Platinum executive not very excited by next gen hardware, calls it "more of the same"

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foxhound_fox

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#51 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

At this point, it's like being a PC gamer, and getting the incremental upgrade you've been saving for, but not getting to choose any of the hardware you are installing. Or the perks and freedoms that come with gaming on a PC.

It's the reason why I still don't own a PS4 or XBO. Other than a handful of games that I wouldn't have time to play, what benefit is there for me to buy them?

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Grey_Eyed_Elf

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#52 Grey_Eyed_Elf
Member since 2011 • 7860 Posts

@pc_rocks said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Very true... It would make multi-platform games near impossible to run on low-medium PC hardware due to the architectural differences.

That said if they did go full custom you would never see a $399 console ever again. Even these coming will more than likely come in at $499.

Wrong on multiple fronts. Consoles would die in a heart beat if they go to custom route. Designing the CPU/GPU from the ground up is way way too costly and even then there would be no surety it's better than PC counter part. Nvidia/Intel/AMD has decades of experience and base to work on. If by some miracle it's possible, it won't be feasible enough to design it specifically for consoles. Sony just partly funded the development of CELL by partnering with IBM and even then the thinking was CELL will be used in everything from PC's, Appliances, TVs, data centers etc. to justify the investments which definitely didn't pan off and it ended up in disaster due to the arrival of GPGPU. Most custom consoles were ended at PS2 because by that time industry matured and you already have your winners and losers of the CPU/GPU. PS2 it self couldn't compete with the arrival of HW T&L.

Another thing is, who would even then design the game for this custom hardware and let go of the large consumer base. It wouldn't make games impossible to run on low-mid PC's but impractical to make games for such hardware. Even PS3 struggled in that regards compared to 360. Factor in the ballooning cost of development and yeah, it's easy to see why it's a no brainer.

It was lose lose for both sides... Games on PC at that era where horrible to run, unless they were developed with PC in mind. Custom hardware definitely lost out the war and I couldn't be happier with the results now as games a far better optimised than they use to be in custom era.

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VFighter

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#53 VFighter
Member since 2016 • 7935 Posts

@pc_rocks: Yes they would lol.

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Grey_Eyed_Elf

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#54 Grey_Eyed_Elf
Member since 2011 • 7860 Posts

@musicalmac said:

Interesting responses to this thread so far, maybe I'm just more willing to trust a dev who's created games I've found more interesting and fun than most others of the sort. The criticism laid here are the same criticisms I shared with regards to the XO and PS4 at their release.

I hope we get a more noticeable and interesting leap in overall fidelity than we're expecting, but maybe not if we're to rely on Platinum's opinion.

The only thing you need to know is that Navi is marketed at AMD's E3 reveal as 1440 GPU card for PC... And the TDP for the full fat 40 CU Navi chip is drastically higher than the chip used in a X1X which MS worked their a** off to work on a console level of TDP so any console using the Navi architecture would have to cut corners to even get the Pro which is a sub 9TFLOP GPU that is only a little better than a Vega 56.

4K/30 with Ray Tracing is not going to happen without them lowering settings drastically compared to the PC Ultra settings.

Next generation has the potential of being the worst performing one of all time once less capable developers start to adopt ray tracing for their games.

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VFighter

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#55 VFighter
Member since 2016 • 7935 Posts

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Luckly nobody cares about ray tracing other then the nerdiest of nerds. Its probably not going to make it into most games.

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BenjaminBanklin

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#56 BenjaminBanklin
Member since 2004 • 7521 Posts
@boxrekt said:

Yeah no, going to have to agree to disagree on that one. PS3 to PS4 was an enormous leap. Just as big if not bigger than PS2 to PS3

Taking a game from the same franchise:

PS2

PS3

PS4

in motion It's not even close!

If I used an exclusive like God of War for example, you'd see an even a bigger jump.

Maybe you have a nostalgic memory of the leap from PS2 to PS3 but PS4 is leaps and bounds ahead of PS3. Revisit a few PS3 titles then come back to PS4 and you'll realize how far off the mark you actually are.

Yeah, this gen has been mindblowing. PS4 was a surprisingly capable box. It also helped that the engines we've had this gen are capable of incredible stuff. The stuff from this gen, will look much better for back-compat for next gen than the stuff from last gen looks now.

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Grey_Eyed_Elf

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#57 Grey_Eyed_Elf
Member since 2011 • 7860 Posts

@vfighter said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Luckly nobody cares about ray tracing other then the nerdiest of nerds. Its probably not going to make it into most games.

That's false... Kinda.

Nerds know what Ray Tracing is, but every gamer cares about graphics more or less and everyone who will look at a next generation game and be excited by its visuals will notice the difference especially with first party games so they won't know what it is but they will tell the difference and they will and do care.

I hate it when people act like graphics don't matter or they don't care about graphics when the truth is if their favourite game was re-mastered they would be all over it.

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Phreek300

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#58 Phreek300
Member since 2007 • 672 Posts

I don't care about TFlops on either console. They sound like they are very close in power so meh. The one thing I want to see is if PS5 will push VR forward in the console space. I am personally more interested in that than raw graphics performance.

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deactivated-5f3ec00254b0d

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#59  Edited By deactivated-5f3ec00254b0d
Member since 2009 • 6278 Posts

I agree, consoles are not that exciting anymore. Xbox forced everyone to move towards more accessible architectures and there's really no way around it since it's easier and cheaper to make games for them. The PS3 struggling to beat the X360 was the last drop and the risk is just not worth taking.

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Archangel3371

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#60 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 33520 Posts

I don’t really mind having more of the same but more power from the next gen consoles myself. I’m not really into VR, motion controls, etc.

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strategyfn

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#61  Edited By strategyfn
Member since 2012 • 639 Posts

Yes, Xbox 360 to PS4 was a pretty big jump. How do I assume this, I use to play Elder Scrolls Oblivion on my 360. My 360 RROD and years later I bought Oblivion again for PC. Unless there was something wrong with my PC, Oblivion looked pretty bad on my PC and not the way I remembered it. Skyrim on the otherhand looks great on my same PC and I assume the PS4.

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AJStyles

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#62 AJStyles
Member since 2018 • 1430 Posts

Platinum just makes hack and slash games with a new skin every year.

Why is he complaining when his games are bottom of the barrel?

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Telekill

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#63  Edited By Telekill
Member since 2003 • 10193 Posts

More of the same? Good.

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ronvalencia

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#64  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@SolidGame_basic said:

https://www.gamesradar.com/platinum-games-executive-is-already-bored-by-project-scarlett-and-ps5/

In an interview with Video Game Chronicles at E3, the cofounder of Platinum Games (the devs behind titles like the Bayonetta franchise and Nier: Automata) said that the hardware in the PS5 and Project Scarlett was too by-the-numbers to excite him.

“It’s OK. But it’s more of the same, quite frankly, compared to previous generations. It’s nothing that’s disruptive or super innovative, if you ask me.”

...Inaba goes on to say that he preferred the days when console hardware was based on custom chips that you couldn't get on PC, rather than slightly modified versions of existing components.

I guess this guy is hard to please. I'm still excited. Yea I'm sure it will be another "higher resolution, more framerate" yada yada talk, but innovation comes from the developers. And I think they will find ways to make next gen great. Your thoughts, SW?

Geforce 8800 GTX nuked "teh CELL"'s stream compute capability. NVIDIA's CUDA wave32 compute format won the war and it's the only stream compute instruction set that survived from 2006 besides the old Intel SSE2/SSE3/SSE4.

AMD's Compute Shader Wave64 format is EOL. NAVI supports wave32 compute. NVIDIA's market dominance forced AMD to follow NVIDIA's leadership.

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ronvalencia

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#65  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@musicalmac said:

Interesting responses to this thread so far, maybe I'm just more willing to trust a dev who's created games I've found more interesting and fun than most others of the sort. The criticism laid here are the same criticisms I shared with regards to the XO and PS4 at their release.

I hope we get a more noticeable and interesting leap in overall fidelity than we're expecting, but maybe not if we're to rely on Platinum's opinion.

The only thing you need to know is that Navi is marketed at AMD's E3 reveal as 1440 GPU card for PC... And the TDP for the full fat 40 CU Navi chip is drastically higher than the chip used in a X1X which MS worked their a** off to work on a console level of TDP so any console using the Navi architecture would have to cut corners to even get the Pro which is a sub 9TFLOP GPU that is only a little better than a Vega 56.

4K/30 with Ray Tracing is not going to happen without them lowering settings drastically compared to the PC Ultra settings.

Next generation has the potential of being the worst performing one of all time once less capable developers start to adopt ray tracing for their games.

NAVI CU contains double texture filtering units when compared to GCN CU in X1X GPU i.e. 2X raster hardware vs compute.

NAVI CU contains double ROPS units when compared to GCN CU in X1X GPU i.e. 2X raster hardware vs compute.

MS need to worked their a** off to fit RDNA 2 GPU into game console TDP. Scarlet's APU is about 380 to 400 mm2 size.

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Jag85

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#66 Jag85
Member since 2005 • 15388 Posts

If you compare the jumps in FLOPS performance (CPU+GPU) between generations, you can clearly see diminishing returns:

Sony:

  • PS2 - 6 GFLOPS
  • PS3 - 400 GFLOPS (60x)
  • PS4 - 1.8 TFLOPS (4.5x)

Microsoft:

  • Xbox - 7 GFLOPS
  • X360 - 360 GFLOPS (50x)
  • Xbone - 1.3 TFLOPS (3.6x)

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appariti0n

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#67 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3351 Posts

@Star67: It's probably footage captured from pcsx2 on PC lol.

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mrbojangles25

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#68 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 49053 Posts

It's going to be a very underwhelming advance, I think.

With that said, a developer saying it's "more of the same" is a bit ironic seeing how it's the developer that drives innovation in games. Hardware can do a lot to help, but it's not responsible for it. Many attempts in the past to actually innovate through hardware have come off as gimmicks (Kinect, Wiimote, etc) or sacrificed too much (Switch) to get there.

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Pedro

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#69 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 46462 Posts

Its funny seeing someone post an image of a PS2 game at 1280*720 forgetting that its a 480p system.

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Grey_Eyed_Elf

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#70 Grey_Eyed_Elf
Member since 2011 • 7860 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@musicalmac said:

Interesting responses to this thread so far, maybe I'm just more willing to trust a dev who's created games I've found more interesting and fun than most others of the sort. The criticism laid here are the same criticisms I shared with regards to the XO and PS4 at their release.

I hope we get a more noticeable and interesting leap in overall fidelity than we're expecting, but maybe not if we're to rely on Platinum's opinion.

The only thing you need to know is that Navi is marketed at AMD's E3 reveal as 1440 GPU card for PC... And the TDP for the full fat 40 CU Navi chip is drastically higher than the chip used in a X1X which MS worked their a** off to work on a console level of TDP so any console using the Navi architecture would have to cut corners to even get the Pro which is a sub 9TFLOP GPU that is only a little better than a Vega 56.

4K/30 with Ray Tracing is not going to happen without them lowering settings drastically compared to the PC Ultra settings.

Next generation has the potential of being the worst performing one of all time once less capable developers start to adopt ray tracing for their games.

NAVI CU contains double texture filtering units when compared to GCN CU in X1X GPU i.e. 2X raster hardware vs compute.

NAVI CU contains double ROPS units when compared to GCN CU in X1X GPU i.e. 2X raster hardware vs compute.

MS need to worked their a** off to fit RDNA 2 GPU into game console TDP. Scarlet's APU is about 380 to 400 mm2 size.

I imagine if Sony opts for no hardware accelerated Ray Tracing that they will have a substantial advantage in performance... I hope MS knows what they are doing, a 8 CU count drop just to get ray tracing will cost them in performance in non ray traced games which has the potential of being the majority of games for the next 2 years or more.

Either way I hope they both do adopt hardware accelerated approach as it will help push ray tracing optimisation and development.

I don't think we will see anything more than 4K/30 for the high majority of games but better graphics and some ray tracing features here and there with faster load times.

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ronvalencia

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#71  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@musicalmac said:

Interesting responses to this thread so far, maybe I'm just more willing to trust a dev who's created games I've found more interesting and fun than most others of the sort. The criticism laid here are the same criticisms I shared with regards to the XO and PS4 at their release.

I hope we get a more noticeable and interesting leap in overall fidelity than we're expecting, but maybe not if we're to rely on Platinum's opinion.

The only thing you need to know is that Navi is marketed at AMD's E3 reveal as 1440 GPU card for PC... And the TDP for the full fat 40 CU Navi chip is drastically higher than the chip used in a X1X which MS worked their a** off to work on a console level of TDP so any console using the Navi architecture would have to cut corners to even get the Pro which is a sub 9TFLOP GPU that is only a little better than a Vega 56.

4K/30 with Ray Tracing is not going to happen without them lowering settings drastically compared to the PC Ultra settings.

Next generation has the potential of being the worst performing one of all time once less capable developers start to adopt ray tracing for their games.

NAVI CU contains double texture filtering units when compared to GCN CU in X1X GPU i.e. 2X raster hardware vs compute.

NAVI CU contains double ROPS units when compared to GCN CU in X1X GPU i.e. 2X raster hardware vs compute.

MS need to worked their a** off to fit RDNA 2 GPU into game console TDP. Scarlet's APU is about 380 to 400 mm2 size.

I imagine if Sony opts for no hardware accelerated Ray Tracing that they will have a substantial advantage in performance... I hope MS knows what they are doing, a 8 CU count drop just to get ray tracing will cost them in performance in non ray traced games which has the potential of being the majority of games for the next 2 years or more.

Either way I hope they both do adopt hardware accelerated approach as it will help push ray tracing optimisation and development.

I don't think we will see anything more than 4K/30 for the high majority of games but better graphics and some ray tracing features here and there with faster load times.

Zen v2 + NAVI 10 already consumed 321 mm2 while Scarlet's APU is about 380 to 400 mm2 size.

TSMC's 7nm+ has 20 percent transistor density and 10% performance uplift or 15% power efficiency increase.

AMD plans to release "Zen v3" and "RDNA 2" next year with TSMC's 7nm+ (cited AMD's PPT PR road map).

AMD's TSMC 7 nm based products (Tick)

AMD's TSMC 7 nm+ based products (Tock)

My observations with Zen v2:

One of AMD's approach to reduce CPU latency is to increase L3 cache storage size and rename it as "game cache".

As you may know, Zen v2 still has Zen v1's 4C/8T CCX design with a new interconnect between the two CCX modules. AMD "bolted-on" a large 32 MB L3 cache which can result in traffic reduction between 4C/8T CCX modules, hence reduce latency. This is a brute force method to reduce latency instead of building a native 8C/16T CCX module. The large L3 cache is integral to Zen v2's latency reduction measures, but semi-custom Zen 2 could reduce L3 cache and take slightly higher latency hit.

My MS's release pattern observations:

For Xbox Scorpio

Both PS4 Pro (Nov 2016) and RX-480 (June 2016) was released during the same year 2016, hence silicon maturity and TDP scaling between products are similar.

Xbox One X was release on November 2017 with improved performance per watt when compared to 1st generation Polaris based silicon maturity.

Xbox One X GPU (GCN 44CU ASIC)'s 6 TFLOPS base clock rivalled AMD's RX-580 (GCN 36CU ASIC)'s basic 6 TFLOPS in boost mode while X1X's GPU consumes less power + 2MB render cache with ROPS change + 4 extra GDDR5 chips when compared to RX-580's 185 watts.

For Xbox Scarlet,

RX 5700 XT was released on July 7, 2020

Xbox Scarlet's planned release is November 2020

Microsoft's Scarlet development and release plan is the same as RX-480 to Xbox Scorpio's release plan.

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ronvalencia

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#72  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Jag85 said:

If you compare the jumps in FLOPS performance (CPU+GPU) between generations, you can clearly see diminishing returns:

Sony:

  • PS2 - 6 GFLOPS
  • PS3 - 400 GFLOPS (60x)
  • PS4 - 1.8 TFLOPS (4.5x)

Microsoft:

  • Xbox - 7 GFLOPS
  • X360 - 360 GFLOPS (50x)
  • Xbone - 1.3 TFLOPS (3.6x)

Your PS4 and XBO FLOPS numbers didn't include CPU while you included CPU+GPU FLOPS for the older game consoles.

Sony

  • PS4 - ~1.9 TFLOPS
  • PS4 Pro - ~4.3 TFLOPS (2.26X)

MS

  • XBO ~1.4 TFLOPS
  • X1X ~6.1 TFLOPS (4.36X)

8 core Jaguar CPU at 1.6 Ghz yields about 100 GFLOPS FP32 or 200 GFLOPS FP16 rapid pack maths.

Modern GPUs has extra FLOPS from fix function floating point texture filtering, tessellation, floating point formal ROPS alpha/blending modes. Game consoles like PS2 and original Xbox doesn't have hardware tessellation to reduce workloads on the CPU/GPU.

The original Xbox GPU's pixel shaders are integer based hence it's not FLOPS but IOPS

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freedomfreak

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#73 freedomfreak
Member since 2004 • 52034 Posts

Have they looked at their own catalog this gen?

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cainetao11

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#74 cainetao11
Member since 2006 • 37255 Posts

LOL We all have things we wish didn't change. I miss the days of being able to tell a person, " sorry I was out" when I don't answer their call simply because fvck off.

PS3 hurt Sony's pocket and they watched the devs that produce over 90% of a console's library struggle with its architecture. Cutting costs and streamlining the product production only makes sense.

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ronvalencia

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#75 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@ajstyles said:

Platinum just makes hack and slash games with a new skin every year.

Why is he complaining when his games are bottom of the barrel?

Remove "eye candy" 2B female character from Nier: Automata, the game is just a hack and slash game. It's not Horizon Dawn.

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xhawk27

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#76 xhawk27
Member since 2010 • 11484 Posts

The PS5 gpu will not be twice as powerful as the X1X gpu. Don't expect it to be less than $600 if it is.

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Pedro

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#77 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 46462 Posts

@xhawk27 said:

The PS5 gpu will not be twice as powerful as the X1X gpu. Don't expect it to be less than $600 if it is.

Well it technically can be but not in TFLOPS metrics.

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ronvalencia

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#78  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@xhawk27 said:

The PS5 gpu will not be twice as powerful as the X1X gpu. Don't expect it to be less than $600 if it is.

Loading Video...

RTX 2060 6GB at 2Ghz OC delivered nearly 2X over X1X's 4K 30 hz results. We know RX 5700 beats RTX 2060 FE 6GB.

RTX 2060 at 2Ghz would be gimped by 192 bit 6GB VRAM (DCC effectiveness not factored) which is mitigated by incoming RTX 2060 Super 256 bit 8GB VRAM

NAVI's TFLOPS is different from GCN's TFLOPS.

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PC_Rocks

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#79 PC_Rocks
Member since 2018 • 5023 Posts

@vfighter said:

@pc_rocks: Yes they would lol.

Don't know what you're saying but I'm 100% sure you're wrong.

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PC_Rocks

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#80 PC_Rocks
Member since 2018 • 5023 Posts
@vfighter said:

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Luckly nobody cares about ray tracing other then the nerdiest of nerds. Its probably not going to make it into most games.

Sound like sour grapes.

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HalcyonScarlet

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#81 HalcyonScarlet
Member since 2011 • 9261 Posts

Completely agree with him. Console hardware used to be a lot more exciting to me. Honestly couldn't give much of a shit now. They just seem like incremental updates. In terms of hardware, same stuff, but faster loading. In terms of capability, not convinced they will blow the Xbox One X out of the water yet, considering they have to cost a similar price and if you're not doing that, than what is the point.

I have to admit, I thought, MS would work in phases. Phase out the Xbox One completely, and focus purely on the Xbox One X for a while.

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Vaeh

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#82 Vaeh
Member since 2016 • 957 Posts

lol people are still buying consoles.