Microsoft: Why taking away RAM from developers is good for them

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Avatar image for DrTrafalgarLaw
#1 Posted by DrTrafalgarLaw (4487 posts) -

"Xbox One offers a total of eight gigabytes of RAM, a stupendous leap over its predecessor's 512 MB - but around three gigabytes of this is set aside for entertainment apps, system-wide Kinect features and communication tools like Skype, which run in parallel to games. Naturally, this has provoked a certain amount of upset among those who'd rather each and every byte of memory was set aside for the sole, exclusive purpose of (e.g.) rendering every fold in Batman's cape.

According to Xbox's director of development Boyd Multerer, however, that kind of all-or-nothing thinking simply isn't reflective of the myriad functionality players now expect of their consoles. Xbox One's operating system setup, he argued, is an attempt to reconcile this hunger for supposedly "peripheral" features with the stability developers require of console hardware. Speaking to us shortly before the console's reveal, Multerer explained Microsoft's thinking in greater depth: how it built Xbox One to have both a fixed games platform for developers to target, and something more flexible for rapidly-changing apps of the moment - rather than trying to cram the latter into the former, as with Xbox 360's unloved Twitter app.

Xbox 360 already divides its memory allowance, in order to run the dashboard Guide on top of games, but there's now much more pressure to save RAM for so-called "broader entertainment" and networking features. "

"You start thinking of it like "ah, okay, the game developer could really focus on the 3D world, focus on the art and the money they put into it, have this look beautiful," mused Multerer, "While working with a set of apps over here that allows us to have different surfaces, hook into social systems, to add value beyond the 3D world of the game, flip back and forth quickly between them.

"And you end up with a vibrant, changing world that can handle the innovation and the pace of change over on the internet, all the start-ups, that sort of stuff - but can still work with the games, that need the predictability, that need the optimization, that need to make sure they're spending their money on the right things."


TL;DR : We need more RAM for a bloated OS and apps, fvck games!apps = innovation

Avatar image for legalize82
#2 Posted by legalize82 (2293 posts) -
apps will sell consoles didnt you know ? facebook and skype needs to be streamlined
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#3 Posted by Blabadon (33030 posts) -
Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.
Avatar image for legalize82
#4 Posted by legalize82 (2293 posts) -
[QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.

GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less
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#5 Posted by tagyhag (15869 posts) -
Consoles are sounding dumber and dumber, I just want to play the damn games.
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#6 Posted by DrTrafalgarLaw (4487 posts) -
[QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.

3 GB for win8 OS is smaller than 2 GB for OS? :?
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#7 Posted by charizard1605 (81275 posts) -
Remember when cows used to love the arguments for split RAM, back when Sony did it with the PS3?
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#8 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -
TLHBO as usual /thread
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#9 Posted by DrTrafalgarLaw (4487 posts) -
Consoles are sounding dumber and dumber, I just want to play the damn games.tagyhag
Next-gen, they probably won't be called consoles but entertainment boxes...oh wait...
Avatar image for legalize82
#10 Posted by legalize82 (2293 posts) -
Remember when cows used to love the arguments for split RAM, back when Sony did it with the PS3?charizard1605
bbbut the past
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#11 Posted by DrTrafalgarLaw (4487 posts) -
Remember when cows used to love the arguments for split RAM, back when Sony did it with the PS3?charizard1605
Can't remember, try again.
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#12 Posted by superclocked (5864 posts) -
[QUOTE="legalize82"][QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.

GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less

eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P
Avatar image for Obviously_Right
#13 Posted by Obviously_Right (5331 posts) -

[QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.DrTrafalgarLaw
3 GB for win8 OS is smaller than 2 GB for OS? :?

He's a genius!

Avatar image for Cali3350
#14 Posted by Cali3350 (16134 posts) -

That actually sounds totally reasonable for me.

 

Hes saying just make everything laid out with all peripherals like Kinect and all System resources, so no matter what the user is doing you know exactly what you have.

 

I see no issue at all.  Its really the same thing consoles have done since the beginning of time, he just worded it differently.  

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#15 Posted by Zaibach (13466 posts) -

Zaibach: Why beating my wife is good for her

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#16 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -
Remember when cows used to love the arguments for split RAM, back when Sony did it with the PS3?charizard1605
Remember Wii U? Yeah, no sheep should be crying about another console with the crap ninty has done.
Avatar image for DrTrafalgarLaw
#17 Posted by DrTrafalgarLaw (4487 posts) -
[QUOTE="superclocked"][QUOTE="legalize82"][QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.

GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less

eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P

Microsoft is just putting on a strap-on for a dick-waiving contest...sure you can get them in very large sizes but you won't impress anyone.
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#18 Posted by SambaLele (5552 posts) -

that's all we, gamers, wanted.

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#19 Posted by xboxiphoneps3 (2996 posts) -

[QUOTE="legalize82"][QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.superclocked
GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less

eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P

No, all that stuff is simply just to try and close the gap between it and GDDR5...plus some bandwidth from that is going to Kinect 2.0...its quite terrible how more then half the system bandwidth is locked up in a small measle 32 mb of data...as opposed to the 8 gigs of full 176 gb/s ram

 

The memory setup in the xb1 is inferior to the memory setup in ps4 in just about every way. 

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#20 Posted by charizard1605 (81275 posts) -
[QUOTE="charizard1605"]Remember when cows used to love the arguments for split RAM, back when Sony did it with the PS3?Suppaman100
Remember Wii U? Yeah, no sheep should be crying about another console with the crap ninty has done.

Again with the Wii U :D Why bring the Wii U up here when it has nothing to do with the discussion? FYI, the Wii U also, unfortunately, has a split pool of RAM, like PS4 and Xbox One :(
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#21 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -
[QUOTE="superclocked"][QUOTE="legalize82"][QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.

GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less

eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P

Don't forget THA CLOUDDDD ! :P :lol: :lol: stupid lemmingz
Avatar image for GravityX
#22 Posted by GravityX (865 posts) -

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

Avatar image for legalize82
#23 Posted by legalize82 (2293 posts) -

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

GravityX
no it's NSA plan
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#24 Posted by SambaLele (5552 posts) -

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

GravityX

 

So, from a MS statement about their own product you get a conclusion about the competition's plans. Great reasoning, you're a very logical person!

Avatar image for GravityX
#25 Posted by GravityX (865 posts) -

[QUOTE="GravityX"]

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

legalize82

no it's NSA plan

Don't worry they already no everything about you and your stash.

Avatar image for MightyMuna
#26 Posted by MightyMuna (1764 posts) -
Still don't understand why people are so hung on specs, more so, specs they don't truly understand how it works. Seems like penile measuring contest.
Avatar image for Suppaman100
#27 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

GravityX
:lol: love it when some forum clown makes a post like this. Sony's engineers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....>>>>>>> you. Have fun with your casual, weaker, no privacy xBONE though.
Avatar image for DrTrafalgarLaw
#28 Posted by DrTrafalgarLaw (4487 posts) -

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

GravityX

fixed allocation of inferior ddr3 ram vs. dynamic allocation of superior gddr5 ram

Think for a second. :?

Avatar image for legalize82
#29 Posted by legalize82 (2293 posts) -
[QUOTE="GravityX"]

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

Suppaman100
:lol: love it when some forum clown makes a post like this. Sony's engineers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....>>>>>>> you. Have fun with your casual, weaker, no privacy xBONE though.

bonaire gamers
Avatar image for superclocked
#30 Posted by superclocked (5864 posts) -
[QUOTE="Suppaman100"][QUOTE="superclocked"][QUOTE="legalize82"] GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less

eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P

Don't forget THA CLOUDDDD ! :P :lol: :lol: stupid lemmingz

:| I'm not a Lemming. And the cloud will be used to add advanced, dynamic AI to XB1 games at the beginning of this generation...
Avatar image for GravityX
#31 Posted by GravityX (865 posts) -

[QUOTE="GravityX"]

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

SambaLele

 

So, from a MS statement about their own product you get a conclusion about the competition's plans. Great reasoning, you're a very logical person!

Well, MS did come out from the beginning and lay out their plan for RAM usage. While Sony on the other hand seems to still be figuring it out. First it was 7, than 4.5, than 5.5, than 5 and now I think were back to 6. And SW dictates I take a jab at Sony.

Avatar image for DrTrafalgarLaw
#32 Posted by DrTrafalgarLaw (4487 posts) -
[QUOTE="Suppaman100"][QUOTE="GravityX"]

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

legalize82
:lol: love it when some forum clown makes a post like this. Sony's engineers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....>>>>>>> you. Have fun with your casual, weaker, no privacy xBONE though.

bonaire gamers

They smoke a lot of weed there and lazy 9 to 1 work hours...and slack off the rest of the day...how fitting.
Avatar image for MightyMuna
#33 Posted by MightyMuna (1764 posts) -

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

GravityX
You're very accurate. MS always wanted 8GB RAM, just that at the time, only DDR3 was available , so they went with but due to its weak bandwidth they try to offset it with 32MB eSRAM. Sony on the other hand went for 4GB GDDR5, but they were so lucky that just about when they were about to finalise, 8GB GDDR5 became available, so they opted for it. More so, it didn't affect the hardware design/architecture
Avatar image for fyron256
#34 Posted by fyron256 (140 posts) -
[QUOTE="superclocked"][QUOTE="legalize82"][QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.

GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less

eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P

Doesn't the XBox One also offer PRT via Direct X 11.2 . I thought I read somewhere this was exclusive to PC and XBox One. Then again I also read that the PS4 is also capable but that it wouldn't be a direct 1:1 application since they use GL. So there might be slight difference because of it. In any event didn't people also dismiss the EDRAM in the 360 and that turned out pretty good. Looks like history is repeating itself with the ESRAM. I'm not denying the PS4 is powerful I'm just saying based on how capable the 360 was with EDRAM I'm willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt until I see pics that drastically say otherwise.
Avatar image for GravityX
#35 Posted by GravityX (865 posts) -

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"][QUOTE="GravityX"]

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

legalize82

:lol: love it when some forum clown makes a post like this. Sony's engineers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....>>>>>>> you. Have fun with your casual, weaker, no privacy xBONE though.

bonaire gamers

:lol:

MS engineers>>>>>>Sony engineers. And you have fun with your PS360.

Avatar image for Suppaman100
#36 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -
[QUOTE="Suppaman100"][QUOTE="superclocked"]eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :Psuperclocked
Don't forget THA CLOUDDDD ! :P :lol: :lol: stupid lemmingz

:| I'm not a Lemming. And the cloud will be used to add advanced, dynamic AI to XB1 games at the beginning of this generation...

Wasn't referring to you though... but after reading what you just now posted... :lol: "add advanced, dynamic AI..." :lol: The cloud is a BS sales talk nothing more.
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#37 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -

[QUOTE="legalize82"][QUOTE="Suppaman100"] :lol: love it when some forum clown makes a post like this. Sony's engineers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....>>>>>>> you. Have fun with your casual, weaker, no privacy xBONE though.GravityX

bonaire gamers

:lol:

MS engineers>>>>>>Sony engineers. And you have fun with your PS360.

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#38 Posted by super600 (32334 posts) -

Who cares. Both consoles have enough ram to run beautiful looking next gen games.

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#39 Posted by SambaLele (5552 posts) -

[QUOTE="SambaLele"]

[QUOTE="GravityX"]

In other words. MS had a plan from the beginning. And intelligently allocated RAM for the OS and other applications from the get go. While Sony is trying to figure it out as they go. Cool.

GravityX

 

So, from a MS statement about their own product you get a conclusion about the competition's plans. Great reasoning, you're a very logical person!

Well, MS did come out from the beginning and lay out their plan for RAM usage. While Sony on the other hand seems to still be figuring it out. First it was 7, than 4.5, than 5.5, than 5 and now I think were back to 6. And SW dictates I take a jab at Sony.

Wow, I must admit I'm surprised to see that kind of argument being made in MS' favour.

Do people forget this quickly about things? Can't you see how that can be used against MS' "coming clear and laying out their plan" with all the X1 policies and Kinect fiasco?

Their official excuse for that was exactly that they failed to lay out how it would work, what it really was, etc.

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#40 Posted by RR360DD (13588 posts) -
So many innovations from Microsoft :cool: This divided RAM creates a fantastic environment for devs who think outside the box
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#41 Posted by xboxiphoneps3 (2996 posts) -

[QUOTE="superclocked"][QUOTE="legalize82"] GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 lessfyron256
eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P

Doesn't the XBox One also offer PRT via Direct X 11.2 . I thought I read somewhere this was exclusive to PC and XBox One. Then again I also read that the PS4 is also capable but that it wouldn't be a direct 1:1 application since they use GL. So there might be slight difference because of it. In any event didn't people also dismiss the EDRAM in the 360 and that turned out pretty good. Looks like history is repeating itself with the ESRAM. I'm not denying the PS4 is powerful I'm just saying based on how capable the 360 was with EDRAM I'm willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt until I see pics that drastically say otherwise.

eSRAM is totally different then eDRAM and the eDRAM in the Xbox 360 provided more bandwidth then the eSRAM in the Xbox One. Also PRT isnt a DirectX exclusive feature and all AMD GCN gpu's can do PRT, including PS4 gpu

 

Its called AMD PRT

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#42 Posted by dramaybaz (6020 posts) -
As said in the PS4 RAM thread:

it's actually smart if Sony doesn't give all the ram away to developers right away.

Davekeeh
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#43 Posted by ronvalencia (23670 posts) -

[QUOTE="legalize82"][QUOTE="Blabadon"]Still a smaller OS than the PS4's lame-looking one. Neither should be this big, it's ridiculous.superclocked
GDDR5>>>>>>>>>>>> ddr3 sony does everything better for 100 less

eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :P

When memory issues are reduced for both camps, GCN with 18 CUs > GCN with 12 CUs.

It's basically like W5000(down clocked to @800Mhz, 12 CUs) vs "7860" (18 CUs @ 800Mhz).

Both GPUs has the same triangles per cycle rate i.e. 1.6 billion triangles per second @ 800Mhz.

Both CPUs has the same 6 core Jaguar for games.

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#44 Posted by ronvalencia (23670 posts) -

[QUOTE="fyron256"][QUOTE="superclocked"]eSRAM + Move Engines + Tiling Hardware + LZ Compression hardware + DDR3 > GDDR5 :Pxboxiphoneps3

Doesn't the XBox One also offer PRT via Direct X 11.2 . I thought I read somewhere this was exclusive to PC and XBox One. Then again I also read that the PS4 is also capable but that it wouldn't be a direct 1:1 application since they use GL. So there might be slight difference because of it. In any event didn't people also dismiss the EDRAM in the 360 and that turned out pretty good. Looks like history is repeating itself with the ESRAM. I'm not denying the PS4 is powerful I'm just saying based on how capable the 360 was with EDRAM I'm willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt until I see pics that drastically say otherwise.

eSRAM is totally different then eDRAM and the eDRAM in the Xbox 360 provided more bandwidth then the eSRAM in the Xbox One. Also PRT isnt a DirectX exclusive feature and all AMD GCN gpu's can do PRT, including PS4 gpu

 

Its called AMD PRT

AMD PRT doesn't change the potential of the GPU i.e. it mitigates the memory bandwidth and local video storage issues for new 3D engines.
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#45 Posted by xhawk27 (9591 posts) -

Sony is using 2.5 - 3gb ram for the OS. 

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#47 Posted by Chutebox (42449 posts) -

Sony is using 2.5 - 3gb ram for the OS. 

xhawk27
Any link that isn't a rumor?
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#48 Posted by Tessellation (8963 posts) -
dat 3.0GB reserved for the PS4 OS still hurting :cool: #STAYMAD
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#49 Posted by TheRealBigRich (784 posts) -

 I know People are saying they just want to play games and I know Im going to be called a lemming but what me play my xbox over my ps3 was just a better ui experience. I actually hope that the ps4 does the 6-2 since that sounds like it gives a nice amount for the games and some for whatever might come in the future. people think the world  will be the same as it is today for the next 5-10 years. The fact is world is always changing and I know sony want to be able to include things that they cant predict in the future like they could not predict cross chat.

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#50 Posted by Douevenlift_bro (6755 posts) -

TLHBO :lol:

 

look at all the DC :lol: