Nintendo or Sony - who has the best 1st party as of right now?

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SolidGame_basic

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Poll Nintendo or Sony - who has the best 1st party as of right now? (127 votes)

Nintendo (Zelda, Mario, Smash Bros, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Kirby, Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, Luigi's Mansion) 60%
Sony (God of War, Last of Us, Uncharted, Horizon Zero Dawn, Spider-Man, Dreams, Days Gone, Gran Turismo, MLB) 40%

I'll admit, Sony kills it when it comes to third person adventure games, but other than that, I think Nintendo is great at what they do. Sure, it's the same IP's every gen, but they always find ways to make them relevant and good. It's a tough choice. Because I value versatility, I'm going to give Nintendo a slight edge on this one. What say you, SW? Who has the best 1st party between Nintendo and Sony?

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Fuhrer_D

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#51 Fuhrer_D
Member since 2011 • 1125 Posts

@SolidGame_basic: Nintendo and its not even close. The Show is the only thing in Sony's line up I'd like to see on other consoles.

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blamix

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#52 blamix
Member since 2006 • 2031 Posts

This is really hard

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nepu7supastar7

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#53 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6773 Posts

@SolidGame_basic:

Nintendo refuses to capitalize on Metroid. So I'll give the edge to Sony. They know how to treat their more serious games right.

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AJuiceMatts

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#54 AJuiceMatts
Member since 2019 • 88 Posts

Nintendo.

When Ninty brings it, they are untouchable.

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enzyme36

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#55 enzyme36
Member since 2007 • 5557 Posts

With just Metroid, Zelda, and Fire Emblem Nintendo's games are better than most companies' lineups.

I would even put Cap, BGS, and FS in front of Sony 1st party. But we are talking about the best of the best here, so these split hairs all come down to personal taste.

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MirkoS77

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#56  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17657 Posts

I don't even need to vote to know the outcome of this one, and reading the thread, I'm not wrong.

Sick to death of Nintendo's games. I don't care how many new innovations in gameplay they introduce dressed up in 20-30+ year old clothing. It's f**king boring, and I've long past grown fatigued of Mario yelling "Wahoo!" after nailing that triple jump. Mario, Zelda, Smash, and Kart can go chill in the Caribbean indefinitely for all I care. I want new universes, new characters, new worlds, new sounds, new music.

Nintendo's new games don't feel like full fledged experiences (like their mainstays), they feel like minimalist constructs solely there as guinea pigs for one or two new very simplistic gameplay concepts. ARMs and Splatoon, for two examples. Are they fun? Sure, but to me they're just as shallow in their scope as a game as many complain that Sony's games are mechanically. Yet people love to cite these new properties in example of Nintendo really putting effort into creating massive new IPs on the same level as Mario and Zelda, games that are multilayered in mechanical and gameplay depth, iterated upon through many years. They're not even close to that. They are superficial experiences at best.

Sony may be shallower in their gameplay, but at least they put significant effort into putting out new properties that encompass new aspects that make something far more fresh than a simple paint mechanic in Splatoon or what is in ARMs. And if Nintendo takes more risk in mechanical ingenuity and depth, it's typically always shoved into IPs we've been seeing forever or in those that exist in minimal budgets. I have no idea how people tolerate this shit.

So yeah, I'll take Sony any day of the f**king week.

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deactivated-6092a2d005fba

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#57 deactivated-6092a2d005fba
Member since 2015 • 22663 Posts

@evil_loli: Well if you've been here for a while and have had conversations with him you would know he's not.

He may be a mod but his bias is still the same :)

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X_CAPCOM_X

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#58 X_CAPCOM_X
Member since 2004 • 9552 Posts

Nintendo has botw.

That is all I think I need to say.

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Valgaav_219

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#59  Edited By Valgaav_219
Member since 2017 • 3129 Posts
@sealionact said:

MS.

Forza, Gears, Cuphead, Ori, Minecraft, Sea of Thieves, State of Decay, Halo.

Much more variation in genres than Sony (6 out of 9 games are 3rd person adventures) and much less reliant on one franchise (Mario) than Nintendo.

Out of the two you mentioned, Nintendo wins imo every time....But both are in dire need of a great FPS franchise.

Microsoft isn't even in the discussion. Then you proceed to list that rubbish lmao

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NathanDrakeSwag

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#60 NathanDrakeSwag
Member since 2013 • 17392 Posts
@X_CAPCOM_X said:

Nintendo has botw.

That is all I think I need to say.

One of the most overrated games of all time. I love Nintendo's output this gen. BotW is a snoozer though.

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iambatman7986

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#61 iambatman7986
Member since 2013 • 4575 Posts

3rd person action adventure games is where Sony wins this fight. Look at the list and you will see that almost all of their exclusives fall in this genre.

Everything else I give to Nintendo.

If I had to pick one, Nintendo would win the fight. They both make great games which is why I own both consoles.

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lebanese_boy

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#62 lebanese_boy
Member since 2003 • 18036 Posts

All respect due to Sony's 1st part offerings, I would choose Nintendo any day of the week. It's not even comparable.

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deactivated-5e171d7dbd091

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#63 deactivated-5e171d7dbd091
Member since 2018 • 284 Posts

@i_p_daily said:

@evil_loli: Well if you've been here for a while and have had conversations with him you would know he's not.

He may be a mod but his bias is still the same :)

I know Davillain all to well and trust me, he maybe a little harsh on MS but at times, he does have a point. Plus, he help me in the past and share our liking's in Anime group.

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AJStyles

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#64 AJStyles
Member since 2018 • 1430 Posts

Sony easily wins because they have the best games.

Nintendo has Kiddy trash games that no one actually likes playing. They are poor quality.

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Planeforger

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#65 Planeforger
Member since 2004 • 19570 Posts

It's not even close - Nintendo obviously has the best (and biggest range of) first party titles.

Sony gets some great third party stuff though.

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deactivated-60113e7859d7d

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#66  Edited By deactivated-60113e7859d7d
Member since 2017 • 3808 Posts

@MirkoS77: I do wish Nintendo spent way more money on any one original IP, that they were more ambitious and risky with their new IPs. But I'd rather play another Mario, Zelda or Donkey Kong than another generic movie game, because I get way better than that from actual movies. It's pretty easy to describe modern AAA western games. Skill trees, open world, safe, over the shoulder, XP, serious, photorealistic, crafting materials, upgrades, fetch, talking, talking, talking, scripted, unskippable... I cringe at the idea of a modern style Shadow of the Colossus, designed to check all of Sony's boxes.

Oh, I forgot audiologs/journals. **** them! What a lazy, tedious way to tell a story.

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sealionact

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#67 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9816 Posts

@valgaav_219: All consoles have rubbish. I just prefer MS's rubbish to Sonys or nintys.

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ArchoNils2

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#68 ArchoNils2
Member since 2005 • 10534 Posts

@r-gamer said:

@ArchoNils2: lol this is a common argument from many sheep but no. Mario is a platformer and it's something Nintendo specializes in.

Mario

Mario Kart

SSB

Kirby

Animal Crossing

They have all had similar gameplay mechanics for over a decade.

Outside of the latest Zelda there hasn't been any massive advances in gameplay.

lol you literally just proved my point xD You just missed A LOT of other Mario games like Tennis, Olympics, Party etc.

My point still stand, if you take all games that feature Mario, you already have more variety than all of Sonys first party games combined.

The argument of games in the same genre having similar gameplay is just stupid. Uncharted 4 has "similar" gameplay to Uncharted 1, does that make it a bad game?

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KungfuKitten

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#69  Edited By KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27389 Posts

I really like all of Sony's exclusives this gen (or all the ones I played at least) but they're not masterpieces. For me this has to go to Nintendo. And not just the design but also the variation.

But all those Sony games are good to great. I would happily recommend them to people.

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R-Gamer

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#70  Edited By R-Gamer
Member since 2019 • 2221 Posts

@ArchoNils2: It doesn't make it a bad game because their similar but alot of Mario spinoff games are very average. Mario Tennis, Mario Party and Olympics for an example

As far as variety within Sony games there's more then people give them credit for. They specialize in Action Adventure ( my favorite genre) but there is a vast difference between something like UC4, GoW and Spiderman.

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pyro1245

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#71 pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 9397 Posts

I'm not a big fan of Sony's offering this gen. Outside of Bloodborne and R&C, all their games have been very similar.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Nintendo has more hardcore strategy games - so I'll give it to them.

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uninspiredcup

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#72 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58950 Posts

Why is this a question?

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Valgaav_219

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#73  Edited By Valgaav_219
Member since 2017 • 3129 Posts

@sealionact said:

@valgaav_219: All consoles have rubbish. I just prefer MS's rubbish to Sonys or nintys.

Just having fun, y'kno. System Wars gone System Wars lol

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Valgaav_219

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#74 Valgaav_219
Member since 2017 • 3129 Posts

@r-gamer said:

@ArchoNils2: It doesn't make it a bad game because their similar but alot of Mario spinoff games are very average. Mario Tennis, Mario Party and Olympics for an example

As far as variety within Sony games there's more then people give them credit for. They specialize in Action Adventure ( my favorite genre) but there is a vast difference between something like UC4, GoW and Spiderman.

Agreed. They're also constantly regurgitating the same sh*t. I was playing Mario Tennis on Virtual Boy well over 20 years ago. I also played it on Wii like 10 years ago. Now I'm supposed to be psyched to do it again a 3rd, 4th, or 5th time gtfoh lol

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Jag85

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#75 Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19543 Posts

Nintendo, easily. Sony's games suffer from a serious lack of variety. Most just follow the same third-person cinematic action-adventure formula.

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R-Gamer

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#76 R-Gamer
Member since 2019 • 2221 Posts

@valgaav_219: Agreed. I love SSBU but its virtually the same game that was on the N64 with more characters and better graphics.

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sealionact

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#77 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9816 Posts

@valgaav_219: All good....what's the point of system Wars, if you can't have a bit of fun?

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Pikminmaniac

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#78  Edited By Pikminmaniac
Member since 2006 • 11513 Posts

Sony titles I enjoyed in the past few years

-God of War (9.0)

-infamous Second son/first light (8.0)

Nintendo titles I enjoyed in the past few years

-Pikmin 3 (9.0)

-Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze (9.5)

-Super Mario 3D World (9.0)

-Super Mario Odyssey (8.5)

-Breath of the Wild (10)

-Smash ultimate (8.5)

If Bloodborne was 1st party for Sony that would have been a superb 9.5 from me. That game is fantastic.

I also really liked the latest Ratchet and Clank, but would that count considering they didn't own Insomniac until just recently.

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MirkoS77

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#79  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17657 Posts
@ezekiel43 said:

@MirkoS77: I do wish Nintendo spent way more money on any one original IP, that they were more ambitious and risky with their new IPs. But I'd rather play another Mario, Zelda or Donkey Kong than another generic movie game, because I get way better than that from actual movies. It's pretty easy to describe modern AAA western games. Skill trees, open world, safe, over the shoulder, XP, serious, photorealistic, crafting materials, upgrades, fetch, talking, talking, talking, scripted, unskippable... I cringe at the idea of a modern style Shadow of the Colossus, designed to check all of Sony's boxes.

Oh, I forgot audiologs/journals. **** them! What a lazy, tedious way to tell a story.

I'll be the first to admit that Nintendo comes up with completely novel and cool new ideas that we see in games like Splatoon and ARMs that tend to eschew the formulaic, but they consequently feel incredibly one-dimensional in execution. Nintendo brainstorms in a vacuum and then says, "what type of game can we create that fits this particular gameplay mechanic?" instead of coming up with a overarching concept first and then designing gameplay that is conducive to it. Because it seems to me that taking the latter approach would afford much more multi-layered depth in gameplay system synergy than thinking up one or two new mechanics and working solely upon that foundation.

Looking back at some of the all time greats Nintendo has crafted I wonder if a game like Metroid Prime started out with this design philosophy, or did they begin with an idea and created a game around it as was necessary to accomplish its goals? Same with Pikmin, a concept for an entire game Miyamoto came up with after he had observed insects in his garden working, not a single gameplay idea. Formulaic isn't so much the point, it's placing the cart before the horse. They invent the mechanic first, and then seemingly offhandedly think of a context they can shove it into as an afterthought in justification.

I question that philosophy, think some of the best games we've ever seen from Nintendo stand in stark contradiction to it, and believe those that adhere to it have turned out to be original and fresh, sure, but also nothing but shells in experimentation for the most superficial of gameplay systems and experiences that will be remembered fondly, but won't nearly go down in history as Nintendo's best.

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Jag85

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#80 Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19543 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:
@ezekiel43 said:

@MirkoS77: I do wish Nintendo spent way more money on any one original IP, that they were more ambitious and risky with their new IPs. But I'd rather play another Mario, Zelda or Donkey Kong than another generic movie game, because I get way better than that from actual movies. It's pretty easy to describe modern AAA western games. Skill trees, open world, safe, over the shoulder, XP, serious, photorealistic, crafting materials, upgrades, fetch, talking, talking, talking, scripted, unskippable... I cringe at the idea of a modern style Shadow of the Colossus, designed to check all of Sony's boxes.

Oh, I forgot audiologs/journals. **** them! What a lazy, tedious way to tell a story.

I'll be the first to admit that Nintendo comes up with completely novel and cool new ideas that we see in games like Splatoon and ARMs that tend to eschew the formulaic, but they consequently feel incredibly one-dimensional in execution. Nintendo brainstorms in a vacuum and then says, "what type of game can we create that fits this particular gameplay mechanic?" instead of coming up with a overarching concept first and then designing gameplay that is conducive to it. Because it seems to me that taking the latter approach would afford much more multi-layered depth in gameplay system synergy than thinking up one or two new mechanics and working solely upon that foundation.

Why not both?

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MirkoS77

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#81 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17657 Posts

@Jag85: that’s a good question. Ask Nintendo.

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Jag85

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#82  Edited By Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19543 Posts

@MirkoS77: You kind of already answered the question: Nintendo already does both. For every Splatoon or ARMS, there's a BOTW or Odyssey.

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MirkoS77

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#83  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17657 Posts

@Jag85 said:

@MirkoS77: You kind of already answered the question: Nintendo already does both. For every Splatoon or ARMS, there's a BOTW or Odyssey.

Franchises that have been around for decades; I'm talking about new IPs. Because the philosophy they use is the same for both.....they come up with one or two gameplay ideas/mechanics and use it (gravity for Galaxy and Kart, enemy possession in Odyssey, and physics in BotW). If it doesn't fit into any existing property, they'll create another that will.....Miyamoto's stated as much.

I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm years past fatigued of playing in the Mushroom Kingdom and Hyrule, and a few new mechanical novelties every iteration isn't enough to overcome that tedium. That's why I prefer Sony despite their formula/shallowness. I have fun with Nintendo's games, but with a sense it's obligatory. And anything that's completely new from them, again, comes off as one-dimensional experiments for single gameplay conceptualizations. Punching with the controller. Painting to capture territory and traversing through it. I guess many are satisfied with these types of games, but I'd love to see more ambitious new attempts from Nintendo that encompass tiered gameplay systems in full-fledged endevours.

Why not both? As long as they approach their software design as coming up with one or two ideas at a time to then shove into existing IPs or create very simplistic catalysts for their realizations mostly as an afterthought, I believe they're handicapping their potential.

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___gamemaster__

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#84 ___gamemaster__
Member since 2009 • 3347 Posts

i own both but sony still hands down has the best exclusive right now.

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Jag85

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#85  Edited By Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19543 Posts

@MirkoS77: Physics is not a mechanic. BOTW wasn't designed around a mechanic, but was designed to be a throwback to the open-world formula of the original Zelda, and then the mechanics were developed along the way. In other words, your criticism does not apply to BOTW.

Your argument seems to have more to do with story and setting, rather than gameplay. Sony are good at coming up with "new" IPs, stories or settings (or rather, borrowing them from movies), but they rarely ever innovate when it comes to actual gameplay. They always play it safe with the gameplay.

As for Splatoon and ARMS, they're essentially arcade-style games (like those old Sega arcade games), which have a different game design philosophy compared to "AAA" games. Nintendo has shown they can do both very well, an "arcade" philosophy for the likes of Splatoon and ARMS, and a "AAA" philosophy for the likes of BOTW.

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FireEmblem_Man

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#86 FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts
@nepu7supastar7 said:

@SolidGame_basic:

Nintendo refuses to capitalize on Metroid. So I'll give the edge to Sony. They know how to treat their more serious games right.

WTF is this even supposed to mean? They're making fuqing Metroid Prime 4 and Samus Returns was good.

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appariti0n

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#87 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 5013 Posts

I dont even own a switch yet and I voted Nintendo. Way more 1st party games that interest me than Sony.

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nepu7supastar7

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#88 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6773 Posts

@FireEmblem_Man:

Yeah but LOOK at how many Zelda games have been made in the time frame between Samus Returns and Prime 4!!! Look at how many fuckking Mario games were made!! And we're *barely* getting Metroid Prime 4?!! WTF indeed!

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FireEmblem_Man

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#89 FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts
@nepu7supastar7 said:

@FireEmblem_Man:

Yeah but LOOK at how many Zelda games have been made in the time frame between Samus Returns and Prime 4!!! Look at how many fuckking Mario games were made!! And we're *barely* getting Metroid Prime 4?!! WTF indeed!

Because they sell?

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nepu7supastar7

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#90 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6773 Posts

@FireEmblem_Man:

Are you saying Metroid doesn't sell? Because it does!

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DeadMan1290

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#91 DeadMan1290
Member since 2005 • 15752 Posts

No matter what they do, to me, Nintendo will always be better at first party quality of games. Sony's games are great and I love the majority of them, but Nintendo is Nintendo, they deliver 9 times out of 10.

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Coolyfett

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#92 Coolyfett
Member since 2008 • 6276 Posts

PlayStations 1st party titles have grown in popularity over the years. Coolyfett would currently pick the PlayStation games over what Ninitendo is doing right now. Curious what they will do with Uncharted going forward.

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#93 FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts
@nepu7supastar7 said:

@FireEmblem_Man:

Are you saying Metroid doesn't sell? Because it does!

I want a new F-Zero, but you don't seeing bitching and crying about it on the forums.

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MirkoS77

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#94 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17657 Posts

@Jag85:

@MirkoS77: Physics is not a mechanic. BOTW wasn't designed around a mechanic, but was designed to be a throwback to the open-world formula of the original Zelda, and then the mechanics were developed along the way. In other words, your criticism does not apply to BOTW.

Physics encompass mechanics. The core of BotW's gameplay is designed around elemental, physical property-based game logic in combined systemic synergy to afford a large degree of emergent player possibilities.

BotW was built around this rule set from the get-go. BotW's design didn't prioritize its open world roots and then Nintendo brought physics into the picture in secondary consideration to that structure, Nintendo began with physics (the inception of which I suspect more than likely arose with no particular IP in mind), and then leveraged the open-world formula as it was most conducive to elemental interplay. My criticism is fully applicable.

Your argument seems to have more to do with story and setting, rather than gameplay. Sony are good at coming up with "new" IPs, stories or settings (or rather, borrowing them from movies), but they rarely ever innovate when it comes to actual gameplay. They always play it safe with the gameplay.

I am tired of Nintendo's properties, so much so to the extent that I will gladly embrace a developer who provides me with fresh settings, stories, characters, music.....even if they abide more formulaic and superficial aspects in their gameplay. If that's a concession I must make to not have to spend one more second in the goddamn Mushroom Kingdom I'll take it, as my interest is held for only so long with a decades old settings, and any gameplay innovations in that context is heavily marginalized by their over-reliance on it. I've been playing this shit with iterative nuance since I was literally under ten years old.

If you guys continually wish to eat this s**t up as they shovel it out over and over, more power to you. I'm 42, and I'm done, at least with their mainstays. And the pisser is, Nintendo can do both. They could've taken the innovation that underpins BotW's brilliance and created an entirely new property. They don't. Why? Because they're either lazy, or afraid. They don't want to create new assets, or are terrified it's not going to sell a gazillion copies because it's a new IP.

As for Splatoon and ARMS, they're essentially arcade-style games (like those old Sega arcade games), which have a different game design philosophy compared to "AAA" games. Nintendo has shown they can do both very well, an "arcade" philosophy for the likes of Splatoon and ARMS, and a "AAA" philosophy for the likes of BOTW.

And these arcade-style games are the ones that Nintendo (and their fans) are touting as their massive new IPs the likes of Mario, Zelda, Kart, etc, not to mention they have taken YEARS to appear. Arcade experiences are not be given the same credit as the likes of Mario or Zelda. They are fun and fresh, but shallow and forgettable.

Nintendo's AAA philosophy equates to them relying on decades past properties reinvigorated with new gameplay concepts. The latter is more important, but it is (IMO) largely negated by having to reside in universes we've been playing in since we were all children.

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#95 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6773 Posts

@FireEmblem_Man:

There should be. Nothing gets done unless people start asking for it.

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Jag85

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#96  Edited By Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19543 Posts
@MirkoS77 said:

@Jag85:

@MirkoS77: Physics is not a mechanic. BOTW wasn't designed around a mechanic, but was designed to be a throwback to the open-world formula of the original Zelda, and then the mechanics were developed along the way. In other words, your criticism does not apply to BOTW.

Physics encompass mechanics. The core of BotW's gameplay is designed around elemental, physical property-based game logic in combined systemic synergy to afford a large degree of emergent player possibilities.

BotW was built around this rule set from the get-go. BotW's design didn't prioritize its open world roots and then Nintendo brought physics into the picture in secondary consideration to that structure, Nintendo began with physics (the inception of which I suspect more than likely arose with no particular IP in mind), and then leveraged the open-world formula as it was most conducive to elemental interplay. My criticism is fully applicable.

Not true. That's not how the development process went down. There was no physics concept when they first began working on the BOTW project. The original concept was to make an open-world Zelda that offered a similar level of freedom as the original Zelda on the NES, an idea which they previously explored to some extent with A Link Between Worlds on the 3DS. They then designed a 2D prototype for a new Zelda, which looked just like the NES Zelda, and started experimenting with it. And while experimenting, at some point they decided to add physics-based puzzles. And then further expanded the physics possibilities within the 2D prototype, before eventually creating a 3D version and taking it further, leading to BOTW.

In other words, they never began BOTW with the goal of creating a physics-based game. It's the other way around. They started with an open-world formula similar to the original Zelda, expanded and experimented with it, and then eventually made a breakthrough with the physics. In other words, your criticism is not applicable to BOTW.

They could've taken the innovation that underpins BotW's brilliance and created an entirely new property. They don't. Why? Because they're either lazy, or afraid. They don't want to create new assets, or are terrified it's not going to sell a gazillion copies because it's a new IP.

It's neither laziness nor fear. The reason is simple: business. Or more specifically: franchises sell. Most media industries are dominated by franchises, for better or for worse. Nintendo's business model is, likewise, also heavily franchise-driven. And it makes sense, because Nintendo has some of the world's biggest media franchises under its belt. In fact, Pokemon is the biggest media franchise on the planet, and Mario is also one of the top ten biggest media franchises. When Nintendo has huge lucrative franchises like these, it makes no sense to throw it away for the sake of new IPs, when they can just fit their new gameplay concepts into existing IPs. This not only drives game sales, but also drive merchandise sales, which is where the real money at.

On the other hand, Sony is very much the opposite. They come up with new IPs, yet don't come up with new gameplay concepts, instead recycling the same gameplay concepts in new IP packages. Which also makes sense for Sony's business model. Unlike Nintendo's huge franchises, Sony doesn't have any established game franchises that are anywhere near as huge as Nintendo's franchises. And Sony's game franchises don't sell much merchandise either. So instead, they're relying on the "Sony" brand itself, and the third-person cinematic action-adventure formula heavily associated with that brand. This allows Sony to create new IPs, as it's the "Sony" brand that's selling them, but it also means they have to stick to the same third-person cinematic action-adventure formula, as that's what the "Sony" brand is heavily associated with.

Arcade experiences are not be given the same credit as the likes of Mario or Zelda. They are fun and fresh, but shallow and forgettable.

Not true. The average arcade-style game typically has more mechanical gameplay depth than the average "AAA" game. For example, arcade-style games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, Street Fighter, etc. easily beat the crap out of "AAA" games like GTA, Witcher, GOW, etc. when it comes to mechanical gameplay depth.

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#97 Elaisse
Member since 2012 • 647 Posts

The Sony games are all virtually the same game but with different graphics and story.

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#98  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 17657 Posts

@Jag85:

Not true. That's not how the development process went down. There was no physics concept when they first began working on the BOTW project. The original concept was to make an open-world Zelda that offered a similar level of freedom as the original Zelda on the NES, an idea which they previously explored to some extent with A Link Between Worlds on the 3DS. They then designed a 2D prototype for a new Zelda, which looked just like the NES Zelda, and started experimenting with it. And while experimenting, at some point they decided to add physics-based puzzles. And then further expanded the physics possibilities within the 2D prototype, before eventually creating a 3D version and taking it further, leading to BOTW.

In other words, they never began BOTW with the goal of creating a physics-based game. It's the other way around. They started with an open-world formula similar to the original Zelda, expanded and experimented with it, and then eventually made a breakthrough with the physics. In other words, your criticism is not applicable to BOTW.

The entire reason they created a prototype before they even began production was because they weren't creating the world of Hyrule, but instead the gameplay that would dictate it. That they were able to even place the prototype in an already existing franchise to help experiment in its creation and evolution proves my point that they begin with the gameplay idea first. There may not have been a physics concept, but there was a concept. From Miyamoto:

"Whenever I start working on something I always start with creating new gameplay. After that gameplay becomes more concrete, we look at which character is best suited to the gameplay".

Aside, using Zelda as an example against my point is a bit disingenuous, as that's an already established property that's beholden to particular design tenets, but even then, that doesn't mean the gameplay concept didn't take precedence over the context in which it would eventually be placed.

It's neither laziness nor fear. The reason is simple: business. Or more specifically: franchises sell. Most media industries are dominated by franchises, for better or for worse. Nintendo's business model is, likewise, also heavily franchise-driven. And it makes sense, because Nintendo has some of the world's biggest media franchises under its belt. In fact, Pokemon is the biggest media franchise on the planet, and Mario is also one of the top ten biggest media franchises. When Nintendo has huge lucrative franchises like these, it makes no sense to throw it away for the sake of new IPs, when they can just fit their new gameplay concepts into existing IPs. This not only drives game sales, but also drive merchandise sales, which is where the real money at.

I'd be willing to grant more to this point if we didn't have companies like Disney, one that has taken steps throughout the years to vastly broaden their catalog by not only creating new properties, but also one that has taken huge initiative to acquire new studios to assist in this endevour. They are the ones I consider who are running a business dependent on franchises competently and aggressively (love them or hate them for it). Nintendo's done this to an extent, but considering how much bank they have, they could be doing a lot more.

I'm not arguing that Nintendo should be throwing their big franchises away, I'm arguing that they are far too overly-reliant upon them. They are well known to be an exceptionally conservatively run company. That should be factored into critiquing their business and design philosophies, and I believe it is this conservatism that heavily dictates such an adherence to their established properties and not simply by virtue of smart business. Other businesses do what they're doing, and then some.

On the other hand, Sony is very much the opposite. They come up with new IPs, yet don't come up with new gameplay concepts, instead recycling the same gameplay concepts in new IP packages. Which also makes sense for Sony's business model. Unlike Nintendo's huge franchises, Sony doesn't have any established game franchises that are anywhere near as huge as Nintendo's franchises. And Sony's game franchises don't sell much merchandise either. So instead, they're relying on the "Sony" brand itself, along the third-person cinematic action-adventure formula heavily associated with that brand. This allows Sony to create new IPs, as it's the "Sony" brand that's selling them, but it also means they have to stick to the same third-person cinematic action-adventure formula, as that's what the "Sony" brand is heavily associated with.

Don't disagree, and again I prefer Sony's games as I'm fatigued of Nintendo's franchises and their new ones don't do much for me. Gaming's a creative medium as well as an interactive one, and I'll take a tad more shallowness and formulaic structure in my gameplay that offer me new experiences and worlds over decades old IPs dressed up with a new innovation and coat of paint every iteration, but I realize I'm in the minority here.

But I don't agree that all Sony's games are carbon copies as some imply. Yes they are formulaic, but they hold enough gameplay distinction in each to be enjoyable and unique in their own right.

Not true. The average arcade-style game typically has more mechanical gameplay depth than the average "AAA" game. For example, arcade-style games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, Street Fighter, etc. easily beat the crap out of "AAA" games like GTA, Witcher, GOW, etc. when it comes to mechanical gameplay depth.

I'm not speaking strictly on mechanical depth, but of systemic gameplay that is cumulative; systems that take player investment to build upon and evolve through time, such as skills and item procurement (Zelda), world exploration (Mario), and character development (Witcher). Arcade experiences, by their fleeting design, do not allow for this.

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#99 Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19543 Posts
@MirkoS77 said:

@Jag85:

Not true. That's not how the development process went down. There was no physics concept when they first began working on the BOTW project. The original concept was to make an open-world Zelda that offered a similar level of freedom as the original Zelda on the NES, an idea which they previously explored to some extent with A Link Between Worlds on the 3DS. They then designed a 2D prototype for a new Zelda, which looked just like the NES Zelda, and started experimenting with it. And while experimenting, at some point they decided to add physics-based puzzles. And then further expanded the physics possibilities within the 2D prototype, before eventually creating a 3D version and taking it further, leading to BOTW.

In other words, they never began BOTW with the goal of creating a physics-based game. It's the other way around. They started with an open-world formula similar to the original Zelda, expanded and experimented with it, and then eventually made a breakthrough with the physics. In other words, your criticism is not applicable to BOTW.

The entire reason they created a prototype before they even began production was not because they were creating the world of Hyrule. That they were able to even place the prototype in an already existing franchise to help experiment in its creation and evolution proves my point that they begin with the gameplay idea first. There may not have been a physics concept, but there was a concept. From Miyamoto:

"Whenever I start working on something I always start with creating new gameplay. After that gameplay becomes more concrete, we look at which character is best suited to the gameplay".

Aside, using Zelda as an example against my point is a bit disingenuous, as that's an already established property that's beholden to particular design tenets, but even then, that doesn't mean the gameplay concept didn't take precedence over the context in which it would eventually be placed.

Like I said, the basic concept behind BOTW was a throwback to the free-form exploration of the original NES Zelda. The basic concept behind BOTW was a back-to-basics approach. The world of Hyrule in BOTW was essentially a re-imagining of the first Hyrule from the original NES game. There was no clear gameplay mechanic when they first began the BOTW project, other than that it was going to be an open-world game similar to the original NES Zelda. And then the physics and mechanics developed along the way.

As for Miyamoto, he wasn't really involved much in the development of BOTW. While that may very well be Miyamoto's approach to game design, that's not an approach shared by all Nintendo dev teams. For every Splatoon or ARMS that sticks to the Miyamoto game development path, there's going to be a BOTW or Xenoblade that follows a different game development path.

I'd be willing to grant more to this point if we didn't have companies like Disney, one that has taken steps throughout the years to vastly broaden their catalog by not only creating new properties, but also one that has taken huge initiative to acquire new studios to assist in this endevour. They are the ones I consider who are running a business dependent on franchises competently and aggressively (love them or hate them for it). Nintendo's done this to an extent, but considering how much bank they have, they could be doing a lot more.

And yet Disney's core demographic is still the same as it's always been: children. Which also happens to be Nintendo's core demographic. The reason is because merchandise is what generates the most money, and children are the most lucrative audience for merchandise.

Also, Disney has barely been creating new IPs lately. All they've been doing is just buying-out other studios and acquiring their IPs. That's not exactly creating new IPs. If Nintendo had as much cash as Disney, they'd also be buying-out a bunch of studios and IPs.

I'm not speaking strictly on mechanical depth, but of systemic gameplay that is cumulative; systems that take player investment to build upon and evolve through time, such as skills and item procurement (Zelda), world exploration (Mario), and character development (Witcher). Arcade experiences, by their fleeting design, do not allow for this.

Okay, so you mean exploration, story, and RPG elements... which I'm not really a fan of. Story and RPG elements these days have become excuses to justify shallow gameplay mechanics. Which is one reason why I prefer arcade-style games, because their focus lies on the deep gameplay mechanics (and also because I don't really have much time for long-ass RPGs and action-adventures anymore).

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#100 BIOKILLER123
Member since 2010 • 1070 Posts

Nintendo easily.