How many polygons will be used in Next Gen character models?

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#1 Posted by mrmcygan (882 posts) -

So how many polygons do you think will be used in nextgen character models?

 

Most current gen models use around 15,000-25,000

Marcus Fenix, 20,195 in Gears of War 2

Isaac Clarke - 21,595

John Marston - 14,980

Nathan Drake's Hair - 4,000


PS2 games used around 5000

Jak - 4000 polygons


PS1 games used around 300

Tomb Raider
(Lara)
TR1 - 230
TRIII - 300

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#2 Posted by deactivated-59b71619573a1 (38222 posts) -

an 8GB GDDR5 amount of Polygons :cool:

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#3 Posted by lx_theo (6211 posts) -

42

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#4 Posted by AmnesiaHaze (5685 posts) -

982479824986243984327

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#5 Posted by Riadon2 (1598 posts) -

an 8GB GDDR5 amount of Polygons :cool:

seanmcloughlin

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#6 Posted by zarshack (9936 posts) -

I would say standard models will probably be around 30k and i mean that for just general games and not ones that try to push character models super far for those i would say maybe 50k. That's a complete guess though and i have nothing to back it up nor do i intend to argue the point so don't quote me on it.

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#7 Posted by wakefulness (3989 posts) -

Don't know abou poly's. 

 

But, there has recently been a lot of physicists publishing their works on hair and I think the fruits of their labor are being transplanted into games. 

 

 

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#8 Posted by naz99 (2871 posts) -

By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

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#9 Posted by Badosh (12770 posts) -
cazillions
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#10 Posted by jman1553 (1332 posts) -
I'd say it's safe to say it'll be 2-3 times the amount as this current generation. The leap from PS1 to PS2 was around 16x, and the leap from PS2 to PS3 was around 4x. I'd like to say it's no longer about polygons- it's about shading, accurate lighting, particle effects, and physics.
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#11 Posted by lundy86_4 (49096 posts) -

3ooo6t.jpg

.

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#12 Posted by CanYouDiglt (8232 posts) -
5 or 6
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#13 Posted by The_Game21x (26362 posts) -

A lot.

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#14 Posted by finalstar2007 (27942 posts) -

da fuq is a polygon?

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#15 Posted by clyde46 (49053 posts) -

da fuq is a polygon?

finalstar2007
And you call yourself a Cow.
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#16 Posted by StrongDeadlift (5496 posts) -

http://www.gamespot.com/news/naughty-dog-hiring-for-next-generation-6349023

http://www.lensoftruth.com/naughty-dog-hiring-artist-to-help-make-million-poly-models-game-ready/

http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93625

 

A new job listing at Naughty Dog for a character artist states the studio is seeking a person to help build "next-gen games." Additionally, the requisition says this person will be expected to make "million-poly models game-ready."

 

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#17 Posted by 15strong (2806 posts) -

By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

naz99

Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.

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#18 Posted by faizan_faizan (7869 posts) -
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=43975
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#19 Posted by finalstar2007 (27942 posts) -

[QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

da fuq is a polygon?

clyde46

And you call yourself a Cow.

Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff :P

seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time :P.. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be :P

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#20 Posted by Master_ShakeXXX (13361 posts) -

over 9000

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#21 Posted by Wiimotefan (4150 posts) -

It depends on too many factors really.  Type of game, type of camera, visual style, hero character, secondary character, random npc, clothing/armor, etc. etc...

I find that anything past 100k really starts diminishing unless you're going for extreme close ups.  At a distant camera like in most action games where you view the full figure of your character anything over 50k is overkill as normal maps can carry the detail very well in that range.

I doubt character geometry will see a huge boost tbh.  For close up lod's, yes they'll be heavy compared to what we have now, but in most situations they'll only see minor increases.

Texture res will likely double or quadruple though and when it comes to game models that is where all your details really come from.

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#22 Posted by goblaa (19304 posts) -

And the award for most pointless topic of the year goes to...this one!

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#23 Posted by ferret-gamer (17476 posts) -

[QUOTE="clyde46"][QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

da fuq is a polygon?

finalstar2007

And you call yourself a Cow.

Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff :P

seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time :P.. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be :P

A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.
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#24 Posted by faizan_faizan (7869 posts) -

[QUOTE="naz99"]

By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

15strong

Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.

Bump Map is sooooo last gen, And it looks ridiculous from a different angle, A polygon model would look the same from every angle, Also you should have said Normal Map instead of Bump Map.
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#25 Posted by Goyoshi12 (9687 posts) -

A lot.

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#26 Posted by Wiimotefan (4150 posts) -

[QUOTE="15strong"]

[QUOTE="naz99"]

By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

faizan_faizan

Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.

Bump Map is sooooo last gen, And it looks ridiculous from a different angle, A polygon model would look the same from every angle, Also you should have said Normal Map instead of Bump Map.

You're right, normals do carry most of the workload, but bump maps are still used in tandem with Normal maps.  Even in film when all your high res organic models are using displacements we still use normal maps and grey scale bump maps to achieve the final effect (along with displacements of course).

And honestly 100k still isnt very high.  Normal maps are still absolutely necessary even at that poly count.  In order to get details like pores, fine wrinkes and cross hatching in skin using pure geometry you would have to be working with at least 3 million polygons.

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#27 Posted by tagyhag (15874 posts) -
It won't matter too much. We're never going to see the progress of going from PS1 to PS2 polygons. 100,000 polygons will not look twice as good as 50,000 polygons.
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#28 Posted by Wiimotefan (4150 posts) -

It won't matter too much. We're never going to see the progress of going from PS1 to PS2 polygons. 100,000 polygons will not look twice as good as 50,000 polygons.tagyhag

Yeah the biggest jumps have been made.  In-game geometry does have room for improvement, but the returns are obviously diminished.  Animation, lighting and shaders are the areas that truly have room to impress going forward.

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#29 Posted by mariokart64fan (20741 posts) -

40k

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#30 Posted by cain006 (8625 posts) -

I'd say at least 10 bazillion.

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#31 Posted by deactivated-57d8401f17c55 (7221 posts) -

Not too much more than the amount in current gen models.

Any more is a complete waste, we actually have pretty good looking models on some PS3 and 360 games.

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#32 Posted by Heil68 (57960 posts) -
a million.
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#33 Posted by faizan_faizan (7869 posts) -
Near 50k.
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#34 Posted by deactivated-57d8401f17c55 (7221 posts) -

I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

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#35 Posted by finalstar2007 (27942 posts) -

[QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

[QUOTE="clyde46"] And you call yourself a Cow.ferret-gamer

Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff :P

seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time :P.. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be :P

A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.

triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

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#36 Posted by Wiimotefan (4150 posts) -

I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

Chozofication

Most models for the more "realistic" looking characters and creatures actually go well into the millions before being wrapped in a game res mesh.  This has been the workflow for about 8 years now.  Sculpt the model up to extreme detail so you know it looks good.  Then build a game res mesh around it and bake all the details down to texture maps.

And this workflow has become very efficient.  Its amazing what even a beginner can pull off like you said.  

And the good thing is that all these character and creature artists already have experience building models way beyond what gaming hardware can handle.  So they don't even have to learn anything new as the hardware gets better.

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#37 Posted by Wiimotefan (4150 posts) -

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"][QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

Im a gamer, i just game i dont care for the nerdy stuff :P

seriously sonys presentation when they talked about the specs i was like da fuq all this means da whole time :P.. till they showed UI and the games then im like thats how it should be :P

finalstar2007

A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.

triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

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#38 Posted by deactivated-57d8401f17c55 (7221 posts) -

[QUOTE="Chozofication"]

I think Kratos in GOW3 is around 20k poly's, so i'd say around 50k poly's is the most any model should ever be. 

Not too long ago I was reading a blog on a guy that's just starting in modeling and he made a 50k model, it looked kind of like the girl in Heavenly sword, anyways this 50k model from this beginner looked really really good.

Wiimotefan

Most models for the more "realistic" looking characters and creatures actually go well into the millions before being wrapped in a game res mesh.  This has been the workflow for about 8 years now.  Sculpt the model up to extreme detail so you know it looks good.  Then build a game res mesh around it and bake all the details down to texture maps.

And this workflow has become very efficient.  Its amazing what even a beginner can pull off like you said.  

And the good thing is that all these character and creature artists already have experience building models way beyond what gaming hardware can handle.  So they don't even have to learn anything new as the hardware gets better.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.  Most improvements in next gen games with regards to poly's will be NPC's and environment details, no more model grouping into a flat nasty texture on the ground.  Forget what the technique is called but man is it nasty. 

Games are going to have all the power they need from PS4 for the whole generation because of diminishing returns and how incredibly detailed they'll already look, i'm very excited.

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#39 Posted by faizan_faizan (7869 posts) -

[QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"] A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.Wiimotefan

triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

This.
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#40 Posted by JamDev (992 posts) -

[QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

[QUOTE="ferret-gamer"] A polygon is a shape, video games are usually built out of triangles, the TC was wondering how many triangles will be used to create the meshes for next generation character models.Wiimotefan

triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

Bit off topic, but are you a professional or a hobbyist? Reason I ask is that I used to do a bit of 3D modelling and it seemed pretty labour intensive to me. The options at the time for amateurs were things like Cinema 4D and 3ds Max neither of which exactly streamlined the process. Are any of the tools game developers and animators use available at the consumer level these days?

 

*Edit*

Just googled them and the same software's still being used, should change the question to has the workflow on these kind of modelling programmes improved significantly since 2004ish?

Was thinking about getting back into it, might play around with some of the free modelling software that's out there and see how things have changed :) 

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#41 Posted by Wiimotefan (4150 posts) -

[QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

[QUOTE="finalstar2007"]

triangles? wow.. good thing we got developers to make us these things

JamDev

Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

Bit off topic, but are you a professional or a hobbyist? Reason I ask is that I used to do a bit of 3D modelling and it seemed pretty labour intensive to me. The options at the time for amateurs were things like Cinema 4D and 3ds Max neither of which exactly streamlined the process. Are any of the tools game developers and animators use available at the consumer level these days?

Professional (just barely!)  I started messing around in 3d about 3 or 4 years back, but I've only been working in the industry for about a year now.  Still getting my feet wet of course.

Its all labour intensive, but its gotten much better even in the short amount of time I've been doing this stuff.  The modeling tools in 3ds Max have made some big strides especially in the 2010 release with the graphite modeling toolset.  Zbrush however, is taking things to exciting new heights constantly.  You can actually work up designs in 3d now.  Its that fast.  I heard C4D is actually doing some killer stuff as well, but I never used it.

Consumer level, I guess you mean pricing?  Blender is free and its very cool.  Every bit as good as these 3,000 dollar programs.  Zbrush is still around 700 dollars and is very much worth every penny.  Modo is quickly becoming one of the better programs around and is still in the 1000 dollar range.  They all offer trial versions and student versions as well.  Sign up with Autodesk student and you can download all their software for up to three years I believe.

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#42 Posted by k2theswiss (16599 posts) -

BDD_DR_evil_12.16.08.jpg

100 BILLION

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#43 Posted by HaloPimp978 (7329 posts) -

When you have 8GGDR just know its going to be epicness.

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#44 Posted by way2funny (4570 posts) -

Adding polygons to character models has hit diminishing returns, I wouldnt expect more than 2x that current gen

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#45 Posted by Pray_to_me (4041 posts) -

Around double or triple Crysis 3

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#46 Posted by JamDev (992 posts) -

[QUOTE="JamDev"][QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

Wiimotefan

Bit off topic, but are you a professional or a hobbyist? Reason I ask is that I used to do a bit of 3D modelling and it seemed pretty labour intensive to me. The options at the time for amateurs were things like Cinema 4D and 3ds Max neither of which exactly streamlined the process. Are any of the tools game developers and animators use available at the consumer level these days?

Professional (just barely!)  I started messing around in 3d about 3 or 4 years back, but I've only been working in the industry for about a year now.  Still getting my feet wet of course.

Its all labour intensive, but its gotten much better even in the short amount of time I've been doing this stuff.  The modeling tools in 3ds Max have made some big strides especially in the 2010 release with the graphite modeling toolset.  Zbrush however, is taking things to exciting new heights constantly.  You can actually work up designs in 3d now.  Its that fast.  I heard C4D is actually doing some killer stuff as well, but I never used it.

Consumer level, I guess you mean pricing?  Blender is free and its very cool.  Every bit as good as these 3,000 dollar programs.  Zbrush is still around 700 dollars and is very much worth every penny.  Modo is quickly becoming one of the better programs around and is still in the 1000 dollar range.  They all offer trial versions and student versions as well.  Sign up with Autodesk student and you can download all their software for up to three years I believe.

Cool thanks for the advice, I'll definitely check out Blender and see if I get the bug again before thinking about spending any money. Good to hear Zbrush is doing well, it was around in beta form when I was playing around with modelling. I had a trial version which was fun but fairly limited at the time, never felt I could produce anything useable with it but could see it had huge potential. Good luck with the modelling anyway, sounds like a fun way to make a living if you've got the patience and talent for it.
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#47 Posted by deactivated-57d8401f17c55 (7221 posts) -

[QUOTE="JamDev"][QUOTE="Wiimotefan"]

Its not as bad as it sounds.  It used to be f*cking miserable (long before I got into 3d modeling luckily), but these days we are spoiled.  Its still difficult, but the tools out there are just great.  Trust me, its not like some guy is out there building these models one triangle at a time lol.  That would be terrible!

Wiimotefan

Bit off topic, but are you a professional or a hobbyist? Reason I ask is that I used to do a bit of 3D modelling and it seemed pretty labour intensive to me. The options at the time for amateurs were things like Cinema 4D and 3ds Max neither of which exactly streamlined the process. Are any of the tools game developers and animators use available at the consumer level these days?

Professional (just barely!)  I started messing around in 3d about 3 or 4 years back, but I've only been working in the industry for about a year now.  Still getting my feet wet of course.

Its all labour intensive, but its gotten much better even in the short amount of time I've been doing this stuff.  The modeling tools in 3ds Max have made some big strides especially in the 2010 release with the graphite modeling toolset.  Zbrush however, is taking things to exciting new heights constantly.  You can actually work up designs in 3d now.  Its that fast.  I heard C4D is actually doing some killer stuff as well, but I never used it.

Consumer level, I guess you mean pricing?  Blender is free and its very cool.  Every bit as good as these 3,000 dollar programs.  Zbrush is still around 700 dollars and is very much worth every penny.  Modo is quickly becoming one of the better programs around and is still in the 1000 dollar range.  They all offer trial versions and student versions as well.  Sign up with Autodesk student and you can download all their software for up to three years I believe.

Where do you work, if you don't mind me asking?

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#48 Posted by naz99 (2871 posts) -

[QUOTE="naz99"]

By comparison Star citizens player models will have around 100,000 polygons

15strong

Excessive much. A normal or bump map would do the trick.

Not really,a bump map wouldn't work because they are wearing flight suits and have helmets,flight suits with tubing and other items woven into it.

Str-Citizen1.jpg

star_cit_featured.jpg

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#49 Posted by Wiimotefan (4150 posts) -

Where do you work, if you don't mind me asking?

Chozofication

I'll send you a PM.

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#50 Posted by PSdual_wielder (10646 posts) -

I think the most exciting part of all this is increasing texture resolution.  Going to something like 100k polys per character is just overkill.  For characters, polygon count is always higher in the face.  For body I'm guess the detail go to deformations first such as joints, and then wearable meshes such as deformable cloth and accessories.