Is what Microsoft is doing legal?

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#1 Posted by Celtic_34 (1903 posts) -

The Last of Us comes out.  It's available for digital download off of psn.  The difference is it's the consumers choice to buy it there or go to a store and buy it or buy a used copy in a few days.  Microsoft on the otherhand is saying if you buy a game any other way than the way we want you to we are going to charge you fees to do so.  DRM is basically pushed by these companies saying you are buying a license and it's to protect our intellectual property from pirates and all the bad people out there.  But what does used games sales or how you buy it have anything to do with piracy?  Come up with better copy protection.  Shut down sites like piratebay etc.  Resale has nothing to do with piracy at all.   The whole idea of licensing in software was because it's software and can be copied etc..  NOw microsoft is basically stealing from the consumer who bought the game and paid money for it.  Once I paid for it it's mine to do whatever I want with it and what they are doing is theft. I'm not doing anything illegal.  I'm not copying the game.  I'm sharing it with my friends,  just like i share my car.  I can sell it.  Someone can buy it.  I can do whatever i want with it.

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#2 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -
Of course it's legal.
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#3 Posted by ConanTheStoner (16465 posts) -

Its not illegal.  It sucks, but they're well within their rights.

Ironically, one of your proposed solutions would be illegal.

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#4 Posted by FPSfan1985 (2174 posts) -
Not quite sure how they are stealing from us. Care to explain more in depth?
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#5 Posted by Celtic_34 (1903 posts) -

Of course it's legal.Suppaman100

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

 

IF I want my friend to use my copy of the game i have every right to let him do that.

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#6 Posted by Broomes70 (164 posts) -
Not quite sure how they are stealing from us. Care to explain more in depth?FPSfan1985
That lebron shit is cool
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#7 Posted by ConanTheStoner (16465 posts) -

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"]Of course it's legal.Celtic_34

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

You would be surprised (shocked) if you read the terms of service that you agree to on a regular basis with many products and services.

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#8 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"]Of course it's legal.Celtic_34

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

 

IF I want my friend to use my copy of the game i have every right to let him do that.

It looks like you know little about law and terms of agreement.
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#9 Posted by Celtic_34 (1903 posts) -

[QUOTE="Celtic_34"]

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"]Of course it's legal.Suppaman100

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

 

IF I want my friend to use my copy of the game i have every right to let him do that.

It looks like you know little about law and terms of agreement.

 

it's like agreeing to a terms of service though and going on a service and having a bunch of people telling you to kill youself. then a company banning you because they reserve the right.   harassment is harassment

 

i know quite a bit about law and it's messed up.  what lawyers do has not been combatted well enough because most lawyers are massive pussies.

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#10 Posted by Suppaman100 (5250 posts) -

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"][QUOTE="Celtic_34"]

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

 

IF I want my friend to use my copy of the game i have every right to let him do that.

Celtic_34

It looks like you know little about law and terms of agreement.

 

it's like agreeing to a terms of service though and going on a service and having a bunch of people telling you to kill youself. then a company banning you because they reserve the right.   harassment is harassment

 

i know quite a bit about law and it's messed up.  what lawyers do has not been combatted well enough because most lawyers are massive pussies.

It just doesn't work that way. What MS are doing/ want to do with the Xbox ONE is 100% legal.
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#11 Posted by navyguy21 (14482 posts) -
Is that a serious question? :|
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#13 Posted by Chrypt22 (1385 posts) -

The Last of Us comes out.  It's available for digital download off of psn.  The difference is it's the consumers choice to buy it there or go to a store and buy it or buy a used copy in a few days.  Microsoft on the otherhand is saying if you buy a game any other way than the way we want you to we are going to charge you fees to do so.  DRM is basically pushed by these companies saying you are buying a license and it's to protect our intellectual property from pirates and all the bad people out there.  But what does used games sales or how you buy it have anything to do with piracy?  Come up with better copy protection.  Shut down sites like piratebay etc.  Resale has nothing to do with piracy at all.   The whole idea of licensing in software was because it's software and can be copied etc..  NOw microsoft is basically stealing from the consumer who bought the game and paid money for it.  Once I paid for it it's mine to do whatever I want with it and what they are doing is theft. I'm not doing anything illegal.  I'm not copying the game.  I'm sharing it with my friends,  just like i share my car.  I can sell it.  Someone can buy it.  I can do whatever i want with it.

Celtic_34

Actually... youre wrong on a few things and mis-informed.  First off Microsoft isnt restricting anything, they are giving publishers the option to choose what happens to their game. There hasnt been a publisher that says they were going to take that avenue. 

Second.  You can't just shut down pirate sites.  Its not an on off switch that 'Merica can do what they will with.  A lot of these sites are hosted in other countries where we do not have jurisdiction.  While Microsoft has put themselves in a bad corner, I dont necessarily think what they are doing is wrong... its just a bad fight to pick.  Nothing has been said about restricting anything aside from giving the publishers the option to do so.  Thats it.

Third.  You do not own software, the publisher and developer owns the software.  Therefore you cannot do with it as you will.  You pay for the right to USE the software via licensing.  I can give my car away, sell it, let anyone use it because its my car, I can even mod it they way I want to.  You cannot do that with a lot of software.... open source you can, and depending on licensing rules you can do some stuff... but all in all you are not allowed to do what you will with most games because you own a license that gives you the RIGHT to play the game.  For right or wrong.. if a developer or publisher says you cannot share their property, by law, they are allowed to do so because they own it.  

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#14 Posted by Celtic_34 (1903 posts) -

Yes it's a serious question.  Bank of America and EA just lost class action suits because they were doing things that were anti consumer.  I don't see how saying if you buy a used game from gamestop you have to pay fees.  How is that  not taking business away from resellers.  How is that not putting everything in microsoft's hands and creating a monopoly.   Car manufacturers there was just a bill that was proposed to do these kind of things and it was voted on and denied.

Even if Sony wins this round Microsoft is still putting a dent in resale.

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#15 Posted by navyguy21 (14482 posts) -

[QUOTE="Celtic_34"]

The Last of Us comes out.  It's available for digital download off of psn.  The difference is it's the consumers choice to buy it there or go to a store and buy it or buy a used copy in a few days.  Microsoft on the otherhand is saying if you buy a game any other way than the way we want you to we are going to charge you fees to do so.  DRM is basically pushed by these companies saying you are buying a license and it's to protect our intellectual property from pirates and all the bad people out there.  But what does used games sales or how you buy it have anything to do with piracy?  Come up with better copy protection.  Shut down sites like piratebay etc.  Resale has nothing to do with piracy at all.   The whole idea of licensing in software was because it's software and can be copied etc..  NOw microsoft is basically stealing from the consumer who bought the game and paid money for it.  Once I paid for it it's mine to do whatever I want with it and what they are doing is theft. I'm not doing anything illegal.  I'm not copying the game.  I'm sharing it with my friends,  just like i share my car.  I can sell it.  Someone can buy it.  I can do whatever i want with it.

Chrypt22

Actually... youre wrong on a few things and mis-informed.  First off Microsoft isnt restricting anything, they are giving publishers the option to choose what happens to their game.  Microsoft isnt restricting anything and there hasnt been a publisher that says they were going to take that avenue. 

Second.  You can't just shut down pirate sites.  Its not an on off switch that 'Merica can do what they will with.  A lot of these sites are hosted in other countries where we do not have jurisdiction.  While Microsoft has put themselves in a bad corner, I dont necessarily think what they are doing is wrong... its just a bad fight to pick.  Nothing has been said about restricting anything aside from giving the publishers the option to do so.  Thats it.

Third.  You do not own software, the publisher and developer owns the software.  Therefore you cannot do with it as you will.  You pay for the right to USE the software via licensing.  I can give my car away, sell it, let anyone use it because its my car, I can even mod it they way I want to.  You cannot do that with a lot of software.... open source you can, and depending on licensing rules you can do some stuff... but all in all you are not allowed to do what you will with most games because you own a license that gives you the RIGHT to play the game.  For right or wrong.. if a developer or publisher says you cannot share their property, by law, they are allowed to do so because they own it.  

Best response ive seen in a what. Great job man :)
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#16 Posted by Celtic_34 (1903 posts) -

But the whole point of software being licensed was to protect against piracy.  It's not there to create a monopoly and to be used as an anti consumer weapon.   It's not there to infringe on the rights of consumers and resellers.

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#17 Posted by blackace (23576 posts) -

The Last of Us comes out.  It's available for digital download off of psn.  The difference is it's the consumers choice to buy it there or go to a store and buy it or buy a used copy in a few days.  Microsoft on the otherhand is saying if you buy a game any other way than the way we want you to we are going to charge you fees to do so.  DRM is basically pushed by these companies saying you are buying a license and it's to protect our intellectual property from pirates and all the bad people out there.  But what does used games sales or how you buy it have anything to do with piracy?  Come up with better copy protection.  Shut down sites like piratebay etc.  Resale has nothing to do with piracy at all.   The whole idea of licensing in software was because it's software and can be copied etc..  NOw microsoft is basically stealing from the consumer who bought the game and paid money for it.  Once I paid for it it's mine to do whatever I want with it and what they are doing is theft. I'm not doing anything illegal.  I'm not copying the game.  I'm sharing it with my friends,  just like i share my car.  I can sell it.  Someone can buy it.  I can do whatever i want with it.

Celtic_34
There aren't any FEES anymore. M$ aren't charging fees.
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#18 Posted by WitIsWisdom (4670 posts) -

It damn well should be. Illegal that is.

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#19 Posted by foxhound_fox (96201 posts) -
You seem to not understand basic business. If the consumer refuses to buy it, the product might make the company go out of business (or in MS's case, give up on the console market).
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#20 Posted by Celtic_34 (1903 posts) -

You seem to not understand basic business. If the consumer refuses to buy it, the product might make the company go out of business (or in MS's case, give up on the console market).foxhound_fox

 

No I get what you are saying.  Power to the people.  Just don't buy it.   But Microsoft are a bunch of whatever they are is all.  Like I said Sony wins this round Microsoft has still hurt resellers with this stuff which is probably their intent anyways.  Hopefully things will go the way of hte people and everyone will buy sony and the industry will turn around and go another direction.  More power to the consumer.  More happy customers.  More people buying things.  But as it stands now companies like this have basically run the economy into the toilet.  Screw everyone else for our own gain.  

I fully get what Microsoft does.  I'm just coming from a different place.

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#21 Posted by BosoxJoe5 (249 posts) -

Software is software where is it a game or Word. I as someone who makes software to support myself, can decide how my software is used. I can create any terms I want. Once you buy my software and open the package you agree to my terms. No one is making you buy my software, that is your choice. When you buy a house, you have to live in it for one year before you can live anywhere else. So means not only you are not allowed to sell or rent it, you can't even move or buy a second home. (This of course is if you have a mortgage.) You made the choice to buy my software, you agreed to my terms of the sale, you have been informed before hand about the terms, you left your home and went to a store(or online) to buy the software of which you know my terms and therefore agreed to them.

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#22 Posted by simomate (1875 posts) -

The Last of Us comes out.  It's available for digital download off of psn.  The difference is it's the consumers choice to buy it there or go to a store and buy it or buy a used copy in a few days.  Microsoft on the otherhand is saying if you buy a game any other way than the way we want you to we are going to charge you fees to do so.  DRM is basically pushed by these companies saying you are buying a license and it's to protect our intellectual property from pirates and all the bad people out there.  But what does used games sales or how you buy it have anything to do with piracy?  Come up with better copy protection.  Shut down sites like piratebay etc.  Resale has nothing to do with piracy at all.   The whole idea of licensing in software was because it's software and can be copied etc..  NOw microsoft is basically stealing from the consumer who bought the game and paid money for it.  Once I paid for it it's mine to do whatever I want with it and what they are doing is theft. I'm not doing anything illegal.  I'm not copying the game.  I'm sharing it with my friends,  just like i share my car.  I can sell it.  Someone can buy it.  I can do whatever i want with it.

Celtic_34
Do you honestly think Microsoft would do something so drastic if it was illegal? They aren't THAT stupid :P
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#23 Posted by BosoxJoe5 (249 posts) -

  But as it stands now companies like this have basically run the economy into the toilet.  Screw everyone else for our own gain.  

I fully get what Microsoft does.  I'm just coming from a different place.

Celtic_34

No this not true. MS can sell their wares anyway they see fit, they are legally able to do that. Gamestop going out of business wouldn't hurt the economy other than the immediate loss of jobs but in 6 months that wouldn't be any issue. Current used game market doesn't help the consumer. The person who sells the games gets much less than they should, and the person who buy the game pays too much. The used car business is nearly as profitable as used games.

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#24 Posted by James161324 (8315 posts) -

Its legal as can be. You not buying the game, your buying a license to play said game. Its how software works, be glad your still allowed to resell the game at all. They don't have to allow you to do it. 

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#25 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
It's borderline illegal. There's still a grey area in digital download. They are taking advantage of this.
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#26 Posted by WilliamRLBaker (28915 posts) -
It's borderline illegal. There's still a grey area in digital download. They are taking advantage of this. Heirren
....it either isn't or is illegal. there is no such thing as borderline illegal.
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#27 Posted by dave123321 (35326 posts) -
[QUOTE="Heirren"]It's borderline illegal. There's still a grey area in digital download. They are taking advantage of this. WilliamRLBaker
....it either isn't or is illegal. there is no such thing as borderline illegal.

You can certainly walk the line between the two.
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#28 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
[QUOTE="Heirren"]It's borderline illegal. There's still a grey area in digital download. They are taking advantage of this. WilliamRLBaker
....it either isn't or is illegal. there is no such thing as borderline illegal.

When the legal ethics of something aren't set in stone I'd say that is a fair assessment.
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#29 Posted by savagetwinkie (7981 posts) -

[QUOTE="Celtic_34"]

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"]Of course it's legal.ConanTheStoner

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

You would be surprised (shocked) if you read the terms of service that you agree to on a regular basis with many products and services.

those EULA's really aren't legal documents. They wouldn't hold up in a court of law against the average person. You'd be surprised how often a document may or may not be valid. For instance I signed a lease to rent an apartment, in the state of mass you get 30 days before a landlord can charge a late fee. But I agreed to paying a late fee after only a week, which she's only allowed to give me a late notice after 7 days. Just because you agree to something doesn't make it a legal contract. And its especially a grey area with software since the contract is only presented AFTER the purchase.
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#30 Posted by kingtito (8385 posts) -

They have very good lawyers. What they are doing is legal, though probably due to some kind of technicality.

Ginosaji
You think you own the software on those disc? There is no "technicality" to it. It's perfectly legal and MS doesn't have to do any underhanded tricks for it to be legal.
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#31 Posted by kingtito (8385 posts) -
[QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"][QUOTE="Heirren"]It's borderline illegal. There's still a grey area in digital download. They are taking advantage of this. Heirren
....it either isn't or is illegal. there is no such thing as borderline illegal.

When the legal ethics of something aren't set in stone I'd say that is a fair assessment.

Since when is DRM's even close to borderline illegal? It's been going on with software for years and years. MS isn't introducing anything new and the last time I checked, games are software.
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#32 Posted by ConanTheStoner (16465 posts) -

[QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

[QUOTE="Celtic_34"]

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

savagetwinkie

You would be surprised (shocked) if you read the terms of service that you agree to on a regular basis with many products and services.

those EULA's really aren't legal documents. They wouldn't hold up in a court of law against the average person. You'd be surprised how often a document may or may not be valid. For instance I signed a lease to rent an apartment, in the state of mass you get 30 days before a landlord can charge a late fee. But I agreed to paying a late fee after only a week, which she's only allowed to give me a late notice after 7 days. Just because you agree to something doesn't make it a legal contract. And its especially a grey area with software since the contract is only presented AFTER the purchase.

Of course!  That's not the point I was trying to get across.

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#33 Posted by savagetwinkie (7981 posts) -

[QUOTE="savagetwinkie"][QUOTE="ConanTheStoner"]

You would be surprised (shocked) if you read the terms of service that you agree to on a regular basis with many products and services.

ConanTheStoner

those EULA's really aren't legal documents. They wouldn't hold up in a court of law against the average person. You'd be surprised how often a document may or may not be valid. For instance I signed a lease to rent an apartment, in the state of mass you get 30 days before a landlord can charge a late fee. But I agreed to paying a late fee after only a week, which she's only allowed to give me a late notice after 7 days. Just because you agree to something doesn't make it a legal contract. And its especially a grey area with software since the contract is only presented AFTER the purchase.

Of course!  That's not the point I was trying to get across.

well, its not like your agreeing, your forced to accept because you already paid for it..
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#34 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
[QUOTE="kingtito"][QUOTE="Heirren"][QUOTE="WilliamRLBaker"] ....it either isn't or is illegal. there is no such thing as borderline illegal.

When the legal ethics of something aren't set in stone I'd say that is a fair assessment.

Since when is DRM's even close to borderline illegal? It's been going on with software for years and years. MS isn't introducing anything new and the last time I checked, games are software.

Because the games are connected to the console. When you go to the store and buy a game, you see the box and what it offers. That is what your money gets you. In the case of ms they're going to have to put "warnings/etc" on this box stating that in order to use this game you need Internet and that it is possible that somewhere down the road it may not work anymore. Because ms has complete control, they can shut down one product which in turn would affect others--games, controllers, etc. Drm itself is fine--it openly tells customers what it does to X product. The Xbox One is just so all over the place in this respect, it's ridiculous. As Miyamoto said, games are distributed the same way toys are.
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#35 Posted by mariokart64fan (20390 posts) -

[QUOTE="Celtic_34"]

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"] It looks like you know little about law and terms of agreement.Suppaman100

 

it's like agreeing to a terms of service though and going on a service and having a bunch of people telling you to kill youself. then a company banning you because they reserve the right.   harassment is harassment

 

i know quite a bit about law and it's messed up.  what lawyers do has not been combatted well enough because most lawyers are massive pussies.

It just doesn't work that way. What MS are doing/ want to do with the Xbox ONE is 100% legal.

how is  not allowing you to sell your xbox one games/system when you need the money ,  legal? are we not allowed to sell our jewelry or  old stuff we no longer need? please tell me you live in the usa where selling your car is completely legal ,  regardless of how old it is ,

 

because what microsoft has now said that you can not buy preowned xbox ones, which means --- i dont know when their out of print that , your screwed in the same way if you need a quick buck because of hardships you can not sell your xbox one to help you out , 

see ya in bankruptcy court when your hit a wall and you have nothing but an xbox one to sell -cant sell lol so  how is that legal ? 

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#36 Posted by Chrypt22 (1385 posts) -

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]You seem to not understand basic business. If the consumer refuses to buy it, the product might make the company go out of business (or in MS's case, give up on the console market).Celtic_34

 

No I get what you are saying.  Power to the people.  Just don't buy it.   But Microsoft are a bunch of whatever they are is all.  Like I said Sony wins this round Microsoft has still hurt resellers with this stuff which is probably their intent anyways.  Hopefully things will go the way of hte people and everyone will buy sony and the industry will turn around and go another direction.  More power to the consumer.  More happy customers.  More people buying things.  But as it stands now companies like this have basically run the economy into the toilet.  Screw everyone else for our own gain.  

I fully get what Microsoft does.  I'm just coming from a different place.

Do you actually read the facts or just make up stuff in your imaginary world?  What has Microsoft done to: A) Hurt the Economy? and B) Screw the consumer? You can argue that Microsoft has made some bad decisions around XB1 and there would be little argument against that.  However, they are not bait and switching people, they are telling you what you get.  They are a little arrogant in the fact that their position is that they think their product is so superior that people will buy it over PS4.  In a lot of ways it is superior, but at the cost of other things such as checking in every 24 hours (which is a decision that will probably be reversed in my opinion).  Also... the whole borrowing games, and rentals is not true... Microsoft IS NOT... IS NOT... keeping you from doing this, they are allowing the publishers to control that aspect, which none have stated they were going to do so.

As for your comment about Microsoft screwing the economy.  That probably is the most ignorant thing I have read on gamespot message boards in a long, long time.  Now you may be in middle school, or maybe you are just that stupid, but last time I checked the IT industry isnt necessarily hurting.  You can hate the XB1, or hate the decisions they made behind it... all well and good, but as a company hate em or not, are one of the greatest innovators in the past 20 years and are one of the most charitable corporations in the world.  That aside, their products for enterprise solutions are a majority of what companies rely on to do business... hence keeping the economy going.  

I get it, your mad bro... or maybe you just fail at trolling.  Either way, bring up valid arguments and not blatant lies and ridiculous comments.  

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#37 Posted by Nonstop-Madness (9825 posts) -
yes it is. Legally you don't actually even own your games. You simply own a licensed copy of the product. Look up Vernor vs Autodesk.
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#38 Posted by pcgamingowns (1223 posts) -

f*ck xbox

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#39 Posted by MrGeezer (58995 posts) -

The Last of Us comes out.  It's available for digital download off of psn.  The difference is it's the consumers choice to buy it there or go to a store and buy it or buy a used copy in a few days.  Microsoft on the otherhand is saying if you buy a game any other way than the way we want you to we are going to charge you fees to do so.  DRM is basically pushed by these companies saying you are buying a license and it's to protect our intellectual property from pirates and all the bad people out there.  But what does used games sales or how you buy it have anything to do with piracy?  Come up with better copy protection.  Shut down sites like piratebay etc.  Resale has nothing to do with piracy at all.   The whole idea of licensing in software was because it's software and can be copied etc..  NOw microsoft is basically stealing from the consumer who bought the game and paid money for it.  Once I paid for it it's mine to do whatever I want with it and what they are doing is theft. I'm not doing anything illegal.  I'm not copying the game.  I'm sharing it with my friends,  just like i share my car.  I can sell it.  Someone can buy it.  I can do whatever i want with it.

Celtic_34
Yes, it's legal. At least in the USA, I can't speak for other countries. But presumably, if it's illegal in some other country then the X1 won't be available in that country. Yes, you're buying a license. That's technically ALWAYS been the way it is. Sure, people buy NIN's Pretty Hate Machine and then rip it to a CD-R and give it to their friend, but that isn't actually LEGAL. It's just unenforceable (or more to the point, not enforceable without pissing off consumers so much that they stop buying the album). Microsoft is trying to sell us a license instead of a product, but "technically" that's the way it's been for a long ass time. People can pop a Bob Marley album into a CD player during a party, but "technically" that probably violates the EULA. You can invite your entire extended family and friends over for Christmas and do a showing of a Christmas movie (let's just say, Die Hard), but that probably violates the EULA. On another point, first sale doctrine allows you to sell what you purchased, but that doesn't mean it has to WORK. Yes, you can ALWAYS legally sell or buy used game discs. That DOESN'T mean that it's illegal for the developers or publishers to immediately have and error message saying "this game is used. Sorry, go buy a new copy." And yes, I am 100% okay with that. That SHOULD be legal. I support creators' right to control the method of distribution of their creations, which is precisely why I hate piracy. If creators want to say, "your license for use of this product extends only to the owner of the account on which it was registered, and the EULA only allows it to be installed on one machine at any given time", they should be able to state those terms. But that doesn't mean that enforcing such terms isn't STUPID. If I buy a game disc, there are certain things I expect to be allowed to do with it. One can put restrictions on those things, and I support the right for creators to do that. But creating or enforcing such restrictions might still be stupid as $hit, because the ultimate result is that the product (or "license") loses value to customers and then they stop buying it. It's like "freedom of speech". Yes, you have the right to make racist comments to your boss, and you SHOULD have the right to make racist comments to your boss. But the fact that you do and should have such a right doesn't mean you should use it. Because the existence of such rights don't (and shouldn't) protect people from the CONSEQUENCES of exercising those rights. You should totally have the right to curse at your boss and make racially imflammatory insults towards him, but he should totally have the right to fire your ass. Microsoft should totally have the right to make a restrictive machine such as the X1, but gamers should totally have the right to not buy it. Actions have consequences, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't have the freedom to make actions that hurt their company. They can control the content the way that they want. If it works, it works. If it doesn't work, then they f***ed up.
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#40 Posted by lostrib (49999 posts) -

Legality may depend on where you live. So your answer to all of this is basically Internet censorship, which is way worse than anything MS is doing

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#41 Posted by soulitane (15017 posts) -

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"]Of course it's legal.Celtic_34

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

 

IF I want my friend to use my copy of the game i have every right to let him do that.

You don't own what's on the disc, you own the right to use it as they see fit.
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#42 Posted by KungfuKitten (24021 posts) -

In EU this could be interesting. The TOU's don't really mean a thing in the EU.

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#43 Posted by MrGeezer (58995 posts) -

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"]Of course it's legal.Celtic_34

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

 

IF I want my friend to use my copy of the game i have every right to let him do that.

Uh...no. You have every right to sell or lend or give your friend the disc that you bought. You DON'T have the right for that disc to work when he puts it into his machine. That's the thing though...it's not the physical disc which really has the value, it's the content of that disc which has value. Accessing that content has pretty much ALWAYS simply been an end user licensing agreement, it's just that the terms of such an agreement are pretty hard to enforce when it is delivered via a physical product that people won't buy if it's too inconvenient for them. If you buy Forza 5, no one is gonna break into your house and repossess the physical disc that you bought. But there's nothing inherently wrong with them tying use of that game to an account which renders the disc useless if certain conditions aren't met. You can ALWAYS sell any game you bought to someone else, but the publishers or the developers or the console manufacturers are under absolutely under no obligation to let that game WORK on a second console or a second account. Again, this just isn't usually enforced. Not with physical media anyway, since enforcement would be either damn near impossible or so unpleasant that it results in people not buying it. But it's legal and it SHOULD be legal. It's not theft, just like how the used game market isn't theft.
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#44 Posted by Seiki_sands (1901 posts) -

I go to a store that has a toothbrush advertised for sale.

The packaging says the product is indeed a toothbrush used for cleaning teeth.

I buy the product and take it home.

When I open the product at home there is a note slipped inside. It says "the product you have purchased is not a toothbrush, it is the right to use our brush ("our" being Oral-B corp.) for the purpose of brushing your teeth twice, and only twice, daily in the manner prescribed in the directions. Any other use is not permitted and you must pay a $10 fee to us if we declare misuse. As this is our brush you may not resell it. If you use this product you agree to our terms." In this hypothetical scenario, let us also assume that, like software, toothbrushes also often have a no returns if opened policy.

Despite everyone saying this and all the other nasty terms deriving from this practice is 100% legal I would say you are on VERY shaky ground and would refer you to cases like Vernor v. Autodesk https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/02/you-bought-software-you-own-it-vernor-v-autodesk

These sorts of things are ongoing questions. No court has ever ruled on the general validity of shrinkwrap contracts (contracts discovered after the point of purchase), only on specific terms of the contracts, like those in my link, which they have often found to be unconscionable contracts of adhesion that violate the commercial code laws.

To me shrinkwrap, EULAs, and clickwrap contracts that declare software to be licenses and not products are nothing short of fraud and hopefully someday a court will disallow their use. In any kind of fair or sane legal system a contract a consumer agrees to needs to be agreed to BEFORE the point of purchase, not the point of first use. Especially when the contract says one thing and the promotional material says something completely different (you are buying a game, wait, no you are buying a license).

 

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#45 Posted by WilliamRLBaker (28915 posts) -

...why would someone sell a used toothbrush?....why would someone buy a used toothbrush?

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#46 Posted by sonny2dap (1314 posts) -

[QUOTE="Celtic_34"]

[QUOTE="Suppaman100"]Of course it's legal.ConanTheStoner

 

they can't charge you for something after you buy it though and restrict access to certain things.  thats theft.  IT's like saying we are going to take back our game if you dont use it properly.

You would be surprised (shocked) if you read the terms of service that you agree to on a regular basis with many products and services.

you would be shocked how illegal those terms and conditions are in many cases.
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#47 Posted by Seiki_sands (1901 posts) -

...why would someone sell a used toothbrush?....why would someone buy a used toothbrush?

WilliamRLBaker

Why do people deliberately pretend to be stupid when they don't wish to engage on the merits of an argument, rather than simply not speak?

How many roads must a man walk down, before you can call him a man?

Four questions to which the answer is only discoverable by a wiser man than me.

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#48 Posted by nethernova (5361 posts) -

In EU this could be interesting. The TOU's don't really mean a thing in the EU.

KungfuKitten
This. There was already trouble with Steam because the law says you are allowed to trade in your games, even in digital form. I have no clue how that ended or if it's still going on but expect the same for Microsoft. http://www.vg247.com/2012/07/03/eu-court-rules-gamers-are-free-to-resell-digital-games/