Did the Mid-Generation Console Upgrades Diminish the Allure of Next-Gen?

Avatar image for IMAHAPYHIPPO
IMAHAPYHIPPO

4195

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#1 IMAHAPYHIPPO
Member since 2004 • 4195 Posts

So, I think it must be noted that the ongoing complications brought on by COVID are likely why today's Xbox Series X reveal was a bit underwhelming. AC: Valhalla promised gameplay, and what we got were snippets of in-engine animations without any actual gameplay footage.

That said, the graphics we saw were really not of the generational leap expected of a next-gen montage. I remember the Killzone: Shadow Fall and Ryse: Son of Rome trailers at E3 the year the PS4 and Xbox One released, and while both were decidedly mediocre "ooo, look at my pretty new console" games, the leap in graphical fidelity compared to the best of PS3 and Xbox 360 was unmistakable.

I'm wondering if the mid-generation releases of the PS4 Pro and the Xbox One X are partly to blame for this showing being somewhat underwhelming from a graphical standpoint. Sure, there was some ray-tracing and screens cluttered with as many game objects as humanly possible, but looking at the actual textures and animations (lip-syncing, character movement, the spraying of dirt, etc) are not anything close to the kind of advancement people typically expect from a next-gen console.

The PS3 and Xbox 360 era was by far the longest console generation the game industry has had, and by the end of 2013, developers had long since maxed out every bit of graphical power those consoles could pump out. While I don't think anybody could reasonably complain about companies offering upgraded versions of their system, so game developers could continue to push the limits of what they could accomplish with modern hardware, I do wonder if the allure of next-gen consoles has suffered because of it. Where the PS4/Xbox One were shown off in comparison to hardware that released in 2005 and 2006, the Xbox Series X and PS5 are only upgrades from hardware that released within the last few years.

Side note: some of the ray-tracing and added particle effects in those trailers make some of those games look completely unplayable. The aggressive lighting and overuse of moving game objects in Bright Memory looks more frustrating than functional.

Avatar image for deactivated-642321fb121ca
deactivated-642321fb121ca

7142

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 20

User Lists: 0

#2 deactivated-642321fb121ca
Member since 2013 • 7142 Posts

Developers will always push visuals, the extra grunt will merely give them RT. Consoles will be stuck with 4K/30fps.

Avatar image for r-gamer
R-Gamer

2221

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

#3  Edited By R-Gamer
Member since 2019 • 2221 Posts

There launch titles bro. This happens every gen especially on cross gen games. Were at the point when $$ and dev size is the single most important aspect of making a good looking game. What you saw today were mostly indie titles. And the one triple A title is a cross gen multiplat. Untill you see games built with PS5/ XSX/PC only you are probably not going to be that impressed.

Avatar image for Pedro
Pedro

69097

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 72

User Lists: 0

#4 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69097 Posts

Yes! Which is good. The time hype for graphics needs to die. Lets focus on better games. I do appreciate the better CPU and SSD, not such much the strong GPU. I not sure what people was expecting for next gen. The processing needed for a traditional generational leap is astronomical and its not going to happen, EVER.

Series X is 2X Xbox One X

Xbox One X is 4X Xbox One

Avatar image for uninspiredcup
uninspiredcup

58647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 86

User Lists: 2

#5 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58647 Posts

For me business practice did.

That excitement you had a a kid when it from from 16-32 bit with a sense of "woe what will they do?" have now been replaced with "oh god, what will they do?"

Avatar image for Paddy345
Paddy345

860

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#6  Edited By Paddy345
Member since 2007 • 860 Posts

This reveal has proven to me PS5 and Xbox series X will be a complete embarrassment where the only advantage over xbox x and ps4 pro will be how much of a performance boost you will get. It looks exactly the same. Looks like those photo realistic worlds won't be happening anytime soon.

I suppose as someone who has a pretty powerful gaming PC I can't help but feel pity on those thinking this is next gen

Avatar image for deactivated-63d2876fd4204
deactivated-63d2876fd4204

9129

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#7 deactivated-63d2876fd4204
Member since 2016 • 9129 Posts

Yes, 100%. The mid-gen consoles also made the past few years more bearable. So it’s not all bad.

Avatar image for sealionact
sealionact

9780

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#8 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 9780 Posts

@Paddy345: I suppose that PC which cost at least twice what the consoles will cost is displaying photorealistic graphics no doubt?

Avatar image for Nonstop-Madness
Nonstop-Madness

12303

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 13

User Lists: 0

#9 Nonstop-Madness
Member since 2008 • 12303 Posts

Yes and it's the biggest reason why next gen can't just be about resolutions and frame rate. It needs to be about new experiences like how the current gen introduced the share functionality etc.

A great example is the create button on the DualSense. We kinda know what it could be but, it's still a mystery. That, whether it ends up being a good thing, is what we need more of.

Avatar image for IMAHAPYHIPPO
IMAHAPYHIPPO

4195

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#10  Edited By IMAHAPYHIPPO
Member since 2004 • 4195 Posts

@goldenelementxl: Yeah, I do agree with that. I remember after the next-gen showcases at the end of last gen, The Last of Us on PS3 was almost unplayable for me with all those jagged edges when moving the camera.

Avatar image for deactivated-63d1ad7651984
deactivated-63d1ad7651984

10057

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 13

#11 deactivated-63d1ad7651984
Member since 2017 • 10057 Posts

Moore's Law is dying out.

Loading Video...

Avatar image for ConanTheStoner
ConanTheStoner

23706

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#13 ConanTheStoner
Member since 2011 • 23706 Posts

Yeah, probably. Just like how anyone with a mid range-high end PC doesn't see what all the fuss is about.

But it's not like I expect radical differences anymore anyways. The tech side of gaming will always improve, but it's gonna be increasingly incremental. Which doesn't bother me at all. Games of all visual styles look great as is. Worlds are already too big. Of course there are still limitations, always will be, but very few game designers should really be feeling handcuffed at this point. Most games just aren't that ambitious, nor do they need to be. The most significant improvements to be made now are more on the design side, the canvas is no longer extremely limited.

Anyways, not opposed to mid gen upgrades either. Gives me more of a reason to hold off and see if the exclusives are worth it. Had I known there would be Pro, wouldn't have bought the PS4 as early as I did.

@IMAHAPYHIPPO said:

Side note: some of the ray-tracing and added particle effects in those trailers make some of those games look completely unplayable. The aggressive lighting and overuse of moving game objects in Bright Memory looks more frustrating than functional.

Ha, only watched some spots here and there. Didn't see it myself, but I definitely believe it. Devs go crazy overboard with new toys at the start of a gen. Remember gen 7 it was absurd amounts of bloom and dof. Start of gen 8, devs got obnoxious with particles for a bit.

Avatar image for Jag85
Jag85

19382

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 219

User Lists: 0

#14 Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19382 Posts

Diminishing returns. The generational leap always gets smaller with each gen.

The game industry is now heading in a Hollywood direction, where budgets and art direction define how good something looks, more than the hardware itself.

Avatar image for Telekill
Telekill

12061

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 0

#15 Telekill
Member since 2003 • 12061 Posts

I skipped the Pro because my launch PS4 still works. I'm not one to buy basically the same product twice. So for me, buying the PS5 will actually feel like a pretty nice jump.

Avatar image for Willy105
Willy105

26077

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 19

User Lists: 0

#16 Willy105
Member since 2005 • 26077 Posts

Sony and MS wanted their gen to go super long like the PS3/360 gen did, but it only neutered when they actually wanted to start a new gen.

Avatar image for lamprey263
lamprey263

44503

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 10

User Lists: 0

#17 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44503 Posts

This pandemic is really gonna kill the hype mood for everyone. MS, Sony, the big AAA publishers, they should just hire Digital Devolver to do their streaming reveals from now one, that's the only way I see this working.

Avatar image for joshrmeyer
JoshRMeyer

12571

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#18 JoshRMeyer
Member since 2015 • 12571 Posts

One thing that we dont have on console is a really high end VR unit. I think we'll get that this next gen. I'll more than likely get a PSVR 2. As far as graphics go, I just want a 60fps option mostly. But to be fair, Destiny 2 looks miles better on PC than any console. So there's that.

Avatar image for truebond
truebond

39

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#19 truebond
Member since 2010 • 39 Posts

I believe there should've of been a mid generation handheld console version of the home consoles. I believe that Xbox One S All-Digital should've been a Xbox One All-Digital lite handheld that could've compete along side the Nintendo Switch with 6.2" 720p display. I believe Microsoft should've spent their time shrinking it and getting it efficient enough to operate with the same setting as a Xbox One S, but within a 720p handheld instead of a hybrid, so Microsoft can have a real reason to justify turning the Xbox One into an all digital console and Sony should've done the same with the PS4. As for Nintendo, they should've not down clocked the Tegra and made the first version of the switch a 1080p home console and mid generation released a more efficient version that could perform at the same level as the original released home console not down clocked, but that was also a hybrid 1080p docked console/720p undocked.

Avatar image for ronvalencia
ronvalencia

29612

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#20  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Pedro said:

Yes! Which is good. The time hype for graphics needs to die. Lets focus on better games. I do appreciate the better CPU and SSD, not such much the strong GPU. I not sure what people was expecting for next gen. The processing needed for a traditional generational leap is astronomical and its not going to happen, EVER.

Series X is 2X Xbox One X

Xbox One X is 4X Xbox One

On GPU FP32 compute, XSX is ~2.7X of X1X.

From https://www.tomsguide.com/news/first-xbox-series-x-gameplay-may-be-revealed-today-with-forza-motorsport-8

Forza Horizon 4

The demo show will reportedly continue with Forza Horizon 4. Here we will see how variable rate shading works on the Xbox Series X. VRS is a technique that allows the GPU to boost detail and quality in complex parts of the images while lowering its power needs in simpler areas.

The reasoning behind VRS is that our eyes and brain can’t focus on the totality of an image. If you are paying attention to the screen, your eyes will be focused on where the action is, which typically is the more complex part of the image. The graphics engine doesn’t have to spend so much power on the less complex, peripherals parts of the image. That results in power optimization that allows to boost detail even more or increase the frame rate.

The results? Playground Games — who develop the Forza Horizon series — added VRS to Forza Horizon 4 when it received its Xbox Series X development kits in December. That increased the frame rate in the game by a whooping 32% with “no optimizations, just using VRS in parts with motion blur.” According to the redditor, “VRS changes the way they design games (VRS as motion blur replacement),” pointing out that the” lead engineer says they can reach 4K/120 today on XSX thanks to RDNA2 architecture and the combined effort of AMD and Microsoft.”

Yeah, 4K and 120 frames per second.

Swapping FH4's blur motion into VRS version enables XSX's FH4 to reach 120 fps 4K.

If VRS improves the frame rate by 32 percent which yields 120 fps 4K, then non-VRS version would be 81.6 fps 4K, hence XSX GPU is about 2.72 times better than X1X GPU's FH4 results.

The "no optimizations" could mean running on GCN legacy mode (wave64 instructions) instead of RDNA mode (wave32 instructions)

When running on GCN legacy mode, XSX GPU is effectively ~16.3 TFLOPS GCN.

Running native RDNA 2's wave32 yields another 10% less instruction retirement latency.

Read https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/ctfbem/amd_rdna_whitepaper/

Figure 3 (bottom of page 5) shows 4 lines of shader instructions being executed in GCN, vs RDNA in Wave32 or “backwards compatible” Wave64.

Vega takes 12 cycles to complete the instruction on a GCN SIMD. Navi in Wave32 (optimized code) completes it in 7 cycles.

In backwards compatible (optimized for GCN Wave64) mode, Navi completes it in 8 cycles.

So even on code optimized for GCN, Navi is faster., but more performance can be extracted by optimizing for Navi.

Lower latency, and no wasted clock cycles.

RDNA's 8 cycle latency with GCN wave64 backward compatibility mode yields 33% improvement in effective IPC e.g. XSX GPU's 12.147 TFLOPS equates to ~16.15‬ TFLOPS GCN

RDNA's 7 cycle latency with native RDNA wave32 mode yields 41.6% improvement in effective IPC e.g. XSX GPU's 12.147 TFLOPS equates to ~17.2‬1 TFLOPS GCN

Further improvement comes from at least 2nd-generation rapid pack math and DX12 Ultimate's new GPU resource conservative features e.g. XSX being 4X effectiveness over X1X with a single VRS enabled motion blur performance boost.

RTX Turing's potential needs DirectX12 Ultimate API upgrade.

Avatar image for DarthaPerkinjan
DarthaPerkinjan

1318

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 5

User Lists: 0

#21  Edited By DarthaPerkinjan
Member since 2005 • 1318 Posts

CPU processing will make a bigger difference this gen. Expect far more AI (people, cars, etc) on screen, more complex destructible/interactive environments, etc

Avatar image for uninspiredcup
uninspiredcup

58647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 86

User Lists: 2

#22 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 58647 Posts

@DarthaPerkinjan said:

CPU processing will make a bigger difference this gen. Expect far more AI (people, cars, etc) on screen, more complex destructible/interactive environments, etc

Will they finally be able to climb ladders and not act like donkeys?

Avatar image for shellcase86
shellcase86

6844

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#23 shellcase86
Member since 2012 • 6844 Posts

Did the Mid-Generation Console Upgrades Diminish the Allure of Next-Gen?

No. The vast majority of current gen console owners have the base versions of their console, so most people aren't even seeing the improved framerate/resolutions the Pro and X1X provide.

Also, despite how weak the current gen base console are -- the game out look amazing! We'll see better stuff for next gen when those studios making the currently amazing-looking games do the same for next gen.

Avatar image for Pedro
Pedro

69097

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 72

User Lists: 0

#24 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 69097 Posts

@ronvalencia: NO.

Avatar image for my_user_name
my_user_name

1204

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

#25 my_user_name
Member since 2019 • 1204 Posts


Well said.

@uninspiredcup said:

For me business practice did.

That excitement you had a a kid when it from from 16-32 bit with a sense of "woe what will they do?" have now been replaced with "oh god, what will they do?"

Avatar image for PSP107
PSP107

18782

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#26 PSP107
Member since 2007 • 18782 Posts

@Nonstop-Madness: "A great example is the create button on the DualSense. We kinda know what it could be but, it's still a mystery. That, whether it ends up being a good thing, is what we need more of."

Probably a glorified share button.

Avatar image for pmanden
pmanden

2919

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

#27 pmanden
Member since 2016 • 2919 Posts

The first games on a new console rarely take proper advantage of the hardware. And since I think that games like Far Cry 5, Assassin's Creed Origins and Odyssey already look pretty damn great on my xbox one x, I don't expect a major graphical leap on the series x. Not anytime soon, at least. I will likely play on my xbox one x for the next year or two before I will feel compelled to go next gen.

Avatar image for DragonfireXZ95
DragonfireXZ95

26641

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#28 DragonfireXZ95
Member since 2005 • 26641 Posts

@ConanTheStoner said:

Yeah, probably. Just like how anyone with a mid range-high end PC doesn't see what all the fuss is about.

But it's not like I expect radical differences anymore anyways. The tech side of gaming will always improve, but it's gonna be increasingly incremental. Which doesn't bother me at all. Games of all visual styles look great as is. Worlds are already too big. Of course there are still limitations, always will be, but very few game designers should really be feeling handcuffed at this point. Most games just aren't that ambitious, nor do they need to be. The most significant improvements to be made now are more on the design side, the canvas is no longer extremely limited.

Anyways, not opposed to mid gen upgrades either. Gives me more of a reason to hold off and see if the exclusives are worth it. Had I known there would be Pro, wouldn't have bought the PS4 as early as I did.

@IMAHAPYHIPPO said:

Side note: some of the ray-tracing and added particle effects in those trailers make some of those games look completely unplayable. The aggressive lighting and overuse of moving game objects in Bright Memory looks more frustrating than functional.

Ha, only watched some spots here and there. Didn't see it myself, but I definitely believe it. Devs go crazy overboard with new toys at the start of a gen. Remember gen 7 it was absurd amounts of bloom and dof. Start of gen 8, devs got obnoxious with particles for a bit.

It highly depends on your monitor or TV you might be experiencing them on. Monitors and TVs that don't have good contrast and/or brightness would cause this issue, as the shadows and lighting could create obfuscation. A great monitor doesn't affect it, and you only get the plus side. I have Bright Memory on PC, and on my monitor it looks great and RTX doesn't make it any less playable at all.