EA did it again; Apex lootbox outrage

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#1 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
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Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-08-17-respawn-admits-we-broke-our-promise-with-apex-legends-gbp136-loot-box-axe

Respawn promised at Apex Legend's launch that microtransactions would be obtainable in multiple ways (lootboxes or crafting or individually etc.)

They reneged on that in their new event by making items only obtainable through buying lootboxes. It will cost you $170 to get every item from the event. Fans were not happy.

An employee at Respawn recently apologized and said they've learned from their mistake. The skins will now be purchaseable separately through a rotation schedule.

Interesting how many times these devs need to "learn their lesson" and then follow up with another false promise. Everything EA touches turns to shit. Unfortunately, that doesn't hold true monetarily as the event is a big success and they're raking in the cash.

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Heirren

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#2 Heirren
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

Stop complaining. Just dont buy the game. Simple, right?

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#3  Edited By deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@heirren: Apex Legends is a free to play game. Regardless, what you purport is a very bad solution to this problem because it is incomplete. You should exercise your free speech to be an advocate for change while following through yourself. There is no reason why one cannot do both. For example, there was no progress made regarding lootboxes until the Battlefront outrage which caught mass media's attention. History is not on your side, a majority of social change movements were not silent.

If it bothers you, then you're free to not participate in these sorts of things.

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DaVillain-

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#4 DaVillain-  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 40625 Posts

Saw Angry Joe vid few days about it and it's a good thing I don't even like Apex Legends at all. I tried to get into it and I couldn't stay for less then 20 minutes.

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#5 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@davillain-: Angry Joe takes it a little too far imo but I'm happy that there are people like him spreading awareness. I liked Apex but it got old fast.

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#6  Edited By my_user_name
Member since 2019 • 94 Posts

I was thinking maybe they would do a little bit of an apology tour after all the backlash to BF2 and Anthem to try and build up a little good will....

Silly me

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#7 AJStyles
Member since 2018 • 1390 Posts

Meh.

Don’t buy loot boxes and don’t play games with them if it bothers you so much.

There is so many awesome games available in today’s world. You don’t have to play any of EA’s games. Play something else.

Tell others to do the same. Speak with your wallet. Laugh at the idiots who waste their money on skins and stuff.

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Heirren

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#8 Heirren
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

@XVision84:

Wow, what a true addiction lol.

I dont know where to start. Kids are crying that a free game they are addicted to has monetary items? That whole free to play model; what is it they ask for access to your phone so they make money through adverts or sell your info in some shape or form?

I did play Trials Frontier and tbh its pretty good. At no point did i ever feel obligated to buy anything, and it made me wonder how the developers/publishers were making money at all, because i couldnt find a reason anyone would feel the need to put any money into the game. There was the *occassional* ad that would play, though

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#9 sakaiXx
Member since 2013 • 7115 Posts

Be like me I dont play any battle royale games, I have nothing to complain.

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#10 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
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@heirren: Dota 2 is a free to play game that makes Valve hundreds of millions of dollars yearly. Its monetization practices are not this absurd. Just because a game is free to play, it doesn't mean its community members cannot voice their concerns over greedy practices. Nor does it mean the company must stoop this low to make money.

That's great, but you are not representative of everyone else. If you want todays kids (aka your future work force) to make wiser decisions with money and avoid addiction to predatory games then you need to speak up.

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Heirren

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#11 Heirren
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

@XVision84:

I did. STOP playing it or dont buy it. And it really is that simple. That is the most effective form of speaking up in the games industry.

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#12  Edited By deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@heirren: It is not. You would be correct if everyone did that too. Clearly that isn't happening, so that method is incomplete.

There is a reason why advocacy exists and social movements have leaders like martin luther king. Change doesn't come easy and people need a voice. The degree of freedom you have today wasn't granted by people living according to what they believe individually, it was fought for.

You can choose to let others speak for you while you follow your rules, but don't pretend it's that easy. You're just passing on the responsibility to someone else.

As I said, there's a reason why lootboxes didn't face much resistance until it gained public traction. And that isn't because people suddenly developed the self control to stop buying lootboxes.

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Pedro

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#13 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 37210 Posts

This is a gamer problem more than an EA is evil just cause. Companies push as far as gamers facilitate. If gamers weren't supporting it, these things wouldn't happen but they are whether its due to not caring about negative effect or too weak to resist. In the end it doesn't really matter because the masses control the market.

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#14 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@Pedro: Agreed. EA is just pursuing profit, although their complete lack of social responsibility or regard for their customers is offputting. They do not need to be a "good" company, but you also don't need to be a good person. Companies (just like people) can always be worse, it doesn't mean they should.

Masses controlling the market is great since it's just a matter of getting everyone behind resisting these practices.

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#15 Fedor
Member since 2015 • 6015 Posts

EA is anti consumer and they lie, nothing new. Good thing is they have had a terrible last couple of years so maybe people are finally waking up.

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#16 R4gn4r0k
Member since 2004 • 32654 Posts

EA and Activision are both really scummy in the way that they implement these kind of "greed tactics" after the game has been reviewed and rated by the appropriate instances.

"Our game has no gambling

One week later: "Our game now has 800 dollar in game items"

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#17 Heirren
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@XVision84 said:

@heirren: It is not. You would be correct if everyone did that too. Clearly that isn't happening, so that method is incomplete.

There is a reason why advocacy exists and social movements have leaders like martin luther king. Change doesn't come easy and people need a voice. The degree of freedom you have today wasn't granted by people living according to what they believe individually, it was fought for.

You can choose to let others speak for you while you follow your rules, but don't pretend it's that easy. You're just passing on the responsibility to someone else.

As I said, there's a reason why lootboxes didn't face much resistance until it gained public traction. And that isn't because people suddenly developed the self control to stop buying lootboxes.

Lol are you seriously comparing MLK to the videogames industry and loot boxes? Cmon now. One is human rights, the other is a product. I hate to break it to you but it really is as simple as i said; dont play it or dont buy it. The entire reason the industry has changed to be this way is *because* people slowly bought into it. As long as consumer buy into it, developers will continue to push the envelop as to what is acceptable.

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#18  Edited By 2Chalupas
Member since 2009 • 7147 Posts

I give developers a bit more leeway on the microtransaction front when it's a "free to play" game, I mean the game is free, they have to make $$$ on it somehow. They can do all the season pass and DLC stuff they want on a free game and it doesn't bother me, so long as people keep interest and are willing to buy piecemeal content, that's the way it's supposed to work. Make a good product, earn revenues from that product. The nickle and dime nonsense only bothers me a bit on full priced games, it should never be intrusive or break into the core gameplay on a game you already paid for - that's where they cross the line.

But the loot box/gambling stuff is something entirely different. Very trashy revenue source, and quite frankly should be illegal/regulated since the target audience is children and it's very clearly gambling. EA can go to hell with their lies.

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#19 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
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@heirren: Yes I am comparing the two and any other form of social change in any area of life. Just because they are of differing degrees of significance, it doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. If you would like to disprove it then argue the logic, "c'mon now" isn't an argument.

Stating your beliefs again is also not a valid argument. I've already showed you why your method is incomplete. I'm not saying I don't agree with what you're saying, I'm telling you what you're doing is not enough to meaningfully resist greedy practices.

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#20 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 37708 Posts

At this point you become numb to it, which is what they want. Normalize it, people accept it.

They got away with that shit for so long with DLC and microtransactions with a "yes man" media of shit like Gametrailers back in the day sucking off Publishers.

Now with youtube on the rise and consumers becoming more aware and active, it's like an annoying fly buzzing around irritating them (a little)

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#21 Heirren
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@XVision84 said:

@heirren: Yes I am comparing the two and any other form of social change in any area of life. Just because they are of differing degrees of significance, it doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. If you would like to disprove it then argue the logic, "c'mon now" isn't an argument.

Stating your beliefs again is also not a valid argument. I've already showed you why your method is incomplete. I'm not saying I don't agree with what you're saying, I'm telling you what you're doing is not enough to meaningfully resist greedy practices.

It isnt my belief that one is human rights and one is a product. This is a fact. And fact of the matter it is THEIR product. They could charge for the amount of steps you take in a game if they wanted to. It is up to consumer to decide value.

The only area where things come into question is when the selling means is questionable by law, for example Loot Boxes being claimed as gambling. And even then, with a rating system in play, where M or A(or whatever it is) is specifically marketed as an *adult* product, these companies could get away with that.

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#22 2Chalupas
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@heirren said:
@XVision84 said:

@heirren: Yes I am comparing the two and any other form of social change in any area of life. Just because they are of differing degrees of significance, it doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. If you would like to disprove it then argue the logic, "c'mon now" isn't an argument.

Stating your beliefs again is also not a valid argument. I've already showed you why your method is incomplete. I'm not saying I don't agree with what you're saying, I'm telling you what you're doing is not enough to meaningfully resist greedy practices.

It isnt my belief that one is human rights and one is a product. This is a fact. And fact of the matter it is THEIR product. They could charge for the amount of steps you take in a game if they wanted to. It is up to consumer to decide value.

The only area where things come into question is when the selling means is questionable by law, for example Loot Boxes being claimed as gambling. And even then, with a rating system in play, where M or A(or whatever it is) is specifically marketed as an *adult* product, these companies could get away with that.

Nah. A mere rating system isn't good enough. Gambling is all about exploiting people's OCD's and propensity for addiction. There's no rational reason to "gamble" on digital content, other than some people are stupid and have these vulnerabilities. They get that chemical reaction in the brain when they "win" something. It's truly pathetic, it's bad enough people gamble with a shot at winning real money (even though math is against you, and always with the house), it's doubly stupid that people are willing to gamble real money for digital content. I mean... come the frack on. Gambling real money on virtual nothings. How did that ever become a thing? Lootboxes in video games is like crackhead level stuff. Worse than marketing cigarettes directly to children and teenagers IMO.

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#23  Edited By deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@heirren: When I brought up beliefs, I was referring to the part after mlk. I addressed mlk in my first paragraph when I said lessons learned from one can apply to the other.

The rest of your post I agree with. I know it's their product and they can do what they want. I simply do not like what they are doing because I do not believe it is right. Consumers will not act en masse without advocacy (ex: news media, hearsay, etc.)

The biggest microtransaction "offenders" are those targeted towards children (like fifa). Even M rated games like GTA have a widespread under 18 userbase so ratings alone are not a sufficient barrier.

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#24 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
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@2Chalupas: From my understanding, it's all about perceived value. Games are more social than ever and that means you're constantly being compared to others. Kids even bully other kids for having low tier Fortnite cosmetics. Kids are especially vulnerable because they don't have a solid grasp of the value of money.

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#25 Heirren
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

@XVision84:

I dont recall stating my own beliefs on it unless we had a little miscommunication.

Money talks and i hate to say it but it really is that simple. I get where you are coming from. It is true the masses often dont see the repercussions for their actions, but i find it ironic that in this case they often do yet continue to support the product.

And my point about the rating system stands as well. Yes i know that kids still find a way but because this system is in play the liability legally falls unto the parents. So technically a game with an adult tag could potentially, and legally, use gambling like tactics within the product.

Yes i am also aware that kids use cell phones and social media and all that goes along with it which makes things difficult to monitor in what is bought and the type of media which is consumed. This is why i said(in one of the political topics) that social media and whatnot should face similar ratings guidelines and most other products.

***what is it that fifa does which is so bad?***

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#26 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
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@heirren: By belief I was referring to your point about you not buying a game is enough to influence the company. If only you do it, they lose $60 which is nothing to them. However if we can get 1 million people to do that then they'll listen.

I'm not familiar with the legal system so I can't speak much on it. Isn't there a degree of flexibility in the law where exploitation of kids in M rated games can be appealed?

Regarding fifa, if you want high tier players in your roster then you need to buy player card packs. There have been multiple cases where a parent buys 1 or 2 packs for their kids because they've been behaving well. The kid secretly keeps track of how to buy a pack and then buys 100 packs for a rare player. It's partly the parents fault but imo it's also the company's fault since they knew what they were doing. We have proof of that in company presentations.

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#27 Heirren
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@XVision84:

Thats not my belief, that is just the facts. Like it or not but companies should not be required to cater their product to a consumer base "just because".

"Oh well i dont like this because you guys charge for this or that." The simple answer is to not support the product at all. The only reason this is happening in the first place is because people are supporting it. Again, it really is that simple.

Go to a sporting event and youll pay how much for food and beverages? Prices are that high because people continue to pay it. Fans can beg all they want and say, "but usually i only pay $2.50 for a hot dog, why should i pay $6.00 for one at the game?!" Well, why *should* you? See, consumer arent as dumb as people claim. They recognize these things and are mostly perfectly capable of making a purchase decision knowing full well what they are buying into. Bbbbbbbbbut what if we organize a petition to have them lower hot dog prices? And what will the gist of the petition be? A hot dog strike, just like union workers refusing to work if they feel something is unfair, essentially they "arent buying it."

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#28  Edited By Ten_Pints
Member since 2014 • 3954 Posts

If you never download a EA game you never have to deal with this.

Although in a F2P game what do you expect.

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#29 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 37708 Posts

@ten_pints said:

If you never download a EA game you never have to deal with this.

Sound logic right here

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#30 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
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@heirren: Again, I agree with what you're saying. I'm not disputing your points. I'm just saying I don't think it's enough. Not buying a product is enough for you, but that won't influence the company's bottom line until a lot of people do the same.

Your original statement was for me to stop complaining. My point is that speaking your mind can lead to others following suit. These conversations need to keep happening imo.

I'm not saying we should take up arms and start a revolution :P. At the end you speak with your wallet, advocacy is just a way to get more people to do that.

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#31  Edited By DragonfireXZ95
Member since 2005 • 25881 Posts
@2Chalupas said:

I give developers a bit more leeway on the microtransaction front when it's a "free to play" game, I mean the game is free, they have to make $$$ on it somehow. They can do all the season pass and DLC stuff they want on a free game and it doesn't bother me, so long as people keep interest and are willing to buy piecemeal content, that's the way it's supposed to work. Make a good product, earn revenues from that product. The nickle and dime nonsense only bothers me a bit on full priced games, it should never be intrusive or break into the core gameplay on a game you already paid for - that's where they cross the line.

But the loot box/gambling stuff is something entirely different. Very trashy revenue source, and quite frankly should be illegal/regulated since the target audience is children and it's very clearly gambling. EA can go to hell with their lies.

I agree with you there. Don't really mind paid lootboxes on a free to play game. Fully priced game lootboxes are crap, though. Even paid outfit DLC for fully priced games is crap. Even Resident Evil 2 did it to an extent with a couple of paid costumes, and it's even worse with single player games. MP games I'll give a little leeway, but it's lame.

EDIT: Noticed you said lootboxes suck, but honestly, I don't mind them in free to play games still; probably because I never buy them. Lol

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#32 Heirren
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

@XVision84:

Ironically, when the xbox 360 and ps3 were on shelves i pointed that out on this very site. People werent understanding what their purchase decisions would ultimately lead to.

So trust me i get exactly what you are saying. Its useless though. Why? Because the consumer is *aware* that their dollar would change these same problems they btch about. its similar to people complaining about movie games or the general direction of game design. People run out and buy the game, btch about it on forums and youtube, say theyll never buy another game like it, and then a week later they are doing the same thing with the next big game release.

Zero will power. Thats when you know its an unhealthy addiction, and probably why these loot boxes are being compared to gambling.

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#33 djoffer
Member since 2007 • 1711 Posts

It’s a F2P game... EA isn’t a charity, don’t like it don’t play F2P games, they are all like this..

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#34 pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 5907 Posts

No plans to play the game.

I don't think it being a F2P game gives them a pass to use a stupid monetization system like this.

I would not be surprised if EA influenced its implementation. Also lets not forget the new sleazy trend of adding monetization to games well after launch to avoid consumer protection from this BS.

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#35 KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27033 Posts

Oh I was going to try the solo mode.

But you know what? I think I'm good.

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#36  Edited By deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@heirren: I don't agree with that. I think most consumers are not aware and this is partly based on personal experience (which I will acknowledge is not a strong form of evidence). Some people I know were not aware of the impact lootboxes have on the industry and just accepted it as a trend. The people on Gamespot or YouTube are more invested in gaming than your average consumer who just wants to play things fast. Look at how big mobile gaming is. It's addiction and quick gratification.

I know a lot of people do what you said but I believe things don't need to be this way.

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#37  Edited By watercrack445
Member since 2017 • 2312 Posts

Same story different game. Deja Vu all over again.

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#38 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@djoffer: Valve, CDPR, and the major publishers (Sony, Nintendo, MS, etc.) are also not charities yet they seem to make plenty of money without resorting to these practices (and that's including their F2P games). Even of the greedy publishers, EA is the most egregious.

EA doesn't get a free pass, their end doesn't justify the means.

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#39 Heirren
Member since 2017 • 2335 Posts

@XVision84:

Maybe not before but theyre certainly aware now. Pull up any mobil game and check out the reviews and if theres some type of micritransaction, you can bet people will be voicing their opinion on it. This goes for almost all review outlets, and lets not forget that the games industry is one of, if not the, largest entertainment industry on the planet.

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#40 WitIsWisdom
Member since 2007 • 5811 Posts

If you are playing a free to play game and don't spend any money at all while others are then what in the hell makes you think you deserve to get extra things? You are NOT helping the devs by playing the game.. you are helping the devs by spending money... I understand that being able to purchase things individually is much different than loot boxes, but either buy them or don't... It isn't going to affect the gameplay, and if you are enjoying the game then why not show your appreciation.. even if it's only a couple/few bucks?

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SaltSlasher

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#41 SaltSlasher
Member since 2015 • 1476 Posts

I don't care enough to not get their games, but if someone who cares enough to be outraged, then why even play EA or Activision/Blizzard games?

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mrbojangles25

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#42 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 45741 Posts

@heirren said:

Stop complaining. Just dont buy the game. Simple, right?

It's a bit more complicated than that.

Some of us actually care about the state of the gaming industry; where it's going, where it's been, what business practices are being conducted and are they ethical, and so on. Even if it's a game we've never played in a genre we don't enjoy, it is still of some concern to us because it is part of the game industry and culture.

So even if we don't play a game like APEX, it's still upsetting that this has happened.

They were doing so well. APEX was a great game and I would argue it still is, it's just a real shame to see this taint of corruption on an otherwise completely enjoyable game that, up until now, was doing the whole free-to-play thing the right way.

Ah well, it's just for a cosmetic item, right? At least there is that saving grace.

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R4gn4r0k

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#43 R4gn4r0k
Member since 2004 • 32654 Posts
@XVision84 said:

@djoffer: Valve, CDPR, and the major publishers (Sony, Nintendo, MS, etc.) are also not charities yet they seem to make plenty of money without resorting to these practices (and that's including their F2P games). Even of the greedy publishers, EA is the most egregious.

EA doesn't get a free pass, their end doesn't justify the means.

Take Valve out of that list please. You should see the community market for TF2 and CSGO cosmetics

I've seen TF2 weapons go for 1.500-2.000 bucks on the community market. CSGO skins on average go up to 500.

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deactivated-5d78760d7d740

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#44  Edited By deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

@R4gn4r0k: I'm okay with that because it's like a free market. The cosmetics don't offer unfair competitive advantages and content isn't locked behind lootboxes (at least in the case of Dota 2 with a few exceptions for the international). Also, the items have actual value unlike EA microtransactions that are just a moneysink. You can spend $50 on a cosmetic, use it, then sell it to someone else for $50 or sometimes even more.

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speedytimsi

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#45  Edited By speedytimsi
Member since 2003 • 1061 Posts

I don't think it's cool to be locked behind lootboxes. I think there should be a way to earn all of those cosmetics by grinding. Watch they gonna release APEX Legends 2 and make cosmetics and all the crap from the 1st game useless since EA just being EA. They are gonna make stupid excuses like hardware is being limited by our current programs and all that crap.

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Litchie

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#46 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 25311 Posts

LOL EA. LOL Apex. LOL BR games.

I'm starting to not give a shit about lootboxes anymore, actually. If people want to be dumb as shit and reward companies for nothing, go the **** ahead. If you want to throw away your money that bad on bullshit and making the whole gaming industry worse in the process, you shouldn't have that money, and I'm glad you don't anymore so you don't put it towards something even dumber.

Gamers are the ones to blame for all this. Gamers are fucking stupid and doesn't deserve better. We should stop blaming EA for our own stupidity. EA doesn't need to learn their lesson. They have already: That gamers are fucking stupid and will give you money for crap. It's now the gamers who has to learn their lesson.