Forbes:The Math Behind Xbox Game Pass Versus $70 Sony Games Will Snowball Quickly

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Ghost_of_Phobos

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#1 Ghost_of_Phobos
Member since 2020 • 2500 Posts

"If you were drinking every time you saw a game was coming “day one to Game Pass” at the Xbox Show yesterday, you would have been under the table by the end. It’s clear that Microsoft is slamming the accelerator on Game Pass, with or without a console attached to it... Sony, meanwhile, has taken the opposite path...increasing the price of their PS5 games from $60 to $70...$720 for Game Pass for six years of games, and then 24 $70 PS5 games, and that’s $1680, a gap of almost a thousand dollars. And of course, we’re ignoring that you’re not just getting 24 Xbox Series X games, but a ton of other games you can play that you probably wouldn’t have purchased otherwise.

Sony has mentioned they’re going to be doing things to make its own subscriptions, PS Now, PS Plus, more attractive, but that hasn’t borne fruit yet"

Full article

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/06/14/the-math-behind-xbox-game-pass-versus-70-sony-games-will-snowball-quickly/

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SolidGame_basic

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#2  Edited By SolidGame_basic
Member since 2003 • 32574 Posts

I noticed people seem to equate renting with ownership when it comes to taking about GamePass. It's just not the same thing. I've had games that I've kept for years and the value went above what I paid for.

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WonderWinner

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#3 WonderWinner
Member since 2021 • 1947 Posts

Another American news outlet making good news about an American company. 🥱🥱😴

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wandering_halls

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#4 wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

Dude, what is going on with this narrative. I mean, GP is fine, if that's your thing. But come on.

In one instance, you own the game.

In the other, you RENT the game.

How can a rental service beat ownership? They are two completely different things.

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shadyacshuns

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#5 shadyacshuns
Member since 2007 • 6730 Posts

Basically Sony is painting themselves in to a corner. Nobody is going to pay $70 for EVERY game they wanna play, period. With big multiplats going to GP on day one, most gamers are going to play those multiplat games on Series X/S.

That's exactly what I'll do too: just play exclusives on PS5 and play everything else on Series X, which makes Series X a main system and PS5 secondary by default.

This won't end well for Sony this gen.

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lhughey

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#6 lhughey
Member since 2006 • 4735 Posts

If I can rent a game for a fraction of owning, I'm renting all day, especially if the rental price includes hundreds of other games.

And if you really want to own it, then play it day one on GamePass, then purchase it several months later when the game is on sale. Paying $20-30 for a game that you want to keep on your shelf is always an option. But it's nice to have that option to decide if you want to pay to keep it after you've already played it.

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hardwenzen

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#7 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 11027 Posts

I usually buy most games i am interested day one. This is a first generation (on ps5 that is) that i simply don't. When the game cost me $105cad with taxes, i ask myself if i really want to play it this badly. If a game like Returnal was on a gamepass-like service, i would've already "rented" it for a month, beat it and move to Ratchet.

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Ghost_of_Phobos

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#8 Ghost_of_Phobos
Member since 2020 • 2500 Posts

@wandering_halls: Do you buy most music and video you consume? If you do so you're in the minority, if not why?

Particularly with people moving towards digital ownership is close to obsolete. It's nice to have the option to buy, but generally speaking people are choosing digital over physical and services are dominating. Music is there, movies and TV are there and games have been steadily moving towards it.

I get that you guys have to hate for the simple pleasure of it but look around you. The general public doesn't care about physical formats that continuously become obsolete and disposable.

To me, personally, is simple. I don't replay 99% of my games, online games are for the most part perishables. I have absolutely no reason to choose paying absurdly more for what effectively is the exact same experience. Which is, play the game, finish it, never touch it again. And the very small minority I do replay I'll still buy a physical copy super cheap later down the road.

It might not be for you but I think people who have ownership issues are becoming more and more a minority as you can see in the real world outside this obnoxious place.

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WonderWinner

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#9 WonderWinner
Member since 2021 • 1947 Posts

@shadyacshuns: "With big multiplats going to GP on day one"

🤣

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wandering_halls

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#10 wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@hardwenzen said:

I usually buy most games i am interested day one. This is a first generation (on ps5 that is) that i simply don't. When the game cost me $105cad with taxes, i ask myself if i really want to play it this badly. If a game like Returnal was on a gamepass-like service, i would've already "rented" it for a month, beat it and move to Ratchet.

Ironically enough, were it available the one game I could really see myself renting, if I hadn't already played it, is TLoU2. The game is great and all action-wise, but it has basically no replay value for me, and I wouldn't want to look at it sitting on my shelf.

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Djoffer123

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#11 Djoffer123
Member since 2016 • 1149 Posts

Wanted to insert a gif about the cow brigade are incoming, but I can see that I am already to late!😂😂😂

But yeah while Xbox needs some heavy hitters to compete directly with the PlayStation exclusive, gamepass is the bomb these days! I mean it has even started to get some serious third party AAA games on day one like back4blood which just looks incredible! If MS keeps this up the console war is going to be interesting to say the least the next couple of years!

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jcafcwbb

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#12 jcafcwbb
Member since 2015 • 331 Posts

The article assumes that Gamepass will stay at the same price for the six years. It also assumes that Playstation owners will pay $70 for every game they buy - which of course they will not.

There is also the fact there will be a number of games that GP subscribers will never play, will only play a hour or so of.

They also should confirm that the game developers will get fair recompense for being on GP. Developers have already complained that Xbox Games on Gold and PS Plus is not the best for them as some people - including me - will hold off buying a game and will wait to see if goes on these schemes.

This is the low standard of journalism that is endemic in the industry today.

I won't expect Forbes to do a well researched piece about the cost of these subscriptions to the game developers.

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jcafcwbb

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#13 jcafcwbb
Member since 2015 • 331 Posts

@shadyacshuns: Are you sure this method is the best for the developers and will help to ensure they make another game in the series?

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wandering_halls

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#14 wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@ghost_of_phobos said:

@wandering_halls: Do you buy most music and video you consume? If you do so you're in the minority, if not why?

Particularly with people moving towards digital ownership is close to obsolete. It's nice to have the option to buy, but generally speaking people are choosing digital over physical and services are dominating. Music is there, movies and TV are there and games have been steadily moving towards it.

I get that you guys have to hate for the simple pleasure of it but look around you. The general public doesn't care about physical formats that continuously become obsolete and disposable.

To me, personally, is simple. I don't replay 99% of my games, online games are for the most part perishables. I have absolutely no reason to choose paying absurdly more for what effectively is the exact same experience. Which is, play the game, finish it, never touch it again. And the very small minority I do replay I'll still buy a physical copy super cheap later down the road.

It might not be for you but I think people who have ownership issues are becoming more and more a minority as you can see in the real world outside this obnoxious place.

I do actually, yeah. I know it sounds crazy, lol, but I buy CDs, even. Just ordered the new Crypta CD the other day. I own all of my music and games, and movies/shows I love, etc. I pay artists and devs. I always have and always will, with maybe a few exceptions here and there. For what I'd term "lesser" content, I use Netflix for sure, though. I'm not against renting stuff sometimes.

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hardwenzen

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#15  Edited By hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 11027 Posts

@wandering_halls said:
@hardwenzen said:

I usually buy most games i am interested day one. This is a first generation (on ps5 that is) that i simply don't. When the game cost me $105cad with taxes, i ask myself if i really want to play it this badly. If a game like Returnal was on a gamepass-like service, i would've already "rented" it for a month, beat it and move to Ratchet.

Ironically enough, were it available the one game I could really see myself renting, if I hadn't already played it, is TLoU2. The game is great and all action-wise, but it has basically no replay value for me, and I wouldn't want to look at it sitting on my shelf.

There are a lot of games with poor or no replay value. All of these titles are perfectly suited for GP, unless you collect games in 2021.

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pyro1245

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#16 pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 7856 Posts

@wandering_halls said:

Dude, what is going on with this narrative. I mean, GP is fine, if that's your thing. But come on.

In one instance, you own the game.

In the other, you RENT the game.

How can a rental service beat ownership? They are two completely different things.

I don't think anyone is really confused about this.

You get access to a library of games you can play while you have a sub - much bigger than the pool of games than you would chose to BUY A LICENSE FOR.

I'm sitting here with at least $10,000 (rough estimate) worth of games I own a license for and will most likely never play again. Can you explain to me why I should have bought the license if I can get it via a sub for much cheaper?

Meanwhile I just put 15 hours into Ratchet & Clank and beat it. I paid $75 for the pleasure. That is exactly $5/hour. Not a big deal, but I sure would have rented it instead.

It's a very clear and understandable trade-off between buying a license and subscription-based services (not to mention you get a discount for games you actually want to buy a license for). A lot of people just don't agree with your economics, it seems. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Ghost_of_Phobos

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#17  Edited By Ghost_of_Phobos
Member since 2020 • 2500 Posts

@jcafcwbb: Regarding that, here's a Tweet from a developer

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shadyacshuns

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#18 shadyacshuns
Member since 2007 • 6730 Posts

I'm not going to name names, but I've heard certain cows say they buy a game, play it then sell it to Gamestop, so let's look at that wasteful cycle: $70 + tax = roughly $75, play the game then trade it in for around $30. You're essentially paying $45 to rent a single game. LOL!

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wandering_halls

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#19 wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@pyro1245 said:
@wandering_halls said:

Dude, what is going on with this narrative. I mean, GP is fine, if that's your thing. But come on.

In one instance, you own the game.

In the other, you RENT the game.

How can a rental service beat ownership? They are two completely different things.


I'm sitting here with at least $10,000 (rough estimate) worth of games I own a license for and will most likely never play again. Can you explain to me why I should have bought the license if I can get it via a sub for much cheaper?

If you'll never play them again, and are not a collector, then sure, renting is fine.

Personally speaking I mostly stick to games I'll want to play again at some point. On top of that, I tend to spend a loooong time on games, particularly RPGs. A rental service that cycles through games doesn't work for me in most instances. But I'm not against the service itself. GP is a pretty great deal as far as renting games goes.

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PurpleMan5000

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#20 PurpleMan5000
Member since 2011 • 10169 Posts

Multiplayer games are perfect for Gamepass. Their value will eventually drop to zero, anyway.

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Random_Matt

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#21 Random_Matt
Member since 2013 • 6309 Posts

Xbox going to win the gen, or some other variation has been told every gen. Xbox is mediocrity and always will be.

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Pedro

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#22 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 52909 Posts

Game ownership is highly overrated. The vast majority of the games in anyone's library is never going to be touched again. You pay a premium price for the comfort that if you want to play the game at anytime, it is available to you. That is it. You can lie to yourself that you frequently revisit the many games that you have collected over the past decade but you know that is not true.

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#23  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 52909 Posts
@pyro1245 said:

Meanwhile I just put 15 hours into Ratchet & Clank and beat it. I paid $75 for the pleasure. That is exactly $5/hour. Not a big deal, but I sure would have rented it instead.

I recently finished to but I got the game for $35. If I paid $80 for the deluxe version, I would have regret getting the game so soon. While, I enjoyed my time playing it, I am most likely not going to return the game since I am at 100% completion (not platinum).

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hardwenzen

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#24 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 11027 Posts

@shadyacshuns said:

I'm not going to name names, but I've heard certain cows say they buy a game, play it then sell it to Gamestop, so let's look at that wasteful cycle: $70 + tax = roughly $75, play the game then trade it in for around $30. You're essentially paying $45 to rent a single game. LOL!

Only scrubs sell their games to Gamestop. You can get way more on ebay or kijiji if you're in Canada.

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Archangel3371

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#25  Edited By Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 35578 Posts

Yeah, the value of Game Pass is definitely off the charts. I’m absolutely loving it myself. Too many games with too little time to play but that’s a good problem to have. 😅

I do recall Sony saying that they were considering how to make their own subscription services more attractive so it’ll be interesting to see what they do there.

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jcafcwbb

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#26 jcafcwbb
Member since 2015 • 331 Posts

@ghost_of_phobos: One developer does not speak for an entire industry.

That is why I asked has there been a proper study as to who gains and who loses.

The British Government is doing exactly the same thing with the music industry and the streaming services as it is quite clear that the big artists and the labels are cashing in whereas the smaller artists and the songwriters are not being fairly compensated for their work. They earn very little money for being on streaming services but it is also, paradoxically, bad for them not to be on the services.

I think that streaming services and the labels may be forced to pay the artists and songwriters more - as their greed has gone too far.

You can see the same level of greed from Sony and Microsoft and the bigger software labels and if the industry wants to thrive then some of that greed will have to be lessened and the money shared out - forcefully if necessary - more equally through the industry.

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drummerdave9099

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#27 drummerdave9099
Member since 2010 • 4573 Posts

@SolidGame_basic said:

I noticed people seem to equate renting with ownership when it comes to taking about GamePass. It's just not the same thing. I've had games that I've kept for years and the value went above what I paid for.

While that's absolutely true- if you buy a new game at full price I would say it loses about $10 in value immediately when you check out. And by now the vast majority of 8th gen games are worth $20 or less. There is potential for some or all of their value to come back. Hold onto your Mario and Pokemon games.

All that said, as a consumer I would 100/100 times rather rent the game for a fraction of the price and then purchase it down the road for much cheaper if I really liked. I'm not saying that helps the industry stay in business but it saves me a lot of $ and video game companies aren't a charity.

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jcafcwbb

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#28 jcafcwbb
Member since 2015 • 331 Posts

@Pedro: I pay premium price for the developers I want to support and see thrive. It is also the better way to ensure that they make another game.

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wandering_halls

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#29  Edited By wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@Pedro said:

Game ownership is highly overrated. The vast majority of the games in anyone's library is never going to be touched again.

That's simply not true for some people. Like me. I replay everything, pretty much, at some point. I think it's just part of my personality, though. I stick to games/game types I really love, and naturally am going to want to revisit them down the line.

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shadyacshuns

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#30 shadyacshuns
Member since 2007 • 6730 Posts

@jcafcwbb said:

@shadyacshuns: Are you sure this method is the best for the developers and will help to ensure they make another game in the series?

Think about it, if your game isn't a aaa mainstream title, how are you gonna get a lot of people to try your game? Heck, even some big titles suffer from under exposure. GP ensures that more people will try your game, and if it's good they'll probably buy the thing.

I'm playing Yakuza 7 Like a Dragon and am loving it, but if it weren't for GP I'd never have played the game, ever.

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drummerdave9099

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#31  Edited By drummerdave9099
Member since 2010 • 4573 Posts
@hardwenzen said:
@wandering_halls said:
@hardwenzen said:

I usually buy most games i am interested day one. This is a first generation (on ps5 that is) that i simply don't. When the game cost me $105cad with taxes, i ask myself if i really want to play it this badly. If a game like Returnal was on a gamepass-like service, i would've already "rented" it for a month, beat it and move to Ratchet.

Ironically enough, were it available the one game I could really see myself renting, if I hadn't already played it, is TLoU2. The game is great and all action-wise, but it has basically no replay value for me, and I wouldn't want to look at it sitting on my shelf.

There are a lot of games with poor or no replay value. All of these titles are perfectly suited for GP, unless you collect games in 2021.

You said it. When I got a used PS3 in 2014 I could not believe all the Uncharted games were $5 or less used.

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daredevils2k

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#32 daredevils2k
Member since 2015 • 3372 Posts

what I find funny is how Lemmins are defending MS for taking away games from GamePass.

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Ghost_of_Phobos

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#33 Ghost_of_Phobos
Member since 2020 • 2500 Posts

@jcafcwbb: Yes, I'll conduct a serious scientific study, a series of them through Universities across the globe, before deciding if $1680 is more or less than $720.

Better investigate if Housemarque got paid more after the Sony's price increase because they didn't even knew the game was going to be sold at $70. And hey maybe Sony will increase games to $100. We never know.

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shadyacshuns

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#34 shadyacshuns
Member since 2007 • 6730 Posts

@wandering_halls said:
@Pedro said:

Game ownership is highly overrated. The vast majority of the games in anyone's library is never going to be touched again.

That's simply not true for some people. Like me. I replay everything, pretty much, at some point. I think it's just part of my personality, though. I stick to games I really love, and naturally am going to want to revisit them down the line.

I also collect and replay games consistently. Renting leads to ownership, because buying video games without knowing what you're getting in some cases, is anti-consumer, but renting allows you to see what you might pay for, or toss back and move on.

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Pedro

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#35 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 52909 Posts

@wandering_halls said:
@Pedro said:

Game ownership is highly overrated. The vast majority of the games in anyone's library is never going to be touched again.

That's simply not true for some people. Like me. I replay everything, pretty much, at some point. I think it's just part of my personality, though. I stick to games I really love, and naturally am going to want to revisit them down the line.

Note, that I stated that the majority of the games in your library will go untouched. If you have a very small library of games, you may not fall into the minority of gamers that revisit most of the games they own.

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wandering_halls

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#36 wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@shadyacshuns said:
@wandering_halls said:
@Pedro said:

Game ownership is highly overrated. The vast majority of the games in anyone's library is never going to be touched again.

That's simply not true for some people. Like me. I replay everything, pretty much, at some point. I think it's just part of my personality, though. I stick to games I really love, and naturally am going to want to revisit them down the line.

I also collect and replay games consistently. Renting leads to ownership, because buying video games without knowing what you're getting in some cases, is anti-consumer, but renting allows you to see what you might pay for, or toss back and move on.

Good to hear from someone that buys and replays. As I was telling Pedro--we do exist!

As for renting leading to ownership, absolutely. That is one really good aspect of GP, I think. GP is a great as trial service.

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hardwenzen

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#37 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 11027 Posts

I wonder how the devs are being paid with GP. Do they get $ for each download? If so, how much do they get? I think its great for niche titles like Yakuza, cuz otherwise way less people would try/play them, but i just don't see this being more profitable than a AAA sold for $60. If the devs wanted to print as much money as possible, they would release the game for $60 for the first two to three months, then put their games on GP when the sales slow down. Of course this would only apply to AAA/popular titles.

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Pedro

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#38 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 52909 Posts
@jcafcwbb said:

@Pedro: I pay premium price for the developers I want to support and see thrive. It is also the better way to ensure that they make another game.

With services like GamePass, you have the opportunity to the support the developer twice. One by playing it through Gamepass or service similar and by purchasing. The purchase option is always on the table for gamers who want to ensure that the developer gets their support.

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wandering_halls

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#39 wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@Pedro said:
@wandering_halls said:
@Pedro said:

Game ownership is highly overrated. The vast majority of the games in anyone's library is never going to be touched again.

That's simply not true for some people. Like me. I replay everything, pretty much, at some point. I think it's just part of my personality, though. I stick to games I really love, and naturally am going to want to revisit them down the line.

Note, that I stated that the majority of the games in your library will go untouched. If you have a very small library of games, you may not fall into the minority of gamers that revisit most of the games they own.

I have thousands of games.

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shadyacshuns

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#40 shadyacshuns
Member since 2007 • 6730 Posts

@wandering_halls: I used to sub to GameFly for that, and it was such a pain in the ass waiting for games to arrive in the mail, or worse: waiting for games in my queque to be shipped to me. And then I also had to worry about games being lost in the mail (that happened to me several times) or being damaged and unplayable.

After using GP, I'd never go back to GF.

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wandering_halls

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#41 wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@shadyacshuns said:

@wandering_halls: I used to sub to GameFly for that, and it was such a pain in the ass waiting for games to arrive in the mail, or worse: waiting for games in my queque to be shipped to me. And then I also had to worry about games being lost in the mail (that happened to me several times) or being damaged and unplayable.

After using GP, I'd never go back to GF.

I totally agree. On a related note, I hate waiting for Netflix discs. I own the movies I love, but rent ones I don't wish to own. Waiting on the mail sucks.

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Ibacai

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#42 Ibacai
Member since 2006 • 14136 Posts

It all boils down to whether you collect, share (physical), or just want to “own” a game. The value for GamePass is undeniable and they have been getting more quality titles as of late.

And while I pay for GamePass I don’t use it much currently. I think I’ll be hitting up Yakuza Like a Dragon though. It really just comes down to personal preference. I think I’d be much happier paying for GamePass if there were Sony or Nintendo games available.

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sealionact

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#43 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 7368 Posts

@wandering_halls: Why do you need to own the game, when you can play it through ten times when renting? Some games that I’ve bought - like the battlefield games - have given me thousands of hours of joy. Others - like COD - have been replayed twice at most and I’ve been done with them in a couple of days.

What possible incentive is there for me to invest 70 bucks in a one and done sp game when I can finish probably 10 - 15 sp games in à Month when renting for 15 bucks? None of Sony’s games have any type of mp to speak of, and very few have any type of replayablility. I’d much rather rent the games out on gp than spend 70 bucks on a game that I’ll probably never play again.

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sealionact

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#44 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 7368 Posts

@daredevils2k: What on earth are you talking about this time?

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Archangel3371

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#45 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 35578 Posts

I think Game Pass is also just a really good way to get people to try out games they might not have noticed or been willing to try otherwise.

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ZeroTheHero

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#46  Edited By ZeroTheHero
Member since 2021 • 479 Posts

Let's face it most gamers are dumb they will just buy whatever looks fun. We aren't mathematicians or investors trying to make the most money or save the most from our hobby. We are enthusiasts MATH MEANS NOTHING PRICE MEANS NOTHING. LET THEM TAKE EVERYTHING! THIS IS GAMERS!

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#47  Edited By wandering_halls
Member since 2021 • 1221 Posts

@sealionact said:

@wandering_halls: Why do you need to own the game, when you can play it through ten times when renting?

As I was telling Pedro, I return to the games I own. And I own a ton of games. Thing is, I don't replay usually (not always) until a while later, sometimes years. Lately I've been going through a bunch of games I played as a kid. Renting obviously doesn't work for me in this case. This is mostly why I prefer to own.

Again, though, I'm not against GP, or renting in general. GP is a great service.

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simple-facts

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#48 simple-facts
Member since 2021 • 263 Posts

Gamepass is killing it.

I don't see many tweets to sony from fakestation gamers saying they don't want a similar service because they would rather pay full price,fact is if phoney said they would copy Microsoft cows would rejoice

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shadyacshuns

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#49 shadyacshuns
Member since 2007 • 6730 Posts

@sealionact: I can't speak for wandering_halls, but for me personally, I collect niche Japanese games and replay them from time to time. Those games are hard to find and tend to go up in price, and some of them have no digital versions.

As for more modern titles, yeah I agree that some of them aren't even collectible. I've also gone totally digital for Xbox, but with Nintendo and Sony I still go physical most of the time, because even today, their niche titles will become rare because Japanese publishers don't put out many copies, and they are soon bought up by consumers are rarely enter the reseller markets.

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Pedro

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#50 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 52909 Posts

@wandering_halls said:

I have thousands of games.

I you revisit the majority of those thousands of games?