RTX a bigger scam than initially thought? Cryengine ray tracing demo without RTX

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#1 Edited by BassMan (9834 posts) -

https://www.dsogaming.com/news/crytek-showcases-real-time-ray-tracing-in-cryengine-with-its-neon-noir-tech-demo/

There is hope for ray tracing on next gen consoles.

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#2 Posted by True_Link (235 posts) -

lol $1000 GPUs.

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#3 Posted by Howmakewood (5713 posts) -

Nobody ever said you cant do ray tracing without rtx tho

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#4 Edited by BassMan (9834 posts) -
@howmakewood said:

Nobody ever said you cant do ray tracing without rtx tho

Yes, but Nvidia was hyping up the RT cores and saying that regular GPUs struggle with RT. Their RTX implementation runs like shit and the RT cores are a bottleneck. Now we have regular GPUs running real-time ray tracing well. RTX is a joke. Overpriced garbage.

For the record, I bought my RTX 2080 Ti for the extra rasterization performance and not for ray tracing. I knew that RTX was shit and I wasn't happy having to pay a premium because of it.

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#5 Posted by PC_Rocks (1808 posts) -

Didn't think Crytek still had it in them to do something like this.

@howmakewood said:

Nobody ever said you cant do ray tracing without rtx tho

True but it's not a good outlook on Nvidia's part if the performance is in the same ballpark of RTX cards.

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#6 Posted by djoffer (1102 posts) -

Lol, the 20xx cards are becoming a bigger and bigger joke at this point!

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#7 Posted by Howmakewood (5713 posts) -

@BassMan: Ye I had no interest in rtx cards at all and while I could get 2080ti and write on tax deducts, dont feel like its worth it, just waiting for something better

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#8 Edited by lundy86_4 (52123 posts) -

Do they have any plans to continue the GTX line? My only real option to go 4K in my price range is a 2080, but i'll play 1440p for a while if they release new GTX cards.

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#9 Posted by AcidTango (1628 posts) -

@BassMan said:

Yes, but Nvidia was hyping up the RT cores and saying that regular GPUs struggle with RT. Their RTX implementation runs like shit and the RT cores are a bottleneck. Now we have regular GPUs running real-time ray tracing well. RTX is a joke. Overpriced garbage.

For the record, I bought my RTX 2080 Ti for the extra rasterization performance and not for ray tracing. I knew that RTX was shit and I wasn't happy having to pay a premium because of it.

Yeah it's also the main reason why I bought a RTX 2060 for better performance as well. The RTX 2060 card has been great by running games at 1440p but the Ray Tracing features for that card is completely useless for me.

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#10 Posted by Juub1990 (8366 posts) -

Tech demo.

Yeah hit me up when it runs in an actual game.

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#11 Posted by Messiahbolical- (5633 posts) -

@lundy86_4: Bro they've already been releasing new GTX cards. They released the GTX 1660ti a while back and now just released the1660 regular. And are set to release a 1650 as well. They'll probably release a few more options down the line as well... I'd be surprised if they don't do a 1670+ti at some point.

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#12 Posted by lundy86_4 (52123 posts) -

@Messiahbolical-: I've definitely not been paying attention. I just hope they don't subject the GTX line to being low-mid end whilst keeping the RTX line as their top-end (even though they offer a mix of RTX cards.) I don't care about poorly implemented RT, and would much rather pay the same price (bar the 2080ti) for better performance. As it is, i'm probably gonna be going RTX2080 for semi-4k experience.

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#13 Edited by ronvalencia (27027 posts) -

@BassMan:

Without using Tensor cores, Vega 64/VII has similar compute FP16/FP32 power as Volta. Mr TFLOPS Raga Kandori is correct for this render path.

As a compute card, RTX 2080 Ti and Titan V has the same register storage vs stream processor ratio as AMD Vega series

Without Tensors cores being factored, RTX 2080 Ti has raster superiority with similar compute power and features as Radeon VII.

Anyway.. AMD's real time raytracing with little effort on artwork demo

Loading Video...

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#14 Edited by ronvalencia (27027 posts) -

@true_link said:

lol $1000 GPUs.

Both Radeon VII and RTX 2080 are priced similar at $699 price range.

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#15 Posted by lundy86_4 (52123 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:
@true_link said:

lol $1000 GPUs.

Both Radeon VII and RTX 2080 are priced similar at $699 price range.

It's like a robot talking to a robot lol.

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#16 Posted by sakaiXx (5091 posts) -

Can't wait for nvidia to retire the 20xx cards and wow us with even shittier cards.

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#17 Posted by lundy86_4 (52123 posts) -

@sakaixx said:

Can't wait for nvidia to retire the 20xx cards and wow us with even shittier cards.

Well, it could be worse... They could be AMD.

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#18 Edited by ronvalencia (27027 posts) -

@lundy86_4 said:
@sakaixx said:

Can't wait for nvidia to retire the 20xx cards and wow us with even shittier cards.

Well, it could be worse... They could be AMD.

AMD's Finewine... Notice the old R9-390X Hawaii GPU (5.9 TFLOPS) has beaten GTX 1160 Turing (5.437 TFLOPS). AMD optimized games are usually compute tile to L2 cache render path bias.

Double R9-390X's 5.9 TFLOPS lands on 11.8 TFLOPS with 46 fps estimate. VII has 13.3 TFLOPS with 47 fps. Vega 64 has 12.56 TFLOPS with 39 fps (there's a design bottleneck)

With this benchmark, the GPUs are roughly ranked to TFLOPS power.

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#19 Edited by lundy86_4 (52123 posts) -

@ronvalencia: RobotRon, that was a joke. It was not intended seriously, thus it did not need a serious reply.

Loading Video...

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#20 Edited by schu (10013 posts) -

@BassMan: same.. but I also sold mine back.... waiting for 3xxx series

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#21 Posted by BassMan (9834 posts) -

@schu said:

@BassMan: same.. but I also sold mine back.... waiting for 3xxx series

I need every bit of power for 3440x1440/120hz. No way I am getting rid of mine until I have something better.

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#22 Posted by Pedro (33366 posts) -

@lundy86_4 said:
@ronvalencia said:
@true_link said:

lol $1000 GPUs.

Both Radeon VII and RTX 2080 are priced similar at $699 price range.

It's like a robot talking to a robot lol.

LMAO.

With regards to the OP, I look forward to Nvidia's response. They will have to respond.

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#23 Edited by JasonOfA36 (1159 posts) -

Oof, and rendered real time using only a vega 56.

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#24 Posted by superbuuman (6397 posts) -

this is the kind of stuff we need...hopefully see it being implemented in games as soon as possible. :)

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#25 Edited by ronvalencia (27027 posts) -

What it's doing is using AMD's compute power along side HBM v2.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-metro-exodus-tech-interview

Question: Let's talk about ray tracing on next-gen console hardware. How viable do you see it to be and what would alternatives be if not like RTX cards we see on PC? Could we see a future where consoles use something like a voxel GI solution while PC maintains its DXR path?

Ben Archard: it doesn't really matter - be it dedicated hardware or just enough compute power to do it in shader units, I believe it would be viable. For the current generation - yes, multiple solutions is the way to go.

This is also a question of how long you support a parallel pipeline for legacy PC hardware. A GeForce GTX 1080 isn't an out of date card as far as someone who bought one last year is concerned. So, these cards take a few years to phase out and for RT to become fully mainstream to the point where you can just assume it. And obviously on current generation consoles we need to have the voxel GI solution in the engine alongside the new RT solution. RT is the future of gaming, so the main focus is now on RT either way.

In terms of the viability of RT on next generation consoles, the hardware doesn't have to be specifically RTX cores. Those cores aren't the only thing that matters when it comes to ray tracing. They are fixed function hardware that speed up the calculations specifically relating to the BVH intersection tests. Those calculations can be done in standard compute if the computer cores are numerous and fast enough (which we believe they will be on the next gen consoles). In fact, any GPU that is running DX12 will be able to "run" DXR since DXR is just an extension of DX12.

Other things that really affect how quickly you can do ray tracing are a really fast BVH generation algorithm, which will be handled by the core APIs; and really fast memory. The nasty thing that ray tracing does, as opposed to something like say SSAO, is randomly access memory. SSAO will grab a load of texel data from a local area in texture space and because of the way those textures are stored there is a reasonably good chance that those texels will be quite close (or adjacent) in memory. Also, the SSAO for the next pixel over will work with pretty much the same set of samples. So, you have to load far less from memory because you can cache and awful lot of data.

Working on data that is in cache speeds things up a ridiculous amount. Unfortunately, rays don't really have this same level of coherence. They can randomly access just about any part of the set of geometry, and the ray for the next pixels could be grabbing data from and equally random location. So as much as specialised hardware to speed up the calculations of the ray intersections is important, fast compute cores and memory which lets you get at you bounding volume data quickly is also a viable path to doing real-time RT.

Question: When we last spoke, we talked about DirectX 12 in its early days for Xbox One and PC, even Mantle which has now been succeeded by Vulkan. Now the PC version of Metro Exodus supports DX12. How do low-level APIs figure into the 4A engine these days? How are the benefits from them turning out for the 4A engine, especially on PC?

Ben Archard: Actually, we've got a great perf boost on Xbox-family consoles on both GPU and CPU thanks to DX12.X API. I believe it is a common/public knowledge, but GPU microcode on Xbox directly consumes API as is, like SetPSO is just a few DWORDs in command buffer. As for PC - you know, all the new stuff and features accessible goes into DX12, and DX11 is kind of forgotten. As we are frequently on the bleeding edge - we have no choice!

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#26 Posted by IMAHAPYHIPPO (3346 posts) -

@BassMan said:
@howmakewood said:

Nobody ever said you cant do ray tracing without rtx tho

Yes, but Nvidia was hyping up the RT cores and saying that regular GPUs struggle with RT. Their RTX implementation runs like shit and the RT cores are a bottleneck. Now we have regular GPUs running real-time ray tracing well. RTX is a joke. Overpriced garbage.

For the record, I bought my RTX 2080 Ti for the extra rasterization performance and not for ray tracing. I knew that RTX was shit and I wasn't happy having to pay a premium because of it.

I remember my first video card.

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#27 Edited by mazuiface (738 posts) -

Lmao check this out @X_CAPCOM_X. Good call on getting that Radeon VII! More reason to hate Nvidia's business practices with their overpriced scams.

@jasonofa36 said:

Oof, and rendered real time using only a vega 56.

Excellent. At least I know I can run it.

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#28 Posted by Epak_ (10583 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:
@true_link said:

lol $1000 GPUs.

Both Radeon VII and RTX 2080 are priced similar at $699 price range.

Well crap, when I get my TV paid, who knows who knows, the prices might be even lower then :O

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#29 Posted by schu (10013 posts) -

@BassMan: for me its VR, but had to prioritize my life for a bit

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#30 Posted by Gatygun (1357 posts) -

Nvidia is such a scumbag company lamo. Everything they fall flat on there face i have a good day.

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#31 Posted by mrbojangles25 (43352 posts) -

Impressive. Now, if Crytek would just make a new Crysis game that does the original one honor, I think they just might undo all the bad shit they've done in the past few years.

@pc_rocks said:

Didn't think Crytek still had it in them to do something like this.

@howmakewood said:

Nobody ever said you cant do ray tracing without rtx tho

True but it's not a good outlook on Nvidia's part if the performance is in the same ballpark of RTX cards.

You know shit just got real when Crytek makes another company look bad.

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#32 Edited by PC_Rocks (1808 posts) -

@mrbojangles25 said:

Impressive. Now, if Crytek would just make a new Crysis game that does the original one honor, I think they just might undo all the bad shit they've done in the past few years.

@pc_rocks said:

Didn't think Crytek still had it in them to do something like this.

@howmakewood said:

Nobody ever said you cant do ray tracing without rtx tho

True but it's not a good outlook on Nvidia's part if the performance is in the same ballpark of RTX cards.

You know shit just got real when Crytek makes another company look bad.

Yup and Yup. Probably also the reason why CryEngine wasn't among the engines that supported RTX because they were working on their own solution. In the past these kind of techs usually always debut on CryEngine but that may also be due to Crytek's financial woes.

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#33 Posted by MonsieurX (38827 posts) -

@lundy86_4 said:
@ronvalencia said:
@true_link said:

lol $1000 GPUs.

Both Radeon VII and RTX 2080 are priced similar at $699 price range.

It's like a robot talking to a robot lol.

I miss Battlebots

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#34 Posted by JoPython52 (119 posts) -

I’m more than happy with my RTX 2080. It’s a beautiful thing at 1440p on a 144hz gsync monitor. Expensive yeah, but I sure remember a few years of over inflated prices for GTX cards because of bitcoin. I would rather pay $700 for a RTX 2080 than $800 or more for a GTX 1080.

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#35 Posted by DaVillain- (35022 posts) -

@BassMan said:
@howmakewood said:

Nobody ever said you cant do ray tracing without rtx tho

Yes, but Nvidia was hyping up the RT cores and saying that regular GPUs struggle with RT. Their RTX implementation runs like shit and the RT cores are a bottleneck. Now we have regular GPUs running real-time ray tracing well. RTX is a joke. Overpriced garbage.

For the record, I bought my RTX 2080 Ti for the extra rasterization performance and not for ray tracing. I knew that RTX was shit and I wasn't happy having to pay a premium because of it.

Obviously dedicated hardware will be better, but this however proves that Ray-tracing does not solely belong to Nvidia alone. Good to hear the tech moving forward and supporting older cards. Demo looks amazing!

As for RTX itself. It really doesn't help the fact GTX 10XX are now inflated prices and the RTX are selling less then 10XX series, might as well go buy RTX family line.

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#36 Edited by rmpumper (465 posts) -

RTX might be a scam (can't tell without a public benchmark of this demo), but AMD sure can't compete with the RTX cards even in non-RT games, so who gives a shit?

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#37 Edited by BassMan (9834 posts) -

@rmpumper said:

RTX might be a scam (can't tell without a public benchmark of this demo), but AMD sure can't compete with the RTX cards even in non-RT games, so who gives a shit?

I do, because video card prices are getting out of control. Lack of competition on the high end cards plus shoehorned RT cores drives up the price.

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#38 Posted by michaelmikado (186 posts) -

Dedicated hardware for any very specific software function will always be the worst possible way to address something. It’s like having a sound card or physx card or GPU with discrete shaders in 2019. The best option will always be to replace with more general purpose silicon and more of it and work on coding. Hardware should never be built around accelerating a very specific software function, especially at the rate that PCs increase in power. Any hardware which would accelerate processes now would be obsolete in 5 years anyway.

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#39 Edited by Polynu (39 posts) -

No RTX isn't a scam. Ray tracing was always possible on traditional GPUs/CPUs. RTX GPUs add dedicated pipelines to calculate rays and triangle intersections, thus making simulation of ray tracing more feasible across the board (granted they don't use a different technique such as voxel-based GI). The fact that this can be done on an AMD GPU just means good optimization with standard rendering cores. DXR doesn't have a strict set of implementation requirement, and Nvidia just decided that using dedicated hardware is more efficient.

RT cores accelerate linear algebra operations that are used to compute line intersections, so any ray/path traced scene using this technique will see better performance on an RTX card, end of story.

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#40 Edited by lundy86_4 (52123 posts) -

@BassMan said:

I do, because video card prices are getting out of control. Lack of competition on the high end cards plus shoehorned RT cores drives up the price.

It's why i'm going 2080 in a few weeks, and not ti... 2 grand for a GPU is just crazy. My bro grabbed a 1080ti just before they jacked the price to match the 2080ti lol.

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#41 Posted by rmpumper (465 posts) -

@BassMan: Why blame nvidia's RTX for the inflated prices? AMD is still overpricing the Vega GPUs (*European pricing): the 56 is going for the price of 2060, and the 64 close to 2070, while the 56 is competing with 590 priced 1660Ti and the 64 is competing with 2060, but it is somehow nvidia's fault?

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#42 Posted by BassMan (9834 posts) -

@rmpumper: New tech leads to inflated pricing to cover R&D costs. Also, the additional RT cores cost more to manufacture.

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#43 Posted by rmpumper (465 posts) -

@BassMan: Yes, but I'm takling about the inflated pricing of Vega compared to 2060, which has the new tech, better TPD and performance and is cheaper than Vega, but you are only complaining about overpriced nvidia cards.

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#44 Posted by VFighter (4504 posts) -

Glad I don't give two shits ray tracing.

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#45 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6156 posts) -
  1. Ray Tracing is no dependant on RTX.
  2. This is a tech demo so we have no idea how it actually runs
  3. If this demo was released to the public what cards do you think would run it better?... My money is on cards with RTX cores.

While I agree that RTX is overpriced can you please explain to me why Radeon VII costs the same as a RTX 2080?... Because you contradict your self, is RTX cores are the reason why the 20 series is overpriced then why is the Radeon VII that has no RTX cores priced the same as a RTX 2080 when in most games it performs worse?...

Ray Tracing is in its infancy stages and we will get to the point where it will cost less to manufacture RTX cores and or future GPU's will be powerful enough to run without them but as of right your jumping to conclusions... Just because a tech demo runs ray tracing without RTX cards doesn't mean that a RTX card is useless or overpriced because we have no idea if there won't be a performance benefit in that demo to having a GPU with RTX cores and if there is a performance benefit then its not really a rip off is it?...

I get your anger at the prices, but remember dual GPU cards use to exist and cost $1K+ and had MANY issues... At least with RTX you get games that look better/different than without them, now could those games work on non RTX cards with those features available?... Sure maybe, but would they run well?.. I doubt it.

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#46 Edited by BassMan (9834 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: @rmpumper: I really don't know WTF AMD is doing with their pricing. I know HBM2 is a factor, but they must have been smoking some serious shit when they were pricing their cards. As for the RTX cards... RT cores or not, they still don't run games well with ray tracing enabled. So, they are kind of pointless and a half-baked product release.

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#47 Posted by FantasyGamer (429 posts) -

@vfighter:

Because it's not on Consoles yet? , I'm sure you will like Ray tracing when a Sony game has it in the future ;)

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#48 Edited by DaVillain- (35022 posts) -

@BassMan: @Grey_Eyed_Elf: The reason why Radeon VII cost the same as RTX 2080 is because of 16GB it's carrying and it's why AMD charging that much then it's worth and all the hype was on Navi but it wasn't ready, so the Radeon VII is technically a filler until Navi is ready. All in all, it's the 16GB making Radeon VII overprice.

These mid-gen GPU now are over-saturating the PC market as it is, AMD needs to compete with the high-end GPU.

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#49 Edited by Raining51 (400 posts) -

Basically yes but I don't think it's a big deal there's still roo to room to improve dramatically and meet the high expectations.

Personally I still think 4k is the biggest overall "scam" to be honest.... increased resolution has never really been a top priority for me in terms of improving

the visual design... and focusing everything on resolution now just seems lazy......

The possibility of HDR improvements has me more excited than the jump from 1280 to 1024 honestly and that's how many games I think would be around.

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#50 Posted by ronvalencia (27027 posts) -

@BassMan:

At the same clock speed, VII has ray-tracing improvements over V64