Is it time to remove Sonic Team?

Yes. Been advocating this for years, Sonic Team can't make a good Sonic game even if their life depends on it. Stop torturing the blue hedgehog plis.

*Also sad fun fact, in an attempt to make Sonic relevant and competing with the also as terrible Nintendo mascot, SEGA combined free mobile game downloads as software sold for Sonic games. Which means Sonic in SEGA's book has sold 300 million unit. Also did it for SMT games so it seems like its competitive with the much popular Persona spin off.

**Oh also the answer is From Soft. I think From Soft can make a great Sonic game, and I have a few interesting ideas they could use. I think if Sonic sets in victorian or gothic era, massive architecture with story influences from lovecraft and combat mechanics from souls but with dash mechanic instead of dodge rolling. Sonic can wear costume from like that french movie Brotherhood of Wolf or something and his motive is to search for this "paleblood". Much better story potential than whatever princess of rings or emerald or whatever the heck Sonic used to search for. Very interesting ideas.

I believe it was time about 24 games ago, no?

Yup. Time to put them out of their misery.

It's like watching some 80s rock band of middling fame and success that most people forgot about stubbornly continuing to tour your local pubs and nightclubs despite being in their 60s, their hairlines receding out of existence and their faces wrinkled up like a can of dried prunes. Sorta simultaneously impressive and sad.

Not really feel they need to go, but I wish Sega could be equally committed to helping their IPs grow by showing a fraction of the commitment and optimism that they show each Sonic title. They won't fund new Bayonetta games and Nintendo has to bankroll them. They won't make the Persona releases wider despite its critical success for years, and take restrictive deals with Sony (that or on their own just decide not to make it more widely available).

Why weren't they replaced by the Sonic Mania team, those people obviously have more love and understanding for what it means to make a good Sonic game.

Were they involved with Sonic Mania? Mania was pretty good - I'd probably say better then the Genesis games

I think it would be interesting to see a Nintendo developed Sonic game.

They were never good. Kill it with fire.

They were respectable back in the day, at least. I would argue that they went on a downward spiral after the Dreamcast, which makes sense considering it was then that they had to adapt to being third party. But yes, that was a long time ago. They can go away now.

I enjoyed their earlier work when it was on Sega systems. Since Sega went third party though? Yeah, they aren't great or even good. Sonic Generations was ok I guess. We need more from the Sonic Mania team.

@Litchie: Yes. Besides Sonic Mania, last great Sonic game was Sonic & Knuckles.

Sonic Generations was ok.

Bordering on good.

Wow, a 50/50 poll. Don't see that very often.

OT, I dunno really but voted yes anyway. lol :P

@sakaixx: The 300 million number for Sonic is sales only. When including free mobile downloads, Sonic has shifted over 1 billion units.

In the last ten years, can only think of two good games they've made, Sonic Generations and Puyo Puyo Tetris. They just need to make another Generations style game, without the 2D levels.

They should not be replaced by WayForward. It should be the Sonic Mania team that carries 2D Sonic forward. Sega should just hire them and make them an official team.

Ideal scenario would be Mania team handling 2D Sonic, and Sonic Team making another Generations-style game focused on the 3D levels.

I voted "no" - but it's really more a "no" for discontinuing Sonic than the team itself. If they can't make a good Sonic game then someone else should (*cough Mania*)

Yes. Time to move on. They were a team that produced a handful of ok games in the early days ... but that's about it. Talk about Nostalgia when it come to Nintendo fans, well Sonic fans are still riding on the Sega Genesis days ... so yeah.

Its actually less at 70m-80m for traditional sales.

I clearly using outdated data when I first saw Sonic somehow jumped from 70m sold in 2013 or 2014 to 300m in 2016 and since then neglected SEGA reporting as they bloat those numbers. Anyhow no way Sonic sold 300m, I mean come on the only good Sonic game the past 10 years is Sonic Mania, maybe Sonic Generations but no way those somehow titles moved 230m units.

Also link here for SEGA 2012 -2018 IR for reference.

Credit to them btw.

Sonic Team isn't really a team though. It's actually more of a brand name than anything, because the people that work on Sonic by in large tend to come and go and are mostly amateurs. A lot of the actual talent transfer to other teams, like Ryu Ga Gotoku Studios, or are poached by Nintendo (Mario Odyssey was made by a bunch of former Sonic Team members, for example).

So the problem is that there isn't actually a core group gaining experience in unison, and on top of that, SEGA hasn't provided a AAA budget for a Sonic game in almost 15 years. With all that said, there has been a huge shift as of late to have Sonic be primarily controlled by SEGA of America, so we'll see what ends up being the result of that.

@sakaixx:

ResetEra's claimed estimates are wrong, as they are incomplete and heavily underestimated, missing huge chunks of data.

Video Game Sales gives a more complete breakdown of Sonic sales:

https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic

The total adds up to over 170 million sales, not including free mobile downloads.

While less than Sega's claim of 300M sales (which a Sega rep claimed in an interview years ago), it's definitely more than ResetEra's incorrect claim of <100M.

From Sega IR FY 2011 - 2013...

SEGA literally mentioned it in their IR report. Next year 2014 it jumped to 150m, SEGA also explicitly mention includes free download titles for 2014.. those resetera guys just compile links.

2011

2013

@sakaixx: Again, those ResetEra numbers are incomplete. They only go up to 2011, only include physical package sales, list Mario & Sonic separately from Sonic, and do not include console bundles or paid downloads. When you add together physical sales, console bundles, paid downloads and Mario & Sonic up until 2020, the total is at least 170M sales, as listed at VG Sales.

Again, its not resetera numbers its from SEGA up till 2013 before SEGA counted free mobile titles together.

Even if it includes paid bundles and paid downloads on mobile no way sonic can jump from 70m to 150m in one year without free titles. Even with Mario and Sonic games.

Also 2010 Sonic Racing in your reference also includes free download version which is 16m download if you bother to click the reference. Paid ver only sold 2m.

Also what games in other? Free mobile titles like below

I think I refer SEGA IR and what they write instead of your link. I mean if you want additional evidence CESA which do research activities, host Tokyo Game Award & Tokyo Game Show, its branch CERO handles rating of games content in Japan and president of SEGA is also somehow chairman of CESA, publishes a paper on top selling paid games from Japan. Paid Sonic games only sold 78m worldwide.

Ofcourse CESA gets their data from publishers in case you ask.

While I like Mania, I think it's a very "safe" game. Which, to be frank, is probably what was needed.

If was give Sonic Team credit, they at least "try shit".

ResetEra took Sega's numbers out of context and misinterpreted them. Up until 2011, Sega only reported physical boxed sales, not paid downloads.

According to your own source, Sonic sold 89 million physical boxed sales (70M Sonic the Hedgehog and 19M Mario & Sonic) up until March 2011, not 70M. This did not include paid downloads.

Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing was a paid download on mobile, and so were Sonic Dash and Sonic Jump, up until 2013, before any Sonic mobile games ever went free-to-play. Combined, those three mobile games sold over 48 million paid downloads up until March 2013. The Sonic 1 mobile port had also sold 8 million paid downloads up until 2008. That's already over 56M paid downloads from those four mobile games, which are not included in the 89M physical boxed sales number above.

ResetEra also took CESA's numbers out of context and misinterpreted them. The CESA 2015 paper again only reported physical boxed sales, not paid downloads. The 78M number is only for physical boxed sales of Sonic the Hedgehog games up until 2014. Combined with Mario & Sonic sales up 2011, that's 97M+ physical boxed sales up until 2014. Now add the 56M+ paid mobile downloads up until March 2011, and that's already 153M+ sales up until 2014.

Dont delete the second part. SEGA literally reported to CESA that Sonic sold 78m in 2015. Not me or anyone but SEGA the one reporting it. Also "paid" mobile game been offered free for many times pre your link report date.

@sakaixx: I already addressed and debunked your CESA claim in my edit above:

"ResetEra also took CESA's numbers out of context and misinterpreted them. The CESA 2015 paper again only reported physical boxed sales, not paid downloads. The 78M number is only for physical boxed sales of Sonic the Hedgehog games up until 2014. Combined with Mario & Sonic sales up 2011, that's 97M+ physical boxed sales up until 2014. Now add the 56M+ paid mobile downloads up until March 2011, and that's already 153M+ sales up until 2014."

As for Sonic Racing, that was only free for one week up until then. Even if you try to downplay that number, Sonic mobile games would still have sold in the region of 40-50M paid downloads up until March 2013.

@Jag85: and I have debunked paid app, its actually given away free sometime.

Also why would SEGA only give physical sales to CESA when CESA literally publish paper on behalf of Japan gov on the overall state of Japanese entertainment industry. Everyone else give digital numbers but somehow SEGA pre 2015 dont know sonic could be a paid download game.

@sakaixx:

Which I have already counter-debunked. It was only one app free for one week. Downplaying that one app doesn't make much difference. You're still looking at 40M+ paid mobile downloads up until 2013.

CESA White Paper does not cover the mobile market. It specifically only covers the console market. The mobile market is covered separately in a different CESA paper. They're two different markets.

@Jag85:

I completely understand and I am again countering with how SEGA counted Sonic and its other games.

Clearly Sonic "paid download" mobile games been given away and not only just one game nor 1 time and they continue to dilute the numbers. Sonic dash, paid only for 1 month and then went free to play but counted as "premium" on that report that you shared. Easy 22m into Sonic sales.

Its even worst for SMT. Before SEGA counted series only free mobile game SMT DxD2 combined with traditional packaged sales SMT was only around 7m max sold. But they need to make SMT seems competitive as Persona titles and impress investors so they bloat numbers.

@sakaixx:

The report is up to March 2013 (end of fiscal year 2013), before Sonic Dash went F2P the following month. It had 22M+ paid downloads before going F2P, after which downloads shot up to 100M+ over the next year (and is now 400M+).

Sega didn't start including F2P numbers in their reports until a few years ago. Before that, they only reported physical package sales. As Sega's F2P mobile business grew, they started combining sales and F2P downloads in their reports a few years ago.

@Jag85: and it actually went free to play on 29 March not in April. As said, SEGA dilutes these numbers with free download weeks and such tactics.

Also in your 2013 FY report. Sega still separates mobile game downloads. Sonic games still shown 70m sold, Mario x Sonic is a different entity.

I can accept Mario x Sonic sure but the mobile title only included into sonic total tally next year FY 2014 and the jump is massive.

@uninspiredcup: that's fair. I think Colors is my favorite example of them taking a risk while also staying grounded. It straddles what makes the classics good with new pretty well

1. Sonic Team has changed virtually every game. It isn't like the Zelda or Mario teams that have core individuals for each and every iteration.

2. Sonic hasn't had a AAA budget since the Dreamcast.

3. Sonic Adventure is painfully overrated if you ask me. It was a solid game, not much more.

4. Only morons think the Genesis Sonic games weren't great. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a masterpiece and one of the best 2D games ever made. Only gamers who don't understand Sonic games think otherwise.

5. Sonic Mania is an excellent 2D game and Sonic game. Sega should utilize more of the Sonic development community for ideas. Whether they can replicate the success in 3D is a question, however.

6. Pumping out Sonic game after Sonic game was a bad idea. There is a reason console Mario games have years between them.

To answer your question, the best developer would be Nintendo R&D1.

See a lot of people do this. Not an expert on the genre so don't comment.

@uninspiredcup: As a self proclaimed expert, my opinion is that kids "get it" pretty quickly even now, and can pick up and play old and new Sonic games. It's actually intransigent adults that can't get over how these games don't adhere to the same copy and paste formulas popularized by Nintendo games from their youth.

@sakaixx: Lol I admit you got me with From at first.

@sakaixx: Just a day before the end of FY 2013 (March 2013). Doesn't make much difference.

Exactly. Sega listed physical sales and paid mobile downloads separately up until FY 2014. 78M physical Sonic the Hedgehog sales, 19M+ Mario & Sonic sales, and 40-50 M paid mobile downloads. So we're looking at 140M+ sales up until FY 2014.

Paid mobile games were a major market up until the early 2010s, before the mobile market shifted to F2P by the mid-2010s. Mobile games like Sonic, Tetris and Minecraft racked up large numbers of paid downloads during this period.

Hey look guys, Sonic sucks.... Again.

He's sucked since the beginning.

I see.

Never been a fan either. Find the gameplay annoying.

@TheEroica: Nope, Sonic 1-3 were fantastic (never played Sonic CD, but it probably is great also) and still are. Sonic was killed by 3d, Sonic Team just could never wrap their heads around making a 3d game sadly.

Colors, Generations, Mania and the racing games are all good. They aren’t Mario good, but they’re good.

@goldenelementxl: Oh I forgot about the kart games, really liked the first one they released for the ps3/360. I actually like that one more then Mario Kart 8.

This.

They should erase 3d sonic games from existence, because that shit aint fun. Make more 2D Sonic games.

Don't care I don't buy sonic games since sonic 2

Sonic the Hedgehog as well as Sonic Team should have been removed during the year 2002. The whole entire franchise should be burned to the ground then it should be disintegrated and the ashes should be put in a vault once and for all.

So not a fan, then?

Agree with the fellow who brought up Sonic racing, it unironically probably is the best of the Sonic 3D games.