PS5 details from Mark Cerny: Backwards compatible, 8k, raytracing support, SSD standard, and more

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emgesp

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#601 emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7832 Posts
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:

What happens when you bump that up to 2.8 - 3.0Ghz?

On Cinebnech R15, 14 nm Ryzen ultra mobile at 3Ghz four cores active consumes about 20 watts. I config my Ryzen mobile for ~1.6 to 1.8 Ghz with ~1100 Mhz Vega 8 with 25 watt budget. I use RyzenAdj tool to change TDP profile to 30 or 35 watts, hence less throttling e.g. +2Ghz CPUs with Vega 8 at 1100 Mhz.

7nm improvements, Epyc 2 doubles CPU core count within Epyc 1's TDP limits.

7nm VII is over-voltage by AMD.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ao43xl/radeon_vii_insanely_overvolted_undervolting/

VII with under-voltage rivals RTX 2080's performance per watts.

8 core Zen v2 at 1.6Ghz is 4X math and 2X integer resources over PS4's Jaguar 8 cores at 1.6Ghz.

8 core Zen v2 at 1.6 Ghz + RX 3070 is effectively a drop in PS4 replacement with similar TDP and BOM cost.

So you honestly don't think the Zen CPU in the PS5 is gonna be in the 2.8 - 3.0Ghz range, I thought that was pretty much a given.

I get that Zen at the same clock speed is still an improvement over Jaguar, but I just don't buy Sony going under 2Ghz with the Zen cores, but I do understand how you got to that conclusion. Its definitely a possibility, but I still have doubts.

PS4 Pro has 2.1 Ghz 8 core Jaguar at 16nm

X1X has 2.3 Ghz 8 core Jaguar (lower latency) at 16nm

PS5 is asking for ??? Ghz 8 core Zen v2 at 7 nm. Zen v2 has 2X integer, 4X load/store(dual 256bit wide) and 4X floats (two AVX 256bit FMAC) when compared to Jaguar.

You're asking more than 2X-to-4X improvements from 16 nm Jaguar to 7nm Zen v2

If Sony finds a way assimilate Xbox One X's Vapor Chamber cooling solution within $399 box, then TDP limit is higher. Xbox One X is under $399 atm.

Yes, I am asking for Zen 2 to be more fully utilized in the consoles. 2.4Ghz+ or bust. 1.6Ghz would be a dissapointment even though its still big improvement over Jaguar.

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rzxv04

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#602 rzxv04
Member since 2018 • 686 Posts

@hofuldig said:
@rzxv04 said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:

What happens when you bump that up to 2.8 - 3.0Ghz?

On Cinebnech R15, 14 nm Ryzen ultra mobile at 3Ghz four cores active consumes about 20 watts. I config my Ryzen mobile for ~1.6 to 1.8 Ghz with ~1100 Mhz Vega 8 with 25 watt budget. I use RyzenAdj tool to change TDP profile to 30 or 35 watts, hence less throttling e.g. +2Ghz CPUs with Vega 8 at 1100 Mhz.

7nm improvements, Epyc 2 doubles CPU core count within Epyc 1's TDP limits.

7nm VII is over-voltage by AMD.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ao43xl/radeon_vii_insanely_overvolted_undervolting/

VII with under-voltage rivals RTX 2080's performance per watts.

8 core Zen v2 at 1.6Ghz is 4X math and 2X integer resources over PS4's Jaguar 8 cores at 1.6Ghz.

8 core Zen v2 at 1.6 Ghz + RX 3070 is effectively a drop in PS4 replacement with similar TDP and BOM cost.

So you honestly don't think the Zen CPU in the PS5 is gonna be in the 2.8 - 3.0Ghz range, I thought that was pretty much a given.

I get that Zen at the same clock speed is still an improvement over Jaguar, but I just don't buy Sony going under 2Ghz with the Zen cores, but I do understand how you got to that conclusion. Its definitely a possibility, but I still have doubts.

I may not know much about how the insides of a CPU work but I really highly doubt it's gonna be lower than 2.4 Ghz (above 1X's 2.3 Ghz), partly for marketing purposes. It'll be a mindshare for most folks that look at specs that know little to nothing about IPC, etc.

There are other aspects Sony/MS and AMD can tweak to reach that 2.4 Ghz minimum number. AFAIK the Xbox 1X even has a more customized jaguar.

According to the current leaks its possible that the CPU will have power states and it will clock up to 3.2GHz, it wouldnt be far fetched to think sony would do this considering that the PS3 and Xbox360 both had 3GHz CPUs and at 7NM it will sip power and wont even get particularly hot. and i still think that the PS5 will be $399 i mean look at the PS4 Pro, its bigger the CPU is higher clocked 1TBHDD and they added a 2nd identical GPU for $399.

I see.

Not sure what that entails but I'd like to believe that the next gen consoles won't have cooling/tdp based PC-esque clockspeeds as that kinda messes with the focus on squeezing out a fixed system.

It'll definitely have lower clock states for certain situations like when not gaming or for weak graphics games but for majority of games, specially AAA games, there's probably going to be only that fixed, top end clockspeed for the CPU other than current gen style of having 2 SKUs with 2 different clockspeeds even in the same family.

As far the pricing, I can't decide atm. Both $ 399/$ 499 makes sense to me. It depends on how much initial loss Sony wants to eat.

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emgesp

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#603  Edited By emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7832 Posts

@ronvalencia:

What TDP can one expect when you take this 14nm part and drop it down to 7nm? AMD claims 50% less power consumption than 14nm parts. Are you not convinced Sony would budget 22-25 watts for CPU alone?

AMD Ryzen™ 7 2700E

# of CPU Cores:
8
# of Threads:
16
Base Clock:
2.8GHz
Default TDP / TDP:
45W

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rzxv04

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#604 rzxv04
Member since 2018 • 686 Posts

@emgesp said:

@ronvalencia:

What TDP can one expect when you take this 14nm part and drop it down to 7nm?

AMD Ryzen™ 7 2700E

# of CPU Cores:
8
# of Threads:
16
Base Clock:
2.8GHz
Default TDP / TDP:
45W

I'd like to know as well. This specific desktop processor was also mentioned to me a few months ago by another computer enthusiast when speculating on the PS5's CPU.

Anyway, I also do wonder if Sony will decide to use something closer to mobile CPUs that has less cache. The average joe might not even notice that at a glance.

I'm also not sure if Sony and MS has to have a product that's specifically locked into just the Pro/X max power consumption and CPU/GPU power consumption ratio for next gen where Sony/MS can decide to put 15-30 more watts to the CPU if that makes a higher jump than extra 15-30 watts on the GPU side.

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ronvalencia

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#605  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28255 Posts

@emgesp said:

@ronvalencia:

What TDP can one expect when you take this 14nm part and drop it down to 7nm?

AMD Ryzen™ 7 2700E

# of CPU Cores:
8
# of Threads:
16
Base Clock:
2.8GHz
Default TDP / TDP:
45W

Without any design improvements

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips

The 7 nm node is a big deal for the foundry industry in general and TSMC in particular. When compared to the CLN16FF+ technology (TSMC’s most widely used FinFET process technology) the CLN7FF will enable chip designers to shrink their die sizes by 70% (at the same transistor count), drop power consumption by 60%, or increase frequency by 30% (at the same complexity).

Zen v2 has doubled AVX resource over Zen v1

45 watts(with 14 nm) --> 18 watts (with 7nm, no design improvements) ---> ~23 to 36 watts range (with double AVX resource, double load/store, double cache width).

For PCs, AMD plans to offer 2X CPU core count from 14 nm to 7nm across many SKU segments within the current TDP infrastructure limits.

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emgesp

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#606 emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7832 Posts
@ronvalencia said:

Without any design improvements

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips

The 7 nm node is a big deal for the foundry industry in general and TSMC in particular. When compared to the CLN16FF+ technology (TSMC’s most widely used FinFET process technology) the CLN7FF will enable chip designers to shrink their die sizes by 70% (at the same transistor count), drop power consumption by 60%, or increase frequency by 30% (at the same complexity).

Zen v2 has doubled AVX resource over Zen v1

45 watts(with 14 nm) --> 18 watt (with 7nm, no design improvements) ---> ~26 to 36 watts range (with double AVX resource, double load/store, double cache width).

For PCs, AMD plans to offer 2X CPU core count from 14 nm to 7nm across many SKU segments within the current TDP infrastructure limits.

What is PS4/Pro's Jaguar power consumption?

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Rockman999

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#607 Rockman999
Member since 2005 • 7508 Posts

So you're telling me that Nintendo will get left behind yet again? Oh no say it ain't so, Batman! ????

@SecretPolice:I'm calling it now, The MS Box will be more powerful this time around. ?

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ronvalencia

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#608  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28255 Posts

@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

Without any design improvements

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips

The 7 nm node is a big deal for the foundry industry in general and TSMC in particular. When compared to the CLN16FF+ technology (TSMC’s most widely used FinFET process technology) the CLN7FF will enable chip designers to shrink their die sizes by 70% (at the same transistor count), drop power consumption by 60%, or increase frequency by 30% (at the same complexity).

Zen v2 has doubled AVX resource over Zen v1

45 watts(with 14 nm) --> 18 watt (with 7nm, no design improvements) ---> ~26 to 36 watts range (with double AVX resource, double load/store, double cache width).

For PCs, AMD plans to offer 2X CPU core count from 14 nm to 7nm across many SKU segments within the current TDP infrastructure limits.

What is PS4/Pro's Jaguar power consumption?

PS4 Pro effectively used two sets of mobile CPU quad cores with RX-470 variant (~120 watts).

PS5... mobile Zen v2 CCX module + RX 3070 variant

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emgesp

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#609 emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7832 Posts
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

Without any design improvements

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips

The 7 nm node is a big deal for the foundry industry in general and TSMC in particular. When compared to the CLN16FF+ technology (TSMC’s most widely used FinFET process technology) the CLN7FF will enable chip designers to shrink their die sizes by 70% (at the same transistor count), drop power consumption by 60%, or increase frequency by 30% (at the same complexity).

Zen v2 has doubled AVX resource over Zen v1

45 watts(with 14 nm) --> 18 watt (with 7nm, no design improvements) ---> ~26 to 36 watts range (with double AVX resource, double load/store, double cache width).

For PCs, AMD plans to offer 2X CPU core count from 14 nm to 7nm across many SKU segments within the current TDP infrastructure limits.

What is PS4/Pro's Jaguar power consumption?

PS4 Pro effectively used two sets of mobile CPU quad cores with RX-470 (~120 watts).

PS5... mobile Zen v2 CCX module + RX 3070

No I mean how many watts were just the Jaguar cores consuming do you think?

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ronvalencia

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#610 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28255 Posts

@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

Without any design improvements

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12677/tsmc-kicks-off-volume-production-of-7nm-chips

The 7 nm node is a big deal for the foundry industry in general and TSMC in particular. When compared to the CLN16FF+ technology (TSMC’s most widely used FinFET process technology) the CLN7FF will enable chip designers to shrink their die sizes by 70% (at the same transistor count), drop power consumption by 60%, or increase frequency by 30% (at the same complexity).

Zen v2 has doubled AVX resource over Zen v1

45 watts(with 14 nm) --> 18 watt (with 7nm, no design improvements) ---> ~26 to 36 watts range (with double AVX resource, double load/store, double cache width).

For PCs, AMD plans to offer 2X CPU core count from 14 nm to 7nm across many SKU segments within the current TDP infrastructure limits.

What is PS4/Pro's Jaguar power consumption?

PS4 Pro effectively used two sets of mobile CPU quad cores with RX-470 (~120 watts).

PS5... mobile Zen v2 CCX module + RX 3070

No I mean how many watts were just the Jaguar cores consuming do you think?

About 20 watts for 8 core Jaguar at 2.1 Ghz.

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emgesp

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#611  Edited By emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7832 Posts
@ronvalencia said:

About 20 watts for 8 core Jaguar at 2.1 Ghz.

And you say 8 core Zen 2 at 1.6Ghz consumes around 20 watts as well, because I see no reason why Sony would lower TDP budget for PS5 CPU over Pro.

I'm guessing an 8 Core Zen 2 at 20 watts is higher than 1.6Ghz frequency.

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#612  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28255 Posts

@Rockman999 said:

So you're telling me that Nintendo will get left behind yet again? Oh no say it ain't so, Batman! ????

@SecretPolice:I'm calling it now, The MS Box will be more powerful this time around. ?

If MS is being offered two to three Xbox One Next boxes i.e. Lockhart, Scarlet and Anaconda, Sony would be offered the same deal.

PS4 Slim ~= XBO S

PS4 Pro A model = Not constructed on MS side

PS4 Pro B model, not constructed on Sony's side ~= X1X

Sony decides it's needs

MS decides it's needs

https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-scarlett

Google touted the power of its cloud-based Stadia platform as being more powerful than both the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X, hitting around 10.7 teraflops. Leading game journalist Jason Schreier commented on Resetera that both Sony and Microsoft are aiming higher than 10.7 TF for its next-gen consoles.

"The only thing to know for sure is that both Sony and Microsoft are aiming higher than that "10.7 teraflops" number that Google threw out last week. (And, as has been reported, Microsoft's got a few things in the works."

AMD wouldn't be bias with either Sony or MS.

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ronvalencia

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#613  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28255 Posts

@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

About 20 watts for 8 core Jaguar at 2.1 Ghz.

And you say 8 core Zen 2 at 1.6Ghz consumes around 20 watts as well, because I see no reason why Sony would lower TDP budget for PS5 CPU over Pro.

Reducing L3 cache would reduce power consumption and increase clock speed. 1.6Ghz could be used for PS4 BC timings.

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#614 emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7832 Posts
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

About 20 watts for 8 core Jaguar at 2.1 Ghz.

And you say 8 core Zen 2 at 1.6Ghz consumes around 20 watts as well, because I see no reason why Sony would lower TDP budget for PS5 CPU over Pro.

Reducing L3 cache would reduce power consumption and increase clock speed. 1.6Ghz could be used for PS4 BC timings.

Why would there even be a 1.6hz mode? In theory PS5 should have a boost mode by default like Pro offers. Boost mode didn't seem to cause any issues with non Pro enhanced PS4 titles.

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ronvalencia

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#615  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 28255 Posts

@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:
@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

About 20 watts for 8 core Jaguar at 2.1 Ghz.

And you say 8 core Zen 2 at 1.6Ghz consumes around 20 watts as well, because I see no reason why Sony would lower TDP budget for PS5 CPU over Pro.

Reducing L3 cache would reduce power consumption and increase clock speed. 1.6Ghz could be used for PS4 BC timings.

Why would there even be a 1.6hz mode? In theory PS5 should have a boost mode by default like Pro offers. Boost mode didn't seem to cause any issues with non Pro enhanced PS4 titles.

PS4 Pro boost mode for non Pro enhanced PS4 titles has caused issues. https://answers.ea.com/t5/Technical-Issues/PS4-Pro-Graphic-glitch-only-on-PlayStation-4-Pro/td-p/5994808

Can't stop game console programmers using clock speed as timers instead of high performance timers.