Mark Hargett (Former PS5 Principal Software Engineer) on Variable Clocks

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Juub1990

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#1 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 9904 Posts

Basically saying it's a 9.2 TFLOPs console and Cerny lied to us about it being dependent on a power envelope.

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Subspecies

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#2 Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

More PS5 obsessiveness.

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Pedro

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#3  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

But but buh its always running at max clocks....🤣

Teh boost.

The poster above me is dying on the inside. 😎

EDIT: PS5 holding gaming back...

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Subspecies

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#4  Edited By Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

@Pedro: I'm... dying on the inside? Why?

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FinalFighters

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#5  Edited By FinalFighters
Member since 2013 • 3366 Posts

Ok why do people keep mentioning 9.2TF on the PS5?? i checked and no article states that so Where is this coming from?

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Juub1990

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#6 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 9904 Posts
@FinalFighters said:

Ok why do people keep mentioning 9.2TF on the PS5?? i checked and no article states that so Where is this coming from?

Old github leaks that tested a 36 CU's chip at 2GHz that was purported to be the PS5's GPU.

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DaVillain-

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#7 DaVillain-  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 42520 Posts

@FinalFighters said:

Ok why do people keep mentioning 9.2TF on the PS5?? i checked and no article states that so Where is this coming from?

mark said 10 so why would he lie

TC is targeting (who shall not be named) a certain user on why he mentions 9.2TF lol.

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Pedro

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#8 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@subspecies said:

@Pedro: I'm... dying on the inside? Why?

Its OK. Don't let threads like this make you upset. 😎

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Subspecies

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#9 Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

@Pedro: Huh? What are you talking about?

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Pedro

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#10 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@subspecies said:

@Pedro: Huh? What are you talking about?

😎

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FinalFighters

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#11 FinalFighters
Member since 2013 • 3366 Posts

@Juub1990 said:
@FinalFighters said:

Ok why do people keep mentioning 9.2TF on the PS5?? i checked and no article states that so Where is this coming from?

Old github leaks that tested a 36 CU's chip at 2GHz that was purported to be the PS5's GPU.

ok im reading it now..interesting.

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Subspecies

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#12 Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

@Pedro: Can't answer. Gotcha.

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FinalFighters

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#13 FinalFighters
Member since 2013 • 3366 Posts

@davillain-: lol i see

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hardwenzen

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#14 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 1713 Posts

My future PS5 seems to be extremely underwhelming, and Tormy is the one to blame. I believed him when he said the PS5 was so close to the XSX that i wouldn't even be able to tell the difference. This right there confirms that he is working for Sony, and tries to sell us his underpowered system with very poor heat management.

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Pedro

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#15 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@subspecies said:

@Pedro: Can't answer. Gotcha.

You are getting upset again.

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Subspecies

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#16  Edited By Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

@Pedro: Can't reply until I call you out on not being able to reply. Gotcha.

I command, you obey, I see. Here's another command: reply to this post.

Or, don't reply, showing that you know your position.

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Pedro

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#17 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@subspecies said:

@Pedro: Can't reply until I call you out on not being able to reply. Gotcha.

I command, you obey, I see. Here's another command: reply to this post.

Or, don't reply, showing that you know your position.

You are getting more upset. First you were upset by thread and now you are upset because I didn't point out why you were upset. 😂

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TheGrat1

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#18 TheGrat1
Member since 2008 • 4298 Posts

Glad to see people not understanding what he said.

He is saying that the PS5's solution is "a different animal" because its power draw, and therefore expected heat generation, is predictable.

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Subspecies

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#19 Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

@TheGrat1: Yeah but SW gotta SW, ya know.

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Juub1990

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#20 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 9904 Posts
@TheGrat1 said:

Glad to see people not understanding what he said.

He is saying that the PS5's solution is "a different animal" because its power draw, and therefore expected heat generation, is predictable.

No. He's saying traditional variable clocks based on temps are unpredictable due to factors like local weather. Then goes on to say that being able to predict clocks based on max power draw is a different animal.

Basically saying the PS5's clocks are contingent on predicting the power draw which is different than prediction based on temps which is influenced by factors such as room temps.

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Zero_epyon

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#21 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 14400 Posts

@Juub1990 said:
@TheGrat1 said:

Glad to see people not understanding what he said.

He is saying that the PS5's solution is "a different animal" because its power draw, and therefore expected heat generation, is predictable.

No. He's saying traditional variable clocks based on temps are unpredictable due to factors like local weather. Then goes on to say that being able to predict clocks based on max power draw is a different animal.

Basically saying the PS5's clocks are contingent on predicting the power draw which is different than prediction based on temps which is influenced by factors such as room temps.

Didn't we know this already though? That sounds consistent with Cerney's presentation if I'm not mistaken.

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Juub1990

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#22 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 9904 Posts
@Zero_epyon said:

Didn't we know this already though? That sounds consistent with Cerney's presentation if I'm not mistaken.

Yes. It's the same thing but bastardized and poorly worded.

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tdkmillsy

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#23  Edited By tdkmillsy
Member since 2003 • 3405 Posts

While it would be good jump on the bashing bandwagon, is he really saying the PS5 will throttle on temp which goes against what Mr Sony said?

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Zero_epyon

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#24 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 14400 Posts

@tdkmillsy said:

While it would be good jump on the bashing bandwagon, is he really saying the PS5 will throttle on temp which goes against what Mr Sony said?

No. He's confirming it.

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Pedro

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#25 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@tdkmillsy said:

While it would be good jump on the bashing bandwagon, is he really saying the PS5 will throttle on temp which goes against what Mr Sony said?

It throttles based on power draw. That is what has been explained due to the limited power budget. If the GPU needs more power, it would throttle the CPU and vice versa. Power draw is more predictable than temperature.

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tdkmillsy

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#26 tdkmillsy
Member since 2003 • 3405 Posts

@Pedro said:
@tdkmillsy said:

While it would be good jump on the bashing bandwagon, is he really saying the PS5 will throttle on temp which goes against what Mr Sony said?

It throttles based on power draw. That is what has been explained due to the limited power budget. If the GPU needs more power, it would throttle the CPU and vice versa. Power draw is more predictable than temperature.

and it does this because if it doesn't heat will become a problem yet?

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Juub1990

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#27 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 9904 Posts
@tdkmillsy said:

and it does this because if it doesn't heat will become a problem yet?

No because you can't deliver 500W to a console no matter what you do. Basing the clocks on temps would be problematic because as he said, temps are influenced by external and unpredictable variables such as weather. So they based them on power draw.

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Subspecies

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#28  Edited By Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

I thought some were arguing that Mr. Cerny lied? So now he didn't lie?

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Pedro

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#29 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@Juub1990 said:
@tdkmillsy said:

and it does this because if it doesn't heat will become a problem yet?

No because you can't deliver 500W to a console no matter what you do. Basing the clocks on temps would be problematic because as he said, temps are influenced by external and unpredictable variables such as weather. So they based them on power draw.

In addition to this, the cooling system can be design to handle a specific amount of heat based on the power draw which "eliminates" the concern of overheating excluding external factors. (Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken)

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Juub1990

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#30 Juub1990
Member since 2013 • 9904 Posts
@Pedro said:

In addition to this, the cooling system can be design to handle a specific amount of heat based on the power draw which "eliminates" the concern of overheating excluding external factors. (Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken)

Pretty much.

There's a lot of confusion but the whole thing is clear to me lol.

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#31  Edited By ttboy
Member since 2003 • 547 Posts

@Juub1990:

@Pedro said:
@Juub1990 said:
@tdkmillsy said:

and it does this because if it doesn't heat will become a problem yet?

No because you can't deliver 500W to a console no matter what you do. Basing the clocks on temps would be problematic because as he said, temps are influenced by external and unpredictable variables such as weather. So they based them on power draw.

In addition to this, the cooling system can be design to handle a specific amount of heat based on the power draw which "eliminates" the concern of overheating excluding external factors. (Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken)

At the end of the day it's all based on Temp. This would be the first variable clocked system (any electronic device) ever built that doesn't need to throttle based on Temp. What he is saying is that in this situation it is really difficult to optimize code for.

Microsoft's system can't escape temps either but what they've done is fix the GPU/CPU clock. I would imagine that if the Temp is too high in that environment it will just stop both CPU and GPU to protect damaging the device. Many fixed systems have to do that.

Cerny isn't being 100% honest unless he can escape thermal dynamics.

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Zero_epyon

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#32 Zero_epyon
Member since 2004 • 14400 Posts

@ttboy said:

@Juub1990:

@Pedro said:
@Juub1990 said:
@tdkmillsy said:

and it does this because if it doesn't heat will become a problem yet?

No because you can't deliver 500W to a console no matter what you do. Basing the clocks on temps would be problematic because as he said, temps are influenced by external and unpredictable variables such as weather. So they based them on power draw.

In addition to this, the cooling system can be design to handle a specific amount of heat based on the power draw which "eliminates" the concern of overheating excluding external factors. (Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken)

At the end of the day it's all based on Temp. This would be the first variable clocked system (any electronic device) ever built that doesn't need to throttle based on Temp. What he is saying is that in this situation it is really difficult to optimize code for.

Microsoft's system can't escape temps either but what they've done is fix the GPU/CPU clock. I would imagine that if the Temp is too high in that environment it will just stop both CPU and GPU to protect damaging the device. Many fixed systems have to do that.

Cerny isn't being 100% honest unless he can escape thermal dynamics.

I'm sure the PS5 will have similar mechanisms in case you want to play your PS5 in an oven lol. But seriously, the point is that the game will run the same regardless of how hot the PS5 gets and the cooling system will be able to handle heat independently from what's going on on screen. That's why the PS5 is so massive.

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Pedro

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#33 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@ttboy said:

At the end of the day it's all based on Temp. This would be the first variable clocked system (any electronic device) ever built that doesn't need to throttle based on Temp. What he is saying is that in this situation it is really difficult to optimize code for.

Microsoft's system can't escape temps either but what they've done is fix the GPU/CPU clock. I would imagine that if the Temp is too high in that environment it will just stop both CPU and GPU to protect damaging the device. Many fixed systems have to do that.

Cerny isn't being 100% honest unless he can escape thermal dynamics.

The Dell G5 SE uses AMD SmartShift.

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Tessellation

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#34 Tessellation
Member since 2009 • 9123 Posts

LMAO LGBTstation 5 news get worse everyday 🤣, the 9 TFLOPs console is a joke

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#35 WeRVenom
Member since 2020 • 479 Posts

According to Cerny and DF it's almost always as at max clocks. Your more likely to see a downclock to CPU. 3.2 from 3.5 will give you about all you need.

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#36 Random_Matt
Member since 2013 • 5135 Posts

Don't know man, PS5 solution may be preferable to be honest. Fixed clocks are problematic with variable heat, hope Xbox doesn't throttle or shut down. I'm currently within an episode of hot weather, sling on ten degrees to the CPU. My PC easily handles it, but you should get the point.

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Pedro

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#37 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

@Random_Matt said:

Don't know man, PS5 solution may be preferable to be honest. Fixed clocks are problematic with variable heat, hope Xbox doesn't throttle or shut down. I'm currently within an episode of hot weather, sling on ten degrees to the CPU. My PC easily handles it, but you should get the point.

The PS5 throttle because of power and not because of temperature. I anticipate both systems would have some mechanism to shut the system down when temperatures hit a certain threshold like all or most electronics.

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I_P_Daily

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#38 I_P_Daily
Member since 2015 • 16799 Posts

So the PooS5 is gonna melt in Australia lol.

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ermacness

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#39 ermacness
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@Tessellation said:

LMAO LGBTstation 5 news get worse everyday 🤣, the 9 TFLOPs console is a joke

Yet it somehow gets the most hype. How does that works?

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hardwenzen

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#40 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 1713 Posts

@Tessellation said:

LMAO LGBTstation 5 news get worse everyday 🤣, the 9 TFLOPs console is a joke

Its 9.2tflops, not 9. Please get your facts straight.

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BlackShirt20

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#41 BlackShirt20
Member since 2005 • 1709 Posts

It’s a poorly optimized machine.

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Pedro

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#42 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 40097 Posts

There is no concrete evidence that the PS5 GPU downgrades to 9.2 TFLOPS. This will remain a baseless rumor until proven otherwise. The only thing that is a fact is that the 10.28 TFLOPS is not sustained.

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BlackShirt20

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#43 BlackShirt20
Member since 2005 • 1709 Posts

@Pedro: the CPU can’t sustain 3.5 either.

It’s clear why they never discuss actual performance. It’s clear why Sony said a lot of their games are targeting 30FPS. It’s clear why they only want to focus on a loading drive.

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#44 Greygoose12
Member since 2020 • 54 Posts

Well there is no concrete evidence the Ps5 gpu is 9.2 tf its pretty reasonable if it wasn't so overclocked thats what the base tf would be. Add the github leak that the ps5 has the oberion chip which is 9.2 tf before the Ps5 was released and makes even more sense.

I think Sony was originally going to have a 9.2 gpu running at 2.0 GHz but upped it last minute because the underestimated the 12.1 tf Series x was putting out. They upped the clocks to get a double digit tf number. I think they had to redesign the cooling system to accommodate. I believe this raised the cost of the ps5 production. It would have been cheaper to just up the gpu but it was to far along in the process.

Its all speculation. The real question is will a higher OC and a weaker gpu effect fps and res. Most of Sony's games at the reveal were running at 30 fps. Phil has already said you will see a difference of the Series x power during the July reveal in fps. At the Microsoft reveal if most games run at 60fps /4k vs just a few a the Sony reveal it will be a big selling point for the Series x. We will have to see.

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#45 xantufrog  Moderator
Member since 2013 • 13041 Posts

@greygoose12: that's exactly what I think too

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#46 Martin_G_N
Member since 2006 • 1997 Posts

And still, the rumored cheaper Xbox Lockhart at 4Tflops will hold the XsX and PS5 back.

The PS5's variable frequency is not just about the heat. Looking at the size of the PS5 it won't have any problems running both the CPU and the GPU at high clock speeds. But having a silent console when running Netflix and smaller games is welcome.

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#47 ttboy
Member since 2003 • 547 Posts

@Pedro said:
@ttboy said:

At the end of the day it's all based on Temp. This would be the first variable clocked system (any electronic device) ever built that doesn't need to throttle based on Temp. What he is saying is that in this situation it is really difficult to optimize code for.

Microsoft's system can't escape temps either but what they've done is fix the GPU/CPU clock. I would imagine that if the Temp is too high in that environment it will just stop both CPU and GPU to protect damaging the device. Many fixed systems have to do that.

Cerny isn't being 100% honest unless he can escape thermal dynamics.

The Dell G5 SE uses AMD SmartShift.

It still will get hot. Basically there is no free lunch. Max boost clocks, no appreciable heat, sustained at all times is not possible in this world. This laptop that uses Smart Shift/Game Shift achieved 10 -15% CPU and 5-10% gaming performance increase at the cost of Max fans at all times.

https://hothardware.com/reviews/dell-g5-15-se-review?page=4

That only improved when we turned on Dell Game Shift. The system performed CPU-focused tests on average 10 to 15% faster than when the setting was off. Gaming tests universally showed improvement, but it wasn't quite as pronounced. Still, a free performance boost of 5 - 10% or so is very welcome. The cost to Game Shift is added noise and heat generated. The fans hit 100% and stay there with Game Shift enabled, and the system does get fairly loud. Gamers who play with headphones on aren't going to notice, but they could certainly notice the extra boost in frames per second in more challenging titles.

https://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/dell-g5-15-se-2020

On our casual heat test, the underside of the Dell G5 15 SE measured 106 degrees Fahrenheit, which is a little higher than our 95-degree comfort threshold, but thanks to the plastic, it only ever felt warm. The center of the keyboard and touchpad hit 100 and 82 degrees, respectively. The hottest the machine got was 110 degrees on the bottom left of the screen’s bezels.

I played Assassin’s Creed Odyssey for 15 minutes and the machine never felt hot thanks to the fans going full blast.

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#48  Edited By ttboy
Member since 2003 • 547 Posts

Also a review on the only Laptop to have AMD Smartshift Tech. Pay attention to the Benchmarks/Temp with Smart Shift on and off... Basically marginal increase in performance...

Loading Video...

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#49 ttboy
Member since 2003 • 547 Posts
@Zero_epyon said:
@ttboy said:

@Juub1990:

@Pedro said:
@Juub1990 said:
@tdkmillsy said:

and it does this because if it doesn't heat will become a problem yet?

No because you can't deliver 500W to a console no matter what you do. Basing the clocks on temps would be problematic because as he said, temps are influenced by external and unpredictable variables such as weather. So they based them on power draw.

In addition to this, the cooling system can be design to handle a specific amount of heat based on the power draw which "eliminates" the concern of overheating excluding external factors. (Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken)

At the end of the day it's all based on Temp. This would be the first variable clocked system (any electronic device) ever built that doesn't need to throttle based on Temp. What he is saying is that in this situation it is really difficult to optimize code for.

Microsoft's system can't escape temps either but what they've done is fix the GPU/CPU clock. I would imagine that if the Temp is too high in that environment it will just stop both CPU and GPU to protect damaging the device. Many fixed systems have to do that.

Cerny isn't being 100% honest unless he can escape thermal dynamics.

I'm sure the PS5 will have similar mechanisms in case you want to play your PS5 in an oven lol. But seriously, the point is that the game will run the same regardless of how hot the PS5 gets and the cooling system will be able to handle heat independently from what's going on on screen. That's why the PS5 is so massive.

In engineering its really really hard to test for all scenarios. There are too many vulnerabilities including code not yet written that will push your system to the max. Basically you just build in a fail safe shutdown. No cooling can save you.

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Subspecies

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#50 Subspecies
Member since 2018 • 2396 Posts

@Martin_G_N said:

And still, the rumored cheaper Xbox Lockhart at 4Tflops will hold the XsX and PS5 back.

This is such a hard pill for some to swallow, lol. MS is basically trolling lems.