One of the best third person games released 20 years ago, and many people did not realise this, including GS

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commander

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#1  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

I know, hitman 2 (2002) was great, to some even better, but codename 47 introduced many new features to gaming, it was one of the biggest landmarks in gaming, yet it is missed by many people.

It introduced ragdoll effects for instance, and while it was not only important for realism, it was also important for gameplay. I will never forget when I dragged my first victim to a sewer and dumped it there. Not by a premade animation, no dragging the body across the street and then let gravity do its work when I dragged it into the sewer.

Changing of clothing and how the ai handles this, revolutionary but because it was needed in the first levels to pass them. this was deemed too difficult for some and they didn't realize what a masterpiece this was.

Because it was not the only way to play this game, you could play hitman rambo style if you wanted too. Well not exactly just run and shoot, but the game had such deep mechanics , you could kill everyone if you knew how to use it.

The lean animation for instance was amazing in firefights, you could use pretty much anything as cover, and protect yourself while shooting enemies, and no this was not some premade animation like you see in rdr2 and gta V.

and during this instance the game also showed how well it did bullet physics and damage, I will never forget using a tree for cover and see bullets shooting off chunks of wood while I cover and shoot.

The music , the story, the setup of the missions were all very well done and the game has never been topped imo, but the second one surely did match it.

I don't know what this hitman 3 will be but frankly , hitman 1 could not give me same vibe the first two games gave me, maybe I should have played further than the first level, never tried 2. I certainly try 3 in vr tho.

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#2  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 44204 Posts

Gonna have to disagree buddy.

Do recall playing this, but it was more "this is a cool concept" than "this is a good game". Didn't reach that point for me until Silent assassin, which, though not perfect itself, was a far more polished and better executed experience.

Sort of put it in the realm of Street Fighter/Street Fighter II, where most people don't really give a shit about the original, and rightly so.

Hitman Contracts is basically a remake of Codename 47 fixing it problems, with mega-juicy atmosphere and great original levels on top of it.

Isn't really much point going back and playing Codename 47 as anything other than a curio item when Contracts exists.

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#3  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@uninspiredcup:

The fact that you say you didn't really reach that point until silent assassin is something that I don't understand, because it's basically the same game. Silent assassin is just easier.

Yet in hitman codename 47 you can blast your way through everything. If you know how to lean and shoot...

I did not know contracts had level of 47 in them, that's defenitely better to go back to that the original, since that engine is a bit better in terms of graphics.

also I didn't know 47 had problems, I always thought people had problem with the difficulty, since I finished the game about 10 times back in the day and never encountered any gamebreaking bugs.

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#4 Ghosts4ever
Member since 2015 • 17206 Posts

The original Hitman codename 47 actually suck. it had cool concept execute very badly. It was Hitman 2 silent assassin that actually made a series.

strange if IO drop Hitman series after original, we may never have such a great iconic franchise nor have amazing games.

apart from original and absolution all of Hitman games been blast.

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#5 commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@ghosts4ever: it was ten times better than max payne, what is this about concept, this was full fledged game, the first level was a bit of concept, the rest was full fledged levels.

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#6  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 44204 Posts
@commander said:

@uninspiredcup:

I did not know contracts had level of 47 in them, that's defenitely better to go back to that the original, since that engine is a bit better in terms of graphics.

Yea, it's a partial remake. Not a compete one.

The characters' been Léon'd, close to death having a fever dream of past memories.

A nice detail being... it's a stormy rainy night while this is happening, so every level in the dream takes place at night in the rain, adding to a far heavier, ominous atmosphere compared to Silent Assassin and subsequent entries.

Defining characteristic that sets it apart.

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#7 glez13
Member since 2006 • 10172 Posts

The problem with the original Hitman is that it was a cool concept but the game itself was a mess mechanically, conceptually and technically.In other words it is a buggy mess with potential. That is why Silent Assassin is the actual first big hit in the series. I would even say that the broken nature of Codename 47 is the only reason Contracts exists as a sorts of half-way remaster.

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#8 ProtossRushX
Member since 2007 • 8856 Posts

Hitman the best?

No thanks.

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#9  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@glez13 said:

The problem with the original Hitman is that it was a cool concept but the game itself was a mess mechanically, conceptually and technically.In other words it is a buggy mess with potential. That is why Silent Assassin is the actual first big hit in the series. I would even say that the broken nature of Codename 47 is the only reason Contracts exists as a sorts of half-way remaster.

That I really don't get, like I mentioned to @uninspiredcup I finished this game like 10 times . The game didn't have any gamebreaking bugs, and mechanically it was a revolution because of the third person lean system. The rag doll system, and bullet physics.

Like I said, I could blast my way through every level, not because I knew where which enemy was and stuff like that but simply by using the cover system and simply being a good shooter in general, like in a multiplayer game.

Of course in some scenarios you can't let the target escape and there you had to remain hidden or you had to kill more than one target, but these were the small levels.

Hitman 2 wasn't any different, apart from the fact that the gunplay but especially the stealth based gameplay was a lot easier, in that sense hitman codename 47 was a lot more realistic.

Ask any hardcore hitman player and they will all tell you the same thing, codename 47 is still the best hitman from the first trilogy because of its realism.

Hitman 2 silent assassin is the dumbed down version for the masses, with a slightly better graphics engine.

It's like saying kingdoms of amulur is better than dark souls because it's easier, and this didn't even come close to the difficulty in dark souls.

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#10  Edited By locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24100 Posts

Frustrating game with clunky camera and controls, foggy graphics, psychic AI and non-existent save points. Skip it.

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#11 commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@locopatho: it's a 20 year old game lol, who plays 3d games from 20 years ago lmao

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#12  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 44204 Posts

@commander: Play games like MDK, Tomb Raider 1/2/3, Halflife and expansions and what not every couple years.

When compare the original Tomb Raider' levels design to what it is now, for all it's pretty aesthetics, it's kind of shite, missing that sense of complexity and scale of the originals where they would quite happily murder the player with a misstep.

Like, that shit is actually engaging.

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#13  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@uninspiredcup: You will find that most people can't get past those old graphics, even the ones that were adults when they played it, so they knew how good that game was for its time. I mean you still play this.

I would say in most cases that is more nostalgia than anything, but you do have a point, I'm sure there are some games that have a certain gameplay element that hasn't been done better, or not the same anyway with newer graphics and physics.

For tomb raider that is certainly the case when you compare newer versions. I never was much into that kind of gameplay though, so I don't know if there somethign newer that uses a similar type of gameplay, maybe prince of persia.

Still I don't see this much of an incentive to play this for younger people and most games have been vastly improved, as much praise I would give halflife for the fact that it is landmark in terms of ai and level design. There is so much newer stuff that does this a lot better.

As for hitman, it didn't age well , because the graphics were part of the immersion, and the new versions doesn't seem to do it for me as well, it doesn't have that level of control the first ones had, and that is that lean system. It uses standard cover systems like gta and red dead , and it's that level of control that made it possible to go rambo style in the first ones, against seemingly impossible odds.

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#14  Edited By locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24100 Posts

@commander said:

@locopatho: it's a 20 year old game lol, who plays 3d games from 20 years ago lmao

People who appreciate art :)

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#15 commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@locopatho said:
@commander said:

@locopatho: it's a 20 year old game lol, who plays 3d games from 20 years ago lmao

People who appreciate art :)

it's like playing 2d games from the seventies lol. That's a hard sell, sure there are exceptions that last , also because of the legacy.

but hitman's blocky head is a bit too much for me. It's something silent assasin suffers less from.

That doesn't change the fact that for its time, this game was revolutionary.

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#16 locopatho
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@commander said:
@locopatho said:
@commander said:

@locopatho: it's a 20 year old game lol, who plays 3d games from 20 years ago lmao

People who appreciate art :)

it's like playing 2d games from the seventies lol. That's a hard sell, sure there are exceptions that last , also because of the legacy.

but hitman's blocky head is a bit too much for me. It's something silent assasin suffers less from.

That doesn't change the fact that for its time, this game was revolutionary.

Art doesn't expire, it stays beautiful forever. 3D games that were ever worth playing still are. The idea that art can be "missed" if you aren't in the right place/time is repugnant to me. But, to each their own.

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#17  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@locopatho said:
@commander said:

it's like playing 2d games from the seventies lol. That's a hard sell, sure there are exceptions that last , also because of the legacy.

but hitman's blocky head is a bit too much for me. It's something silent assasin suffers less from.

That doesn't change the fact that for its time, this game was revolutionary.

Art doesn't expire, it stays beautiful forever. 3D games that were ever worth playing still are. The idea that art can be "missed" if you aren't in the right place/time is repugnant to me. But, to each their own.

In this case it does man, it's like a caveman drawing pictures on walls and then comparing it with rubens. You will never have that same sense of appreciation with those cavemen pictures as somebody who was there because those cavemen simply didn't know any better.

Just as you can't imagine how it was for a grown cavemen to taste cooked food for the first time, you can't appreciate this art fully if you weren't there.

Your first comment already proves it, you said hitman had foggy graphics. Even in the review I posted that gave the game a 5.2, the reviewer is mesmerized by the graphics.

Although the gameplay can be frustrating, the graphics are a different matter entirely. Scenes, characters, and weapons are well detailed and memorable, and they are often beautifully rendered. Textures like carved wall moldings, peeling paint on clapboards, or exotic statuary and vases are vivid and crisp. The graphics are also richly and vibrantly colored

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#18 hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 6940 Posts

I remember the day they introduced the wall hack and how everyone was bitching about it. Now its just part of the series and not even super omega hyper hardcore gamers such as ghost even mentions it.

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#19 locopatho
Member since 2003 • 24100 Posts
@commander said:

you can't appreciate this art fully if you weren't there.

I'll just repeat, in a friendly way, that I despise this attitude and think it is propaganda spread by those who have a vested financial interest in creating the "latest and greatest" and making us feel anxious that we are "missing out", when art is actually permanent and eternal.

@commander said:

Your first comment already proves it, you said hitman had foggy graphics. Even in the review I posted that gave the game a 5.2, the reviewer is mesmerized by the graphics.

Hitman was foggy, which hurt the gameplay. That the reviewer was impressed is fine, but I wouldn't have been. I hated PS1 fogginess and load times, for example, and don't care that it was the best the time and tech could handle. Whereas some new, younger gamers could play Resi 1 today and love it! Art doesn't expire :)

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#20 Ghosts4ever
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@hardwenzen said:

I remember the day they introduced the wall hack and how everyone was bitching about it. Now its just part of the series and not even super omega hyper hardcore gamers such as ghost even mentions it.

wall hack is entirely optional in new series.

It was mandatory in absolution which suck.

apart from Absolution and codename 47. every game been really amazing.

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#21 hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 6940 Posts

@ghosts4ever said:
@hardwenzen said:

I remember the day they introduced the wall hack and how everyone was bitching about it. Now its just part of the series and not even super omega hyper hardcore gamers such as ghost even mentions it.

wall hack is entirely optional in new series.

It was mandatory in absolution which suck.

apart from Absolution and codename 47. every game been really amazing.

Its not optional when everyone playing the game uses it. It shouldn't be in the game at all.

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#22  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16076 Posts

@locopatho said:
@commander said:

you can't appreciate this art fully if you weren't there.

I'll just repeat, in a friendly way, that I despise this attitude and think it is propaganda spread by those who have a vested financial interest in creating the "latest and greatest" and making us feel anxious that we are "missing out", when art is actually permanent and eternal.

@commander said:

Your first comment already proves it, you said hitman had foggy graphics. Even in the review I posted that gave the game a 5.2, the reviewer is mesmerized by the graphics.

Hitman was foggy, which hurt the gameplay. That the reviewer was impressed is fine, but I wouldn't have been. I hated PS1 fogginess and load times, for example, and don't care that it was the best the time and tech could handle. Whereas some new, younger gamers could play Resi 1 today and love it! Art doesn't expire :)

It's not propaganda spread, it's just plain ecomics, technological advancements create better hardware and better hardware create more freedom for artists.

You're giving the example of resident evil , but that ain't a true 3d game, the environment is 2d and in that sense it was less handicapped than a complete 3d game like hitman (which the ps1 could have never run btw). That's also the reason why it stands the test of time a lot better. The artists had a lot of freedom with the 2d environment.

Sure art doesn't expire and it's also subjective but that doesn't change the fact that hitman blocky head wasn't a choice, it was the best they could do at that time.

and since at that time, it was the best people had seen and because of that it carried exponentionally more weight than it does today.

Hitman's goal was to make a realistic game, and for that time they succeeded, but if you look at it now, you will see that a lot of envirnoments are bland and empty. That doesn't mean I still can't aprreciate it as a game, but a lot of that is nostalgia, and respect.

In terms of art, like I said, this is like rubens with a dozen more techniques, colors, and tools compared to the cavemen writing on the wall of a rock. and that was also art.

that doesn't mean it expired, it was just the beginning of a certain artform and you simply cannot see it with the same eyes those cavemen saw it.

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#23  Edited By lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 38334 Posts

Man, the shit I could do with TES: Oblivion's ragdoll bodies, you'd think I never mentally matured beyond 12 years old. I guess I have Hitman to thank for that.