1080P was overrated in 2013 - 2016 and the powah should have been used other ways but for some reason it was all the rage especially if One system did 180P less than 1080P, mangy, the roof was blown off by those pointing that out daily making the biggest of big deal about it. Weird I know. Not sure what's changed? lolol :P
Certainly wasn't overrated, I played 1080p games on my PC at the time and wished my PS3 and Xbox360 could do that. When I got a PS4 my PC turned into a net-browsing-netflix-box.
@Jebus213 said:
I'm seeing @ronvalencia posts as nothing more then just spam at this point.
I skim right past em lol, they're ****** charts and links mostly.
Phffft, a sheep caring about graphics is doing it wrong. lolol :P
First I'm a cow, then I'm a sheep. Make up your mind already. PS, I do own all the current gen consoles ;)
Ps4 Pro gpu is like a underclocked RX480? And One X is what- a 480/580 with 4 extra CUs (why are people saying 1070 performance?), both with really weak CPUs. Neither can really do 4k well, but fake 4k at 30fps is probably easier than 1080p at 60.
@marcl18123: exactly. That's my issue when people call for 1080p60. The hardware isnt designed for high fps. Even if they wanted to they would struggle to hit a 60fps target on most games.
1080P was overrated in 2013 - 2016 and the powah should have been used other ways but for some reason it was all the rage especially if One system did 180P less than 1080P, mangy, the roof was blown off by those pointing that out daily making the biggest of big deal about it. Weird I know. Not sure what's changed? lolol :P
Certainly wasn't overrated, I played 1080p games on my PC at the time and wished my PS3 and Xbox360 could do that. When I got a PS4 my PC turned into a net-browsing-netflix-box.
@Jebus213 said:
I'm seeing @ronvalencia posts as nothing more then just spam at this point.
I skim right past em lol, they're ****** charts and links mostly.
Phffft, a sheep caring about graphics is doing it wrong. lolol :P
First I'm a cow, then I'm a sheep. Make up your mind already. PS, I do own all the current gen consoles ;)
I've never called you a cow. I have called you an MS/Xbox anti-fan and you had it coming. lol
Also, you know better, stating you own all systems doesn't mean you're not a bigger fan of one over the others. That's just a sheepish thing many do on SW. :P
Also you should know we all good bud, just some SW antics is all. :)
1080P was overrated in 2013 - 2016 and the powah should have been used other ways but for some reason it was all the rage especially if One system did 180P less than 1080P, mangy, the roof was blown off by those pointing that out daily making the biggest of big deal about it. Weird I know. Not sure what's changed? lolol :P
Certainly wasn't overrated, I played 1080p games on my PC at the time and wished my PS3 and Xbox360 could do that. When I got a PS4 my PC turned into a net-browsing-netflix-box.
@Jebus213 said:
I'm seeing @ronvalencia posts as nothing more then just spam at this point.
I skim right past em lol, they're ****** charts and links mostly.
Phffft, a sheep caring about graphics is doing it wrong. lolol :P
First I'm a cow, then I'm a sheep. Make up your mind already. PS, I do own all the current gen consoles ;)
I've never called you a cow. I have called you an MS/Xbox anti-fan and you had it coming. lol
Also, you know better, stating you own all systems doesn't mean you're not a bigger fan of one over the others. That's just a sheepish thing many do on SW. :P
Also you should know we all good bud, just some SW antics is all. :)
Yeah, I admit that I'm a bigger fan of Sony/Nintendo this gen, unlike last gen when Sony/MS were pretty much equal. Doesn't mean one can't enjoy some content from the not preferred company. Right now I'd really like to have a 4K bluray player :(
Lets face it this thread is made from a known Sony fanboy and the only reason the thread is made is because the PS4 can not hit true 4K. If the PS4 was able to do what the Xbox can do this thread would not have happened. Most Sony games do not have high FPS but they never cried about it till now.
His problem and all the Sony fans talking about this now is not that 4K is an issue but that Xbox does what the PS4 can not do.
So in a nutshell there is a lot of salty cows. I understand though since their games have piss poor gameplay and are only known for graphics but the Xbox is now not only the better graphic console but a far better graphic console. Xbox games have better gameplay and now far better graphics. Even the rare times they both have the same resolution the Xbox will have better shadows, better lighting, physics, and so on.
It is so funny watching the Sony fanboys move the goal post yet again.
I like what the consoles offer, ive never been into 30 vs 60fps. So i have no issue with Sony/MS going for 4k(ill be enjoying the benefits of xbox one x 1080p).
Understood where the article is coming from since the person is affluent with PC gaming and what they want. Me, just want to plug the console in and play games, been doing it since NES.
No but I think 4k should remain optional for consoles until it becomes the standard for households.
(Forgot I made this thread lol)
Options are always good but when you start talking more and more 4K on a console and trying to shove it down your throats then you are talking about how will the game play, it becomes an issue and sure, 4K is optional but NOT right now. Until 4K becomes mainstream and no struggles, this is sooo too early now into this gen.
I know the CPU's are terrible, but surely the Pro and One X could handle 60FPS at lower resolutions. 1080p with settings cranked up to ultra and high AA can still look fantastic. Add a higher frame-rate and it's a much more enjoyable experience all round.
@whalefish82: I know the CPU's are terrible, but surely the Pro and One X could handle 60FPS at lower resolutions.
No they couldn't!
To clear a few things up the CPU is the limiting factor (+the fact that it uses GDDR ram further limits the CPU) to be specific it's the single core performance that the main thread needs, no matter how much you drop the resolution most games just can't reach 60fps on that cpu (honestly its a miracle that they can even reach 30)
To the people wondering why they didn't use a different cpu that can handle 60fps:
They couldn't, ryzen was far from ready for semi-customs (and prolly still is), and intel doesn't do these type of semi-customs and they don't produce large enough gpu's.
The only hardware setup available at the PS4 pro's development (that could handle 60fps) would have been haswell (maybe broadwell) cpu's, something between the 4850HQ - 4610M and those cpu's cost between 350-450, and that would have needed to be paired with a dGpu equivalent to the RX 480 8gb (so 240+), and they could use the shared GDDR setup so they would have needed a few gigs of system ram, also on this setup it would be somewhat easier to run unsigned code and sony/ms think that we are all pirates so its a big no for them.
Or they could have compromised on form factor and efficiency and put it in a large case with a large heat sink/fan and ramped up the cpu's clockspeeds, but considering that its an APU with a large integrated gpu that we're talking about i doubt it could have reached high enough clockspeeds under full load to sustain 60fps, so they prolly would have needed to separate the gpu and cpu, and then maybe the GDDR system ram solution wouldn't have worked, +there's the cost of the larger heatsink and case.
so a 60fps console would have been 2x+ expensive as a pro, or slightly (+30%) more expensive (also somewhat slower then the intel one) and as bulky as a tower PC.
Both will be mainly FauxK which means using checkerboard or dynamic 4k which is not bad since the differences between FauxK and native are hard to see most of the time.
Lemmings thinking the X1X is going to do native 4k + 60fps are delusional. Some even say it's going to make 6k and be like a GTX1070. Poor fanboys, being the losers this gen affected them mentally.
Yes, they should have targeted 1600p 60fps or 2K 60fps because consoles are having a tough time reaching 4K at 60fps and to have development costs being lower than it is right now. Keep in mind that the Wipeout Collection can do native 4K 60fps on the PS4 Pro.
Ps4 Pro gpu is like a underclocked RX480? And One X is what- a 480/580 with 4 extra CUs (why are people saying 1070 performance?), both with really weak CPUs. Neither can really do 4k well, but fake 4k at 30fps is probably easier than 1080p at 60.
The PS4 Pro GPU is an underclocked RX470. The CPUs are limiting what the consoles can do.
The X1X will be doing 4k60 in a couple of years. Developers always get more efficient. That being said, I believe games would be more immersive with higher textures and poly count.
However, I find it ironic how much cows yelled about 900p vs 1080p, yet the importance of resolution is now reduced.
They are basically the PS3 and XBox 360 of 4k gaming. If you look at it that way, you won't be disappointed.
No, it's still disappointing because the games still perform basically the same only at a higher resolution.
It's not all Sony and MS fault however, the devs are the ones who decide their options since they are giving free reign to do what the want with the power of the systems.
At the very lease MS could mandate that all games have a 1080p 60fps mode because the power of the system should support it but maybe when the sales flounder a bit MS will get the motivation to require such things. That seems to be how this generation has played out so far.
The consumer's wallet was the deciding factor here. A Ryzen/Threadripper console would have been very costly, especially since AMD has to meet consumer demand on the part as it is, which would not only make the price for the technology high but keep it high well into the end of the console lifecycle.
There was never going to be a "True 4k Console". . . Not this side of 2020. The more people come to terms with this, the happier they will be.
It depends on the competition, AMD's designed Jaguar to beat (on pure performance) ARM Cortex A15/A57, Intel Atom "Bay Trail" and IBM PowerPC A2 (PPE successor) competition. At 28 nm process node, AMD designed Jaguar closer to Cortex A15's area size while beating it on pure performance.
The question should be asked, what's the best high performance embedded low cost CPU in 2019 to 2021?
AMD already has K12 with ARM v8 compatibility with subset Ryzen IP R&D blocks waiting in the wings.
AMD could have won game console contracts with lowest cost 2 for 1 deals against the mentioned competition.
AMD would be watching incoming AtariBox which has some association with Intel Capital (investment arm of Intel Corporation). Intel Skylake X is the larger X86 CPU over mainstream Kabylake X86 CPU.
Now I know how Juub1990 feels when Ron comes in, disturbing the peace :(
Only rookies fights with 32 ROPS vs 16 ROPS without factoring effective memory bandwidth.
GPU needs TMU memory bandwidth for serve data to shader ALUs. No data = shader ALU stalls. This is before hitting ROPS stage.
@Jebus213 said:
I'm seeing @ronvalencia posts as nothing more then just spam at this point.
Only rookies fights with 32 ROPS vs 16 ROPS without factoring effective memory bandwidth. I guess you haven't attended/read year 2014 GDC lectures.
Says the rookie who doesn't factor in 'real and accurate' bandwidth numbers in another thread....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
BTW, can you please go in to said thread and just your bandwidth to Tflop numbers so they represent a true and accurate number.
For PS4's GPU
~135 GB/s effective is for best scenario. Memory bandwidth efficiency from 176 GB/s is 76.7 percent.
~120 GBs effective is for 2nd best scenario with about 6 GB/s allocated for the CPU. The extra CPU data transfers to GPU can be carried by Fusion links.
For R9-290X Hawaii XT's 263 GB/s effective memory bandwidth efficiency from 320 GB/s is 82.1 percent. Notice both R9-290X and PS4 memory bandwidth efficiency is similar.
Your "Remember the PS4 176GB/s dropping 20% to 140GB/s because the CPU eats bandwidth desproportionaly?" conclusion is not correct since R9-290X is NOT obtaining the full theoretical 320 GB/s memory bandwidth. Both R9-290X and PS4 doesn't have DCC (delta color compression).
For RX-480 Polaris 10.
Before memory compression application, RX-480 's 194 GB/s effective memory bandwidth efficiency from 256 GB/s is 75.8 percent. Notice both RX-480 and PS4 memory bandwidth efficiency is similar.
Polaris Memory compression is 36 percent boost i.e. 264 / 194 = 1.36.
Using PS4's 2nd best scenario with 120 GB/s GPU and 6 GB/s CPU scaled to 326 GB/s physical memory bandwidth
120 / 176 = 68.1 percent from theoretical 176 GB/s.
(0.681 x 326 ) x 1.36 memory compression boost = 302.29 GB/s.
Using Hawaii XT's slightly higher memory efficiency of 82.1 percent which has an extra 7.04 percent over PS4's 76.7 percent.
68.1 percent + 7.04 percent= 75.14 percent
(0.7514 x 326 ) x 1.36 memory compression boost = 333 GB/s.
Now, custom changes for XBO's GCN version 1.1 GPU.
"On the GPU we added some compressed render target formats like our 6e4 [6 bit mantissa and 4 bits exponent per component] and 7e3 HDR float formats [where the 6e4 formats] that were very, very popular on Xbox 360, which instead of doing a 16-bit float per component 64bpp render target, you can do the equivalent with us using 32 bits - so we did a lot of focus on really maximising efficiency and utilisation of that ESRAM."
XBO's GPU has additional feature over other GCN version 1.1 e.g. 64 bits (FP16 bits per component) ---> compressed into 32 bits. Compression ratio is 2:1. This extra feature doesn't address XBO's shader ALU bound issues.
"For 4K assets, textures get larger and render targets get larger as well. This means a couple of things - you need more space, you need more bandwidth," explains Nick Baker. "The question though was how much? We'd hate to build this GPU and then end up having to be memory-starved. All the analysis that Andrew was talking about, we were able to look at the effect of different memory bandwidths, and it quickly led us to needing more than 300GB/s memory bandwidth. In the end we ended up choosing 326GB/s. On Scorpio we are using a 384-bit GDDR5 interface - that is 12 channels. Each channel is 32 bits, and then 6.8GHz on the signalling so you multiply those up and you get the 326GB/s."
My argument is not in conflict with 1st party Microsoft's claims..
@davillain-: They should have targeted 1080p/60 or maybe 2k/60. Whatever gives smoothest framerate. Whats the point of having sky high resolution if the fps is going to be crappy.
Oh its a bit faster and more expensive as the base model.
Oh that's it?
They can now retail it like this:
what's a xbx?
It's for if you have a 4k tv.
oh that makes sense.
@svaubel
They should just unlock settings and let people decide on what they want. A big problem i got with console gaming is motion blur is just uff, and low AF filtering. Let people buy your box and give control to the user.
@davillain-: They should have targeted 1080p/60 or maybe 2k/60. Whatever gives smoothest framerate. Whats the point of having sky high resolution if the fps is going to be crappy.
It's just like what Phil Spencer said, console gamers don't care about 60fps framerates at all. This is what the main problem with this gen, both Sony/MS have been focusing too much resolutions then framerates and both totally are now into 4K when it should be stability.
@davillain-: Sony and Microsoft are focusing on 4K because it's a marketing term. It's easier to use buzzwords like 4K than it is 1080p/60. 4K makes it sound like your machine is awesome even if it doesn't do native 4K for the majority of the games.
@SecretPolice: 1080P was overrated in 2013 - 2016 and the powah should have been used other ways but for some reason it was all the rage especially if One system did 180P less than 1080P, mangy, the roof was blown off by those pointing that out daily making the biggest of big deal about it. Weird I know. Not sure what's changed? lolol :P"
Funny huh? People wondering why these companies reacted to what the large talking points were. Who does that in business? LOL ?
Ps4 Pro gpu is like a underclocked RX480? And One X is what- a 480/580 with 4 extra CUs (why are people saying 1070 performance?), both with really weak CPUs. Neither can really do 4k well, but fake 4k at 30fps is probably easier than 1080p at 60.
The PS4 Pro GPU is an underclocked RX470. The CPUs are limiting what the consoles can do.
Isnt the only difference between the RX480 and the RX470, is that the latter has 4 CUs disabled for a total of 32, whereas the PS4 has a total of 36 CUs (double the ps4s 18). I agree that CPUs are a limitation of the consoles.
Unfortunately 60fps doesn't sell, but they have made a mistake because now 4k is minimum requirement next gen, which will be a waste of resources, so expect next gen 4k targeting 30fps once again.
Ps4 Pro gpu is like a underclocked RX480? And One X is what- a 480/580 with 4 extra CUs (why are people saying 1070 performance?), both with really weak CPUs. Neither can really do 4k well, but fake 4k at 30fps is probably easier than 1080p at 60.
The PS4 Pro GPU is an underclocked RX470. The CPUs are limiting what the consoles can do.
Isnt the only difference between the RX480 and the RX470, is that the latter has 4 CUs disabled for a total of 32, whereas the PS4 has a total of 36 CUs (double the ps4s 18). I agree that CPUs are a limitation of the consoles.
Between RX-470 vs PS4 Pro, it depends on the game e.g. For Tekken 7, both PS4 Pro and RX-470 has similar results.
RX-470 = 4.8 TFLOPS with 211 GB/s
RX-470D = 4.5 TFLOPS with 218 GB/s, East Asian SKU.
Oh its a bit faster and more expensive as the base model.
Oh that's it?
They can now retail it like this:
what's a xbx?
It's for if you have a 4k tv.
oh that makes sense.
@svaubel
They should just unlock settings and let people decide on what they want. A big problem i got with console gaming is motion blur is just uff, and low AF filtering. Let people buy your box and give control to the user.
@pinkanimal:Been here a long time,Ive only seen delusional, salty cows on this board, like you
Havent seen any lem get jelly over another console like you sad cows before. Lems arnt pathetic bitches like you sony dick guzzlers.
Look out! We got ourselves a angry fanboy over here! lol Chill dude, your seem to be overly invested on your plastic gf and it's getting into your lembrain.
Nothing like fake 4k at 20-30 fps for $700 every 4 years.
I didn't waste my money on PS4 or PS4 Pro.
Oh that's why you're always so salty and irrational, you're missing some of the best games this gen! You should upgrade to a newer software version so that you can play against superior PS4 gamers.
TBH, I believe 4k is fine. But, what developers should do [in case they make 4k resolution in their game] is the ability to choose from a lower resolution but with a higher framerate(1080p/60fps) or a higher resolution with a lower framerate(2160p/30fps).
Nothing like fake 4k at 20-30 fps for $700 every 4 years.
I didn't waste my money on PS4 or PS4 Pro.
Oh that's why you're always so salty and irrational, you're missing some of the best games this gen! You should upgrade to a newer software version so that you can play against superior PS4 gamers.
This is not personality wars, this is system wars. Again, your arguments are nothing burger.
Up to devs...but sadly most devs will do fake 4k with inconsistent framerate..its just how it is.....you know what's gonna happen in 9th gen right....8K!!!!...lol..can guarantee that will happen..then the console will be the same as now..most games can't natively reach 8K. The cycle continues.. :P
Rather have higher res textures, better models and visual effects than a bumped up res.
Yup good thing XB1X will do both. With the XB1X having an extra 4 Gigs of Ram giving 9 Gigs in total for games vs 5 Gigs total on other consoles we should be seeing every game on XB1X using higher Res Textures plus other added effects.
Rather have higher res textures, better models and visual effects than a bumped up res.
Yup good thing XB1X will do both. With the XB1X having an extra 4 Gigs of Ram giving 9 Gigs in total for games vs 5 Gigs total on other consoles we should be seeing every game on XB1X using higher Res Textures plus other added effects.
I'd much rather have improved graphical effects and a higher likelyhood of reaching 60fps with checkerboard 4k. The difference between checkerboard and 4k is tiny compared to previous up-scaling solutions. I think 4k checkerboard will probably be what most X1X devs opt for.
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