPS of power and ray tracing cores with the same TDP with a one year release difference.
They are being vague and not mentioning TFLOP's because it won't look good for them on paper because people will see 6TFLOP on X1X and then 8-9.5 TFLOPs on a new console and be confused just like you are now.
A 5700 with 36 CU's with 8 TFLOPS is already giving you almost 2x the performance in games... Which is clearly what Phil was talking about.
Please don't start with your bullshit theories man the RX580 can beat the xbox one X in most games regardless of the xbox one X GPU having VRS,is juts another of your tile resources DX12,ESRAM buffoonery that never helped the xbox one in anything.
10TF RDNA would surely double the XBO X power,you don't need 12TF which will surely more than double it.
So when MS say double the xbox one X power that is the VERY best scenario on a test done with no AI or somehting like Forza,if MS says double it probably is little less than double.
Your arguments are real bullshit..
Xbox One X GPU has VRS like feature. https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-the-scorpio-engine-in-depth
Andrew Goossen tells us that the GPU supports extensions that allow depth and ID buffers to be efficiently rendered at full native resolution, while colour buffers can be rendered at half resolution with full pixel shader efficiency.
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This feature is missing in all AMD GCN and NAVI PC GPUS. NVIDIA included VRS feature with Turing for the PC market!
For my tile resource argument, it's faking W5000's 2GB GDDR5 like results. You can't handle both tile resource workaround and W5000 (12 TFLOPS GCN with 256 bit 2GB GDDR5) like upper limit aspects!
You can't grasp extra development work is needed for XBO's workaround to reach near W5000 results, hence it has less performance consistency when compared to flat 2GB memory architecture W5000 vs flat 2GB memory architecture R7-265.
The real bullshit comes from you.
@tormentos said:
And considering that YOU try endeless to pass the xbox one X as been better than a 1080TI and 1070TI then backtraqued on iti should not say any more.
That's a false narrative! You didn't understand the kindergarten IF conditional statement.
GTX 1070 Ti (GP104-300-A1, November 2017) did not exist during X1X's reveal and during my IF conditional X1X GPU includes XYZ feature forum postings. LOL.
X1X GPU included other features such as like VRS and ROPS with 2MB render cache instead!
You missed my GTX 980 Ti vs PS4 Pro with rapid pack math Mantis Burn Racing comparsion with entire GPU vs GPU context.
You purposely deleted my IF conditional statement with your bullshit narrative.
10TF RDNA would surely double the XBO X power,you don't need 12TF which will surely more than double it.
So when MS say double the xbox one X power that is the VERY best scenario on a test done with no AI or somehting like Forza,if MS says double it probably is little less than double.
10 TFLOPS RDNA being nearly doubled 6.1 TFLOPS RX-580 effectiveness comes with RX Vega II class rasterization power and memory bandwdith on gaming workloads.
When a game is optmised (e.g. skip ROPS limits with TMU I/O, wave64 compute format aware, geometry workload cap) for AMD, RX 580's 6.1 TFLOPS result is getting close GTX 1070's +6.5 TFLOPS.
With TMU read/write workaround for AMD ROPS bottleneck, both RX 580 and GTX 1070 has 2MB L2 cache storage for the ALUs.
Forza Motorspot 7's high alpha effects during wet scenes hammers ROPS, hence X1X GPU's (2M render cache with ROPS) superority over RX-580 (ROPS has no access to 2MB L2 cache). GTX 1070's ROPS has 2MB L2 cache access. TMU I/O raster workload doesn't have fix function alpha blending effects.
RX 5700 XT has near Vega II's raster/memory bandwdith.
On pure math context. NAVI 10 is a disappointing GPU, stick with RX Vega II. NVIDIA has TFLOPS high ground with Turing. NAVI 10 is not the best encryption currency cruncher.
NAVI 10 has better vector branching (single cycle latency wave32, double cycle latency for wave64) but less raw TFLOPS when compared to RX Vega II (this wave64 needs four wave64s to cover four cycle latency). Not all compute workloads needs heavy vector branching.
On gaming workloads, RX Vega 56 at 1710 Mhz (12.2 TFLOPS) beaten ASUS Strix RX Vega 64 at 1590Mhz (13 TFLOPS) and beaten/rivaled RTX 2070.
Hint: Vega 56 at 1710 Mhz improved raster power for quad geometry (input and triangle processing) , 4MB L2 cache (fast temp storage) and ROPS (fix function effects, Z buffer and color buffer read-write I/O). ALU's TFLOPS by itself doesn't include I/O.
NAVI 10's improved raster behavior already shows from overclocked RX Vega 56 at 1710 Mhz beating RX Vega 64 at 1590 Mhz
I already argued for RX Vega II with reduced CU count (reduce power consumption) while increasing clock speed beyond 1710Mhz (improve raster) before RDNA was released!
Hint: (RX Vega II's 60 CU has 295 watts). (295 watts / 60 CU) x 40 CU = 196 watts (near RX 5700 XT's power consumption).
Note why NVIDIA Pascal GPUs has higher clock speed with less equalevent CU count!
Try again.
@tormentos said:
Oh and rumors still point to the PS5 been stronger,and again MS for the second time didn't call scarlet (Now xbox Series x) the most powerful console ever built like they did with the xbox one X, they call it the most powerful xbox console THEY have built so you may end again crying about secret souces for some years to come i would not miss it..lol
Not my argument.
One thing I would like to point out that people can't seem to grasp here and the non "technical" people in the gaming industry who are jumping on the 2x 6TFLOPs means a 12 TFLOP navi GPU!
First if he is saying that its 2x the power and it refers to performance then a 5700 overclocked is just that BUT if he is referring to TFLOPs... Then again a X1X is using GCN so 2x 6TFLOPs on GCN is a Vega 64 which performs the same as a 5700.
A 12 TFLOP Navi card is not 2x the performance of a 6 TFLOP GCN based X1X, a 12TFLOP Navi would be almost 3x the performance and would compete against a RTX 2080 S... Do you guy's not understand how ridiculously unrealistic that is?... A 5700XT runs HOT and draws more than 200w and is 10.5TFLOPs, you think in 1 year AMD has managed to get 12 TFLOPs with Ray Tracing cores from Navi and have it running 30% less power than it?
I understand why websites do this because it draws people to their sites and I understand why you guys believe it... Half of you don't understand a f***ing thing and find it too complex to apparently even game on PC.
They are being vague for a reason and they are focusing on the NVMe and 8 Core Zen 2 because those sound impressive... Remember when everyone said oh it will be faster than anything on PC because it uses Gen4 PCIe lanes?... Right rumour says slower than 2Gbps which is not even close to what a Gen3 NVMe max's out at and no mention of capacity?
12 TFLOPs... GEN4 NVME faster than any PC... 8 Core Zen two... Build me a PC like that?...
Sorry we slower than 2Gbps NVME's don't exist at good capacities and a Zen 2 on desktop doesn't run at 3.5GHz or less... We can't build it because not only does it not exist but its actually weaker than what we have already.
When they reveal the 8-9.5 TFLOP GPU you guys will pretend this never happened, just like no one is talking about GEN4 NVME speeds better than anything on PC... My NVMe runs at 3.3Gbps and is a year old.
Does XSX has the same case as X1X?
Can ~300 watts GPU card installed into Corsair One case? Hint: RTX 2080 Ti can be installed.
https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-series-x-almost-double-size-xbox-one-x
Using stills from the Xbox Series X announcement trailer, the console is an estimated 31cm tall, with 16cm width and depth, give or take a couple of millimeters for margin of error. That compares to the 30cm x 24cm x 6cm dimensions of Xbox One X, Microsoft's currently most powerful and smallest console on the market. Those dimensions provide an estimated volume of 7936 cubic centimeters for Xbox Series X, almost double of the Xbox One X's 4320.
Xbox Series X is NOT Xbox One X size box with 7 nm procsssing parts
Xbox One X's vapor cooling and case solution already handles ~190 watts gaming with GPU around 150 to 160 watts.
Your 5700 argument is valid IF XSX's case is recycling X1X's cooling and case solution, but XSX's case is almost doubles the volume over X1X's case.
Based on XSX's near 2X volume increase, looking at a GPU at 250 to 300 watts range with 45 to 55 watts CPU (double X1X Jaguar's power consumption).
XSX is effectively a desktop gaming PC mini-tower dressed as a "Xbox game console".
XSX is like two X1X glued together with updated NAVI/RDNA 2 and Zen 2 IP parts.
XSX's size is similar to Apple's Mac Pro bucket.
Microsoft solves AMD's TDP problems with near-2X volume case from X1X by PC master race's brute force method.
Xbox Series X is effectively Microsoft's Corsair One like PC without "Surface" PC brand.
GPU, 52 CU x 1800 Mhz would do 11.980 TFLOPS.
RX 5700 XT AE as up to 1980 Mhz boost clock (10.14 TFLOPS) with 225 watts TDP (thermal solution).
Existing RX 5700 is ready for X1X's existing cooling and case solution, but XSX has ~1.83X volume of X1X's case.
Existing RX 5700 doesn't include 15% power efficiency improvments from TSMC 7nm+ EUV.
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Phil Spencer claim
“So when we do the math, we’re over eight times the GPU power of the Xbox One, and two times what an Xbox One X is.”
From https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/xbox-series-x-is-twice-as-powerful-as-xbox-one-x-says-phil-spencer/
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The difference between 12 TFLOPS NAVI and 10.1 TFLOPS NAVI is just 18 percent.
RDNA with 12 TFLOPS without any scaling on geometry inputs, geometry processing and ROPS would result in RX Vega II (13.8 TFLOPS) style bottlenecks! Such as design wouldn't be all aspect RTX 2080.
NVIDIA scaled RTX 2080's GPC (geometry) to 6 units for 11.2 TFLOPS with 64 ROPS backend.
RX-5700 XT AE has four equlavent GPC (geometry) units for 10.1 TFLOPS with 64 ROPS backend. RX Vega II's un-core parts
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