Devs React to DX 12 Doubling Xbox One GPU Speed

From Microsoft Directly with Benchmarks

Is this marketing spin?

We (the product team) read the comments on twitter and game development/gamer forums and many of you have asked if this is real or if our marketing department suddenly received a budget infusion. Everything you are reading is coming directly from the team who has brought you almost 20 years of DirectX.

It’s our job to create great APIs and we have worked closely with our hardware and software partners to prove the significant performance wins of Direct3D 12. And these aren’t just micro-benchmarks that we hacked up ourselves – these numbers are for commercially released game engines or benchmarks, running on our alpha implementation. The screenshots below are from real Direct3D 12 app code running on a real Direct3D 12 runtime running on a real Direct3D 12 driver.

1) Direct x 12 has nothing to do with GPU speed at all.

2) There is no proof that in the real world it will improve xb1 much at all since DX doesn't magically make all hardware better. The hardware has to support DX in order to use it.

3) It still wont be released until fall/winter OF NEXT YEAR.

If you believe, then you shall be HEALED!

1) True it's overall performance

2) Microsoft already said that Xbox One has FULL DX12 support. I think Phil Spencer tweeted it, or Albert Penello.

3) Games won't release until then, but the software is in developers hands much sooner. So some games will use it before that time, definitely Xbox One games. I think we're going to see some things on E3, but probably about games being released in Q1-2 2015

I don't think that is what people are saying... well, it's at least not what I have been saying.

DX12 will fix the crappy APIs that shipped with the dev kits for the Xb1. Will it give it a 100% performance increase? No, but it could give it a 10%-30% performance boost. I saw this first had with .Net 3 vs .Net 3.5.

Now, I doubt Sony will just sit around and not optimize their stuff, but I haven't read any articles saying that devs are complaining about the PS4's APIs. So, I am not sure how much more they can be "optimized", if they are already tuned. So, I still expect the gap between the two to be reduced.

If all of this comes true, do I expect the Xb1 to be "just as powerful" as the PS4? No, but the gap will be less than it is today. Given that I don't think the gap is that big right now, I am optimistic that DX12 will mean resolution and frame rate parity between the two.

I don't think Xbox One solely will ever get to the level of PS4, but with the cloud and DX12, they'll probably are going to do even better things. You can laugh with the cloud now, but within 2-3 years it will be huge. Also all those people saying DX12 won't bring much improvements, and is just like Mantle:

AMD's Raja Khodury: "And it's not a small benefit. It's… like getting four generations of hardware ahead with this API."

Intel's VP of Engineering, Eric Mentezer: "This is absolutely, I think, the most significant jump in technology in a long, long time."

Nvidia's VP of Content and Technology, Tony Tamasi: "existing cards will see orders of magnitude improvements from DirectX 12's release, going from hundreds of thousands to millions and maybe tens of millions of system draws in a second."

I don't think that is what people are saying... well, it's at least not what I have been saying.

DX12 will fix the crappy APIs that shipped with the dev kits for the Xb1. Will it give it a 100% performance increase? No, but it could give it a 10%-30% performance boost. I saw this first had with .Net 3 vs .Net 3.5.

Now, I doubt Sony will just sit around and not optimize their stuff, but I haven't read any articles saying that devs are complaining about the PS4's APIs. So, I am not sure how much more they can be "optimized", if they are already tuned. So, I still expect the gap between the two to be reduced.

If all of this comes true, do I expect the Xb1 to be "just as powerful" as the PS4? No, but the gap will be less than it is today. Given that I don't think the gap is that big right now, I am optimistic that DX12 will mean resolution and frame rate parity between the two.

1)Allow the GPU to work better because the CPU becomes less of a rock in the way,Consoles already have this for years,including the 360.

2)

One of the surprise announcements at the show is that Nvidia will support DX12 on every Fermi, Kepler, and Maxwell-class GPU. That means nearly every GTX 400, 500, and 600 series card will be supported. Interestingly, AMD isn’t necessarily following suit — the company has indicated that it will support DX12 on all GCN-based hardware, but hasn’t indicated if HD 6000 or HD 5000 cards will be included in that.

Yeah DX12 features also work on PS4..lol Because it work on all GCN which the PS4 is part of,which mean anything done by API can be done by LibGNM or openGL,i have been saying this for a long time.

3)It has been on developers hands since the PS3 and 360 days,on sony side since the PSX,console have tools which help with CPU utilization,DX on xbox 360 was better spreading workload on games than the PC version and still this is the case today.

See this is why i consider you a joke,so the xbox one will improve from 10 to 30% by using an APi it already has been using,DX 12 is a damn API to emulate console API you people need to get this into your thick heads,DX12 is a Direct Response to mantle the reason it lands on holiday 2015 is because MS was late and AMD catch them pants down,AMD has been complaining for years about DX bottle necks,and they decide to go ahead with Mantle,so now MS is working 24 7 to try to catch what AMD did,because if DX keep trailing Mantle performance wise which API on PC do you think developers will use.? So yeah MS is betting everything on DX12 which is the reason why you see so much hype for it.

So because you don't hear developers complaining that means tools for the PS4 may stay still.?

http://gamingbolt.com/ps4-ice-team-programmer-surface-tilingdetiling-on-the-cpu-is-10-100x-faster-now

Infamous doesn't even use that neither games on launch which were outperforming xbox one games,so imaging when developers start taking advantage,all hardware always improve sony always did that all generation long with the PS3 and the PS2 as well.

See what did i say on the other post that you try to claim that the xbox one API will improve greatly but sony one who knows it may not improve much..lol

You don't think the gap is big now because you are a blind biased lemming,30 fu**ng frames per second slower in 1 game while having inferior effects and you think is not big.

50% resolution advantage on another while having 25% frame advantage as well small.

100% resolution advantage while having extra effects like MGS5 again not big..lol

You are a joke and you claimed that the difference would be 3 to 5 FPS the difference is as big as 30 FPS with better effects and you still have the face to claim is small,man stop your damage controls and admit the PS4 is freaking owned the xbox one beyond what it should for the hardware they both have,something is very wrong with the xbox one and is not just an API.

I don't think Xbox One solely will ever get to the level of PS4, but with the cloud and DX12, they'll probably are going to do even better things. You can laugh with the cloud now, but within 2-3 years it will be huge. Also all those people saying DX12 won't bring much improvements, and is just like Mantle:

AMD's Raja Khodury: "And it's not a small benefit. It's… like getting four generations of hardware ahead with this API."

Intel's VP of Engineering, Eric Mentezer: "This is absolutely, I think, the most significant jump in technology in a long, long time."

Nvidia's VP of Content and Technology, Tony Tamasi: "existing cards will see orders of magnitude improvements from DirectX 12's release, going from hundreds of thousands to millions and maybe tens of millions of system draws in a second."

@tormentos: LOL! It's TOTALLY clinging. Again, that one instance is all you got. I laugh every time I see you post it.

And yes, you debated (in futility) for 4 pages about XB1 and PS4 APIs. And yes, you lost that debate. Just read my other posts in this thread.

I am not ignoring anything. The difference IS SMALL. 30% is not anything in real world terms as far as computing power goes. You'd know that if you were in IT.

Activision got Ghosts on the XB1 to be 1080p, they just couldn't get the frame rate to stay at 60. It is entirely possible for that to be solved by optimized APIs. Anyone who has ever been a software developer knows that. You saying otherwise is like arguing the moon is made of cheese.

You just don't know what the Hell you are talking about, Tormentos. I can't emphasize that any clearer. I am in IT, I build and install web/application servers, maintain and build databases and database servers, and have been a software developer for more years than I care to admit.

I don't see why this is so hard to grasp. First of all it was perfectly fin for PS fans to tout wow mantle is like da 50% performance boost and it was fine and PS fans said this is a fact. Also Mantle is apparently on hold right now and may not even see the light of day on PS4 but that remains to be seen either ways PS fans preached it as fact.

So why is is that Companies like Intel have said DX12 is the biggest leap they have seen in many many years in regards for a major performance boost for existing GPU's along with a developer that has current hands on working experience with this new API and raves about it and says it's totally legit yet now PS fans says this is impossible can't happen yet in regards to mantle for PS4 yup it's fact can do it?

So I ask PS fans lets get this strait what is it if it's good for PS4 it's gonna do what it says and it's fact? But if it's for X1 it's nope can't happen it's all lies and Intel and a current developer are making things up and it's impossible?

Can someone explain this to me why this hypocrisy exist within PS fanboy nation?

The cloud is a joke and any game using the cloud means that any user that gets it most have online mandatory which is in the first place why 24 hours check ups were drop on xbox one,not always online is working and not every one has online either.

Which is the reason why not all developers are to happy about cloud in the first place,in fact there have been complains about titanfall internet dropping while people where playing story and they lose all they won.

If you interne is down,having problems or some one doesn't have internet you can't play the game period,that cost sales to developers which is the reason why they have not rush.

That is just pure PR bullsh** 4 hardware generation ahead is a damn total joke and show how stupid some people can be.

The best feature about DX 12 for AMD,Intel and Nvidia on those quotes may be the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ MS is paying for advertising..lol

No is not you are on a topic about graphics and performance once again trying to claim the gap is small when it isn't,and one again you are trying to imply that the xbox one will get a certain performance that some how the PS4 will not get because you claim to now have heard developers complain about API's.

And no i didn't loss the argument you still trying to imply that the xbox one will magically improve while the PS4 will not improve much,you just change the argument now to show that the PS4 can't improve much because some how its API was fine,which i just prove wrong with just 1 link from Team Ice about surface tilling now been from 10 to 100 times faster now on test,something no launch have take advantage of and not even Infamous which look incredible as well.

Yes probably the game was running at 20FPS,there ware several pit stops before 720p from 1080p you know,if the game was close to the PS4 at 1080p a simple drop to 900p would have suffice,but no a drop to 900p still didn't cut it,so it could have been like Titanfall not quite 900p but not quite 720p either,but no the drop had to be 720p because it was the only way to hit 60FPS.

In fact Titanfall is higher than 720p,but has more drops than Ghost have and drop to 30 FPS which Ghost never does,so it is easy to see why Ghost is 720p at anything higher than 720p it would have not hit 60.

No a jump from 720p to 1080p requires more than an API upgrade dude,FPS in special are castrated on xbox one,not a single one hit even 900p,BF4 is also 720p and runs 10 FPS slower than the PS4 version that isn't 1080p but is 900p,see there are pit stops before you hit 720p,pit stops the xbox one is missing to go all the way down to 720p,now the xbox one can hit 1080p on FPS but at what quality cost is the question or performance.

And yet you were totally wrong about the performance both consoles would have why you were wrong.?

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/778?vs=777

Because you wanted endlessly to ignore this ^^..I bring benchmarks like those like 100 times and you ignore it,you may be an IT but when you want to ignore fact just to be a blind fanboy your title serves for nothing.

The 7770 has 1.28TF that is what the xbox one has now with the 10% reservation cut to 2%,the 7850 is actually lower than the PS4 and has 2 CU less which help even less its case.

So take Hitman for example on High,55 FPS on the 7850 33 FPS on the 7770 that is 22 FPS advantage,now were ever or not the xbox one resembles a 7770 can be debated,sure it lack dual render pipes and 2 CU,but if i use the 7790 vs the 7850.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/778?vs=776

The difference is 10 FPS 55 for the 7850 45 for the 7790,and while i am sure you would love to hold to that one better you can't either,the 7790 has 14 CU at 1007mhz,and is 1.79TF not 12 CU 857mhz and 1.3 TF,so the xbox one doesn't have the power of the 7790 either is a dumb down version.

Now if you would have use your years of experience as IT rather than your years of experience been a blind fanboy,you would have notice that not matter what freaking AP the 7790 or the 7770 get would not make it beat the 7850 or stay close because that same API also help the 7850.

On equal grounding the 7850 is stronger and performers better period nothing can change this,unless you bottle neck the hardware so bad that the 7850 can't performs,let say 12 ROP,512MB of memory or using 2GB of DDR3 memory which will cripple performance on that card.

Now when you compare the PS4 vs the xbox one, not only the PS4 has a 18 CU GPU vs 12 one of the xbox one,the PS4 has no bottle necks,and was done basically thinking on the future one that take heavy compute in mind,worse for the xbox one the memory on the PS4 hardware is abundant and fast wit not middle mans or bottle necks,so the GPU isn't hold back,worse the PS4 has true HSA and true hUMA CPU and GPU can read from the same memory address all the time,on the xbox one that isn't the case.

So a game that should have been from 10 to 18 FPS turns into one that is up to 30 FPS with better effects.

You can take any example from those benchmakrs the result is the same the weaker hardware getting outdone easy,now how can your years of IT didn't let you see this fast is beyond me,i just hope that you are a better IT than you are a fanboy.

Because the hardware difference from the off shot was bigger than you wanted to pretend and that is the reason why you loss that argument and you were wrong.

OK, @tormentos, before you reply, I want you to read what I have typed, and think about it for a minute. Both of these are real world cases.

1) Last year, my company had extra money at the end of the year in the IT budget, so we decided to upgrade our business layer servers which host web and windows services that our applications access business layer computations. We installed all new CPUs (4), each of which were about double the processing power of the ones that were replaced. When we fired up the servers and ran our stub tests we noticed (drum roll)... a 20% performance increase. Why? Because the difference in computing power is not linear to the performance bump of the services. The same situation happened when we upgraded our database servers last year.

2) While I find the EDMX to be cumbersome, and LINQ to be an abomination of data layer access, some of our apps use them anyway. Last month, we upgraded the version of the EDMX. No hardware upgrades, no OS upgrades, just .Net and the EDMX (which, btw, is an API). All of our applications got a speed bump... a big one Why? Because the LINQ APIs process data queries a lot faster than the previous version did (it also fixed a lot of short comings). So, and API update gave our applicaitons a speed bump.

The same thing applies to gaming consoles and games.

Blah blah blah.., No matter how many times you repost the same stuff, it doesn't make you correct. Your argument is like someone saying to a mechanic "you will not improve power output on this carbureted engine by increasing air or fuel flow because the size of the cylinders isn't changing."

You are so bent on proving there is a difference, when I have never said there wasn't one. The PS4 has a better GPU - I have said that a hundred times before. I have also said the difference between the two does not equate to the PS4 being "50% more powerful", because that's an over simplification and just not true And, even if it *were* true, in computer terms that's not a very big difference. You obviously think it does, and that is where you are in error.

@misterpmedia said:

@rocky_denace said:

I don't see why this is so hard to grasp. First of all it was perfectly fin for PS fans to tout wow mantle is like da 50% performance boost and it was fine and PS fans said this is a fact. Also Mantle is apparently on hold right now and may not even see the light of day on PS4 but that remains to be seen either ways PS fans preached it as fact.

So why is is that Companies like Intel have said DX12 is the biggest leap they have seen in many many years in regards for a major performance boost for existing GPU's along with a developer that has current hands on working experience with this new API and raves about it and says it's totally legit yet now PS fans says this is impossible can't happen yet in regards to mantle for PS4 yup it's fact can do it?

So I ask PS fans lets get this strait what is it if it's good for PS4 it's gonna do what it says and it's fact? But if it's for X1 it's nope can't happen it's all lies and Intel and a current developer are making things up and it's impossible?

Can someone explain this to me why this hypocrisy exist within PS fanboy nation?

1: No-one is saying there won't be a performance increase

2: People are just not buying into some of the PR statements made regarding it

3: The Xbone does not have a great track record performance wise...so far

4: PS4 was meant to be a lot like mantle and was stated as such but the games were doing the talking rather than the techies

5: Here's a tweet from a dev who's already made a game for the PS4(and devs from the same field have already included the PS4 in their presentations about going forward in to-the-metal-coding) on the subject about the performance gains regarding mantle and as you see the the PS4 is plenty mature already doesn't even need it!

6: PS4 will mature even further as SDKs do despite certain people on here thinking it will just stand still as Xbone gets DX12.

7: Couple that with the facts about PS4's superior tech inside and you have people skeptical about this being such 'megaton' improvement to the bone apart from the fanboy die hards who will drink any juice in front of them as long as it's green.

8: Full DX12 also drops in holiday 2015, so if it does improve it massively people still have to wait until there's fully DX12 games built from the ground up.

Of course PS4 will continue to get better optimization but what your not considering is though why PS4 gets better small marginal updates the X1 is getting a FULL major API brand new DX12 tool set that is going to make the GPU use all of it's cores like they have never been used before. Just like the developer has said along with Intel this is a major boost and the developer clearly states the API allows the GPU to use cores like never before. This is like a complete overhaul of the toolset and bringing in a totally new nevere before seen technology for GPU's. For the PS4 it's again going to get incremental boost like driver updates but as of now being Mantel may not even come to PS4 it's not going to get the major full overhaul of never before seen major upgraded toolset like the X1.

And again it's not a PR statement it's coming directly from a developer who is currently working on the API and has nothing to gain to tell lies and again he is currently working with the new DX12 API toolset features and he is clearly amazed of the major performance boost this new complete overhauled DX12 toolset is bringing.

What I do find funny is the fact that Sony has even commented on this latest new info in regards to the new API coming to X1. If Sony is already commenting on it that is what we call around hear DAMAGE CONTROL and they are clearly doing it so they are sweating DX12 already LOL.

Also it's clearly obvious the dev tools where nowhere near ready for the X! at launch it's a no brainer MS had hoped to launch the X1 in 2014. But as the dev tools are coming up to spec we are already seeing parity with games like the new Wolfienstein game and The Crew both 1080p on X1 so just imagine once the new API DX12 tool set hits the X1 it's going to be a huge bonus for developers. Also early indication suggest that DX12 will come a bit sooner to X1 and not have to wait until holiday 2015 there is rumored speculation that the X1 will get it first and a good bit sooner then it hits for PC so we may not have to wait as long for it on X1.

So what all this is going to come down to is both system will end up being complete parity for the most part because there is so much money involved in making games these days that they are not going to make one game better then the other systems version once these new API tools hit X1. Basically we are going to see both systems with parody and both systems running games at 1080p for 99.9% of games. With this said it's then going to just come down to what system has the better features and apps and most better exclusives and we know already X1 is DESTROYING PS4 in features and apps for example way better Twitch higer res streaming and also can archive your videos and just as of today you can directly upload to Youtube from X1. So we know MS is going to crush Sony in this regard and also as of now and it appears MS has the edge in more better exclusives but that is opinion but as of now MS has more and more announce but that is a whole other thread topic.

Agreed, well said. There are to many people involved in DX12 who are putting their names and reputations on the line when they say how big of a deal this is. As always, the burden of proof is real-time game footage. Doubling the Xbox One GPU isnt what I personally think DX12 or anything will do. But greatly improving and optimizing One games, especially hitting 1080p along with a ton of effects running is something I expect.

That damage control!

Face it. PS4 is weak sauce!

@tormentos said:

@StormyJoe said:

Look, I have been writing software for... well, more years than I care to admit to. And, I will tell you first hand that optimized APIs can significantly improve an applications performance, just like poorly written APIs can cripple it. So without having any benchmark comparisons between DX 11's API performance and DX 12's API performance, making a blanket comment like "Its all because of hardware piece X" is nothing short of pure ignorance.

The difference between the PS4 and XB1 is, in the large scale of things, relatively minor. If you apply Moore's Law, the difference doesn't even amount to 1 CPU generation (2 years). So, is a 1-2 year old high end PC that much slower than a brand new high end PC?

Yeah and you claim the difference would be 3 to 5 frames per second at the same resolution and you were totally wrong.

Problem is all consoles improve by API and the PS4 will improve as well so it nos like the xbox one will improve while the PS4 stay static.

Minor.?

Up to 30 FPS advantage in Tomb Raider while having better textures,better effects is Minor.?

Dude the difference in Tomb raider is so damn big it make the xbox one seem like it has a 7770 while the PS4 has a 7950 or even worse.

You people don't actually quantify the difference you really aren't.

Look at the 7770 vs the 7850 the difference is 13 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7870 23 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7950 exactly 30 FPS...

How is it possible that the PS4 commands a lead which is as big as the one between the 7770 vs the 7950.?

On average the PS4 version is 21 FPS faster, that is 7770 vs 7870.

Oh and that is without taking into account that while the 7770 is 30 FPS slower than the 7950 is doing exactly the same graphics,image quality is the same under the same setting,on PS4 vs xbox one that isn't the case either,the xbox one version has alpha based effects in parts at half the resolution,lower quality depth of field,reduced levels of anisotropic filtering and some lower resolution textures and 900p cut scenes.

So not only the PS4 commands a lead which go up to 30FPS it also do so while having better image quality as well which would make the gap even bigger.

16 ROP isn't the problem since the 7790 has 16 ROP as well and hit 1080p easy,is ESRAM the problem alone side the xbox one reservation on a GPU that was already weaker to begin with.

You keep clinging to that one instance where I was incorrect. Despite the fact that I readily admit it. It's kind of an honor at this point, honestly - I made that claim in August of last year, I believe - it's still the only thing you have on me. I have proven you wrong so many times since then, I'd need 1000s of lines to list them all. LOL!!!!

I never said the PS4's APIs would not be improved. However, I think there is significantly more room for improvement on the XB1 side than the PS4 side.

And yes, it is minor. You cows are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Lack of software optimization and poorly performing APIs easily dismiss the resolution/frame rate issue. The difference this gen is less than last gen, which wasn't that big to begin with.

@StormyJoe said:

@tormentos said:

@StormyJoe said:

Look, I have been writing software for... well, more years than I care to admit to. And, I will tell you first hand that optimized APIs can significantly improve an applications performance, just like poorly written APIs can cripple it. So without having any benchmark comparisons between DX 11's API performance and DX 12's API performance, making a blanket comment like "Its all because of hardware piece X" is nothing short of pure ignorance.

The difference between the PS4 and XB1 is, in the large scale of things, relatively minor. If you apply Moore's Law, the difference doesn't even amount to 1 CPU generation (2 years). So, is a 1-2 year old high end PC that much slower than a brand new high end PC?

Yeah and you claim the difference would be 3 to 5 frames per second at the same resolution and you were totally wrong.

Problem is all consoles improve by API and the PS4 will improve as well so it nos like the xbox one will improve while the PS4 stay static.

Minor.?

Up to 30 FPS advantage in Tomb Raider while having better textures,better effects is Minor.?

Dude the difference in Tomb raider is so damn big it make the xbox one seem like it has a 7770 while the PS4 has a 7950 or even worse.

You people don't actually quantify the difference you really aren't.

Look at the 7770 vs the 7850 the difference is 13 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7870 23 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7950 exactly 30 FPS...

How is it possible that the PS4 commands a lead which is as big as the one between the 7770 vs the 7950.?

On average the PS4 version is 21 FPS faster, that is 7770 vs 7870.

Oh and that is without taking into account that while the 7770 is 30 FPS slower than the 7950 is doing exactly the same graphics,image quality is the same under the same setting,on PS4 vs xbox one that isn't the case either,the xbox one version has alpha based effects in parts at half the resolution,lower quality depth of field,reduced levels of anisotropic filtering and some lower resolution textures and 900p cut scenes.

So not only the PS4 commands a lead which go up to 30FPS it also do so while having better image quality as well which would make the gap even bigger.

16 ROP isn't the problem since the 7790 has 16 ROP as well and hit 1080p easy,is ESRAM the problem alone side the xbox one reservation on a GPU that was already weaker to begin with.

You keep clinging to that one instance where I was incorrect. Despite the fact that I readily admit it. It's kind of an honor at this point, honestly - I made that claim in August of last year, I believe - it's still the only thing you have on me. I have proven you wrong so many times since then, I'd need 1000s of lines to list them all. LOL!!!!

I never said the PS4's APIs would not be improved. However, I think there is significantly more room for improvement on the XB1 side than the PS4 side.

And yes, it is minor. You cows are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Lack of software optimization and poorly performing APIs easily dismiss the resolution/frame rate issue. The difference this gen is less than last gen, which wasn't that big to begin with.

Difference less than last gen? What are you blind? You should just shut up now, you looking real dumb.

@highking_kallor said:

@StormyJoe said:

@tormentos said:

@StormyJoe said:

Look, I have been writing software for... well, more years than I care to admit to. And, I will tell you first hand that optimized APIs can significantly improve an applications performance, just like poorly written APIs can cripple it. So without having any benchmark comparisons between DX 11's API performance and DX 12's API performance, making a blanket comment like "Its all because of hardware piece X" is nothing short of pure ignorance.

The difference between the PS4 and XB1 is, in the large scale of things, relatively minor. If you apply Moore's Law, the difference doesn't even amount to 1 CPU generation (2 years). So, is a 1-2 year old high end PC that much slower than a brand new high end PC?

Yeah and you claim the difference would be 3 to 5 frames per second at the same resolution and you were totally wrong.

Problem is all consoles improve by API and the PS4 will improve as well so it nos like the xbox one will improve while the PS4 stay static.

Minor.?

Up to 30 FPS advantage in Tomb Raider while having better textures,better effects is Minor.?

Dude the difference in Tomb raider is so damn big it make the xbox one seem like it has a 7770 while the PS4 has a 7950 or even worse.

You people don't actually quantify the difference you really aren't.

Look at the 7770 vs the 7850 the difference is 13 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7870 23 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7950 exactly 30 FPS...

How is it possible that the PS4 commands a lead which is as big as the one between the 7770 vs the 7950.?

On average the PS4 version is 21 FPS faster, that is 7770 vs 7870.

Oh and that is without taking into account that while the 7770 is 30 FPS slower than the 7950 is doing exactly the same graphics,image quality is the same under the same setting,on PS4 vs xbox one that isn't the case either,the xbox one version has alpha based effects in parts at half the resolution,lower quality depth of field,reduced levels of anisotropic filtering and some lower resolution textures and 900p cut scenes.

So not only the PS4 commands a lead which go up to 30FPS it also do so while having better image quality as well which would make the gap even bigger.

16 ROP isn't the problem since the 7790 has 16 ROP as well and hit 1080p easy,is ESRAM the problem alone side the xbox one reservation on a GPU that was already weaker to begin with.

You keep clinging to that one instance where I was incorrect. Despite the fact that I readily admit it. It's kind of an honor at this point, honestly - I made that claim in August of last year, I believe - it's still the only thing you have on me. I have proven you wrong so many times since then, I'd need 1000s of lines to list them all. LOL!!!!

I never said the PS4's APIs would not be improved. However, I think there is significantly more room for improvement on the XB1 side than the PS4 side.

And yes, it is minor. You cows are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Lack of software optimization and poorly performing APIs easily dismiss the resolution/frame rate issue. The difference this gen is less than last gen, which wasn't that big to begin with.

Difference less than last gen? What are you blind? You should just shut up now, you looking real dumb.

Go find me some articles where the game developers say otherwise. There are a bunch out there that say the same thing I do.

Blah blah blah.., No matter how many times you repost the same stuff, it doesn't make you correct. Your argument is like someone saying to a mechanic "you will not improve power output on this carbureted engine by increasing air or fuel flow because the size of the cylinders isn't changing."

You are so bent on proving there is a difference, when I have never said there wasn't one. The PS4 has a better GPU - I have said that a hundred times before. I have also said the difference between the two does not equate to the PS4 being "50% more powerful", because that's an over simplification and just not true And, even if it *were* true, in computer terms that's not a very big difference. You obviously think it does, and that is where you are in error.

OK, @tormentos, before you reply, I want you to read what I have typed, and think about it for a minute. Both of these are real world cases.

1) Last year, my company had extra money at the end of the year in the IT budget, so we decided to upgrade our business layer servers which host web and windows services that our applications access business layer computations. We installed all new CPUs (4), each of which were about double the processing power of the ones that were replaced. When we fired up the servers and ran our stub tests we noticed (drum roll)... a 20% performance increase. Why? Because the difference in computing power is not linear to the performance bump of the services. The same situation happened when we upgraded our database servers last year.

2) While I find the EDMX to be cumbersome, and LINQ to be an abomination of data layer access, some of our apps use them anyway. Last month, we upgraded the version of the EDMX. No hardware upgrades, no OS upgrades, just .Net and the EDMX (which, btw, is an API). All of our applications got a speed bump... a big one Why? Because the LINQ APIs process data queries a lot faster than the previous version did (it also fixed a lot of short comings). So, and API update gave our applicaitons a speed bump.

The same thing applies to gaming consoles and games.

Sadly, he's an idiot and no matter how thorough, slow, and to the point you make your case he will simply Mooooo. You're wasting your breath, bro.

@rocky_denace: "Of course PS4 will continue to get better optimization but what your not considering is though why PS4 gets better small marginal updates "

STOP!

how the F could you know what kind of updates ps4 gets ?

Don't F with sony ICE team son

Finally someone else gets what I've been saying this whole time. I wouldn't bother with tormentos. I just ignore him and never respond.

You are an idiot and using car analogies like another moron did yesterday is a joke,there more to cars that output horse power,wind resistance,the right wheels,torque,weight and several over variables.

No matter what the damn xbox one GPU will not surpass or even catch the PS4 one because that imply that the PS4 will remain static while the other console improve which is as big as a joke as you are.

So to make the long story short,You were wrong and your predictions failed.

I have benchmarks on PC backing me up,which turn to be true,and i have PS4 benchmarks as well done by DF,the xbox one was heavily outdone in multiplatforms,in some by quite a big gap.

Actually performance speaking the gap can be bigger than 100% the whole 50% argument was shatter when games like Tomb Raider came out,not that it wasn't on launch when BF4 had like 75% advantage between resolution and frames,or ghost which had more than 100% difference in resolution.

The 7950 more than double the 7770 in power and deliver 30FPS advantage on Tomb Raider,now that is the same gap the PS4 has on the xbox one,were ever you like to admit it or not is your problem man up,you were wrong and the gap has been huge.

True is the PS4 should not be outdoing the xbox one by more than 16 or 17 frames,even less doubling it resolution wise,something is very wrong with the xbox hardware,pray to god it can be fix.

Dude i have no problem seeing how hardware can work better with better software,i know that in fact when the first dual core CPU came out there was barely any improvement running applications because the programs them self were not written to use multicore CPU,so once the programs were made to take advantage of milticore CPU there was a nice performance boots.

Now the problem i have is with your argument of just the xbox one will advance while the PS4 may remain static,because you think that developers have to complain about API or software so that sony improve things,which isn't the case and i showed you.

The PS4 will improve just like the xbox one will,there are problems software can't solve,hardware difference is one,ESRAM is a problem is to small just like EDRAM was to small on 360,this are things that happen once the hardware is done,MS first claimed with ATI that all games on 360 will be minimum 720p with 4XAA they latter found out it wasn't possible without tilling which was a problem,which is why few games on xbox 360 are 720p with 4XAA.

The same happen to MS here,ESRAM is to small,you can't fit everything in it,and you can do like turn 10 did with Forza put the sky which is static and barely does anything on the main memory and the cars on ESRAM,but anything significant can't be on the main memory because it is to slow and shared with the CPU.

Another thing is DX12 may help PC in some way,but MS console API wasn't a straight for of DX from PC,while i am not saying that the DX on xbox one was every bit as efficient as DX12 on PC,i know for fact that is no the same DX11.2 on PC to DX 12 on PC that DX on xbox one to DX12 PC,the console API is always lighter and more specialize even on 360 that was the case.

So don't spec the same gains on PC on consoles,porting DX 12 for PS4 would yield probably no gains,and who knows if it actually hold the hardware back,since sony push more to the metal than MS,in fact sony was to go down to driver level which is quite challenging.

Actually is because i am not an idiot that i know things don't work that way,claiming double performance is a joke without actually games showing it,at least AMD made benchamarks and you can use now Mantle is real,you don't have to wait until holiday 2015 to find out..lol

This and 1000 times this ^^...

Is basically wishful thinking the xbox one will improve from 7770 to 7950,the PS4 will improve from 7850 to 7850 OC...lol

Stormy Joe,and several other blind fanboys want to run with that sorry ass argument which is a joke,the new secret sauce is the xbox one will improve the PS4 will not,because it has no room for improvements.hahahahaa

You don't bother because you don't know what the fu** you are even arguing.

@StormyJoe said:

@highking_kallor said:

@StormyJoe said:

@tormentos said:

@StormyJoe said:

Look, I have been writing software for... well, more years than I care to admit to. And, I will tell you first hand that optimized APIs can significantly improve an applications performance, just like poorly written APIs can cripple it. So without having any benchmark comparisons between DX 11's API performance and DX 12's API performance, making a blanket comment like "Its all because of hardware piece X" is nothing short of pure ignorance.

The difference between the PS4 and XB1 is, in the large scale of things, relatively minor. If you apply Moore's Law, the difference doesn't even amount to 1 CPU generation (2 years). So, is a 1-2 year old high end PC that much slower than a brand new high end PC?

Yeah and you claim the difference would be 3 to 5 frames per second at the same resolution and you were totally wrong.

Problem is all consoles improve by API and the PS4 will improve as well so it nos like the xbox one will improve while the PS4 stay static.

Minor.?

Up to 30 FPS advantage in Tomb Raider while having better textures,better effects is Minor.?

Dude the difference in Tomb raider is so damn big it make the xbox one seem like it has a 7770 while the PS4 has a 7950 or even worse.

You people don't actually quantify the difference you really aren't.

Look at the 7770 vs the 7850 the difference is 13 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7870 23 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7950 exactly 30 FPS...

How is it possible that the PS4 commands a lead which is as big as the one between the 7770 vs the 7950.?

On average the PS4 version is 21 FPS faster, that is 7770 vs 7870.

Oh and that is without taking into account that while the 7770 is 30 FPS slower than the 7950 is doing exactly the same graphics,image quality is the same under the same setting,on PS4 vs xbox one that isn't the case either,the xbox one version has alpha based effects in parts at half the resolution,lower quality depth of field,reduced levels of anisotropic filtering and some lower resolution textures and 900p cut scenes.

So not only the PS4 commands a lead which go up to 30FPS it also do so while having better image quality as well which would make the gap even bigger.

16 ROP isn't the problem since the 7790 has 16 ROP as well and hit 1080p easy,is ESRAM the problem alone side the xbox one reservation on a GPU that was already weaker to begin with.

You keep clinging to that one instance where I was incorrect. Despite the fact that I readily admit it. It's kind of an honor at this point, honestly - I made that claim in August of last year, I believe - it's still the only thing you have on me. I have proven you wrong so many times since then, I'd need 1000s of lines to list them all. LOL!!!!

I never said the PS4's APIs would not be improved. However, I think there is significantly more room for improvement on the XB1 side than the PS4 side.

And yes, it is minor. You cows are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Lack of software optimization and poorly performing APIs easily dismiss the resolution/frame rate issue. The difference this gen is less than last gen, which wasn't that big to begin with.

Difference less than last gen? What are you blind? You should just shut up now, you looking real dumb.

Go find me some articles where the game developers say otherwise. There are a bunch out there that say the same thing I do.

Sure there are. If you can’t see the difference yourself then what can I do for you. I’m not buying you glasses chump. Get a job and buy them yourself. 1080p vs 720p is a lot bigger difference than last gen but whatever keep grasping for greatness.

Ok listen I say this based on as of now we can expect just basic updates but nothing like a complete tool set overhaul like DX12 for X!. This is based off of as of now Mantle is dead in the water for PS4. Sure that could change but likely not. And we have not heard of Sony announcing a complete new toolset that would be a complete redesign on how a GPU responds to an API app like DX12? So as of now we should expect PS4 to get basic updates but nothing of a complete overhaul of sorts like the X1 will get with the new age tech like DX12 that will make a GPU do things never before seen.

The cloud is a joke? HAHAHAHA, you're clearly the only joke here

Difference less than last gen? What are you blind? You should just shut up now, you looking real dumb.

Go find me some articles where the game developers say otherwise. There are a bunch out there that say the same thing I do.

Why don't you read the whole post? I never said they would be equal. Never. Nor did I say the PS4 wouldn't also improve. You are making shit up again...

The moon is made of cheese, huh?

Again... I have been writing software for quite some time. Optimized APIs do increase software performance. That's not speculation, it's fact.

The technology is new and I wouldn't expect indie and nobody's to understand it.

Dat P damage control.

@darkangel115: And that comes down to the devs....

@highking_kallor said:

@StormyJoe said:

@highking_kallor said:

@StormyJoe said:

@tormentos said:

@StormyJoe said:

Look, I have been writing software for... well, more years than I care to admit to. And, I will tell you first hand that optimized APIs can significantly improve an applications performance, just like poorly written APIs can cripple it. So without having any benchmark comparisons between DX 11's API performance and DX 12's API performance, making a blanket comment like "Its all because of hardware piece X" is nothing short of pure ignorance.

The difference between the PS4 and XB1 is, in the large scale of things, relatively minor. If you apply Moore's Law, the difference doesn't even amount to 1 CPU generation (2 years). So, is a 1-2 year old high end PC that much slower than a brand new high end PC?

Yeah and you claim the difference would be 3 to 5 frames per second at the same resolution and you were totally wrong.

Problem is all consoles improve by API and the PS4 will improve as well so it nos like the xbox one will improve while the PS4 stay static.

Minor.?

Up to 30 FPS advantage in Tomb Raider while having better textures,better effects is Minor.?

Dude the difference in Tomb raider is so damn big it make the xbox one seem like it has a 7770 while the PS4 has a 7950 or even worse.

You people don't actually quantify the difference you really aren't.

Look at the 7770 vs the 7850 the difference is 13 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7870 23 FPS,look at the difference between the 7770 and the 7950 exactly 30 FPS...

How is it possible that the PS4 commands a lead which is as big as the one between the 7770 vs the 7950.?

On average the PS4 version is 21 FPS faster, that is 7770 vs 7870.

Oh and that is without taking into account that while the 7770 is 30 FPS slower than the 7950 is doing exactly the same graphics,image quality is the same under the same setting,on PS4 vs xbox one that isn't the case either,the xbox one version has alpha based effects in parts at half the resolution,lower quality depth of field,reduced levels of anisotropic filtering and some lower resolution textures and 900p cut scenes.

So not only the PS4 commands a lead which go up to 30FPS it also do so while having better image quality as well which would make the gap even bigger.

16 ROP isn't the problem since the 7790 has 16 ROP as well and hit 1080p easy,is ESRAM the problem alone side the xbox one reservation on a GPU that was already weaker to begin with.

You keep clinging to that one instance where I was incorrect. Despite the fact that I readily admit it. It's kind of an honor at this point, honestly - I made that claim in August of last year, I believe - it's still the only thing you have on me. I have proven you wrong so many times since then, I'd need 1000s of lines to list them all. LOL!!!!

I never said the PS4's APIs would not be improved. However, I think there is significantly more room for improvement on the XB1 side than the PS4 side.

And yes, it is minor. You cows are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Lack of software optimization and poorly performing APIs easily dismiss the resolution/frame rate issue. The difference this gen is less than last gen, which wasn't that big to begin with.

Difference less than last gen? What are you blind? You should just shut up now, you looking real dumb.

Go find me some articles where the game developers say otherwise. There are a bunch out there that say the same thing I do.

Sure there are. If you can’t see the difference yourself then what can I do for you. I’m not buying you glasses chump. Get a job and buy them yourself. 1080p vs 720p is a lot bigger difference than last gen but whatever keep grasping for greatness.

LOL! I have a job, son. And, you need to read up on the topics before you post.

I'm gonna throw this out there to show how stupid some people get over these benchmarks

http://www.ign.com/articles/2010/08/26/xbox-360-vs-playstation-3-the-hardware-throwdown?page=1

as you see, basically it says the PS3 has a huge RAM advantage and overall more HP. but in the end all the multiplats ran better on xbox. hell some games like skyrim were downright unplayable but according to IGN the PS3 was way more powerful. how is this possible? Also this was only 3.5 years ago, so halfway through the gen.

also they said the GPU on the xbox is better due to the eDRAM, funny how some people say its a handicap all of a sudden? Sure wasn't a handicap last gen, and this gen it has 3 times the storage capacity and its a newer better version eSRAM.

we also seen charts like this saying otherwise

So what can we gather form this? Basically most of these articles mean nothing as most people online have no clue what they are talking about. Tormentos is living proof of that with his copy and paste jobs to try and prove his agenda.

Hahahahaha....keep drinking the kool aid.

@darkangel115: The PS3 didn't have a huge RAM advantage, it had a huge RAM disadvantage. 256 mb split pools of two separate types of memory were horrible, especially considering devs had to use the Cell to compensate for the lacking GPU. The faster ram was given to the cell while the slower ram was given to the GPU. It was a terrible design choice.