PS5 details from Mark Cerny: Backwards compatible, 8k, raytracing support, SSD standard, and more

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#351 Posted by emgesp (7832 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Under-voltage VII rivals RTX 2080 https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ao43xl/radeon_vii_insanely_overvolted_undervolting/

Microsoft created their own power curve profile for Xbox One X since AMD's craftsmanship is a problem.

Ron, are you optimistic that PS5 will at least have 10 Tflops?

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#352 Posted by OliverSnyders (157 posts) -
@vaeh said:
@oliversnyders said:

What will you do with higher resolution if fps is 30? I’d rather take 80 fps.

@freedomfreak said:

These consoles can't even do 4K.

/thread

Cows will watch cinematic movies.

LMAO

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#353 Posted by I_P_Daily (12018 posts) -

@howmakewood said:

Damn some of ya'll really hanging on Cernys nuts a bit too hard

Well cows have a Knack for that sort of thing lol.

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#354 Posted by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Under-voltage VII rivals RTX 2080 https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ao43xl/radeon_vii_insanely_overvolted_undervolting/

Microsoft created their own power curve profile for Xbox One X since AMD's craftsmanship is a problem.

Ron, are you optimistic that PS5 will at least have 10 Tflops?

I speculate under-voltage VII with ~11 TFLOPS with 256bit GDDR6-14000 which is better than Vega 56.

NAVI may include additional ray-tracing related improvements along with raster improvements (64 ROPS limit with 256 bit bus design).

VII architecture includes ray-tracing improvements when compared to older Vega 56/64

Expect RTX 2070 level with higher TFLOPS.

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#355 Posted by ocinom (1008 posts) -

Some dude should leak some next gen Xbox specs so every one will forget the massive failures of Microsoft this gen

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#356 Posted by BenjaminBanklin (4729 posts) -
@phbz said:

This looks like something/someone baited Sony to announce this way ahead of time. Not seeing exactly what were they thinking, why would they want to dominate the news when MS didn't announce nothing next gen yet?

Maybe it just doesn't really matter what Microsoft does at this point for Sony. Sony still has to do their thing while MS seems to be big on gearing up for streaming. They can't wait for chess moves the whole gen, they have products they need to announce and eventually bring out.

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#357 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

I am amazed that some folks believe Navi was made for the PS5 and was codesigned with Sony. Navi is AMD next gen architecture and have been for years meaning it will be on all of their GPUs when released. Why do people make shit up?

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#358 Posted by michaelmikado (364 posts) -

@goldenelementxl said:

@michaelmikado: You seriously think there are advantages of flash based cartridges over disc media on home consoles? The main reason the switch uses them is battery consumption. Nintendo skimps on the higher capacity cartridges because of cost. Discs end up costing a fraction of a penny when purchased in bulk. Not to mention the Xbox One and PS4 only use them to verify ownership most of the time. The games are installed on your hard drive and run from there.

1 - Power consumption means nothing because the consoles are plugged into the wall

2 - Faster loads from cartridges won’t matter with gamed being installed on ssds

3 - The cost difference in manufacturing would drive game prices up. Getting some of you to spend $60 is hard enough as it is.

You seriously DON'T think there are advantages???

Ok, lets just break this down on everything from technical specs to markets.

Even we compare the fastest UHD Blu-ray player at x16 (60-70MB/s) to the slowest SD card UHS-1 (50-100MB/s) flash memory far far outpaces UHS and that's not even getting into UHS-II or III where the games wouldn't even NEED to install to run.

Further we have significant TDP and power draw, space considerations and cost of the drive itself. All these aspects take away from contributions to other gaming related functions for a piece of hardware which sole purpose to transport game files so that they can be installed to a HDD anyway. Ignoring that fact this isn't a necessary and functional part of the game experience every rumored and confirmed specification and discussion as pointed to a system focused on power savings and space.

- 8 core Zen3. Rumors 3.2Ghz-3.8Ghz. This is probably the most significant rumor because a single Zen3 ccx core has 8 cores and the base is 4Ghz. This indicated the PS5 will likely have a low end Ryzen and underclocked/volted below the standard 4Ghz. This indicates a desire to get cheap and power efficient CPUs.

Rumored HBM2 - there are current rumors of 16GB HBM2 stacks with a 8GB LPDDR4X stack. This is critical because if true it would mean the HBM2 could sit on die on the interposer and the LPDDR4X stack would also be tiny and extremely energy efficient. GDDR6 could still be actual RAM used but the leaks were much too specific about this configuration.

Cerny- talked about a Fast SSD not seen in PCs. I briefly entertained the idea of Optane, but the price and form didn't sit right. It's far far far more likely the PS5 will use an onboard eUFS 3.0 v-nand drive. I'm guessing 128-512GB for cost reasons. Again the benefit is it sits right on the board without the need for an expensive controller or bus and its read speeds range from 2.1GB-2.9GBp/s

Now, taking these specs are what they are, the size of this components would easily be able to fit into a small form factor box and by 2023 on a board less than the size of paperback book. Sony is not about to require a drive which doubles the size of its console years down the line and only functions to move files around when there's a dozen more cost effective ways they can accomplish the same thing.

But you know what, ignore the technical specs...its obviously just coincidence because we can also safely ignore these:

https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a20949714/playstation-boss-hints-that-the-playstation-5-could-be-a-portable-console/

Or the Sony patents for switch-like consoles and cartridges.

Again, not saying at launch, but there is no way Sony is ties themselves to Bluray games for a few reasons and its mostly due to market.

When a distributor sells a physical game they get a 25% cut. Meanwhile Sony, Nin, MS get a 20% cut and the publishers/developers get only 55% of whatever sells. Meaning GameStop gets $15 from that $60 game.

In digital distribution Sony, MS, and Nin are the distributors and take a 30% cut but 70% goes back directly to the publisher/developer.

Basically, there is no incentive to push a traditional physical sales model because its not as profitable. So even if the cost of physical sales rises and pushes more people towards digital, it would be advantageous for both Sony and the developers if consumers did so.

Further we already see this in the works as Sony has pulled all digital codes from stores and now users must go through PSN. It's already started.

Further here is a good article:

https://www.windowscentral.com/reasons-why-discless-xbox-one-s-makes-sense-and-why-it-doesnt

But anyway, the point is that there is no reason for Sony to continue to release Ps5 games on blu-ray and I could see future PS5 games releasing on digital or cart/SD only. Cross gen games could likely use the same Blu-ray

But there is no reason to use Blu-ray for gaming whatsoever. It actually hurts the console itself to at the expense of power, space, and cost to continue to support it. If this is projected to last 5-6 years after launch the console will not be designed around having optical media and its almost a guarantee subsequent revisions, if not the launch version, will be discless. Especially when using carts allows games to be played directly from them rather than installed and possibly use for save games as well rather. Sony is pushing no load times this generation, no install times would go along with that philosophy and the only way to accommodate that would be to use carts.

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#359 Posted by michaelmikado (364 posts) -

@Pedro said:

I am amazed that some folks believe Navi was made for the PS5 and was codesigned with Sony. Navi is AMD next gen architecture and have been for years meaning it will be on all of their GPUs when released. Why do people make shit up?

Maybe you should take it up with Forbes, they are the ones who reported it.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2018/06/12/sources-amd-created-navi-for-sonys-playstation-5-vega-suffered/

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#360 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@michaelmikado: I don't have to take it up with Forbes. Navi has been on AMD roadmap for years. Not because it is also being used in the PS5 doesn't equate to it being made for the PS5 when the same GPU will be found in every other device that uses AMD.

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#361 Edited by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@michaelmikado:

192 bit GDDR6-12000 is reaching mainstream with GTX 1660 Ti. GTX 1060 has 192 bit bus PCB. AMD version has 256 bit bus PCB.

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#362 Edited by GoldenElementXL (3234 posts) -

@michaelmikado: My beef wasn’t with the digital vs physical or the splits with retailers. And yes, I know load time will improve with a card vs disc. But the cost of the cards is far higher than discs. Do you know the cost of 256GB-512GB memory cards? You want to play your games straight from those? Again, the discs we use today act as a ownership verification since we download and play the games from the hard drive anyway. You think they are gonna switch to a media solution that is hundreds of times more expensive in order to save a few bucks on a disc drive? Ask Nintendo why they continue to choose to ship the 64GB cards and require their players to download the rest of the games on WiFi.

Next Gen games are gonna be HUGE. The cartridge required to fit those games would double the price of the games

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#363 Posted by emgesp (7832 posts) -
@Pedro said:

@michaelmikado: I don't have to take it up with Forbes. Navi has been on AMD roadmap for years. Not because it is also being used in the PS5 doesn't equate to it being made for the PS5 when the same GPU will be found in every other device that uses AMD.

Navi was in fact created with the help of Sony for the PS5. Remember PS5 has been in development for some years now.

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#364 Posted by PC_Rocks (2446 posts) -

@emgesp said:
@pc_rocks said:
@emgesp said:

1. I don't have to. I have shown it multiple times, ask your buddy tormentos how he got owned about it multiple times. And that is on top of that Steam survey can't be used as metric because a) it's optional b) It has shown to be inaccurate as it only shows the PC first registered against the user and not the latest specs he had. Again that has been discussed to death. Sony made a false marketing claim.

4. Need to see proof that base PS4 is doing HDR like Xbone S.

5. I already told you checkberboarding isn't something special. The real meat is the code that developers write for each game. Pro has nothing to do with it. Another lie.

1. You never showed this evidence to me. You are beyond naive and ignorant if you honestly think the average PC gaming rig in 2013 was as powerful or more poweful than the PS4. Again, there is no evidence that proves your statement to be true. There were some PCs that were more powerful yes, but they were only exceptions, not the norm. The AMD 7850/7870 and whatever Nvidia's equivalent at the time was definitely was not the average GPU in PCs in 2013.

4. You are the one who made the claim that Base PS4 only does fake HDR with zero evidence.

5. Well yeah the quality of checkerboard rendering comes down to the developers that goes without saying. Nobody assumed PS4 Pro just turns on a simple switch and everything just works.

1. Because the evidence you quoted is not any evidence at all. Don't care about average build, that was a marketing ploy to fool casual idiots into thinking they are buying some uber PC in a console form. The average console in 2013 was still 2005 era 360 and PS3. Fact is there are always more powerful PC's out there in the wild than whatever consoles are sold. Nvidia 6 series was already out for over a year and PS4 was in fact equivalent to mid range GTX 5 series from 2010.

4. The onus is on you to prove thhat original PS4 support HDR because you need HDMI 2.0 for HDR pass through, one of the reasons why Xbone doesn't support HDR but Xbone S does.

5. That's what your boy Cerny tried to pass it off as which was my initial point. Go and watch the Pro reveal again, how they avoided native 4K like a plague, passing off checkberboarding as a magical bullet and something Sony/Pro invented/supports, the whole 'Dynamic 4K' marketing.

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#365 Posted by Coolyfett (6046 posts) -

This thread is filled with LULZ

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#366 Edited by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@emgesp said:

Navi was in fact created with the help of Sony for the PS5. Remember PS5 has been in development for some years now.

Is it going to be exclusive to PS5? BTW just in case you aren't aware, AMD made GPUs for their current and competitors system so this "help" from Sony is very ambiguous.

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#367 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6452 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Under-voltage VII rivals RTX 2080 https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ao43xl/radeon_vii_insanely_overvolted_undervolting/

Microsoft created their own power curve profile for Xbox One X since AMD's craftsmanship is a problem.

Ron, are you optimistic that PS5 will at least have 10 Tflops?

I speculate under-voltage VII with ~11 TFLOPS with 256bit GDDR6-14000 which is better than Vega 56.

NAVI may include additional ray-tracing related improvements along with raster improvements (64 ROPS limit with 256 bit bus design).

VII architecture includes ray-tracing improvements when compared to older Vega 56/64

Expect RTX 2070 level with higher TFLOPS.

I agree with this, Vega 56 on the worst case and at best Raideon 7 performance depending on the game... As seen with Vega 56 with some games it outperforms a GTX 1080 and in others its slower than a 1070 Ti. Now with the PS5 I would assume the architectural differences from that and desktop Navi that the TFLOP comparison won't be apples to apples, it never really is as seen with the X1X with fewer TFLOPs than a RX 580 but due to the nature of it being a custom SOC they tinkered with it to get more CU's and in most games it will out perform a RX 580.

People need to understand that when I say we will be lucky to get 10-11 TFLOPS with next generation need to remember that these are custom chips and the TFLOP won't be comparable to PC and may act like a desktop chip that due to frequencies will have higher TFLOP count but be worse in actual performance.

10-11 TFLOP Navi 7nm with a 8 core Zen 2 based console for $400-500 is a steal even in 2020 as it will perform on a similar level of a RTX 2070 or Raideon 7 which cost alone more than a entire console.

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#368 Posted by michaelmikado (364 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:

@michaelmikado:

192 bit GDDR6-12000 is reaching mainstream with GTX 1660 Ti. GTX 1060 has 192 bit bus PCB. AMD version has 256 bit bus PCB.

The cost/space/heat/power benefits are still below HBM2 and future iterations. I'm not saying they won't use GDDR6, but if they are thinking long term for smaller and more portable units. Like say a small unit that attaches to a PSVR headset like the Magic Eye or the Occulus Quest it makes sense that they would select the solution which would pose more benefits in different form factors.

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#369 Posted by 2mrw (5868 posts) -

He shouldn't have mentioned 8k... Now it makes everything he said look rubbish because we know for a fact, it is not happening

Ray tracing is irrelevant and tbh, its a scam feature

Otherwise, I am quite stocked

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#370 Edited by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@michaelmikado said:
@ronvalencia said:

@michaelmikado:

192 bit GDDR6-12000 is reaching mainstream with GTX 1660 Ti. GTX 1060 has 192 bit bus PCB. AMD version has 256 bit bus PCB.

The cost/space/heat/power benefits are still below HBM2 and future iterations. I'm not saying they won't use GDDR6, but if they are thinking long term for smaller and more portable units. Like say a small unit that attaches to a PSVR headset like the Magic Eye or the Occulus Quest it makes sense that they would select the solution which would pose more benefits in different form factors.

HBM2 is expensive relative to GDDR6.

GTX 1160 TI is priced lower than Vega 56. https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=438,404&sort=price&page=1

NVIDIA's profit margin is higher than AMD's.

Current PSVR headset already has linkage with PS4 Pro.

VR headset with integrated AMD mobile APU is garbage.

PS4 Pro was made from RX-470/570's parts and cost structures

PS4 was made from 7850/R7-265's parts and cost structures

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#371 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@2mrw said:

He shouldn't have mentioned 8k... Now it makes everything he said look rubbish because we know for a fact, it is not happening

Ray tracing is irrelevant and tbh, its a scam feature

Otherwise, I am quite stocked

They need to hype new hardware in order for it to sell. The BS for next console iteration is going to escalate like it always does. Just look at the level of tripe in this thread, without the disclosure of specs.

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#372 Posted by PC_Rocks (2446 posts) -

@emgesp said:
@Pedro said:

@michaelmikado: I don't have to take it up with Forbes. Navi has been on AMD roadmap for years. Not because it is also being used in the PS5 doesn't equate to it being made for the PS5 when the same GPU will be found in every other device that uses AMD.

Navi was in fact created with the help of Sony for the PS5. Remember PS5 has been in development for some years now.

Another out of context quote and link. Navi wasn't created specifically for 'PS5'. It's also created keeping the needs of consoles i.e. PS5 in mind. Navi have been on AMD roadmap since 2014-2015.

That's like saying Intel designed Haswell, Nehalem, Sandy Bride for Razer laptop, do you see how stupid does that sound or claiming Nvidia designed Tegra for Google Pixel. Unless Sony owns Navi or gets royalties for its use, that argument is flawed at best and disingenuous at worst.

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#373 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@pc_rocks said:

Another out of context quote and link. Navi wasn't created specifically for 'PS5'. It's also created keeping the needs of consoles i.e. PS5 in mind. Navi have been on AMD roadmap since 2014-2015.

That's like saying Intel designed Haswell, Nehalem, Sandy Bride for Razer laptop, do you see how stupid does that sound or claiming Nvidia designed Tegra for Google Pixel. Unless Sony owns Navi or gets royalties for its use, that argument is flawed at best and disingenuous at worst.

Its amazing how a simple concept can be skewed because of brand loyalty.

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#374 Edited by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@2mrw said:

He shouldn't have mentioned 8k... Now it makes everything he said look rubbish because we know for a fact, it is not happening

Ray tracing is irrelevant and tbh, its a scam feature

Otherwise, I am quite stocked

Loading Video...

AMD Vega 56 Ray Tracing Demo with NEON NOIR CRYENGINE with standard API

VII architecture has ray-tracing improvements.

Further software ray tracing improvements with DirectML like rapid pack math access.

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#375 Posted by michaelmikado (364 posts) -

@goldenelementxl said:

@michaelmikado: My beef wasn’t with the digital vs physical or the splits with retailers. And yes, I know load time will improve with a card vs disc. But the cost of the cards is far higher than discs. Do you know the cost of 256GB-512GB memory cards? You want to play your games straight from those? Again, the discs we use today act as a ownership verification since we download and play the games from the hard drive anyway. You think they are gonna switch to a media solution that is hundreds of times more expensive in order to save a few bucks on a disc drive? Ask Nintendo why they continue to choose to ship the 64GB cards and require their players to download the rest of the games on WiFi.

Next Gen games are gonna be HUGE. The cartridge required to fit those games would double the price of the games

Which is exactly why it doesn't make sense to be married to an optical drive which even at its fastest is slower than memory cards and would cost $70-$100 for the faster ones (Even if it were $30-$50 that's still money they could have put in other places). We are to the point when games can't even fit on discs, let alone actually be used for anything other than the initial install. From a business and retail model none of the console makers want to support anyway. Xbox is already introducing a disc-less model and Nintendo has already dropped it for their console. Its only a matter of time because there's no benefit to either the discs or the business model beyond the physical disks not costing much. If it cost $10 extra bucks for physical copies of the same game on memory cards its only going to make the big three happier to use a digital store front. That's the difference, with the optical drive Sony pays for it at the expense of its console, with the memory cards only the consumers who want physical memory pay for it which is dwindling down less and less every day.

There will be a physical method of game distribution but optical drives serve no benefit beyond being cheap.

They can't even perform the one task they were good at anymore which was higher capacities and they are virtually useless when compared to other physical media alternatives.

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#376 Posted by tormentos (29185 posts) -

@Pedro said:
@Shewgenja said:

@Pedro: Please try to politick your narratives at least to half-ass if you're going to do it. This isnt just a faster chip and I'm pretty sure you are perfectly well aware of that.

I am not the one who is making midgen 2.0 with faster CPU for the next console iteration. Take your complaints to the Sony (also Microsoft) not me.

Oh from the shitty jaguar inside consoles to Ryzen 5 there is a hell of allot of distance much more so than GPU talking.

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#377 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@ronvalencia: Has Crytek released this version of the engine to the public? Is this demo available for review?

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#378 Edited by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

Under-voltage VII rivals RTX 2080 https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ao43xl/radeon_vii_insanely_overvolted_undervolting/

Microsoft created their own power curve profile for Xbox One X since AMD's craftsmanship is a problem.

Ron, are you optimistic that PS5 will at least have 10 Tflops?

I speculate under-voltage VII with ~11 TFLOPS with 256bit GDDR6-14000 which is better than Vega 56.

NAVI may include additional ray-tracing related improvements along with raster improvements (64 ROPS limit with 256 bit bus design).

VII architecture includes ray-tracing improvements when compared to older Vega 56/64

Expect RTX 2070 level with higher TFLOPS.

I agree with this, Vega 56 on the worst case and at best Raideon 7 performance depending on the game... As seen with Vega 56 with some games it outperforms a GTX 1080 and in others its slower than a 1070 Ti. Now with the PS5 I would assume the architectural differences from that and desktop Navi that the TFLOP comparison won't be apples to apples, it never really is as seen with the X1X with fewer TFLOPs than a RX 580 but due to the nature of it being a custom SOC they tinkered with it to get more CU's and in most games it will out perform a RX 580.

People need to understand that when I say we will be lucky to get 10-11 TFLOPS with next generation need to remember that these are custom chips and the TFLOP won't be comparable to PC and may act like a desktop chip that due to frequencies will have higher TFLOP count but be worse in actual performance.

10-11 TFLOP Navi 7nm with a 8 core Zen 2 based console for $400-500 is a steal even in 2020 as it will perform on a similar level of a RTX 2070 or Raideon 7 which cost alone more than a entire console.

7nm Vega II 56 with Vega 64's memory bandwidth would have better results over Vega 56

Mainstream gaming NAVI RX-670/680 wouldn't have Vega II's workstation features e.g. FP64.

Vega II has additional deep learning instructions for noise reduction which is useful for ray tracing.

NAVI may have other improvements along with GDDR6 e.g. improve delta color compression.

RTX 2070 needs 7 nm process node to reduce the chip area size.

VII's main cost is with low volume quad stack HBM v2 at 1000Mhz. Vega 56 almost reached GTX 1660 Ti's price range with dual stack older HBM v2 at 800Mhz

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#379 Posted by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@Pedro said:

@ronvalencia: Has Crytek released this version of the engine to the public? Is this demo available for review?

No.

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#380 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:
@Pedro said:

@ronvalencia: Has Crytek released this version of the engine to the public? Is this demo available for review?

No.

Until then their claims cannot be verified.

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#381 Edited by ni6htmare01 (3784 posts) -

I really don’t give much care about these fancy spec as I’m pretty happy with the current gen’s graphics. All I care now is will we see Horizon Zero Dawn 2 as a launch tittle? If it is a launch tittle than PS5 is a day one for me.

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#382 Edited by BoxRekt (1659 posts) -

@emgesp said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

You guys do realise that 8K could just mean that it supports that resolution output which I assume is for media and has nothing to do with gaming resolutions.

Ray tracing is a given, pretty much all GPU's can do ray tracing... THAT doesn't mean that they should or that it won't come with a huge performance hit, the specifications are about right a 8 core zen 2 chip with a Navi Lite GPU that will be around 10-12TFLOPS with a 12-16GB worth of unified system memory and a since SSD's are cheap now with a 1TB going for less than $100 and with the manufacturers deals they can get it to probably at half that price for a mass produced console.

Also people going havoc over these specifications need to understand that this level of performance is nothing new, we are past the era of consoles coming out with cutting edge hardware its mid range stuff people relax. Also a Zen chip with a 3.2GHz boost?... that's 1/4 slower than the current Ryzen chips and we all know what happens to them against Intel chips.

People need to understand that consoles are $400-500 pieces of plastic with the bonus of being mass produced and thus getting parts cheaper they are still limited to core clocks and heat and power usuage, a 2700 and a Vega 56 is the level of performance they will hit. Expect 4K/30 with hard to run games and 4K/60 with the easier to run games... And the chances are still high that a lot of games will have performance issues because 12TFLOPS is not enough for 4K and a 3.2GHz CPU can still bottleneck depending on the game/engine.

Weren't you the same guy who said we would be lucky to get 10 Tflops on the PS5?

LMFAO all these arm chair PC gurus are suddenly backtracking as if they knew what they were talking about when they were talking out their ass being 100% WRONG on all their PS5 predictions.

I said 10TF would be the minimal GPU power. These PC rejects really don't know jack shit when it comes to consoles.

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#383 Edited by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@Pedro said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Pedro said:

@ronvalencia: Has Crytek released this version of the engine to the public? Is this demo available for review?

No.

Until then their claims cannot be verified.

PS4's Killzone Shadow Fall has ray-tracing reflections via async compute with 512 KB L2 cache. That's without VII's ray casting dsp instructions to support True Audio Next.

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#384 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:

PS4's Killzone Shadow Fall has ray-tracing reflections via async compute with 512 KB L2 cache.

That does not relate to Crytek in anyway.

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#385 Posted by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@Pedro said:
@ronvalencia said:

PS4's Killzone Shadow Fall has ray-tracing reflections via async compute with 512 KB L2 cache.

That does not relate to Crytek in anyway.

Who are you to disprove Crytek?

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#386 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:

Who are you to disprove Crytek?

Evidence disproves Crytek. Its that simple.

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#387 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6452 posts) -

@boxrekt said:
@emgesp said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

You guys do realise that 8K could just mean that it supports that resolution output which I assume is for media and has nothing to do with gaming resolutions.

Ray tracing is a given, pretty much all GPU's can do ray tracing... THAT doesn't mean that they should or that it won't come with a huge performance hit, the specifications are about right a 8 core zen 2 chip with a Navi Lite GPU that will be around 10-12TFLOPS with a 12-16GB worth of unified system memory and a since SSD's are cheap now with a 1TB going for less than $100 and with the manufacturers deals they can get it to probably at half that price for a mass produced console.

Also people going havoc over these specifications need to understand that this level of performance is nothing new, we are past the era of consoles coming out with cutting edge hardware its mid range stuff people relax. Also a Zen chip with a 3.2GHz boost?... that's 1/4 slower than the current Ryzen chips and we all know what happens to them against Intel chips.

People need to understand that consoles are $400-500 pieces of plastic with the bonus of being mass produced and thus getting parts cheaper they are still limited to core clocks and heat and power usuage, a 2700 and a Vega 56 is the level of performance they will hit. Expect 4K/30 with hard to run games and 4K/60 with the easier to run games... And the chances are still high that a lot of games will have performance issues because 12TFLOPS is not enough for 4K and a 3.2GHz CPU can still bottleneck depending on the game/engine.

Weren't you the same guy who said we would be lucky to get 10 Tflops on the PS5?

LMFAO all these arm chair PC gurus are suddenly backtracking as if they knew what they were talking about when they were talking out their ass being 100% WRONG on all their PS5 predictions.

I said 10TF would be the minimal GPU power. These PC rejects really don't know jack shit when it comes to consoles.

The TFLOP count is still unknown. Also I don't think you two understand when someone say "you will be lucky to get 10-11 TFLOPS"... It doesn't mean it won't happen and nor did I say it won't, I said you will be lucky. Which is based on the TDP, Price and architecture of GCN.

You saying it will be 10TF minimum is based on what?... You are just throwing out a safe number with little to no idea of what TFLOP's actually are let alone how they are calculated.

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#388 Posted by tormentos (29185 posts) -

@BigBadBully said:

Specs don't mean much, Sony needs to work more on the services. How will they make PSNow more attractive and match gamepass and get more people into PSN with multiplayer/online gaming.

MS studios and Gamepass going to stomp on Sony if PSNow stays the same and Sony doesn't build up/acquire studios. Just the occasional exclusive and then collect dust until the next.

Dude there are far more people on PS now than on gamepass.

Hahahahahaahaa some of you are beyond help.

@kuu2 said:

PS5 8k video output = 8K in Sony speak.

Why isn't a picture of the xbox one X alone side this one,since you know it was MS who changed the standard and classified checkerboard and dynamic res as true 4k. lol

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#389 Posted by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@pc_rocks said:
@emgesp said:
@pc_rocks said:
@emgesp said:

1. I don't have to. I have shown it multiple times, ask your buddy tormentos how he got owned about it multiple times. And that is on top of that Steam survey can't be used as metric because a) it's optional b) It has shown to be inaccurate as it only shows the PC first registered against the user and not the latest specs he had. Again that has been discussed to death. Sony made a false marketing claim.

4. Need to see proof that base PS4 is doing HDR like Xbone S.

5. I already told you checkberboarding isn't something special. The real meat is the code that developers write for each game. Pro has nothing to do with it. Another lie.

1. You never showed this evidence to me. You are beyond naive and ignorant if you honestly think the average PC gaming rig in 2013 was as powerful or more poweful than the PS4. Again, there is no evidence that proves your statement to be true. There were some PCs that were more powerful yes, but they were only exceptions, not the norm. The AMD 7850/7870 and whatever Nvidia's equivalent at the time was definitely was not the average GPU in PCs in 2013.

4. You are the one who made the claim that Base PS4 only does fake HDR with zero evidence.

5. Well yeah the quality of checkerboard rendering comes down to the developers that goes without saying. Nobody assumed PS4 Pro just turns on a simple switch and everything just works.

1. Because the evidence you quoted is not any evidence at all. Don't care about average build, that was a marketing ploy to fool casual idiots into thinking they are buying some uber PC in a console form. The average console in 2013 was still 2005 era 360 and PS3. Fact is there are always more powerful PC's out there in the wild than whatever consoles are sold. Nvidia 6 series was already out for over a year and PS4 was in fact equivalent to mid range GTX 5 series from 2010.

4. The onus is on you to prove thhat original PS4 support HDR because you need HDMI 2.0 for HDR pass through, one of the reasons why Xbone doesn't support HDR but Xbone S does.

5. That's what your boy Cerny tried to pass it off as which was my initial point. Go and watch the Pro reveal again, how they avoided native 4K like a plague, passing off checkberboarding as a magical bullet and something Sony/Pro invented/supports, the whole 'Dynamic 4K' marketing.

4. https://support.playstation.com/s/article/PS4-How-to-get-HDR?language=en_US

PS4 supports HDR 1920x1080p.

To support HDR, Xbox One S includes slightly higher TFLOPS and memory bandwidth over the original XBO.

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#390 Edited by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@Pedro said:
@ronvalencia said:

Who are you to disprove Crytek?

Evidence disproves Crytek. Its that simple.

Prove it.

GTX 1080 Ti already running DXR with it's 12 TFLOPS (1700Mhz) compute with gimped integer and async compute features. GTX 1080 Ti has 3MB L2 cache.

Vega 56 is a better "Turing GTX 1660 Ti" GPU i.e. Vega 56 has twice the TFLOPS with 2X L2 cache i.e. 4MB L2 cache like the larger Turing RTX 2070.

Vega 56 has no problems running mix integer and floating point workloads.

Without RT cores, raytracing compute workoads are running into GCN's strengths.

In terms of hardware features, Vega 56/64/VII are like Turing GPUs without RT cores**.

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#391 Posted by michaelmikado (364 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:
@michaelmikado said:
@ronvalencia said:

@michaelmikado:

192 bit GDDR6-12000 is reaching mainstream with GTX 1660 Ti. GTX 1060 has 192 bit bus PCB. AMD version has 256 bit bus PCB.

The cost/space/heat/power benefits are still below HBM2 and future iterations. I'm not saying they won't use GDDR6, but if they are thinking long term for smaller and more portable units. Like say a small unit that attaches to a PSVR headset like the Magic Eye or the Occulus Quest it makes sense that they would select the solution which would pose more benefits in different form factors.

HBM2 is expensive relative to GDDR6.

GTX 1160 TI is priced lower than Vega 56. https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=438,404&sort=price&page=1

NVIDIA's profit margin is higher than AMD's.

Current PSVR headset already has linkage with PS4 Pro.

VR headset with integrated AMD mobile APU is garbage.

PS4 Pro was made from RX-470/570's parts and cost structures

PS4 was made from 7850/R7-265's parts and cost structures

None of this is relevant beyond HBM2 vs GDDR6 which as stated, its largest advantage is its current pricing. However HBM2 prices are expected to drop faster and the trade-offs of power/heat/efficient/size/bandwidth per chip are all still there.

We have yet to get a VR headset with a navi APU. They could put the Zen2/navi equivalent of a V1000 embedded which is XB1 tier.

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#392 Posted by osan0 (15438 posts) -

a lot of vague stuff. good to see 3rd gen ryzen architecture but actual concrete specs are thin on the ground. same with the GPU (Custom navi tells is very little).

the most interesting thing is the storage setup. According to DF they mention speeds faster than than the fastest SSDs currently available for PCs. but at what cost? they surely cant stick a 2TB SSD in the console...not without a big hit on the BOM bill. i wonder are they looking at a storeMI type solution with a standard HDD and a 128GB or 256GB cache basically. from a cost/performance standpoint that makes a lot more sense.

that will be interesting to see. it's good to see loading times being tackled anyway. a stronger CPU and faster storage setup will make a world of difference. it would just be painful if consoles were still limited to 5400RPM HDDs next gen.

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#393 Posted by Subspecies (552 posts) -

8 pages of hyperventilating lems, enraged hermits, and squeaking sheep here and there. Yep, safe to say Sony's got next gen on lock. ;)

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#394 Posted by michaelmikado (364 posts) -

@osan0 said:

a lot of vague stuff. good to see 3rd gen ryzen architecture but actual concrete specs are thin on the ground. same with the GPU (Custom navi tells is very little).

the most interesting thing is the storage setup. According to DF they mention speeds faster than than the fastest SSDs currently available for PCs. but at what cost? they surely cant stick a 2TB SSD in the console...not without a big hit on the BOM bill. i wonder are they looking at a storeMI type solution with a standard HDD and a 128GB or 256GB cache basically. from a cost/performance standpoint that makes a lot more sense.

that will be interesting to see. it's good to see loading times being tackled anyway. a stronger CPU and faster storage setup will make a world of difference. it would just be painful if consoles were still limited to 5400RPM HDDs next gen.

I'm predicting they will use eUFS 3.0. It's the only type of fast storage available that's not in PCs. It would be somewhere between 128GB-512GB.

Avatar image for Pedro
#395 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:

Prove it.

GTX 1080 Ti already running DXR with it's 12 TFLOPS (1700Mhz) compute with gimped integer and async compute features. GTX 1080 Ti has 3MB L2 cache.

Vega 56 is a better "Turing GTX 1660 Ti" GPU i.e. Vega 56 has twice the TFLOPS with 2X L2 cache i.e. 4MB L2 cache like the larger Turing RTX 2070.

Vega 56 has no problems running mix integer and floating point workloads.

Without RT cores, raytracing compute workoads are running into GCN's strengths.

In terms of hardware features, Vega 56/64/VII are like Turing GPUs without RT cores**.

I am not the one to prove bud, Crytek is the one making the claim and they have not provided evidence of their raytracing capabilities. You are just spewing stuff hoping it sticks. Until Crytek allows for external evaluation their is a lack of evidence.

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#396 Posted by APiranhaAteMyVa (4123 posts) -

SONY DOMINATION CONTINUATION

Avatar image for Pedro
#397 Posted by Pedro (34904 posts) -

@tormentos said:
@kuu2 said:

PS5 8k video output = 8K in Sony speak.

Why isn't a picture of the xbox one X alone side this one,since you know it was MS who changed the standard and classified checkerboard and dynamic res as true 4k. lol

Why are you ignoring the picture and the fact that Sony was the first to tout 4k?

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#398 Posted by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@Pedro said:
@ronvalencia said:

Prove it.

GTX 1080 Ti already running DXR with it's 12 TFLOPS (1700Mhz) compute with gimped integer and async compute features. GTX 1080 Ti has 3MB L2 cache.

Vega 56 is a better "Turing GTX 1660 Ti" GPU i.e. Vega 56 has twice the TFLOPS with 2X L2 cache i.e. 4MB L2 cache like the larger Turing RTX 2070.

Vega 56 has no problems running mix integer and floating point workloads.

Without RT cores, raytracing compute workoads are running into GCN's strengths.

In terms of hardware features, Vega 56/64/VII are like Turing GPUs without RT cores**.

I am not the one to prove bud, Crytek is the one making the claim and they have not provided evidence of their raytracing capabilities. You are just spewing stuff hoping it sticks. Until Crytek allows for external evaluation their is a lack of evidence.

Prove Crytek's recent demo is not ray-tracing.

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#399 Edited by ronvalencia (28052 posts) -

@michaelmikado said:
@ronvalencia said:
@michaelmikado said:
@ronvalencia said:

@michaelmikado:

192 bit GDDR6-12000 is reaching mainstream with GTX 1660 Ti. GTX 1060 has 192 bit bus PCB. AMD version has 256 bit bus PCB.

The cost/space/heat/power benefits are still below HBM2 and future iterations. I'm not saying they won't use GDDR6, but if they are thinking long term for smaller and more portable units. Like say a small unit that attaches to a PSVR headset like the Magic Eye or the Occulus Quest it makes sense that they would select the solution which would pose more benefits in different form factors.

HBM2 is expensive relative to GDDR6.

GTX 1160 TI is priced lower than Vega 56. https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=438,404&sort=price&page=1

NVIDIA's profit margin is higher than AMD's.

Current PSVR headset already has linkage with PS4 Pro.

VR headset with integrated AMD mobile APU is garbage.

PS4 Pro was made from RX-470/570's parts and cost structures

PS4 was made from 7850/R7-265's parts and cost structures

None of this is relevant beyond HBM2 vs GDDR6 which as stated, its largest advantage is its current pricing. However HBM2 prices are expected to drop faster and the trade-offs of power/heat/efficient/size/bandwidth per chip are all still there.

We have yet to get a VR headset with a navi APU. They could put the Zen2/navi equivalent of a V1000 embedded which is XB1 tier.

V1000 is not XB1 tier. HINT: refer to my laptop's mobile Ryzen APU.

Using RyzenAdj tool, 15 watts TDP mode will severely throttle the APU.

My Ryzen APU laptop has 25 watts TDP limit set by HP. RyzenAdj tool enables to override laptop vendor's TDP settings e.g. 30 or 35 watts.

Loading Video...

V1000 is just mobile Ryzen APU.

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#400 Posted by DrLostRib (4970 posts) -

Welp, this got Ron-ed

Commence the poorly cobbled together techno babble and charts, and the rest of us will just wait for when none of his calculations and figures come to fruition.

See y'all in 2020