Inside Dev sources revelation on PS5 to XSX performance difference will make SW tech experts have a meltdown

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BoxRekt

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#251  Edited By BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

@Pedro said:

The exceptionally powerful SSD on the PlayStation 5 offers a new level of detail for each individual object as well as seamless loading of our expansiveness world.

SSD increases the level of detail for individual objects....LMAO

Now I got the tool @boxrekt to brag about a multi-platform looter-shooter game demoed on the PC.

What exactly are you laughing at? You think seamless loading is a joke?

Okay, It's best to show you in practice and put thing in perspective...straight from MS.

@24 seconds in....

Loading Video...

DAMN! Look at that NASTY TEXTURE POP-IN LMFAO!!!! 🤢 🤮

Haha 😂 "Bu but it's the same at Sony's SSD?"

And it's on a freaking shitty ass current gen Xbox one game at that! Hold that L

It's funny none of you magnify glasses xbots or PC fanboys pointed this shit out before now you're free to damage control uncompromised. lol

You tried to make fun of PS5 for seamlessly loading an entire open world setting a NEW game that actually has respectable graphics in an open world game, while the Xbox Series X is shown here not even able to fully load the crap textures of current gen State of Decay 2 without nasty POP-IN from a game made from the potato called the xbox one.

You just clowned yourself and all the people who tried to downplay Sony's SSD tech and helped to prove how PS5 is going to take a dump on Series X in ways people will actually SEE.

IN B4 XBOT AND PC FANBOY DAMAGE CONTROL!!!! 😆

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#252 phbz
Member since 2009 • 5643 Posts

Boxrekt is like Quack but after a severe meningitis.

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#253  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts
@tormentos said:
@Pedro said:

SSD increases the level of detail for individual objects....LMAO

Now I got the tool @boxrekt to brag about a multi-platform looter-shooter game demoed on the PC.

So this basically confirm that you are shotting from the holster.

Assets are huge now you can't load them at once into memory,you load them as you go and developers have to even guess what they need to load,which mean not all objects will be display in all its detail.

In fact havent you see some times that you see an object but it looks kind of fusy and when you aproach it gets sharper and more detailed?

But i find funny that you downplay what a developer of a game is saying,is not about increasing power what he is saying in what you quote,is about loading all HD textures in the fly instead of guessing what to load and have mixed results.

Before you try to outsmart your way out of your clear stupidity tell me how many games have you develop?😉

Without going into subpixel topics, rendered resolution pixel grid (e.g. 8,294,400 pixels from 4K display) is the ultimate limiter for displaying asset detail which may hide additional texture details, but when a player walks into a wall, you don't want the wall to be rendered as a texture filtered pixelated blur. The game should load the appropriate texture tiles and it should blend the texture switch.

Deep learning AI-based interpolation can reduce the need for static texture storage requirements i.e. combine interpolation procedural math processing with static texture assets.

Texture tiles can be cached ahead in memory.

Overdraw is wasteful and gaming PC wins at brute force arms race i.e. PC needs a "killer app" to trigger another "Crysis" driven PC hardware cycle.

From https://www.pcgamer.com/microsoft-wants-to-bring-back-flight-simulator-to-show-it-supports-pc/

Flight Simulator 2020 has 2 petabytes of geographical data that are used to seamlessly stitch together Earth. Microsoft already demonstrated a large world-scale simulator with 2 petabytes of geographical data. Azure Bing map team > Sony.

Microsoft is also using ForzaTech engine for story-driven RPG e.g. Forza Horizon 4 with D&D (Dungeons & Dragons) objects instead of cars.

----

PCs with 32 GB or 64 GB of system RAM, RTX 2080 GPU and suitable NVME SSD would do the job e.g. PC's 32 GB of RAM DDR4-3600 (raw 57.6 GB/s, not factoring in memory compressed texture formats) beats PCI-E 4.0 NVME SSD.

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#254 DrLostRib  Online
Member since 2017 • 5704 Posts
@boxrekt said:
@Pedro said:

The exceptionally powerful SSD on the PlayStation 5 offers a new level of detail for each individual object as well as seamless loading of our expansiveness world.

SSD increases the level of detail for individual objects....LMAO

Now I got the tool @boxrekt to brag about a multi-platform looter-shooter game demoed on the PC.

What exactly are you laughing at? You think seamless loading is a joke?

Okay, It's best to show you in practice and put thing in perspective...straight from MS.

@24 seconds in....

DAMN! Look at that NASTY TEXTURE POP-IN LMFAO!!!! 🤢 🤮

Haha 😂 "Bu but it's the same at Sony's SSD?"

And it's on a freaking shitty ass current gen Xbox one game at that! Hold that L

It's funny none of you magnify glasses xbots or PC fanboys pointed this shit out before now you're free to damage control uncompromised. lol

You tried to make fun of PS5 for seamlessly loading an entire open world setting a NEW game that actually has respectable graphics in an open world game, while the Xbox Series X is shown here not even able to fully load the crap textures of current gen State of Decay 2 without nasty POP-IN from a game made from the potato called the xbox one.

You just clowned yourself and all the people who tried to downplay Sony's SSD tech and helped to prove how PS5 is going to take a dump on Series X in ways people will actually SEE.

IN B4 XBOT AND PC FANBOY DAMAGE CONTROL!!!! 😆

What's the loading like of backwards compatible PS4 games on PS5?

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#255 BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@boxrekt said:

You jumped in with your superman cape on to defend MS and Pedro when I called MS out on "showing" their BS UE4 cinematic Hellbalde 2 trailer that had Pedro making a fool of himself calling it a "game".

After I provided proof it wasn't a "game" and just a cinematic UE4 demo that even amateur graphics artists can create...

THEN, you came in with your 😭"bu but what did Sony show?"

lol

I'm not confused about anything you just suck at being a fakeboy. Stop damage controlling so hard for MS and play your role as a loyal PC guy and you wont expose yourself so badly.

When Sony shows their games trust me I'll be more than willing to present anything they show that isn't just non-gameplay cinematics running at unplayable framerates.

UE4 cinematic Hellbalde 2 trailer rendered in real-time still a game. Level of detail (LOD) can change dramatically. Hint: the mesh shaders hype which is a hardware acclerated level of detail control.

Cut the bullshit, it's not a game at all. it's real-time engine cinematic full stop and nothing more.

Even the cinematic couldn't run over 24fps and was less than 4k. The only thing needed for that Hellblade 2 trailer was a art director and graphic designers.

In 2 to 4 years MS *might* come back with something that resembles what we see in that trailer (guerrilla Games did it with Killzone 2) for an actual game but that doesn't mean what was shown was any part of a game and it wasn't.

Do you even know what 24fps signifies? It's the same framerate the Hollywood uses to run MOVIES at...let that sink in.

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#256  Edited By DrLostRib  Online
Member since 2017 • 5704 Posts

I wonder how much angrier TC will get if he gets moderated for all his "xbots" shit

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#257 phbz
Member since 2009 • 5643 Posts

@drlostrib: He's banned regularly. We all know he's special. From time to time the doctors let him use the internet and it always ends with him going back to therapy.

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#258  Edited By BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

@drlostrib said:
@boxrekt said:

What exactly are you laughing at? You think seamless loading is a joke?

Okay, It's best to show you in practice and put thing in perspective...straight from MS.

@24 seconds in....

DAMN! Look at that NASTY TEXTURE POP-IN LMFAO!!!! 🤢 🤮

Haha 😂 "Bu but it's the same at Sony's SSD?"

***IN B4 XBOT AND PC FANBOY DAMAGE CONTROL!!!! ***😆

What's the loading like of backwards compatible PS4 games on PS5?

lol just as I predicted 🤭

Do you have a reading problem?

Stop asking for information already given to you just because you don't want to accept it the first time.

Again from a verified developer on PS5.

PSLS: What unique benefits are you getting by developing Godfall on next-generation hardware? Why make it a PS5 exclusive rather than a cross-gen release with PS4?

Keith Lee: The exceptionally powerful SSD on the PlayStation 5 offers a new level of detail for each individual object as well as seamless loading of our expansiveness world. Our combat is kinesthetic in nature, so the new controller’s “adaptive triggers” and haptic feedback will make moment-to-moment combat feel exhilarating and visceral.

"Seamless" that's you answer.

Don't like it? 🤷‍♂️ , go cry about it in the car.

Sony already confirmed instant loading with PS5 and here it is being reconfirmed by a 3rd party dev with an actual game.

You lose!

You tech rejects said Sony's SSD wouldn't matter NOW after seeing for yourself how Series X is a step behind Sony's more advanced solution you guys are desperately damage controlling looking for excuses to erase the advantage you said "didn't matter". No dice.

It's funny you basement PC dwellers ever tried pretending you guys know more about tech than Sony. They've only been on the bleeding edge of the newest hardware advancements in tech for the last 30 years.

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#259 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 39149 Posts

@tormentos said:

Before you try to outsmart your way out of your clear stupidity tell me how many games have you develop?😉

I have developed/published one personal game and currently in production on my second game. I have been working in game development and 3D for almost a decade with from mobile, consoles and PC both developing and teaching at the university level. This is literally what I do for a living. How about you?😉

So this basically confirm that you are shotting from the holster.

Assets are huge now you can't load them at once into memory,you load them as you go and developers have to even guess what they need to load,which mean not all objects will be display in all its detail.

In fact havent you see some times that you see an object but it looks kind of fusy and when you aproach it gets sharper and more detailed?

But i find funny that you downplay what a developer of a game is saying,is not about increasing power what he is saying in what you quote,is about loading all HD textures in the fly instead of guessing what to load and have mixed results.

LODs are used to reduce load on the GPU. LODs literally stands for level of detail. Varying level of details are loaded into the memory then you, the developer determines what level of detail should be should onscreen. Any responsible developer would not waste resources treating everything on the screen as equal. That is simply not efficient. This is like basic optimization.

@boxrekt You still don't know what the hell you are talking about but you are talking a lot. Its funny that you think the pop ins for State of Decay 2 is due to the SSD, then shows a video that counters your claim but you are too oblivious about the topic to realize. LOL

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#260 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@boxrekt said:
@ronvalencia said:

UE4 cinematic Hellbalde 2 trailer rendered in real-time still a game. Level of detail (LOD) can change dramatically. Hint: the mesh shaders hype which is a hardware acclerated level of detail control.

Cut the bullshit, it's not a game at all. it's real-time engine cinematic full stop and nothing more.

Even the cinematic couldn't run over 24fps and was less than 4k. The only thing needed for that Hellblade 2 trailer was a art director and graphic designers.

In 2 to 4 years MS *might* come back with something that resembles what we see in that trailer (guerrilla Games did it with Killzone 2) for an actual game but that doesn't mean what was shown was any part of a game and it wasn't.

Do you even know what 24fps signifies? It's the same framerate the Hollywood uses to run MOVIES at...let that sink in.

You cut the bullshit. For UE4, real-time engine cinematic and real-time gameplay is a matter of LODs i.e. stronger hardware can sustain higher LOD calculation processing.

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#261  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts
@boxrekt said:
@drlostrib said:

What's the loading like of backwards compatible PS4 games on PS5?

lol just as I predicted 🤭

Do you have a reading problem?

Stop asking for information already given to you just because you don't want to accept it the first time.

Again from a verified developer on PS5.

PSLS: What unique benefits are you getting by developing Godfall on next-generation hardware? Why make it a PS5 exclusive rather than a cross-gen release with PS4?

Keith Lee: The exceptionally powerful SSD on the PlayStation 5 offers a new level of detail for each individual object as well as seamless loading of our expansiveness world. Our combat is kinesthetic in nature, so the new controller’s “adaptive triggers” and haptic feedback will make moment-to-moment combat feel exhilarating and visceral.

Seamless" that's you answer.

Don't like it? 🤷‍♂️ , go cry about it in the car.

Sony already confirmed instant loading with PS5 and here it is being reconfirmed by a 3rd party dev with an actual game.

You tech rejects said Sony's SSD wouldn't matter NOW after seeing for yourself how Series X is a step behind Sony's more advanced solution you guys are desperately damage controlling looking for excuses to erase the advantage you said "didn't matter". No dice.

It's funny you basement PC dwellers ever tried pretending you guys know more about tech than Sony. They've only been on the bleeding edge of the newest hardware advancements in tech for the last oh 30 years.

Godfall is available on PCs.

The context is between PS4 vs PS5 i.e. "Why make it a PS5 exclusive rather than a cross-gen release with PS4?"

Unlike Sony, PC master race wasn't stupid enough to attach HDD to SATA-to-USB bridge.

If loading performance is needed tomorrow, I could put two 1TB NVME SSD in RAID 0. I'm still waiting for the "killer game app" to make the configuration change.

I'm waiting for Zen 3 that solves dual quad core CCX modules latency issue instead of Zen 2's large L3 cache workaround. Zen 3 is a native 8 core layout.

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#262 BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

@drlostrib said:

I wonder how much angrier TC will get if he gets moderated for all his "xbots" shit

You're clearly the one who's angry if you're worried about someone getting moderated. lol and now "xbot" is something to get modded over when fanboys like yourself use actual personal insults aimed at me? Yet I'm not crying about moderations lol.

Log TF off and grow some thicker skin if this makes you that pissy.

Or just spamming the flag button like a child, that probably suits your style better.

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#263 BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

@phbz said:

@drlostrib: He's banned regularly. We all know he's special. From time to time the doctors let him use the internet and it always ends with him going back to therapy.

False, along with most of the other lies and BS butthurt fanboys spew

You emotionally weak people always go off topic and try to make things personal when someone cripples you in arguments with facts.

There's nothing else for you guys here in this topic it seems as you've moved the argument from the consoles to the poster you fantasize about being banned LOL.

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#264  Edited By BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

@ronvalencia: @Pedro: Fight the good fight lems, but you guys sure are writing some checks that you probably won't be able to cash.

I'm glad Sony hasn't shown anything yet (they probably won't until after TLOU2 and maybe even as late as Ghots of Tsushima release because unlike MS, they still have current gen games and systems they can sell) it gives a chance for wanna be tech experts to act like they know more about hardware than Sony and make complete fools of themselves in the process.

I'm not tech expert either, but if Sony says they have a set up that will allow for 1 second loading, who is anyone on this board to question them?

lol What we do know for a fact is that MS sure as hell aren't doing that with Series X. 🤭 Texture pop-in on State of Decay 2.

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#265  Edited By bussinrounds
Member since 2009 • 3267 Posts

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#266  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@boxrekt:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/eaedvt/x570_pcie_gen4_nvme_raid_0/

Gigabyte X570 AORUS Master motherboard with two XPG Gammix S50 NVMe gen4 M.2 drive in RAID 0.

9.618 GB/s raw seq read. Not factoring D3D compressed texture formats.

The hardware upgrade being written-off as a business expense i.e. PC being a "business machine" is not a paperweight.

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#267 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 39149 Posts

@boxrekt: Your ignorance is delightful. I guess you also believed all those CGs videos Sony passed of as gameplay because... Sony said so. 🤭

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#268 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 30924 Posts

@Pedro:

Non but you quote a MAYOR DEVELOPER on talking about streaming assets fast and you wanted to put a fanboy spin as if he was talking about power.

This forum hold what ever crap you post and you are not the first one trying to pass as something that is not.

I don't believe you do that and considering how biased your arguments about the Xbox are even less.

Worse I also quote another basically implying the same thing,if you develop games for a living you would know that assets now specially for 4k are freaking huge,what he was saying make allot more sense that what you have been trying to push here.

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#269  Edited By tormentos
Member since 2003 • 30924 Posts

@boxrekt:

Pedro is simply blind by his love by MS,the fact alone that he try to miss interpret part of your quote from that developer says it all,now he claims he is a developer.lol

Worse I also quote another developer on this and he ignores it,fact is lemmings here are on board simply arent happy that the PS5 does something better,so power no longer fill them,already Ronvalencia was quoting sites talking about MS magic deccompresion system as some sort of secret weapon.

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#270 DrLostRib  Online
Member since 2017 • 5704 Posts

@boxrekt said:
@drlostrib said:
@boxrekt said:

What exactly are you laughing at? You think seamless loading is a joke?

Okay, It's best to show you in practice and put thing in perspective...straight from MS.

@24 seconds in....

DAMN! Look at that NASTY TEXTURE POP-IN LMFAO!!!! 🤢 🤮

Haha 😂 "Bu but it's the same at Sony's SSD?"

***IN B4 XBOT AND PC FANBOY DAMAGE CONTROL!!!! ***😆

What's the loading like of backwards compatible PS4 games on PS5?

lol just as I predicted 🤭

Do you have a reading problem?

Stop asking for information already given to you just because you don't want to accept it the first time.

Again from a verified developer on PS5.

PSLS: What unique benefits are you getting by developing Godfall on next-generation hardware? Why make it a PS5 exclusive rather than a cross-gen release with PS4?

Keith Lee: The exceptionally powerful SSD on the PlayStation 5 offers a new level of detail for each individual object as well as seamless loading of our expansiveness world. Our combat is kinesthetic in nature, so the new controller’s “adaptive triggers” and haptic feedback will make moment-to-moment combat feel exhilarating and visceral.

"Seamless" that's you answer.

Don't like it? 🤷‍♂️ , go cry about it in the car.

Sony already confirmed instant loading with PS5 and here it is being reconfirmed by a 3rd party dev with an actual game.

You lose!

You tech rejects said Sony's SSD wouldn't matter NOW after seeing for yourself how Series X is a step behind Sony's more advanced solution you guys are desperately damage controlling looking for excuses to erase the advantage you said "didn't matter". No dice.

It's funny you basement PC dwellers ever tried pretending you guys know more about tech than Sony. They've only been on the bleeding edge of the newest hardware advancements in tech for the last 30 years.

uh huh, did you read the question?

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#271 DrLostRib  Online
Member since 2017 • 5704 Posts

@boxrekt said:
@drlostrib said:

I wonder how much angrier TC will get if he gets moderated for all his "xbots" shit

You're clearly the one who's angry if you're worried about someone getting moderated. lol and now "xbot" is something to get modded over when fanboys like yourself use actual personal insults aimed at me? Yet I'm not crying about moderations lol.

Log TF off and grow some thicker skin if this makes you that pissy.

Or just spamming the flag button like a child, that probably suits your style better.

It's literally one of the examples in the stickied code of conduct

These terms are the only accepted ones in System Wars as far a defining factions go. Anything else (ie, xbots, sheens, etc) will be moderated

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#272 I_P_Daily
Member since 2015 • 16156 Posts

@drlostrib: Do you really want cash angry moderated? Banning him will lose us LOT of meltdowns from him and we won't get to laugh at him.

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#273 DrLostRib  Online
Member since 2017 • 5704 Posts

@i_p_daily said:

@drlostrib: Do you really want cash angry moderated? Banning him will lose us LOT of meltdowns from him and we won't get to laugh at him.

not banned. it's just fun to poke him

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#274  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 39149 Posts

@tormentos said:

@Pedro:

Non but you quote a MAYOR DEVELOPER on talking about streaming assets fast and you wanted to put a fanboy spin as if he was talking about power.

This forum hold what ever crap you post and you are not the first one trying to pass as something that is not.

I don't believe you do that and considering how biased your arguments about the Xbox are even less.

Worse I also quote another basically implying the same thing,if you develop games for a living you would know that assets now specially for 4k are freaking huge,what he was saying make allot more sense that what you have been trying to push here.

Who is this major developer you speak of?

Pass what of as something its not?

I don't care if you believe what I do, it doesn't change what I do for a living. You were anticipating that I would buckle at you claim that I have not developed a game or games. Now that you know that I do, your only fallback is to say that you don't believe me. Ask yourself, what would be the point of me lying about something like that?

Assets are not just textures. Assets are models, textures, shaders, animation, sound, logic and particle effects. You are trying to argue with me about something that is stupendously basic in computer graphics. All this time I thought you knew this shit, but I was wrong. You are eating up nonsensical drivel because of freaking brand loyalty.

SSD will reduce load times for games without any changes to the code. If you want games to seamless with absolutely NO LOADING you have to design the games for just that. I have repeated this to you so many times. For over 2 decades gaming has not prioritize loading and developers have been structuring their game with little to no consideration to load times. This is why we have such indiscriminate amount of loading in so many games. You can go as far back as Jak and Daxter, 19 years ago which sported a load free experience running on the PS2. Why? Because it was core to their design. The same would apply to next gen and SSD will reduce load times regardless of the design but it will still require developers to design their game for a load free experience.

Why you take this factual reality as a jab to Sony is beyond me.

EDIT:

Feel free to take a look at the processes a developer can undergo for no loading, first 16 minutes.

Loading Video...

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#275  Edited By ellos
Member since 2015 • 2262 Posts

@Pedro

I'm curious as a dev why you seem so indifferent to these ssds implementations. It seems genuine to Cerny claim that it was most requested by devs not just PR. They seem to really hate having to manage assets in the current way. They believe storage drive as the bottleneck. There is something genuine about spiderman for example with Insomniac wanting to balance speed and detail. Yes talking abut detail here does not mean ssd magically gives you detail. I think the meaning it can provide a way to maintain detail at some whatever speed spidey wanted to move. I don't know maybe its there incompetence but hey if tech can help why not. Of course they can design to the limitations but it seems like an annoying task and they don't want the result. Not every type of game can accomplish the same thing. I mean you can make a 120fps game on the switch but not BOTW (not say ssds will make BOTW 120fps btw). These guys went there way to build expensive flash controller IO processor whatever to make it happened.

It seems both of them think its a big deal to provide that to these devs. Yes howerver small and depend on the games there will be some difference. I'm not game developer but I'm a developer I can understand and aprreciate the logic. I hope something will come of it no need to be so jaded. Why so sets on your ways. I mean its an expensive PR shit if Sony, MS going out there way to not only put ssds and there but invest on getting rid of bottle necks.

I want to cheer on and hope devs think of something that is not clear maybe right now.

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ronvalencia

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#276  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@tormentos said:

@boxrekt:

Pedro is simply blind by his love by MS,the fact alone that he try to miss interpret part of your quote from that developer says it all,now he claims he is a developer.lol

Worse I also quote another developer on this and he ignores it,fact is lemmings here are on board simply arent happy that the PS5 does something better,so power no longer fill them,already Ronvalencia was quoting sites talking about MS magic deccompresion system as some sort of secret weapon.

I don't need MS to tell me LZ is a cheap compression.

Math: File to load / SSD IO / compression ratio.

For XSX, 2GB / 2.4 / 1.92= 0.43 seconds (general)

For XSX, 2GB / 2.4 / 2.5 = 0.33 seconds (textures target, BCpack's "more than 6GB/s")

For desktop PC** PCI-E 4.0 NVME RAID 0, 2GB / 9.8 = 0.20 seconds. Current desktop NVMe PCI 4.0 products seems to have 5GB/s read range.

For desktop PC** PCI-E 4.0 NVME design limit, 2GB / 7 = 0.28 seconds (non-RAID config)

**Not factoring any GpGPU decompression.

SSD is magnitude slower than GDDR6-14000 e.g.

XSX, 2 GB / 560 = 0.00356 seconds

PS5, 2 GB / 448 = 0.00446 seconds

RTX 2080 Super, 2GB / 496 = 0.00403seconds

RTX 2080 Ti, 2 / 616 = 0.00324seconds

---

With desktop CPU level's bandwdith consumption allocated e.g. 50 GB/s (similar to PC's 128-bit DDR4-3200's 51.2GB/s)

XSX, 2 GB / 510= 0.00392 seconds

PS5, 2 GB / 398‬ = 0.00502 seconds

Not factoring in memory BCx texture compression factors.

There's DCC IO from GPU for generated read/write results.

Notice I used Mark Cerny's argument as my own since I agree with his argument framework.

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#277 Dagubot
Member since 2020 • 211 Posts

@drlostrib said:
@boxrekt said:
@drlostrib said:

I wonder how much angrier TC will get if he gets moderated for all his "xbots" shit

You're clearly the one who's angry if you're worried about someone getting moderated. lol and now "xbot" is something to get modded over when fanboys like yourself use actual personal insults aimed at me? Yet I'm not crying about moderations lol.

Log TF off and grow some thicker skin if this makes you that pissy.

Or just spamming the flag button like a child, that probably suits your style better.

It's literally one of the examples in the stickied code of conduct

These terms are the only accepted ones in System Wars as far a defining factions go. Anything else (ie, xbots, sheens, etc) will be moderated

😂😂😂

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#278 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 39149 Posts

@ellos said:

@Pedro

I'm curious as a dev why you seem so indifferent to these ssds implementations. It seems genuine to Cerny claim that it was most requested by devs not just PR. They seem to really hate having to manage assets in the current way. They believe storage drive as the bottleneck. There is something genuine about spiderman for example with Insomniac wanting to balance speed and detail. Yes talking abut detail here does not mean ssd magically gives you detail. I think the meaning it can provide a way to maintain detail at some whatever speed spidey wanted to move. I don't know maybe its there incompetence but hey if tech can help why not. Of course they can design to the limitations but it seems like an annoying task and they don't want the result. Not every type of game can accomplish the same thing. I mean you can make a 120fps game on the switch but not BOTW (not say ssds will make BOTW 120fps btw). These guys went there way to build expensive flash controller IO processor whatever to make it happened.

It seems both of them think its a big deal to provide that to these devs. Yes howerver small and depend on the games there will be some difference. I'm not game developer but I'm a developer I can understand and aprreciate the logic. I hope something will come of it no need to be so jaded. Why so sets on your ways. I mean its an expensive PR shit if Sony, MS going out there way to not only put ssds and there but invest on getting rid of bottle necks.

I want to cheer on and hope devs think of something that is not clear maybe right now.

I am not sure how I am jaded. There are things SSDs offer and things its doesn't. SSDs are a great addition to consoles. However, there is a degree of falsehood that is being past around carelessly. SSDs as I have stated many times before will benefit load times regardless of "proper" utilization in the same way it benefits games right now on PCs and consoles. This claim that its going to increase details in the game and other weird stuff is just silliness. Faster transferring of game data into memory is a major pulse but we can't give it more credit than it deserves because all data in memory need to be processed(I am not referring to processing the data to go into memory). That processing is dependent on the CPU and GPU. You are a developer, you should know what I am talking about. Once you got your data in memory, the rest is up to the CPU and GPU to do its job.

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#279  Edited By ellos
Member since 2015 • 2262 Posts

@Pedro said:

I am not sure how I am jaded. There are things SSDs offer and things its doesn't. SSDs are a great addition to consoles. However, there is a degree of falsehood that is being past around carelessly. SSDs as I have stated many times before will benefit load times regardless of "proper" utilization in the same way it benefits games right now on PCs and consoles. This claim that its going to increase details in the game and other weird stuff is just silliness. Faster transferring of game data into memory is a major pulse but we can't give it more credit than it deserves because all data in memory need to be processed(I am not referring to processing the data to go into memory). That processing is dependent on the CPU and GPU. You are a developer, you should know what I am talking about. Once you got your data in memory, the rest is up to the CPU and GPU to do its job.

I think i can understand what your saying. Its not the storage and its relation to loading assets to memory that hold things back. The bottleneck is gpu cpu not strong enough anyways when given a higher quality assets to process. So its kinda mute if the system cant handle it to begin with. I'm not a game developer so I try to think what do they mean when they claim it will help with detail. So I ask do they mean the systeam gpu cpu in some cases is good enough. its the storage speed and having to manage memory that holds things back. Knowing its faster now, can they then load higher quality asset. The detail of whatever you get can be a bit better. Then as you say if gpu cpu not strong enough then all you gonna get is faster loading with similar lower quality asset. Again I'm not a game developer so my thinking goes to they are saying they are gimped with storage speed and its relation to memory management. They are having to reduce the asset size even for things that are obvious to the player. And of course I don't mean go on and make everything higher quality. That is just not the way.

A good thought example that I hope it makes sense. For those that play around with emulation legally for science. The awesome thing about emulation is texture repacks. The ability to play old games with with higher quality textures. On a 3ds emulator they offer 2 choices. Leave the textures on your hard drive or load it to memory at the start you opening the game. As you can tell leaving it on the hdd can cause some pauses while your playing. Or you literally see a pop in like effect, as it changes from old texture to the new repacked higher quality. Depending on the size it can be slow. Of course ssds help even current pc ssds. Loading it to memory when the emulator starts does as you would expect. The results are much better instantaneous you enjoy your new textures. These happen on the fly. The emulator ends up using lots of memory though. This is an over used use case as its an act of replacing I believe but I hope it can make sense of my thinking. You know more and I think I understand your reservations that things don't work that way.

erm these consoles could be neat if they start to emulate old systems for BC and let people enjoy custom texture repacks.

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#280  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 39149 Posts

@ellos said:

I think i can understand what your saying. Its not the storage and its relation to loading assets to memory that hold things back. The bottleneck is gpu cpu not strong enough anyways when given a higher quality assets to process. So its kinda mute if the system cant handle it to begin with. I'm not a game developer so I try to think what do they mean when they claim it will help with detail. So I ask do they mean the systeam gpu cpu in some cases is good enough. its the storage speed and having to manage memory that holds things back. Knowing its faster now, can they then load higher quality asset. The detail of whatever you get can be a bit better. Then as you say if gpu cpu not strong enough then all you gonna get is faster loading with similar lower quality asset. Again I'm not a game developer so my thinking goes to they are saying they are gimped with storage speed and its relation to memory management. They are having to reduce the asset size even for things that are obvious to the player. And of course I don't mean go on and make everything higher quality. That is just not the way.

A good thought example that I hope it makes sense. For those that play around with emulation legally for science. The awesome thing about emulation is texture repacks. The ability to play old games with with higher quality textures. On a 3ds emulator they offer 2 choices. Leave the textures on your hard drive or load it to memory at the start you opening the game. As you can tell leaving it on the hdd can cause some pauses while your playing. Or you literally see a pop in like effect, as it changes from old texture to the new repacked higher quality. Depending on the size it can be slow. Of course ssds help even current pc ssds. Loading it to memory when the emulator starts does as you would expect. The results are much better instantaneous you enjoy your new textures. These happen on the fly. The emulator ends up using lots of memory though. This is an over used use case as its an act of replacing I believe but I hope it can make sense of my thinking. You know more and I think I understand your reservations that things don't work that way.

erm there systems could be neat if they start to emulate old systems and let people enjoy texture repacks.

The good news is that overall loading of games and assets would move up notch with load times and framerate being the main seller. Its a win for everyone. I just hope that gamers place more pressure on developers to not be lazy and rely solely on the SSD for reducing load times. Time for game devs to rethink the way they build and design levels. With SSDs being standard that process should be much more manageable than ever before.

I would like to see more emulation on the newer hardware. It would be great if Sony allows for emulation of their previous generations. I also understand that they will run into the same hurdle as MS which is digital licensing if they want to make these older games available via emulation without the disc.

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#281 ellos
Member since 2015 • 2262 Posts

@Pedro:

I fear all we gonna get is smaller corridors and faster elevators that is all.

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#282 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 39149 Posts

@ellos said:

@Pedro:

I fear all we gonna get is smaller corridors and faster elevators that is all.

LOL. Good developers would always deliver more than smaller corridors and faster elevators. :)

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#283 phbz
Member since 2009 • 5643 Posts

@boxrekt: Dude you're having a meltdown since the Sony reveal. I'm not even contesting the power of the SSD, it's just the way you choose to communicate that makes you an easy target. You're an idiot, you being right or not is secondary.

You have an whole digital foundry video explaining the importance of SSDs moving forward. Yet you decide to pick an unoptimised game running in BC to exemplify the ability to jump between games almost instantaneously as your example to why MS SSD is inferior to Sony's. That just makes you sound like a crazy fanboy. Did you also believed when Sony said their games were going to be 4D?

Just try not to get banned because your meltdowns are the only thing going on around here not Corona related.

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#284  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@boxrekt: MS's demonstrated large game world-scale example.

Loading Video...
Loading Video...
  • Adaptive texture technology demonstration
  • Online mode texture stream
  • Offline mode texture stream
  • Local cache mode texture stream
  • Simulator: Planet Earth via Azure Bing map.

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 is effectively Forza Horizon for planes.

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#285 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@tormentos said:

@boxrekt:

Pedro is simply blind by his love by MS,the fact alone that he try to miss interpret part of your quote from that developer says it all,now he claims he is a developer.lol

Worse I also quote another developer on this and he ignores it,fact is lemmings here are on board simply arent happy that the PS5 does something better,so power no longer fill them,already Ronvalencia was quoting sites talking about MS magic deccompresion system as some sort of secret weapon.

Loading Video...

Sony: walking simulator

Xbox: flight simulator

MS is demonstrating a large scale game world with a target and it's called planet Earth. Azure and FS teams beat Sony.

FS2020 has 2 petabytes of data from Azure Bing maps.

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#286 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 35913 Posts

Mangy, this is almost hard to watch...

If "almost" means fun. lol :P

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#287  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@tormentos said:

@ronvalencia said:

@boxrekt: NAVI is not GCN.

AMD claims NAVI is designed for scalability.

7950 and 7870 have the same geometry input, rasterization(raster engine) and ROPS hardware. 7950 has the advantage of higher resolution performance.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-hd-7850-hd-7870/26.html

AMD can't afford to repeat Vega's scaling debacle when competing against multi SKU Turing let alone Ampere.

Based on 2-weeks raw Gears 5 port's built-in benchmark at PC Ultra settings, XSX GPU delivers RTX 2080 level results, hence it's RDNA 2 TFLOPS is scaling.

PS5 and XSX comparison is like overclocked RTX 2070 at 2230 Mhz (10.28 TFLOPS) with 448 GB/s bandwidth (best situation, CPU's memory access rates throttled with PS4 style mitigation) against MSI RTX 2080 Super Gaming X Trio with 12.155 TFLOPS with 496 GB/s (PC style brute force, CPU has PC style memory access rates)

And the PS5 and xbox are not Turin based or from Nvidia.

Neither the 3.5GB of slower meory can be use like killzone SF example because sony is not MS and Killzone is not from MS either.

So for some one who constantly use examples that don't represent the hardware in question,i say you look sad stating Navi isn't GCN.

Actually, RDNA's move towards wave32 compute length is influenced by NVIDIA CUDA's warp32 compute length (aka wave32 under Shader Model 6).

Many NVIDIA Gameworks shader programs are designed around CUDA shader size, hence gimped on GCN's wave64. This is one of many reasons why you see GPUs like RX Vega 56 with 10.54 TFLOPS getting rivaled by GTX 1070 with ~6.5 TFLOPS. API abstraction has limits and this is one of them.

AMD needs to be involved in the game's development process to create a game-ready driver with shader replacements.

NVIDIA's wave32 can easily support GCN's wave64, but not the other way around.

In GCN based game consoles, GCN wave64 shader consideration is built into the console market, but gaming PC is the largest single desktop gaming platform that needs the combine game consoles market to beat it.

Under RDNA v1, the move towards wave32 includes 7 clock cycle instruction retirement latency instead of 8 cycles with GCN wave64 which is about 12.5 percent perf/watt improvement.

Vega GCN has 12 clock cycle instruction retirement latency, hence RDNA v1 in GCN BC mode has 33% perf/watt improvement. This is how AMD partly builds it's 50% perf/watt improvements from the same 7nm process with Radeon VII.

RDNA v2 has further improvements with AMD claiming another 50% perf/watt improvements from RDNA v1 e.g. RDNA 2 being designed for higher clock speed and possible lower latency improvements.

The old Raja Koduri regime that relies on many wave64s to hide pipeline latency is over.

Many years ago, these major Terrascale and GCN compute issues are in the back of my mind when I compared it against NVIDIA CUDA.

NVIDIA's Maxwell v2 was the "Core 2 Duo" moment on AMD. Maxwell v1 was "Core Duo" warning to AMD.

I don't need MS when discussing gaming hardware.

NVIDIA is not Intel, hence it's harder to pull off a "Ryzen" style disruption for AMD.

TFLOPS comparison assumes 0 latencies when instruction retirement clock cycles are not factored in, hence they only useful within the same design family comparison.

Summary

  • AMD has tackled wave compute length format issues.
  • AMD has to tackle the instruction clock cycle retirement latency issue.
  • Renewed competition is a win for consumers.

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#288 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 30924 Posts

@Pedro:

Stop your bullshit there are plenty of games on PS4 that doesn't even load faster on ssd.

My God you are so stupid you can't even fallow your own arguments,werent you making fun about what the godfall developer say about the SSD when he call it powerful?

Didn't you take a shot of boxrekt?

What Sony is trying to do here is a little different that just a small loading inprovement,that has been very easy to see to everyone but lemmings,you even use games that basically are made for more than 100 HDD and SSD configurations and refuse to admit that it will have an impact,you argument vs mine is worthless this holiday we will see who was wrong and who was right,I already told you what I do if I am wrong.

But if I am right and Sony delivers boy it will be endless the fun making and constant quoting.

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#289 tormentos
Member since 2003 • 30924 Posts

@ronvalencia:

Oh my God you still holding to the magic cloud.🤣🤣🤣

Sony's walking simulation are 10 times better than MS flying one,good lock flying those 747 have fun.😁

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#290 sleepnsurf
Member since 2009 • 3471 Posts

Why is OP so butthurt? Yours is weaker and not fully BC this go around, suck it up ya stinking cow!

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ronvalencia

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#291  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@tormentos said:

@ronvalencia:

Oh my God you still holding to the magic cloud.🤣🤣🤣

Sony's walking simulation are 10 times better than MS flying one,good lock flying those 747 have fun.😁

Cloud gaming works i.e. it's called MMO. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

Local machine render (non-compressed pixels) with user interaction needs low latencies and "the cloud" is a poor fit with the requirement for low latencies.

Bashing XBO's cloud PR on the local rendering issue is your problem i.e. leave me out of it.

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#292 phbz
Member since 2009 • 5643 Posts

@sleepnsurf: I think having a mobile APU and substandard rtx made him collapse.

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#293 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts
@tormentos said:

@Pedro:

Stop your bullshit there are plenty of games on PS4 that doesn't even load faster on ssd.

My God you are so stupid you can't even fallow your own arguments,werent you making fun about what the godfall developer say about the SSD when he call it powerful?

Didn't you take a shot of boxrekt?

What Sony is trying to do here is a little different that just a small loading inprovement,that has been very easy to see to everyone but lemmings,you even use games that basically are made for more than 100 HDD and SSD configurations and refuse to admit that it will have an impact,you argument vs mine is worthless this holiday we will see who was wrong and who was right,I already told you what I do if I am wrong.

But if I am right and Sony delivers boy it will be endless the fun making and constant quoting.

PS4's Marvell designed southbridge and Genesys Logic GL3520 USB 3.0 Hub Controller says Hi

Jaguar CPU also says Hi.

-------

FYI, from https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/PlayStation+4+Teardown/19493

PS4 has 8 GB 258-bit GDDR5 and 2GB 16-bit DDR3 (cite ref 1). Sony spent 272 bit PCB board for PS4, LOL

272 bit 10 GB could be been concentrated for gaming.

Sony paid GDDR5-6000 parts with GDDR5-5500 config. LOL

Sony's focus is questionable.

Reference

1. https://www.arrow.com/en/products/k4b2g1646e-bck0/samsung-electronics

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#294  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 39149 Posts

@tormentos: Well, no one can say I didn't try to educate you on the topic. I am sorry that facts and reality are not to your liking and you allowed blind fanhood to get the best of you. Ah! well. 😌

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#295 kuu2
Member since 2005 • 11271 Posts

'The hard drive will save us.' -Sony Fan

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#296 BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

To lems desperate in this tread and trying to argue MS's Series X SSD only a few seconds slower or going to "do the same" as PS5, I'm going to destroy that argument completely with VIDEO evidence provided by Sony and MS!

Damage control this if you can lems but the difference is clear shown by GAMES running on Series X vs PS5, and it will address @drlostrib question about if instant loading for PS5 also applies to last gen PS4 games.

MS showing YOU what loading of a current gen game on Xbox Series X will be like...

Loading Video...

@24 seconds...in

You see that nasty texture pop-in?

And this is on an old ass indie level xbox one game nothing advanced or graphically impressive.

We've also seen this in other current gen games like PUBG with shitty textures popping-in all over the place because the system can't load them in fast enough crippling immersion of a game.

Loading Video...

Even with the SSD added here there was still sputtering, streaming delay and texture pop-in.

Seriex X still a LAST GEN texture pop-in issue and intermediate loading times of 8 to 15 seconds even on last gen games.

NOW Sony's SSD implementation of a current gen game!

Loading Video...

Your theories

Your speculation

Your self certified knowledge

Your slapped together PC configuration

< REAL WORLD RESULTS PRESENT BY THE CONSOLE MANUFACTURERS!

Now try to spin whatever narrative you can to counter what the console makers showed their systems actually doing. To make it worse Sony showed there's back in May 2019, almost a year ago.

That is exactly what Mark Cerny meant when he said PS5's SSD was next gen and texture loading would be a last gen experience PS5.

These are REAL WOLD RESULTS of the actual CONSOLES not baseless speculation or your off the shelf PC experiences!

#DealWithIt#XboxLastGenLoading#LastGenPop-in

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#297  Edited By BoxRekt
Member since 2019 • 2425 Posts

TL;DR

MS showing YOU what loading of a current gen game on Xbox Series X will be like...

Loading Video...

@24 seconds...in

You see that nasty texture pop-in?

Seriex X is still going to have LAST GEN texture pop-in issue and intermediate loading times of 8 to 15 seconds even on last gen games.

NOW Sony's SSD implementation of a current gen game!

Loading Video...

Virtually instant loading and texture streaming with no texture pop-in.

REAL WORLD RESULTS PRESENT BY THE CONSOLE MANUFACTURERS! >>> Whatever theory or speculation or experience you had on your off the shelf PC that you thought applied to what PS5 and Series X could do compared to each other.

#DealWithIt

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#299 DrLostRib  Online
Member since 2017 • 5704 Posts

lol, good lord

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#300 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 30219 Posts