Lockhart could make the difference for Microsoft next-gen with the right pricing.

I think Microsoft's next-gen strategy is potentially brilliant.

You have two next-gen SKUs from Microsoft basically targeted at two levels of performance, 1080p displays (Lockhart) and 4K Displays (Anaconda).

The reality is the vast majority of households still have 1080p displays, so why not take advantage of this fact by offering a cheaper 1080p solution that is still a true next-gen leap over previous consoles.

A next-gen console with a 6+ Tflop GPU and Zen 2 CPU that targets 1080p displays would blow away the Xbox One X. Microsoft should be able to get said console down in the $349,99 range which could potentially give them a pretty big advantage going into Next-Gen.

Now I still don't think this alone is enough for Microsoft to outsell PS5 WW, but it puts them in a much better position going into next-gen.

I myself prefer Sony consoles and that really comes down to Sony exclusives. With all these new studio acquisitions by Microsoft hopefully they can improve their 1st party output come next-gen. With better pricing and more exclusives Microsoft is poised to have better success next-generation.

The lower tier is rumoured to be 4TF, a piece of shit basically. Maybe will use the cloud to make up the difference.

@Random_Matt: Might be enough for 1080p/30fps/low-medium settings.

So a piece of shit then?

My brain automatically pictured

https://images.app.goo.gl/hqcCZXLThphan3eG8

Even at 4TF that would still outperform the XB1X since Lockhart will target 1080p instead of 4K. I personally don't think it will be 4TFs though.

It would literally be a difference of resolution. We expect next-gen consoles that target 4K to be in the 10 - 12 tflop range. For 1080p 4 - 6 Tflops is perfectly acceptable.

Both consoles from Microsoft will have the same exact CPU.

Targeting an increasingly extinct television standard is a bad strategy. It’s getting harder and harder to find 1080p TVs, and the price of 4K tvs these days are cheaper than TVs have ever been.

Dumb idea TC

There are still lots of people who have yet to upgrade. Just because 4K exists doesn't mean all those millions of 1080p displays suddenly stopped working.

Majority of households still own 1080p displays. 4K adoption is at about 30 - 35% currently.

Lastly, 1080p still looks nice on those new 4K displays and I think for a lot of people the lower price will be very tempting even if they own a 4K display. Not everyone with a 4K TV will be willing to spend $500 for a console.

Lol I guess you could call it that. If it's like 200$ that would be a pretty interesting price. Many are still stuck with 1080p TV's and don't mind 30fps.

@emgesp:

1 - The best way to get people to adopt new TV tech is to push a product that will sell the new TV tech. (See PS3 Blu-ray player)

2 - Lots of houses still own CRT TVs. Why stop at 1080p TVs?

3 - The price difference will not be bigger than $200. Most people don’t wanna spend $350 on something that looks pretty damn close to what $350 will get them now. Consumers that don’t adopt the premium product early on will either wait for the premium product price to come down, or they will skip the product line altogether.

You’re overestimating the impact of a couple hundred dollars. The confusion the multiple sku strategy will cause will outweigh the impact of people the cheap sku will be aimed at. Microsoft is better off shipping a $200 streaming only box when the tech is ready. Splitting the product line based solely on output resolution is dumb.

I really don't understand why they would release two models unless they're both much better than the Xbox One X. It would otherwise offers very little incentive.

A next generation console at lets say $300 better feel like a next generation console and I find it hard to pull that off when it's an iterative version and has to out do the Xbox One X.

They're honestly better off just rebranding the Xbox One X as a lower tier model and calling it a day.

-----

OR

They create two high end tiers. One model at $399/499 and another at $499/599 which are both much better than the Xbox One X.

People who still using 1080p displays can still benefit from a 4k console especially if it renders at 1080p with the added benefit of stable performance. Having a dedicated 1080P system just for affordability is too short-term.

1. Microsoft doesn't sell TVs, so they don't necessarily have to push 4K as hard as Sony.

2. That comment makes zero sense. Majority of Americans are using Flat Panel HDTVs these days not CRTs.

3. What are you even talking about you do know there is more to graphics than resolution right? Just because something is still in 1080p doesn't mean the graphics have to remain the same as current gen. A console with 4 - 6 Teraflops that only has to target 1080p resolution will offer greater quality visuals than what came before on base PS4 and XB1.

4. For the average household the difference of $200 can be a lot. Most people have to budget their purchases.

Its quite simple, Microsoft understands that majority still own a 1080p display and realize they can take advantage of that fact and offer a cheaper 1080p solution that is still a true next-gen leap over base consoles. Microsoft probably realizes only having a $500 SKU at launch will hurt them, especially if they assume Sony will come at a $399.99 - $449.99 price point.

$349.99 Lockhart could be a hit with more casual gamers who don't care about 4K resolution.

Peformance won't likely be better if both use a Zen 2 CPU at the same clock rate and the GPU difference simply comes down to having enough grunt to push to 4K resolution with the Anaconda. Now if devs offer 1080p/performance modes on the Anaconda then yes it could offer much greater performance than Lockhart.

So then all games will be targeting the weaker of the two? Thus negating the power difference? Freaking stupidity.

Not sure why you responded disagreeing to agree in the end by paraphrasing what I said. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, PC gamers, how do you feel about a 1080p targeted console holding back game performance for another generation?

Yes, but again remember "weaker" consoles only have to target 1080p. You have to take that into consideration when seeing the lower Tflops. The different of saying having a 6 Tflop GPU that only has to target 1080p over 4K is huge.

XB1X is a 6 Tflop console that targets 4K, but it also has a really shitty CPU that is a huge bottleneck. Now imagine taking the Xbox One X, replacing the CPU with a Zen 2, boosting the GPU clock rate higher thanks to the 7nm die and only having to target 1080p and you'll see its not as weak sauce as you might think.

I heard that developers can scale their game engines to meet the performance on various platforms. I know, its crazy. :|

It ain't holding back crap. I don't think you understand how game development works. The CPU will be the same and ram will likely be mostly the same, the only difference is the Anaconda's GPU will have enough grunt to take the 1080p games of the Lockhart and push them to 4K resolution be it native or checkerbaord. Its not like Microsoft was going to target 1080p resolution on the Anaconda.

PS4 will eat their lunch money at that price point. Sony already has the budget console buyer covered going into next gen as the PS4 will probably still be selling strong even after next gen starts.

It's a dumb idea going after 1080p budget gamers when PS5, their real competitor, will be going after 4K adopters and hardcore gamers.

Microsoft will have their 4K console for hardcore gamers as well. I fail to see how a 1080p budget option hurts them.

Also, we don't know for sure that Sony has the budget console buyer covered.

@emgesp:

1 - We already have 2 4-6 tflops consoles out at the price range you’ve specified. Why would Sony and Microsoft make more?

2 - $200 spread out over a console generation (7 years) shouldn’t be a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I would advise anyone to save the money for the better product. A 4-6tflops console in 2025 is gonna be a joke. That would be a waste of money.

And let’s see how many 1080p TVs are around in a few years time. Your idea is far too shortsighted

1. Those target 4K resolution be it native or checkerboard and they have shitty CPUs. I don't think Lockhart will be less than 6 Tflops and that is more than enough to offer a true leap over base XB1 since it will be targeting 1080p resolution.

2. Thats not how people go about their purchases. They don't look long term like that. What matters is initial price point.

It does already with the PS4 Pro. Sony can drop the PS4 and PS4 Pro by $100 when PS5 launches and they'll already be well within the magical $200 price point that budget gamers love.

I fail to see how another 4TF 1080p console from MS when they already have the 1X that will play the same games at 6TF (thanks to "No one left behind" by Phil Spencer) will help them. If anything they will confuse and annoy customers like what SEGA did back in the day by having too many SKUs.

Sony's marketing is much simpler. Cheap PS4 at $200 or less and a $399-499 PS5 with enough power to attract hardcore gamers. MS is going to be trying to beat PS5's power with the Anaconda and a most likely very expensive console so they are screwing themselves over by going head to heat with PS4, PS4 Pro, and 1X with the budget conscious gamer and also getting owned by a cheaper PS5 in the premium console department.

I'm talking next-gen only. There are many types of budget shoppers even at launch of a next-gen system.

First I don't believe the 4 Tflop rumor of the Lockhart, it makes zero sense considering the move to 7nm, You could literally take the XB1X GPU and shave off a crap ton of cost and power consumption with the move to 7nm while offering some clock speed boosts as well. So, I truly think that 4 TF rumor is 100% BS.

Again, a 6+ Tflop console with a Zen 2 CPU that only has to target 1080p will be a huge improvement over what base XB1 can achieve. And then you add the lower price point and I can easily see how this will attract many budget concious buyers.

You might be right even though history tells a different story. Budget conscious gamers don't traditionally jump to buy a new console at launch.

The type of people buying consoles at launch are hardcore that want their money for what they paid for, they wanna see a real difference if they buy a nextgen console. Sony and MS tried this multiple SKU strategy last gen and it worked out that the majority of gamers picked the more expensive SKU at launch. Console pricing is a delicate thing. On one hand, you want to show consumers that your console is powerful and deserves a buy at launch and other the other hand you don't want to hit a scary price point for those same consumers. From the way I see it MS runs a real danger of missing both key areas when it comes to pricing. The Lockhart might appear too weak compared to what Sony will be putting out with PS5 leaving most hardcore Xbox gamers wanting the Anaconda instead which might turn out to be too expensive for them at the same time. MS might end up in an uncomfortable situation with Sony being just the right amount of power and price to steal a majority of the hardcore gamers that buy consoles at launch. We'll see what happens.

@son-goku7523: I agree that a lot of early adopters of next-gen consoles are the hardcore, but perhaps Microsoft is worried Sony's PS5 will be cheaper than Anaconda and feel they need to have a more budget option available at launch to avoid giving Sony a huge lead.

I can definitely see how they would think that. Unfortunately for them I think the budget conscious gamers will wait out PS5 and Anaconda until they become more affordable. It's not like the PS4 and current gen consoles will suddenly die the moment PS5 is released, there are plenty of cross gen games planned out that will release alongside the PS5 and Anaconda. I don't see the Lockhart doing them many favors to be honest.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's just no room for a 1080p console next gen. It won't be long before 8k hype starts up. Even positioning something as a 1080p product is a step in the wrong direction. XBox is going to have a strange mess on their hands if they introduce something weaker than Scorpio as "next generation" and I fully expect that to backfire in it's own right.

@Shewgenja: Maybe it won't be that successful, but we won't know until its released. We might see 1080p as last gen, but again with the majority of people still using 1080p displays I don't think Microsoft is totally wrong in thinking this lower cost option might be very tempting for those people.

@emgesp: If this is the start of Microsoft trying to think outside of the US/UK markets exclusively, then I'd accept that argument. It has always been the Achilles Heel of XBox that developing markets has been a complete afterthought for their brand.

In that sense, I believe it will take more than retroactive hardware, but will be successful with dedicated market and clear segment placement as well. If they just throw it on shelves and expect it to move because of a low price point, it will get destroyed.

@emgesp: That's so incredibly short sighted; a next gen console has no business aiming for 1080p. 4K TVs will make up the majority of TVs by the end of the year let alone 2020 / 2021.

I just don't see a market for a weaker next gen box.

Both machines has similar CPU power but with different view-port rendering power (GPU), hence game play simulation models are the same e.g. it's like two PCs with either RX-470 and Vega 56 at 1500-1700 Mhz

It might not be a successful move, but what else can Microsoft do to try and get a one up on Sony come next-gen? Just stick with a $499.99 SKU aimed at the hardcore and hope for the best?

Lockhart might be a weaker box, but price can really make a difference. $299.99 - $349.99 looks way better than $499.99 to a lot of people. And while it might only be 1080p the hardware will allow a true leap over base XB1 hardware.

Higher CPU power enables packed math FP64/INT64 AVX-256bit to be usable.

CPU's 32bit math has limitation on game simulation and scaling. Most MMO servers are dominated by Intel Xeon CPUs with powerful and useful FP64/INT64 AVX compute power. GPU's view port render doesn't need 64 bit math.

Might as well just get a bonex. It will be cheaper and better than lockheart

Define better. XB1X only plays current gen quality games at 4K where as Lockhart will play next-gen caliber games in 1080p.

Graphics are not simply defined by their resolutions. There is far more that goes into a games graphics then what resolution is targeted.

@emgesp: yet these 2 new models are defined by it.

What I'm saying is 4K doesn't necessarily have to define what makes something look next-gen. Developers will be able to achieve graphical and gameplay improvements with Lockhart hardware because of the dramatically improved CPU and a GPU that only needs enough power to render next-gen titles in 1080p.

As Ron stated, just think of it like a PC setup where everything is the same but you simply have two GPUs aimed at renderering different resolutions but everything else will essentially be the same.

@emgesp: per re: ant17... that doesn't at all guarantee there will be optimization or a clearly defined development path for games for it. There is an inherent risk in not focusing on core gamers with a console launch. XBox fans should know this from lessons learned with all of the crap ports the base XBone got this gen.

With the Ryzen 2 CPU it will easily get 60fps on current gen games. The problem will come for when it tries to run true next gen games. then that 60fps might turn into 30 or less.

Devs will have less incentive to dedicate time to optimizing for Lockheart unless it becomes the market leader which is not likely to happen.

Sony has already counted MS's lower price point (as I had previously predicted in a prior thread)

Behold the 7nm PS4 super slim rumored to retail at $199.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't make a pro version as well for $249 or $50 undercut whatever Lockheart will launch at.

Weather you want to focus on next gen or not makes no difference. People who are looking at price as the main entry point for buying a console will get the cheapest system with the most/best games!

That means PS4/Pro >>> Lockheart for price conscious consumers.

Cross gen development WILL be a thing for at least the first 2 years with 3rd party dev while they wait for next gen consoles to saturate the market. By that time PS5 will have at least one price drop.

Sony's plan is genius.

They don't need 2 SKU's to battle MS's Lockheart, they can just fall back on cheaper PS4's and lock more people into the playstation ecosystem at the same time. Game, set, match!

I'm just stating theoreticals. Game engines have become extremely scalable and if you have two SKUs with the main difference seperating the two is the GPU then scalability shouldn't be a problem.

@emgesp: Fair point as long as the GPU doesn't do that pocket of RAM thing this go-around. A feature that went largely under-utilized and, I believe, abandoned with the Scorpio.

Oh yeah that embedded SRAM is a thing of the past.

At the same clock speed, ZEN v2** has 4X the floating point power over Jaguar CPU.

**Haswell/Broadwell/Skylake S/Kabylake/Coffee Lake equivalent.

X1X's 32 ROPS has 2MB render cache which is very high speed SRAM. Vega 56/64's 64 ROPS has 4MB L2 cache which is very high SRAM.

R9-290's 1MB L2 cache at 1Ghz has 1TB/s cache bandwidth, but it's not connected to ROPS until AMD's Vega IP. NVIDIA's Maxwell 980 Ti's ROPS are connected to 3MB L2 cache. MSI Gaming X 980 Ti has about 700 GB/s L2 cache bandwidth before delta color compression is factored in.

XBO's ESRAM is not significantly better than PS4's GDDR5 i.e. XBO's ESRAM is badly implemented.

X1X followed Maxwell's very high speed micro tile cache render capability.