Poll: Think we could have the "BASE" and "PRO" versions out of the gate next gen?

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Posted by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) 10 months, 23 days ago

Poll: Poll: Think we could have the "BASE" and "PRO" versions out of the gate next gen? (78 votes)

Definitely. 5%
Probably. 18%
Maybe. 13%
Unlikely. 33%
Nope. 31%

SW, do you guys think we'd have the "Base" and "Pro" versions of the PS5/XB2 next gen out of the gate or at least very close to the release window like a "Pro" version even if the "Base" model came out only a year earlier?

I'm thinking they might make more profit this way if they can cater to some of the current Pro/X markets asap or even more profit from the super snob effect market by making the difference even more expensive early on, say base is $ 399/499 and the PS5 Pro/XBX2 = $ 599/699.

Cannibalization would be negligible as long as the projected profit is much higher.

This doesn't even have to stop the console makers from making an "Ultra Premium Console" as its "mid gen refresh" if they wanted to.

By the end of the gen, most AAA devs should probably be much more used to this kind of landscape too. Base PS4 games still look ok specially with 1st party titles.

I recently made a poll about TLoU 2 on how it might be fake/too scripted and some even already accept such downgrades as a norm.

Sony and MS can just show all "gameplay trailers" on these more premium machines. Then again, this could just be a moving target. No one's stopping them from using souped up dev kits or the future "Ultra Premium Console" even if we have the "Pro" versions out of the gate.

I guess this could be hard for those with crab mentality from the same camp even if it's just the choice between 2 machines but is it worth appeasing them compared to squeezing the premium market asap; the ones that are buying the Pros/1Xs today?

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#1 Posted by henrythefifth (2240 posts) -

Not really.

Offering high end and low end version of a console is so last season.

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#2 Edited by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) -

@henrythefifth said:

Not really.

Offering high end and low end version of a console is so last season.

So back to the flavors of the past PS360 gen or older or would it have to be more than two versions?

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#4 Posted by npiet1 (2097 posts) -

if the x1x is future compatibile, i would say that would be the base and whatever is next would be "pro"

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#5 Posted by PC_Rocks (2062 posts) -

Probably yes.

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#6 Posted by scatteh316 (10137 posts) -

I hope not.......developers are already pushed for time and budget without giving them another platform to waste time, money and resources on.

Give them one box to focus on and the time and money they save can be spent on making a better game with more content and less bugs.

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#7 Posted by QuadKnight (12916 posts) -

Probably not. The Pro hasn't set the world on fire and the 1X is a flop. Most people are still buying the base version of consoles.

We'll probably get higher disc capacity versions of consoles at launch but I don't see them doing a "pro" version of consoles at launch, at least not Sony. MS might try it because they are desperate but I don't see Sony doing it.

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#8 Posted by I_P_Daily (11438 posts) -

I doubt it as the base PS5 should be powerful enough for a sequel to the flop known as PSVR.

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#9 Edited by ellos (1999 posts) -

Yeah seems like MS will do that. They are set to introduce a family of next xboxes. That is one way to guarantee that your gonna have the most powerful console. Otherwise your competitor can humble you again with the base consoles.

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#10 Posted by Ant_17 (12166 posts) -

Don't think Sony will make a PRO version again, since they already have a base for VR, so PS5 will work just fine.

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#11 Posted by SakusEnvoy (4764 posts) -

The tech probably won’t be there immediately. The Xbox One X and Pro could not have existed in 2013. It’s not a matter just of price, but of the advancements that occur over a 3-4 year period which make mid-gen upgrades viable.

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#12 Posted by ReCloud (4418 posts) -

I really don't want this to happen.

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#13 Edited by emgesp (7830 posts) -

Not possible at launch. You can only make a console so powerful at a given size and limited power consumption. For a Pro version to offer a decent advantage over the base console at launch it would have to be drastically bigger in size. Unless it offers at least a 2x performance over base hardware there is not point of said console to even exist.

Unless you are assuming base hardware will be weak balls, like sub 10 Teraflops.

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#14 Edited by lamprey263 (36052 posts) -

nope, they weren't offered out the gate this gen, that's why they were mid-gen upgrades, if there's going to be different units at launch my guess is it's going to be the usual variance in HDD sizes

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#15 Posted by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) -

@emgesp said:

Not possible at launch. You can only make a console so powerful at a given size and limited power consumption. For a Pro version to offer a decent advantage over the base console at launch it would have to be drastically bigger in size. Unless it offers at least a 2x performance over base hardware there is not point of said console to even exist.

Unless you are assuming base hardware will be weak balls, like sub 10 Teraflops.

Made me think of an out-the-gate-pro as slightly larger than the OG XB1.

I think it's doable if the OG XB1 was a reference size, plus or minus, specially with an external PSU thanks to the actual existing "GTX 1080 Hot Rod PC" with an i7 made by a guy or two. While that doesn't have a BRD, it's not really made by Sony or MS and still mostly innards of off-the-shelf parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3mwmZe55BA

With a multimillion budget and crapton of inhouse, probably above average engineers I'm guessing they can and it's only a matter of price even if AMD counterparts have worse thermals than Intel and NV parts.

Then again, if the PS5/XB2 have the real top of the line as their base like the base "GTX 3080" (2 gens early top of the line after current Pascals?). Then I guess it's gonna be way less probable.

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#16 Posted by hrt_rulz01 (18705 posts) -

I don't think so... especially not Sony (they'll be sticking to the old generation model I'd say).

But I can see MS maybe doing an updated version of XB1 X (maybe with a new CPU - which will become the base console), and release the more powerful new console alongside it.

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#17 Posted by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) -

@hrt_rulz01 said:

I don't think so... especially not Sony (they'll be sticking to the old generation model I'd say).

But I can see MS maybe doing an updated version of XB1 X (maybe with a new CPU - which will become the base console), and release the more powerful new console alongside it.

Wouldn't they be better off with 3 true new tiers all with next gen CPU/GPU/APU rather than older GPU's limiting new techniques from the next gens, say an something like the base model ultra cheap like $ 299 but only a "1080p next gen machine".

Then again you might be onto something here. They could just turn off fancier things for that kind of modified 1X.

I doubt something like missing raytracing shadows, less particle effects, lower res would make the next gen games/ms exclusives unplayable.

I'm really interested in still seeing MS own both ends like current gen of having the cheapest and most expensive current gens. Sounds pretty smart.

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#18 Posted by emgesp (7830 posts) -

@j2zon2591: With 10 - 12 Teraflops being the assumed baseline, 2x that performance just can't happen even in a OG XB1 size console with 7nm fab without some issues with heat and power consumption.

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#19 Edited by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) -

@emgesp said:

@j2zon2591: With 10 - 12 Teraflops being the assumed baseline, 2x that performance just can't happen even in a OG XB1 size console with 7nm fab without some issues with heat and power consumption.

Care to expand more? You can stack 5 Asus Zephrus that's gonna be at 3.5 inch vs OG XB1's 3.1 inch thickness and that's about x5 GTX 1070s (24 Nvidia TFLOPS?) crammed inside. This had been possible since last year.

I'm not sure how a souped up 2020-2021 "Pro" that has 20+ TFLOPS still improbable as far as engineering goes and with something like sub 1K pricing due to console's nature of really low or no profit margin per console hardware sold at least initially.

I can easily imagine that much space of 5 Zephyrus, only using 1 powerful 2020-2021 GPU with acceptable cooling that's no worse than the OG PS4 (still noisy IMO but didn't stop it being a final market success).

Throw away, the battery, keyboards, extra PCBs, displays, there's really a lot that can be crammed in something around the size of an OG XB1.

The only thing I can realistically think of is pricing and this is where it falls apart.

With the 1X, we only have some data with a $ 499 console. I guess Sony/MS later on might not go into a territory that's way above that price since it's untested with the current economy and with bad reception of the expensive PS3 way back when.

The only true market here is that there will be some aka the snob market. I believe Nvidia knows how to milk these people but doesn't that kind of market exist basically everywhere at any point in time. Can that be profitable enough without much damage to their branding?

Maybe produce something like 202,000 or 202,100 units only referencing the next gen release date/s for the first year at $ 899-999. Pretty much nothing in comparison to a few millions of base models made. Tag it with "Limited, Premium, Ultra, A Taste of the Future" for that extra marketing subconscious tactics.

Like I said, this is pretty much an impossible territory as far as layman terms go aka I'm pushing it and grabbing straws.

Anyway, I am surprised that there's this case called a DAN A4. It looks like that's 25% larger than the OG XB1.

Apparently with some mods probably made by 3-4 people, they can cram in an i9, 600 Watt internal PSU, 64 GB RAM, SSD and a Titan XP in that body and is available today. most if not all are off the shelf parts.

Price isn't the point exactly the point there since the XP and i9 are very, very expensive relative to more typical pc or console hardware but how much power we can already cram today in a small box.

I also think chips are a lot tougher than we think as I've had 80-90 degrees ATI/AMD Cards that were the 4870 512mb that ran for 3 years and never died, just retired the card; 5870 2GB Eyefinity for 6 years and never died, also just retired. Both about 2 hours gaming everyday.

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#20 Posted by stuff238 (3284 posts) -

@j2zon2591: Doesn’t sound smart at all if this strategy they are using now is causing them to fail LOL

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#21 Posted by KillzoneSnake (2441 posts) -

PS5 will just be a 4K ps4 with barely better graphics... who the hell cares about next gen lol

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#22 Posted by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) -

@stuff238 said:

@j2zon2591: Doesn’t sound smart at all if this strategy they are using now is causing them to fail LOL

I'm not sure what you mean.

Have there been reports of losses from MS and Sony directly due to this new current market of having a base and premium consoles?

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#23 Posted by dimebag667 (1208 posts) -

Dual sku's is fucking terrible. The best move ps4 made was having only one.......until the they made a mistake with pro.

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#24 Posted by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) -

@dimebag667 said:

Dual sku's is fucking terrible. The best move ps4 made was having only one.......until the they made a mistake with pro.

How so? Devs seem to optimize for the most popular base machine right? and just upticks stuff for the more premium console.

I'm not getting the impression that the PRO is hampering the base PS4 specially with games like the big first party games.

They're premium console seem to be mostly just there for that smaller market that wants extra oomph.

Large portion of the industry seem also used to something like harder like PC ports with far more complex combinations of hardware and setting configurations. A base to premium "up-port" seems relatively far more easier because it's just 1 extra hardware.

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#25 Posted by dimebag667 (1208 posts) -

@j2zon2591 said:
@dimebag667 said:

Dual sku's is fucking terrible. The best move ps4 made was having only one.......until the they made a mistake with pro.

How so? Devs seem to optimize for the most popular base machine right? and just upticks stuff for the more premium console.

I'm not getting the impression that the PRO is hampering the base PS4 specially with games like the big first party games.

They're premium console seem to be mostly just there for that smaller market that wants extra oomph.

Large portion of the industry seem also used to something like harder like PC ports with far more complex combinations of hardware and setting configurations. A base to premium "up-port" seems relatively far more easier because it's just 1 extra hardware.

I must've been drunk posting or something, because I have no clue why I was so hostile about dual sku's :) I don't like them because it makes the next gen leap that much more underwhelming. And I feel like it's a waste of resources, but I get what you're saying.

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#26 Posted by GarGx1 (10928 posts) -

PS4 Pro and X1X will be the next base line, the current Xbox One and PS4 will become obsolete.

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#27 Posted by Pedro (34005 posts) -

Most likely not especially with MS. X1X would be the new base. Generation less gaming. :)

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#28 Posted by emgesp (7830 posts) -

@KillzoneSnake: You probably also said PS4 was just going to be PS3 at 1080p with barely better graphics.

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#29 Posted by emgesp (7830 posts) -
@GarGx1 said:

PS4 Pro and X1X will be the next base line, the current Xbox One and PS4 will become obsolete.

Nope, not happening.

1. Both companies have stated that any game that runs on those consoles have to run on the OG models.

2. Jaguar CPU makes it pointless to have the Pro and XB1X be the new baseline when PS5 and Next Xbox will be Ryzen based. No reason to hold back next-gen like that.

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#30 Posted by phbz (4331 posts) -

I think it makes more sense to have a Pro version further ahead as there's access to better tech at a lower price. But a revised X might become the new base on the MS side along with a "Pro" version, tic-tacing every 4 years or so.

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#31 Posted by emgesp (7830 posts) -
@phbz said:

I think it makes more sense to have a Pro version further ahead as there's access to better tech at a lower price. But a revised X might become the new base on the MS side along with a "Pro" version, tic-tacing every 4 years or so.

Well that revised X better have Ryzen CPU or it won't have a chance in hell becoming the new baseline. The Ryzen CPU is enough of a generational leap to leave the old consoles behind, no point holding back Ryzen.

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#32 Edited by Howmakewood (5801 posts) -

Unlikely, 600$ consoles sell poorly, why we get these mid-gen refreshes is because of the advances in tech

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#33 Posted by GarGx1 (10928 posts) -
@emgesp said:
@GarGx1 said:

PS4 Pro and X1X will be the next base line, the current Xbox One and PS4 will become obsolete.

Nope, not happening.

1. Both companies have stated that any game that runs on those consoles have to run on the OG models.

2. Jaguar CPU makes it pointless to have the Pro and XB1X be the new baseline when PS5 and Next Xbox will be Ryzen based. No reason to hold back next-gen like that.

Watch this space.

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#34 Edited by PurpleMan5000 (9730 posts) -

I really doubt it. I don't see re-releases of consoles with extra power as a good thing, anyway. Games will continue getting made for the weakest version, which sort of defeats the whole point of an upgrade.

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#35 Posted by KillzoneSnake (2441 posts) -

@emgesp: nope, but PS4 was a smaller jump than PS2 to PS3, much smaller. PS5 is looking like a 4K PS4 with barely better graphics. Xbox One X is the perfect example, a 2017 $500 console which doesn't have the power for true 4K which top graphics. What you think Sony gonna release 2019-2020 for $400? Magic?

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#36 Posted by Dr_Vancouver (997 posts) -

Eventually assuredly they will, but out of the gate that will never happen. They won't even admit that it is a possibility until a few years in to the generation. It would be a horrible business decision.

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#37 Posted by Gatygun (1429 posts) -

Technically impossible

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#38 Posted by Mercenary848 (11954 posts) -

I hope so, but I doubt it

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#39 Posted by HalcyonScarlet (8352 posts) -

No, the consumer is willing to spend at launch, at the most seems to be around £350. So if you're making a console, not at a loss, realistically, it's not going to knock anyones socks off at that price. There's nothing they can do, incremental consoles are the future.

They could get away with it in the past because there was a HUGE difference between consoles, PS2 to PS3 for example. But now not so much. This gen hasn't come close to making last gen feel obsolete in any way. There's very little I still wouldn't mind playing on my Xbox 360. On the other hand a lot of PS1 and PS2 games, can be a thing to get into because they haven't aged well.

I'd argue that the PC can still be better value than the increment updates. We only need to upgrade our graphics cards, for example, I just needed to buy a GTX 1060 6GB, which was around £230 for me at the time. But with the console, every thing is bought again, so the Xbox One X is over £400. And let's be honest, it is just used as a graphics card up date over the original Xbox One.

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#40 Posted by j2zon2591 (3571 posts) -

@HalcyonScarlet said:

No, the consumer is willing to spend at launch, at the most seems to be around £350. So if you're making a console, not at a loss, realistically, it's not going to knock anyones socks off at that price. There's nothing they can do, incremental consoles are the future.

They could get away with it in the past because there was a HUGE difference between consoles, PS2 to PS3 for example. But now not so much. This gen hasn't come close to making last gen feel obsolete in any way. There's very little I still wouldn't mind playing on my Xbox 360. On the other hand a lot of PS1 and PS2 games, can be a thing to get into because they haven't aged well.

I'd argue that the PC can still be better value than the increment updates. We only need to upgrade our graphics cards, for example, I just needed to buy a GTX 1060 6GB, which was around £230 for me at the time. But with the console, every thing is bought again, so the Xbox One X is over £400. And let's be honest, it is just used as a graphics card up date over the original Xbox One.

Now that you mention older gens, I heard there were various configurations last gen although IDK if they were available at the start. Something about HDDs with 360 and some USB port SKUs on the PS3? I'm not sure if these are true though. If that's true, then there could be enough wiggleroom for a more expensive product.

The more premium unit isn't targetting "most" consumers and more about the snob market but the system has to be done in a profitable manner which I am sure a lot of companies already how to manage this specific target specially in consumer electronics.

As with the PC statement, I definitely prefer PC because it's more open and I spend more time alt tabbed into the web while only running 1 machine. I tend to jump to multiple stuff while gaming so sometimes consoles feel cramped in that way. I don't like typing on smart phones though I haven't really bothered pairing a keyboard on our phones/tablets/phablets.

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#41 Posted by magmadragoonx4 (654 posts) -

It's really hard to have an idea of what will happen next. Do we even know if that will be happening again?

I think the cost to the respective companies and sent directly to the consumer would be higher with smaller gains if done sooner rather than later.

Ps4 pro is a seriously sloppy upgrade that for me personally feels like the upgrade is just a hair difference from the base model and won't have much of a role next gen(personally mine overheats if I play above 1080p).

Xbox one X on the other hand has a pretty big improvement over the older models and maybe it could be a gradual phasing out with xbox games. For example original could have low res lowest settings games, S with something a little better and X with medium settings and new xbox having high settings etc.