Is exclusivity the biggest threat to VR?

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commander

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#51  Edited By commander
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@R4gn4r0k said:
@commander said:

the biggest problem is that there ain't any real good headsets, there could be , the rift cv1 was a good headset, but the resolution is not good enough anymore.

Al this inside outside bs, and headsets that are way too heavy

True there are three important aspects imo:

  • Resolution of the screens
  • Weight of the headset
  • Wires

I don't think wires are such a major hurdle, because playspaces are mostly not that big anyway. and you can easily solve your freedom of movement with one pull key chain (and maybe some extension cables, depending on the length of your standard vr cable)

This is a picture I made quite some time ago, to explain how to set it up. When you turn it goes around your neck, and can go as far as twice around your neck (and that take a long time before that happens). All you got to do then is pause and unwind it with two turns.

and no you can't hang yourself with this lol. But I would not use this system with children tho.

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#52 commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@xantufrog said:

I would place it at second. I think for many the cost of entry - not just for the headset but the hardware to power it at non-vomit-inducing framerates - is the biggest still. The mass market is much cheaper than the PC enthusiast market. People scuffle here over $300 vs $400 for a console - then the VR companies waltz in with an $800+ headset that demand a $1000+ rig to make it a properly enjoyable experience... it's just not gonna sell that much. You can go cheaper, of course... but perhaps in VR more than any other area of gaming the lower-end visuals and framerates are genuinely crippling. retro-style indies are a non-viable fallback for low-end VR. The best examples of low-end friendly are things like Superhot which creatively use ultra-minimalist graphics to good effect.

However, I definitely agree - there's good VR content now with broad(er) appeal, but it's fragmented on different headsets. BAD idea.

This is defenitely now going to change with the new power standard of the new consoles. vr is going to become more accessible, the power of a 1070 is soon going to be low end. A gtx 2070-2080 mid end and during this new gen it's going to go towards low end as well.

A gtx 1070 will take you a long way in todays vr, even on the more expensive headsets.

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#53 R4gn4r0k
Member since 2004 • 36089 Posts

@commander: that’s a nice idea.

But I can see headsets becoming wireless in the future.

I see wired headsets kinda like wired controllers, only a thousand times worse.

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#54 I_P_Daily  Online
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@davillain-: Im a VR realist, VR has been around for decades, and yet VR nutjobs try to tell you its still in its birthing phase or whatever. VR never took off because people simply don't care about it.

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#55 commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@R4gn4r0k said:

@commander: that’s a nice idea.

But I can see headsets becoming wireless in the future.

I see wired headsets kinda like wired controllers, only a thousand times worse.

you arleady have an option for wireless, the vive cosmos elite is the best option for it I think, I know the quest has 2 wifi streaming but it's less fast, and I heard it's not really fast enough.

and as for the wires, they hardly ever bother me with this setup, the freedom is almost as good as wireles, as long as you don't do any handstands and stuff.

I also have a mat in the middle of my playspace, so I alway know where my centre is. If you don't do that, you'll always run into the border screwing with your gameplay because you can't orient yourself and of course the cables become a problem as well.

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#56  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts
@i_p_daily said:

@davillain-: Im a VR realist, VR has been around for decades, and yet VR nutjobs try to tell you its still in its birthing phase or whatever. VR never took off because people simply don't care about it.

it's still in its birthing phase, the psvr has way too many major flaws, and pc headsets manufacturer headsets make all poor design choices, and it's still downright expensive if you want a good setup.

Yet the markt has as many users as there are ps4 users, that's how big that market is.

You're not a realist, you're a denialist. I don't know what you're reasons are but you are really clueless how popular this technology is. Maybe because you're scared because it will replace normal gaming, yeah that will never be the case, or certainly not in the near future, this is is a whole new market in itself.

A market that was kinda tapped in with the wii. A lot of people find the concept of active gaming very interesting, including myself, and then you have the sim enthousiast as well.

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#57 commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts
@eoten said:

One of the reasons I was thinking of buying a 6800XT was to drive a higher resolution next gen VR headset I was looking at that is 2160x2160 per eye. With eyes so close to the screen it's the only situation where I think 4K may have some actual value. That's $650 on top of $600 for a PC powered headset with inside-out tracking. That's a lot of money for something that doesn't have a lot of serious games on it yet, and will likely be an obsolete setup by time VR does.

Yeah well, you don't have to go all out to experience vr, a gtx 1070 will alraedy take you a long way, even a gtx 1060 will run most games.

Higher resolution is always nice, but if you're new to this, even an old dk2 will blow your mind, and the psvr for instance is extremy good at migitating the screen door effect, at a1080 p resolution.

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#58  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@appariti0n said:

I think the biggest problem is still cost, and the need for wires.

Unfortunately the one headset that appears to mitigate both of these issues requires you sell your soul to facebook, and I can understand why many would not be cool with that.

the need for wires is really not such a big problem, what is a big problem is that even if you use wires, the rift s is still a bargain, allthough it's a pity they stepped away from constellation, otherwise I would have upgraded for the resolution.

Well that was before fb login became mandatory, but you can still block oculus service with a firewall to avoid datamining, and don't use that fb account for anything else.

and the quest 2 is really not that good for pcvr, even the wireless is lackluster. Wireless from vive is way better but idd, it's very pricey

also why did you post me on off topic forum to message you or follow you?

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#59  Edited By appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3359 Posts

@commander: You'll have to follow me to find out! I promise, no trickery.

Edit: or a PM I meant to say.

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commander

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#60 commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@appariti0n said:

@commander: You'll have to follow me to find out! I promise, no trickery.

Edit: or a PM I meant to say.

No offense but I really don't care lol

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appariti0n

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#61 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3359 Posts

@commander: I get it, I was kind of a jerk to you that time, no worries.

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#62 Eoten
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@commander said:
@eoten said:

One of the reasons I was thinking of buying a 6800XT was to drive a higher resolution next gen VR headset I was looking at that is 2160x2160 per eye. With eyes so close to the screen it's the only situation where I think 4K may have some actual value. That's $650 on top of $600 for a PC powered headset with inside-out tracking. That's a lot of money for something that doesn't have a lot of serious games on it yet, and will likely be an obsolete setup by time VR does.

Yeah well, you don't have to go all out to experience vr, a gtx 1070 will alraedy take you a long way, even a gtx 1060 will run most games.

Higher resolution is always nice, but if you're new to this, even an old dk2 will blow your mind, and the psvr for instance is extremy good at migitating the screen door effect, at a1080 p resolution.


My GPU now will run most games at 90fps+ at 1080P. It's when you get into higher resolutions though that driving them at high enough frames becomes an issue, and the headsets with the least issues when it comes to giving people headaches have the higher, harder to drive resolutions.

The VR headset I was looking at is the HP Reverb V2. It's not out yet, they are taking pre-orders, but it's 2160x2160 per eye, inside-out tracking which will suit me much better, and $600 isn't an unfair price for a next gen headset. 2160x2160 per eye (4320x2160) could also be ran at 2160x1080 with simple 2x integer upscaling as well so there is some flexibility with that unit.

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#63 commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@appariti0n said:

@commander: I get it, I was kind of a jerk to you that time, no worries.

who isn't a jerk here sometimes, I'm just not going to follow someone for no reason.

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#64 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3359 Posts

@commander: Well, it was just so I could tell you privately "sorry for being a jerk that one time" pretty much. So it doesn't really matter now.

You can't receive messages from anyone who you're not following currently.

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#65  Edited By schu
Member since 2003 • 10169 Posts

@commander said:
@schu said:
@commander said:

the biggest problem is that there ain't any real good headsets, there could be , the rift cv1 was a good headset, but the resolution is not good enough anymore.

Al this inside outside bs, and headsets that are way too heavy

Valve Index is solid. I wish it had a bigger FOV, but other than that it's fine.

it's way too heavy, it's 1.8 pound, that's a ridiculous weight for active vr. A headset needs to be light. My cv1 is almost half that.

But even if you can get around that , the knuckles controllers are over the top technology, and not needed but you pay for that. The wands on the other hand are simply crap controllers. The cv1 controllers are ergonomic, light and feel natural for most action needed in games, they are sturdy.

The rift s is light tho, but what's the point if you have sensorless tracking if you need to consider what patterns your room has, what lighting there is, the cv1 works in any condition. Now it has the same flaws wmr headsets have, not that it matters that much, since oculus is now a camera in your house run by facebook, that forces you to agreee to basically use any data from you, even what the camera's see...

In that sense we should be glad facebook doesn't realize which headset vr needs, and hopefully this time around sony does.

Because valve doesn't really get it either, it's a great thing they did with halflife alyx and steam vr in general but how are you gong to bring vr to the masses with 1000$ headsets. I mean the valve index should exists, but 144hz displays are not really necessary, nor perfect finger tracking

and it does make it heavier, and sure you can advocate all day how it is comfortable , for active vr it is not as comfortable as the lightweight headsets like the cv1.

and that comfort is a necessity for longer play sessions, I play skyrim vr for 4 hours straight, I could even do that with psvr, I could not do that with an index.

I can't say I agree with you. The weight doesn't bother me at all personally. I wouldn't complain if it weighed less, but for me it's a non issue. I also completely disagree about the controllers. They certainly can be better, but they open way more doors than the shitty wands of the past. I've played games for 4 hours very easily with the Index. Have you even tried it? I also disagree about the high refresh rate. Could it be 120? Sure, but I use a 144hz monitor for my regular monitor and I will literally never agree to go back to under 120 hz, especially considering the screen is literally right in front of your eyeballs. Anyways, I get your point that people care about different things and that's fine.

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#66  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@eoten said:
@commander said:

Yeah well, you don't have to go all out to experience vr, a gtx 1070 will alraedy take you a long way, even a gtx 1060 will run most games.

Higher resolution is always nice, but if you're new to this, even an old dk2 will blow your mind, and the psvr for instance is extremy good at migitating the screen door effect, at a1080 p resolution.

My GPU now will run most games at 90fps+ at 1080P. It's when you get into higher resolutions though that driving them at high enough frames becomes an issue, and the headsets with the least issues when it comes to giving people headaches have the higher, harder to drive resolutions.

The VR headset I was looking at is the HP Reverb V2. It's not out yet, they are taking pre-orders, but it's 2160x2160 per eye, inside-out tracking which will suit me much better, and $600 isn't an unfair price for a next gen headset. 2160x2160 per eye (4320x2160) could also be ran at 2160x1080 with simple 2x integer upscaling as well so there is some flexibility with that unit.

You don't have to run the headset at that resolution (this is also one of the highest resolution headsets)Of course you need to have something to work with but now you're shooting for the stars from the get go, that's really not a necessity.

It's not the resolution that will give you a headache, it's the size of the sweet spot, and that is where the image is the sharpest, not because of resolution but because of your eye alignment with the lenses (ipd). Apart from the rift s every headset has a manual slider for that.

You'd better look out of other variables, like tracking, the reverb uses I/O tracking, that's not as good as external tracking, and it's also not as user friendly imo since it really depends on lighting in the room and patterns in your room. With lighthouse tracking (index and vive) or constellation (cv1 oculus) there is no need for that.

of course if you're not looking for active vr, tracking is not that important.

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#67 commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@appariti0n said:

@commander: Well, it was just so I could tell you privately "sorry for being a jerk that one time" pretty much. So it doesn't really matter now.

You can't receive messages from anyone who you're not following currently.

lol that was a heated discussion, and looking back more fun than anything else, so I didn't have any grudges.

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#68  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@schu said:
@commander said:

it's way too heavy, it's 1.8 pound, that's a ridiculous weight for active vr. A headset needs to be light. My cv1 is almost half that.

But even if you can get around that , the knuckles controllers are over the top technology, and not needed but you pay for that. The wands on the other hand are simply crap controllers. The cv1 controllers are ergonomic, light and feel natural for most action needed in games, they are sturdy.

The rift s is light tho, but what's the point if you have sensorless tracking if you need to consider what patterns your room has, what lighting there is, the cv1 works in any condition. Now it has the same flaws wmr headsets have, not that it matters that much, since oculus is now a camera in your house run by facebook, that forces you to agreee to basically use any data from you, even what the camera's see...

In that sense we should be glad facebook doesn't realize which headset vr needs, and hopefully this time around sony does.

Because valve doesn't really get it either, it's a great thing they did with halflife alyx and steam vr in general but how are you gong to bring vr to the masses with 1000$ headsets. I mean the valve index should exists, but 144hz displays are not really necessary, nor perfect finger tracking

and it does make it heavier, and sure you can advocate all day how it is comfortable , for active vr it is not as comfortable as the lightweight headsets like the cv1.

and that comfort is a necessity for longer play sessions, I play skyrim vr for 4 hours straight, I could even do that with psvr, I could not do that with an index.

I can't say I agree with you. The weight doesn't bother me at all personally. I wouldn't complain if it weighed less, but for me it's a non issue. I also completely disagree about the controllers. They certainly can be better, but they open way more doors than the shitty wands of the past. I've played games for 4 hours very easily with the Index. Have you even tried it? I also disagree about the high refresh rate. Could it be 120? Sure, but I use a 144hz monitor for my regular monitor and I will literally never agree to go back to under 120 hz, especially considering the screen is literally right in front of your eyeballs. Anyways, I get your point that people care about different things and that's fine.

Yeah I can understand you find the knuckles way better than the wands, but the cv1 doesn't use any wands. I'm not saying the 1ste generation touch (who comes only with the cv1) is better than the knuckles, but they are lighter , and also very ergonomic. They also are a lot cheaper, which is good for everyone , since there would be much bigger adaptation.

Weight will obviously not be an issue for everyone (headset and/or controller) but it is for me, and i'm not the only one.

Obviously there should be room for something liek the valve index, but this only cater a very specific type of vr gamer and there aren't really any other options if you want external tracking.

Apparently no headset manufacturer realizes that a lightweight headset with external tracking (you could even make the sensors wireless), ergonomic controllers with basic functions, and various option for resolution and refresh rate will sell the best, because that is what an active vr user needs and a passive vr user also can use.

I just hope valve does us all a favor and makes an index light, and then I really mean light in terms of weight, features and possible even price, and same goes for the knuckles.

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#69 I_P_Daily  Online
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@commander said:
@i_p_daily said:

@davillain-: Im a VR realist, VR has been around for decades, and yet VR nutjobs try to tell you its still in its birthing phase or whatever. VR never took off because people simply don't care about it.

it's still in its birthing phase,

Stop reading after that because whatever you said is irrelevant after that.

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#70 commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@i_p_daily said:
@commander said:
@i_p_daily said:

@davillain-: Im a VR realist, VR has been around for decades, and yet VR nutjobs try to tell you its still in its birthing phase or whatever. VR never took off because people simply don't care about it.

it's still in its birthing phase,

Stop reading after that because whatever you said is irrelevant after that.

you're irrelevant in this discussion with your idiotic arguments you might as well say the earth is flat, it's just as ridiculous

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#71  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@appariti0n: besides , that discussion was also very educational. I know now that hyperthreading gives more performance than I initially thought (and I'll certainly never forget lol)

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#72 I_P_Daily  Online
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@commander: Man you VR nutjobs take this shit personally.

VR's been around for decades, no one cares about it enough for it to become mainstream, its niche like yourself, the sooner you guys realise this the sooner we can move on.

No point in mourning forever 😭😭😭

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appariti0n

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#73 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3359 Posts

@commander: glad to hear it :)

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#74  Edited By commander
Member since 2010 • 16049 Posts

@i_p_daily said:

@commander: Man you VR nutjobs take this shit personally.

VR's been around for decades, no one cares about it enough for it to become mainstream, its niche like yourself, the sooner you guys realise this the sooner we can move on.

No point in mourning forever 😭😭😭

I wasn't personal, I called your arguments idiotic, not you. Apparently you are under the impression that vr users think or want that vr replaces gaming on a screen.

It's never going to be that mainstream in our lifetime yet it does have a significant place in the market, why do you think the wii was so popular, why do you think microsoft made the kinect, and sony made move controllers. and that same tech is used with vr. You get a lot of the same customers here.

The industry has problems that are business related , not customer related.

The first one is facebook buying oculus, a lot of people don't like facebook when it comes to this tech then you have valve that only caters high end vr headsets, and the third most important factor is that consoles haven't really adapted yet, and they are the user friendly market.

They haven't adapted yet because the technology is relatively new, you talk about decades, but we didn't have the technology to make vr possible in the nineties and 2000's. Now we do, but let's not forget the psvr is already 5 years old, and it has a platform that can barely run this.

IT will be a whole different story with the ps5 and xbox series and also for pc, there will be no need for high end hardware to run this.

Look at 3d gaming when it first came up, sega and the snes tried to do it, yet the games were always kinda hit and miss, even with the playstation and the nintendo 64, it only really came popular with the ps2 , the golden years were x360 and ps3.

Obviously this will not have such an impact like 3d gaming, but it will not go away, why do you think facebook is investing so much in it, they want to be a major player in this, but this is very bad for the industry. There headsets are not made for gaming, they want to use it for datamining, and social vr, yet they throw so much money at it they make a lot harder for other manufacturers.