David Jaffe slams AAA games.

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TheEroica

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#1 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 19757 Posts

https://wccftech.com/gow-creator-david-jaffe-slams-aaa-games/

I have to post this article... Have to because it's what I've been saying for years watching the steady decline of risk taking in our AAA games...

The fact that he uses Uncharted to articulate the point just sweetens the pot as it is the perfect example of playing the same thing over and over again realizing you're not really there for the experience shifting interaction we should get in a video game, but rather to do the exact same things you did in every other uncharted game while they tell you a different story.

Now, there is nothing inherently wrong with producing games with similar gameplay. Our entire big budget scene is built around games that play 90 percent similar in scope and design and while set production in the games is at an all time high, OUR connection and experience of unique gaming experiences is losing.

As Jaffe says, "Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End has much better graphics and overall production, it still plays essentially the same as Uncharted 1: Drake’s Fortune."

In a follow up tweet... "The point of doing that is to say: what I did in 2001 with U1 PLAYS THE SAME (within most people's minds) as what I did in U4. At a pure mechanics level, the game isn't offering anything meaningfully new and FOR ME that is what I want in my games."

PERFECTLY STATED!

https://wccftech.com/gow-creator-david-jaffe-slams-aaa-games/

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scatteh316

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#2 scatteh316
Member since 2004 • 10273 Posts

Who?

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Vaasman

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#3 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15113 Posts
@scatteh316 said:

Who?

Famed creator of the smash hit Drawn to Death.

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deactivated-5c18005f903a1

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#4 deactivated-5c18005f903a1
Member since 2016 • 4626 Posts

David Jaffa cake is about as relevant as Cliffy B these days.

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scatteh316

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#5 scatteh316
Member since 2004 • 10273 Posts

His whole argument was destroyed within the first reply on Twitter...Lmao....

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Kusimeka

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#6 Kusimeka
Member since 2007 • 419 Posts

I agree with him, but his studio was closed and he's now out of business because of his "risk taking". He is evidence of why this continues to happen.

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SecretPolice

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#7 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 39544 Posts

SMH, Hipsters these dayzzzz. :P

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djoffer

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#8  Edited By djoffer
Member since 2007 • 1856 Posts

Good thing we have an increasingly growing A and AA scene that pumps out a ton of gems on pc( and eventually console if they go mainstream)!

But can’t really blame the big publishers to be honest, when the AAA games have budgets in the range of 300 mio $( including marketing) the room for error and risks isn’t big...

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Telekill

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#9 Telekill
Member since 2003 • 12061 Posts

Let's see... his biggest hits were God of War and Twisted Metal. He essentially made a worse version of Twisted Metal without cars in Drawn to Death. I couldn't even be bothered to play more than 5 matches before being sick of it.

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jun_aka_pekto

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#10  Edited By jun_aka_pekto
Member since 2010 • 25254 Posts

What did he play in 2001, again? It couldn't have been Uncharted 1, correct? Uncharted 1 came out in 2007.

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ellos

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#11  Edited By ellos
Member since 2015 • 2509 Posts

Its a valid criticism. It just happen to be across the board thing you get with game series. I don't think the game media is ready to be that critical.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#12 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29739 Posts

@boycie said:

David Jaffa cake is about as relevant as Cliffy B these days.

Yeah, it's one thing to talk about the glory days of gaming, its another to become grumpy old men who haven't produced a hit in too long. Even moreso for Jaffe.

Cliffy's piss poor attitude lately is poor sportmanship. Instead of getting back in the saddle he pisses and moans about his failure.

I wonder if Kojima will be just as upset when death stranding flops.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#13 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29739 Posts

@Kusimeka said:

I agree with him, but his studio was closed and he's now out of business because of his "risk taking". He is evidence of why this continues to happen.

And consumers don't take risks on new things so easily or at all. Same goes for films. People complain it's always the same marvel movies, but then they let Valerian and Widows flop at the box office.

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TryIt

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#14 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Bread_or_Decide said:
@Kusimeka said:

I agree with him, but his studio was closed and he's now out of business because of his "risk taking". He is evidence of why this continues to happen.

And consumers don't take risks on new things so easily or at all. Same goes for films. People complain it's always the same marvel movies, but then they let Valerian and Widows flop at the box office.

aint that the truth!

its like there is a huge part of the consumer market that needs permission from marketing in order to even consider something

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Bread_or_Decide

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#15 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29739 Posts

@tryit said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@Kusimeka said:

I agree with him, but his studio was closed and he's now out of business because of his "risk taking". He is evidence of why this continues to happen.

And consumers don't take risks on new things so easily or at all. Same goes for films. People complain it's always the same marvel movies, but then they let Valerian and Widows flop at the box office.

aint that the truth!

its like there is a huge part of the consumer market that needs permission from marketing in order to even consider something

People like whats familiar to them. Do you order from a new takeout joint every night or from the places you already know you like?

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TryIt

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#16  Edited By TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Bread_or_Decide said:
@tryit said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@Kusimeka said:

I agree with him, but his studio was closed and he's now out of business because of his "risk taking". He is evidence of why this continues to happen.

And consumers don't take risks on new things so easily or at all. Same goes for films. People complain it's always the same marvel movies, but then they let Valerian and Widows flop at the box office.

aint that the truth!

its like there is a huge part of the consumer market that needs permission from marketing in order to even consider something

People like whats familiar to them. Do you order from a new takeout joint every night or from the places you already know you like?

new take out..

when I was in the city :).

but to be fair almost always the same item from said menu :)

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MrGeezer

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#17  Edited By MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

@Bread_or_Decide said:
@Kusimeka said:

I agree with him, but his studio was closed and he's now out of business because of his "risk taking". He is evidence of why this continues to happen.

And consumers don't take risks on new things so easily or at all. Same goes for films. People complain it's always the same marvel movies, but then they let Valerian and Widows flop at the box office.

Yeah, that's the thing about risks: the reason they call it a risk is because there's a very real chance that it's gonna suck.

I totally get why people consume "safe" material like AAA games and big budget Hollywood blockbusters. And there's nothing even wrong with that. But those people ought to stop complaining about how there's "nothing new" any more. There's riskier stuff out there if they're willing to step outside of the AAA scene. And if they're not even willing to risk losing a few dollars by taking a chance on a riskier title, then why expect a game or movie company to take a risk by putting hundreds of millions of dollars on the line?

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Bread_or_Decide

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#18 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29739 Posts

@MrGeezer said:
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@Kusimeka said:

I agree with him, but his studio was closed and he's now out of business because of his "risk taking". He is evidence of why this continues to happen.

And consumers don't take risks on new things so easily or at all. Same goes for films. People complain it's always the same marvel movies, but then they let Valerian and Widows flop at the box office.

Yeah, that's the thing about risks: the reason they call it a risk is because there's a very real chance that it's gonna suck.

I totally get why people consume "safe" material like AAA games and big budget Hollywood blockbusters. And there's nothing even wrong with that. But those people ought to stop complaining about how there's "nothing new" any more. There's riskier stuff out there if they're willing to step outside of the AAA scene. And if they're not even willing to risk losing a few dollars by taking a chance on a riskier title, then why expect a game or movie company to take a risk by putting hundreds of millions of dollars on the line?

What's worse is people will double down on their rage/laughter at said risk, as if they get some sort of enjoyment that someone tried something different and failed.

see also, fallout 76, see also metal gear survive.

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MrGeezer

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#19 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

@Bread_or_Decide: Yeah. I mean, I was never going to play Fallout 76 anyway (online Fallout just isn't something that I'd ever be interested in), but it's not like I hate Bethesda for trying something different with the franchise.

But I'm not sure if Fallout 76 is the best example, since a lot of people are also hating on it for problems that are unrelated to "trying something different". Say what you will about the different approach, but they really ought to start polishing those games better before releasing them.

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uninspiredcup

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#20 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 48455 Posts

He's right, really. People are blinded by production values.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#21 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29739 Posts

@MrGeezer said:

@Bread_or_Decide: Yeah. I mean, I was never going to play Fallout 76 anyway (online Fallout just isn't something that I'd ever be interested in), but it's not like I hate Bethesda for trying something different with the franchise.

But I'm not sure if Fallout 76 is the best example, since a lot of people are also hating on it for problems that are unrelated to "trying something different". Say what you will about the different approach, but they really ought to start polishing those games better before releasing them.

I think the failed nature of the game makes those polish arguments louder than they normally are.

If the game is as good as fallout 4 and skyrim, polish doesn't matter as much.

People found a good time to pounce on Bethesda, and when it rains it pours.

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PC_Rocks

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#22 PC_Rocks
Member since 2018 • 6294 Posts

LOL says the guy that created the dumbed down DMC, didn't he on record saying that and admitting he has a more accessible flashy game.

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WitIsWisdom

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#23 WitIsWisdom
Member since 2007 • 7907 Posts

While I feel that most AAA games suck ass, saying that the 1st game and 4th game in a series play essentially the same, but have different elements, better graphincs moving forward, etc. is exactly what I look for in a game franchise I like.... I mean, look at what they did to Battlefield... what a sack of crap that has become.

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bussinrounds

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#24  Edited By bussinrounds
Member since 2009 • 3324 Posts
@Bread_or_Decide said:
@MrGeezer said:

@Bread_or_Decide: Yeah. I mean, I was never going to play Fallout 76 anyway (online Fallout just isn't something that I'd ever be interested in), but it's not like I hate Bethesda for trying something different with the franchise.

But I'm not sure if Fallout 76 is the best example, since a lot of people are also hating on it for problems that are unrelated to "trying something different". Say what you will about the different approach, but they really ought to start polishing those games better before releasing them.

I think the failed nature of the game makes those polish arguments louder than they normally are.

If the game is as good as fallout 4 and skyrim, polish doesn't matter as much.

People found a good time to pounce on Bethesda, and when it rains it pours.

Skyrim and Fallout 4 being crap was overlooked because the masses largely didn't know any better. But releasing Fallout 76 in this day and age, in the same month as RDR2....

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Nonstop-Madness

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#25 Nonstop-Madness
Member since 2008 • 10975 Posts

He's definitely right. The only core mechanic in U4 that isn't in U1 is the free flowing grappling hook (I think), but you could argue that it's just another refinement of an already existing mechanic just like how you fight multiple people at once etc.

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with_teeth26

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#26 with_teeth26
Member since 2007 • 10860 Posts

I agree with the man, i'm definitely getting bored of certain styles of gameplay AAA games keep going back to

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Sushiglutton

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#27  Edited By Sushiglutton
Member since 2009 • 8889 Posts

In a AAA game you control one character from a first or third person perspective. Gameplay is a combination of combat (ranged or melee), stealth, platforming/exploration and some puzzles. There are only so many ways you can vary these systems. If you're lucky you have one unique hook. Another factor is that players can't manage more complex control schemes than what is already out there.

So yeah AAA games are derivative.

BUT I really enjoy them for what they are. I also think they feel much better mechanically than they have ever done. Playing Spiderman atm and the gameplay is really smooth and well made. Is it innovative? Perhaps not. But I like gaming because of this style of design.

GoW was brilliant, so was Assassin's Creed Origins and Horizon. I just love AAA games of this gen.

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hrt_rulz01

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#28 hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 21223 Posts

He makes a valid argument.

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BenjaminBanklin

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#29 BenjaminBanklin
Member since 2004 • 9003 Posts
@boycie said:

David Jaffa cake is about as relevant as Cliffy B these days.

At least Cliffy B knew when to call it quits.

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Bread_or_Decide

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#30 Bread_or_Decide
Member since 2007 • 29739 Posts

@BenjaminBanklin said:
@boycie said:

David Jaffa cake is about as relevant as Cliffy B these days.

At least Cliffy B knew when to call it quits.

Well, he failed with lawbreakers, then got mad and went home with his ball.

Now he's got this whole karaoke thing going on in his twitter.

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Archangel3371

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#31 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 36481 Posts

Well speaking for myself I’m not really inclined to play something simply because it’s different. There’s a lot of various components in video games that capture my interest besides on whether the gameplay may be formulaic or not.

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TheEroica

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#32 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 19757 Posts

@Vaasman: @scatteh316: he created God of War and Twisted Metal.

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#33 cainetao11
Member since 2006 • 37333 Posts

@scatteh316 said:

Who?

The creator of God of War.

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That_Old_Guy

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#34 That_Old_Guy
Member since 2018 • 1233 Posts

As opposed to what? The A and AA tier shit that is on PC and is usually either not finished, never finished or just something like “Shower with Dad”.

Yeah that A/AA market on Steam is a real gold mine.

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nepu7supastar7

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#35  Edited By nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6209 Posts

@TheEroica:

Gonna have to disagree with Jaffe on that. Uncharted's gameplay has been refined and improved to greater heights. It's come a long way.

And it's funny hearing David Jaffe say that when he himself worked on games that pretty much played the same in sequels. Like Twisted Metal and God of War. The man is a hypocrite.

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FlawlessPoop

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#36 FlawlessPoop
Member since 2017 • 168 Posts

something new doesn't makes it good.

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#37 Macutchi
Member since 2007 • 8202 Posts

it's companies who do yearly instalments and / or repeat the same formula over multiple franchises that should be singled out. eliminate all those from the equation and mainstream gaming isn't in bad shape.

plus varying up a game's formula in an established franchise isn't always a good thing. ubisoft butchered splinter cell from chaos theory to blacklist

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TheEroica

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#38 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 19757 Posts

@nepu7supastar7: I don't wanna put words in the man's mouth, but to me, what he's saying is that games have a "genre experience saturation" problem that is growing among the hobby. He isn't arguing that Uncharted is the exact same specific button for button experience, he's saying that before even playing the game he is already familiar with 90 percent of the experience he will have with the game.... Its third person perspective, it's gun play, it's cinematic approaches and tropes...

To me he is calling out how we're beating a dead horse... Repeatedly... that were tricked into believing that plunking a camera in back of a character in an open world to play fetch is the best we can do... All games being simply an iteration of something that's already been done before, shuffled and painted differently.

Video games can be about anything and put you anywhere to interact with whatever you can dream of... After 30 years of gaming from the Atari to the ps4, it IS a little disappointing to know that big studios with big budgets can't/won't/don't know how to reach beyond a 10 percent difference between everything else out on the market, is sad...

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xhawk27

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#39 xhawk27
Member since 2010 • 11727 Posts

Maybe he should try and get a job at Microsoft since they are taking risks now. All Sony does is make the same type of game over and over.

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deactivated-5cd08b1605da1

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#40  Edited By deactivated-5cd08b1605da1
Member since 2012 • 9317 Posts

@boycie said:

David Jaffa cake is about as relevant as Cliffy B these days.

Came here just to say this. He created GoW. Hasnt done anything good ever since

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lundy86_4

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#41  Edited By lundy86_4
Member since 2003 • 59450 Posts

Well, he's certainly not wrong. Like any industry, they fall back on a "guaranteed" outcome with advancements. Look at any market, and see the minor steps taken between a multitude of companies. It serves to line their pockets, and corral the consumer. We'll see companies break the mold every so often, but it's no guarantee.

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deactivated-5cd08b1605da1

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#42 deactivated-5cd08b1605da1
Member since 2012 • 9317 Posts

@boycie said:

David Jaffa cake is about as relevant as Cliffy B these days.

Came here just to say this. He created GoW. Hasnt done anything good ever since

anyway, if sequels were completely original they wouldnt be called "sequels"...

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#43  Edited By BassMan
Member since 2002 • 14352 Posts

I have respect for Jaffe and generally agree with his opinion. I find the biggest issue is that not only have games become formulaic and stale, but companies are not even matching the quality of previous games in a franchise. It is quite sad to see new entries be significantly worse than previous ones. Companies really need to spend more time in pre-production and make sure the quality is going to be there instead of just trying to milk something. They also need to stop rushing games and release them when they are ready.

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nepu7supastar7

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#44 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6209 Posts

@TheEroica:

I dunno how you see us but we're not as stupid as you think we are. We know what we like and when the game play is done right, we'll keep dropping money into it for as long we're interested in it. Things come. They go. The franchise dies. That's how it works. If it works and people love it then do it.

It worked out for David Jaffe too with God of War and Twisted Metal. The sequels to both franchises play more or less the same but they did well because the fans loved the gameplay. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if the work has potential then work on improving it in the sequel.

We love familiarity in games. I for one would've been pissed off if Uncharted kept changing the gameplay mechanics every game. It takes away what made the game good in the first place. Then you end up like Square Enix with garbage sequels of Final Fantasy after Final Fantasy. Each with a more convoluted level up system and battle system than the last. At that point, it's not even worth getting good at it because they're just going to change it all again in the next game.

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#45  Edited By xantufrog  Moderator
Member since 2013 • 17088 Posts

I mean, I'm not a UC fan, but UC4 is dramatically improved MECHANICALLY over the first game and in level design. So his statement really isn't very accurate. That being said, sure, why not - blockbuster hollywood gaming isn't really the place to look for innovation now. Not a shaky limb to go out on

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tgob89

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#46 tgob89
Member since 2017 • 2153 Posts

Someone said something bad about Uncharted 4 = TheEroica agrees, Thread/

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#47  Edited By WhatAFailure
Member since 2017 • 600 Posts
@xhawk27 said:

Maybe he should try and get a job at Microsoft since they are taking risks now. All Sony does is make the same type of game over and over.

God of War 2018 was a huge change from the previous games - more open world, AI companion, and different camera perspective and RPG-esque upgrades, and not to mention a far more emotional narrative than the other ones

Horizon Zero Dawn - huge departure from Guerilla's previous Killzone games. Large open world adventure, set in the future with robotic dinos and deer, with the main weapon being primarily a bow-and-arrow only.

Spider-Man - Insomniac's first comic book game is also one of the best comic book games ever made.

Naughty Dog - going from Uncharted to The Last of Us, two very different games.

PSVR, Astrobots (likely GOTY for VR)

You're claiming Sony takes absolutely no chances and everything is a rehash, but you can clearly see that isn't the case. If anything, they're taking better risks than MS right now and that's why they're ahead.

And you also mean to tell me I won't see sequelitis on Xbox One? Forza, Halo, Gears 5 coming, Crackdown 3? Quantum Break and Sea of Thieves was a bit different but they didn't make enough of an impact. Sometimes just taking a risk and deviating from the norm isn't enough.

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deactivated-5d78760d7d740

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#48 deactivated-5d78760d7d740
Member since 2009 • 16386 Posts

He's not wrong about uncharted 4's gameplay, it's mostly the same just refined with some minor changes. Despite that, uncharted is one of my favourite game series of all time. The story was stellar and the set pieces were fun as hell to play. There are plenty of different experiences out there that scratch every itch in my opinion.

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dark_drag765

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#49  Edited By dark_drag765
Member since 2005 • 1017 Posts

@Vaasman: Oh come on, God of War and Twisted Metal are phenomenal. Jaffe can say whatever he wants imo

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Vaidream45

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#50 Vaidream45
Member since 2016 • 2116 Posts

I agree with him. AAA has become a rinse and repeat of the same crap over and over again with more micro transactions each year. Not a fan of the direction of the industry.