David Jaffe plays Metroid Dread.... (Must see lol)

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TheEroica

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#1 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 19757 Posts

David Jaffe has been overly critical of Metroid Dread post launch...so he streamed it, detailing his gripes... Let's just say he struggles greatly at both playing the game and detailing his points.

Also, side note - It's immediately clear how poor he is at this game. Just observing him play, it's highly unlikely he's gonna make it to the end. He doesn't seem to handle any enemy encounters with the slightest bit of finesse.

I, myself finished Dread and had a wonderful time with it. It's a solid 8.5 for me. Had no issues with level/game design. Got lost twice, but only for about a half hour or so. Completed first run with 65% of the map items. Toughest boss was definitely the final boss.

System wars, does David Jaffe have an opinion that matters to you on Metroid Dread? Is it fair to be so critical and fundementaly bad the game at the same time?

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#2 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
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I think it's easy for many to forget reviewers are just regular gamers; plenty put too much stock in their "work."

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TheEroica

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#3 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 19757 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer: in this case he's also a famous game designer... Makes the critique (and his gameplay) that much more interesting. Lol

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hardwenzen

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#4  Edited By hardwenzen
Member since 2005 • 14680 Posts

I hope i never become this bad at gaming. This is like watching Metro Exodus being played by IGN and Doom2016 by Polygon.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#5 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 47614 Posts

@TheEroica: *Was* a game designer. lol Now he just streams video games...

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DEVILinIRON

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#6 DEVILinIRON
Member since 2006 • 6921 Posts

That was awesome.

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robert_sparkes

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#7 robert_sparkes
Member since 2018 • 5696 Posts

Let me guess he raged quit.

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deactivated-618bc23e9b1c9

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#8 deactivated-618bc23e9b1c9
Member since 2007 • 7339 Posts

Not surprised he struggles with core games, given he's used to casual Sony titles. 🀣

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SecretPolice

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#9 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 39524 Posts

The 80's called, they want their side-scrollers back. lol :P

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Pedro

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#10 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 55392 Posts

So, views and experiences in a game are subjective. 😲 Not only do we have a thread on this already, another one was needed but if a mod makes it, well.πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

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Sushiglutton

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#11 Sushiglutton
Member since 2009 • 8889 Posts

Lol, ouch… I think he should just move on to something else and forget about this…

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Mesome713

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#12 Mesome713
Member since 2019 • 1701 Posts

This man is so bad at the game. My 8 year old daughter plays game better than this.

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dzimm

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#13 dzimm
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts

Metroid games have traditionally been Nintendo Hard, and Metroid Dread is no exception. It's not for the faint of heart, or YouTube jackoffs.

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mrbojangles25

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#15 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 51800 Posts

I think he has a valid criticism--there should have been some sort of indicator to the roof being destructible--but the issue here is that he is blowing things out of proportion and acting childish.

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

I think it's easy for many to forget reviewers are just regular gamers; plenty put too much stock in their "work."

@TheEroica said:

@Stevo_the_gamer: in this case he's also a famous game designer... Makes the critique (and his gameplay) that much more interesting. Lol

I know that's the case with games these days (and I'm sure a lot of other stuff) and the people that review them, but reviewers [in an ideal world] would have education and/or backgrounds in that field. They know how to write, they know the industry, and they know the history of that industry.

Reviews are ultimately subjective in the end, I won't dispute that, but that doesn't mean you can't make objective criticisms; there are industry standards and various metrics, so I think one's opinion of a game can be a mix of both.

That's why you have professional critics....and then jackasses on the internet. A professional food critic would eat a piece of jerky and be like "This is salty, but it is jerky, so it's OK. Jerky is a shelf-stable source of protein and the salt is necessary to make the food" while a jackass would be like "Ew this is too salty. Why is it so salty? Don't buy.". A good critic provides context.

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nintendoboy16

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#16  Edited By nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 39140 Posts

Remember guys, he used this experience and passed them off as legit flaws. And in the last thread, he got so much defense, even Champ and Conan got mixed in as Sheep in the last thread...

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Mesome713

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#17 Mesome713
Member since 2019 • 1701 Posts

@mrbojangles25: Yeah this dude is just a Jack Arse. We call him Jack Arse Jaffe now. Let the real critics do their thing.

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VFighter

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#18  Edited By VFighter
Member since 2016 • 10139 Posts

@mesome713: Casey you don't have kids, stop lying.

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Fedor

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#19  Edited By Fedor
Member since 2015 • 9365 Posts

Mad cause bad situation.

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dzimm

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#20  Edited By dzimm
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts
@mrbojangles25 said:

I think he has a valid criticism--there should have been some sort of indicator to the roof being destructible...

There is. In the opening hour of the game, it explicitly teaches you about things like destructible walls and secret passageways. The developers also do thing like place enemies on or near destructible segments to prompt the player to shoot at them, and the levels are designed in such a way that the player can clearly see a sealed off area which will encourage him to look for ways to enter it. What the game doesn't do is display a big, flashing arrow with a message reading, "Shoot this wall, dummy, it's destructible!" which seems to be David Gaffe's primary beef.

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Pedro

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#21 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 55392 Posts

@mrbojangles25: It feels like we go through this dance every time there is opinion on a game of that is popular. The argument of a game review being subjective is always dependent on whether that view is in alignment or disagreement do the gamer. When the view is in alignment, it is viewed as objective. When it is not in alignment it is viewed as subjective. This thread is using the ability of the player as criteria for the validity of an opinion. If his view was positive this thread would not have existed.

The funny thing about you analogy with the chef or professional food critic and the regular person is that both parties concluded that the jerk chicken was too salty.πŸ˜›

So while the food critic was able to give contex, the conclusion remain the same. However if their conclusions were different one would be viewed as more valid than the other depending on who is evaluating their views. If a person agrees with the the food critic then the food critic status would be used as validation. If a person disagrees with the food critic then the food critic title would be disregarded and made equivalent to any regular person. This is a common Behavior found in gaming.

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mrbojangles25

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#22  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 51800 Posts

@Pedro: haha I was thinking the same thing because I know I've had this argument with people on here before. It's a fun one for me because I am so thoroughly convinced I'm right, but I also know it's such a subjective, theoretical, and/or philosophical argument that anyone can be right :P

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Litchie

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#23  Edited By Litchie
Member since 2003 • 29408 Posts

Pretty embarrassing indeed.

"Just Look how many ways I can go... oh. But look how many.. oh. But loo.. oh."

Not sure why you couldn't just add it to the existing thread though.

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Solaryellow

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#24 Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 6387 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

I think he has a valid criticism--there should have been some sort of indicator to the roof being destructible--but the issue here is that he is blowing things out of proportion and acting childish.

There was an indicator.........in the title of the game. Anyone who has played any Metroid game is well aware it isn't the most hand-holding of games and many successes are the result of trial and error and in this case, a destructible block being the path out of a room.

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Pedro

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#25 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 55392 Posts

@dzimm said:

There is. In the opening hour of the game, it explicitly teaches you about things like destructible walls and secret passageways. The developers also do thing like place enemies on or near destructible segments to prompt the player to shoot at them, and the levels are designed in such a way that the player can clearly see a sealed off area which will encourage him to look for ways to enter it. What the game doesn't do is display a big, flashing arrow with a message reading, "Shoot this wall, dummy, it's destructible!" which seems to be David Gaffe's primary beef.

The game introducing a mechanic that the player does not experience on a regular basis would make that mechanic be forgotten. There are more sections in the game with explicit signs that the section is destroyable so why not make all non secret sections equally as explicit to the player? It is not a test of skill and neither is it clearly obvious. Numerous gamers on this forums has indicated they were stuck (not at this specific area) and these gamers loved the game but because he didn't, the critique isn't valid.

@Solaryellow said:

There was an indicator.........in the title of the game. Anyone who has played any Metroid game is well aware it isn't the most hand-holding of games and many successes are the result of trial and error and in this case, a destructible block being the path out of a room.

What is hand holding?

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theAM0G

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#26 theAM0G
Member since 2021 • 681 Posts

Yikes. That game looks poorly designed.

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nintendoboy16

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#27 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 39140 Posts

@Pedro said:

@Solaryellow said:

There was an indicator.........in the title of the game. Anyone who has played any Metroid game is well aware it isn't the most hand-holding of games and many successes are the result of trial and error and in this case, a destructible block being the path out of a room.

What is hand holding?

Making things too obvious as to what to do. Examples:

-Action-adventure games with indicators

-Tutorials every five seconds

Stuff like that.

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uninspiredcup

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#28 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 48448 Posts

Fascinating.

Loading Video...

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davillain-

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#29  Edited By davillain-  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 49044 Posts

@TheEroica: Not trying to be this guy, but what's the difference between this David Jaffe thread and the one we heavy discussion on This David Jaffe thread on this whole Metroid Dread outcry?

Edit: He's always been a jerk in the media but is a nice guy in person. Sadly I just don't care for this guy anymore on his media BS.

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Pedro

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#30  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 55392 Posts

@nintendoboy16 said:

Making things too obvious as to what to do. Examples:

-Action-adventure games with indicators

-Tutorials every five seconds

Stuff like that.

I am not sure how a tutorial is hand holding. Teaching the player how to play the game is integral to learning about the game.

Indicators are means of communicating mechanics or objectives to player.

Should games remove information about how to play the game because it would be "hand holding"?

Should games also remove feedback to the player because that would make things to obvious?

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templecow90999

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#31 templecow90999
Member since 2021 • 145 Posts

Gonna put this in a spoiler just in case.... here are my thoughts on the gameplay/design so far. No story spoilers I promise.

This weekend I reached the point of the game where I clearly had all the upgrades and the game was warning me I was soon to approach the final boss. I doubled back and got to work on 100% (which the game conveniently highlights the general area of those upgrades so you don't have to spend hours and hours bombing every wall).

As far as the game being a maze- I rarely felt that like I did in Super Metroid. I got lost many times in my first playthrough of Super. Dread does a decent job of funneling you in the right direction without holding your hand. There are a few times where you take a teleporter to a new area, find an upgrade, and have to double back to the area you were just in. I thought this was pretty obvious though. You could very well wander off and get lost if you'd like though- the game doesn't stop you from doing that.

Most of the mobility is straight forward and simple enough. A few moves you need to be quick enough to use as the emmi are chasing you- jump, slide, wall jump, climb, morph ball, dash, grapple beam, invisibility. Not impossible, but takes some quick reactions. You'll die plenty of times but the game respawns you right back.

I really dislike the grapple beam swing in this game, and having to swing from spot to spot. Super Metroid had floaty physics. Dread is much faster so the window to re-attach is very small. And when you're swinging back and forth it feels like you have no momentum. It can take many tries.

I like the shine-sparking a lot in this game- some really fun puzzles and ah-ha moments. I will admit they take precision and practice. But none of them are required for game progression, just 100%.

Boss fights are not that hard. Perhaps frustrating that you can't take many hits but that's typical for Metroid games. People complaining about them are just the ones that want to spam missiles into the bosses and not have to learn the patterns or dodge any attacks.

Game is a solid 9/10 for me. A game I will replay every so often just like I do Super and Prime 1. I would rank it 3rd in the series just behind those ones.

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dzimm

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#32  Edited By dzimm
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts
@Pedro said:
@dzimm said:

There is. In the opening hour of the game, it explicitly teaches you about things like destructible walls and secret passageways. The developers also do thing like place enemies on or near destructible segments to prompt the player to shoot at them, and the levels are designed in such a way that the player can clearly see a sealed off area which will encourage him to look for ways to enter it. What the game doesn't do is display a big, flashing arrow with a message reading, "Shoot this wall, dummy, it's destructible!" which seems to be David Gaffe's primary beef.

The game introducing a mechanic that the player does not experience on a regular basis would make that mechanic be forgotten. There are more sections in the game with explicit signs that the section is destroyable so why not make all non secret sections equally as explicit to the player? It is not a test of skill and neither is it clearly obvious. Numerous gamers on this forums has indicated they were stuck (not at this specific area) and these gamers loved the game but because he didn't, the critique isn't valid.

Non-obvious destructible walls are used frequently throughout the game, so you'd have to be a moron to forget that the mechanic exists.

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TheEroica

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#33 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 19757 Posts

@davillain-: didn't even know there was a thread. I looked on the main page and didn't see it... This video was released yesterday. Is the other thread from yesterday?

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Litchie

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#34 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 29408 Posts

@TheEroica: https://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/david-jaffe-famous-game-creator-says-metroid-dread-33570206/

4
days ago.

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madsnakehhh

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#35 madsnakehhh
Member since 2007 • 17497 Posts

He clearly sucks at games but most important ... he is doing it for the views, in fact i'm more surprised by how much attention he is getting with his nonsensical and unfounded views.

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TheEroica

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#37 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 19757 Posts

@Litchie: Ahhh... I was basing the thread off the day old video I was watching highlighting how bad he was at the game. Lol. Didn't realize it was a topic 4 days ago.

We can lock it if it's old news.

Was pretty shocked how he was playing a genre he presumably grew up with and had such little skill.

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Litchie

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#38 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 29408 Posts

@TheEroica: Nah, don't lock it. It's funny. :3

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Pedro

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#39  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 55392 Posts
@dzimm said:

Non-obvious destructible walls are used frequently throughout the game, so you'd have to be a moron to forget that the mechanic exists.

The irony in your response doesn't bode well with your point. πŸ˜‚

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nepu7supastar7

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#40 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6208 Posts

God, I am always amazed at how bad David's opinions are. How could someone who created such awesome things like Twisted Metal and God of War be so out of touch with the gamer community?? Is it his ego? This is the same guy who said that gamers supposedly don't care about actually owning their games! πŸ˜‚ I guess that's why I'm not surprised he doesn't like Metroid Dread. It doesn't constantly hold your hand and tell you exactly where to go and how to do it. You're supposed to destroy walls? Who knew - except literally everyone who played Metroid?!

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jaydan

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#42 jaydan
Member since 2015 • 5455 Posts

@nepu7supastar7: Psshhh, you're not allowed to criticize or declare incompetence in a game dev; the fact that he has made a game before makes him immune to criticism like that. Because he's made a video game before: his opinion, however faulty it is, is above yours.

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enzyme36

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#43 enzyme36
Member since 2007 • 5230 Posts

Were not doing this again. For the idiots that cant find the breakable blocks... try using the in game skill they give you that makes them glow. IF you get stuck before you get this skill... I wont be mad if you put the game down and play something easier for you.

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davillain-

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#44 davillain-  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 49044 Posts

@Litchie said:

@TheEroica: Nah, don't lock it. It's funny. :3

I agree, lets leave this alone and I already posted my opinion in that other thread so no point of me doing it here. Anyway, I'll have no part in this crazy outcry which I'm still surprised everyone's still talking about David Jaffe.

It's cool Garrus, lets leave it open...IMO.

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Solaryellow

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#45  Edited By Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 6387 Posts
@Pedro said:
@Solaryellow said:

There was an indicator.........in the title of the game. Anyone who has played any Metroid game is well aware it isn't the most hand-holding of games and many successes are the result of trial and error and in this case, a destructible block being the path out of a room.

What is hand holding?

Now if I told you that would be hand holding. Giving you the solution to a problem or a question is the answer. Telling you where to go, how to get there, what to do, etc..,

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above_average

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#46  Edited By above_average
Member since 2021 • 125 Posts
@shadyacshuns said:

Not surprised he struggles with core games, given he's used to casual Sony titles. 🀣

Umm no.

He vocally loves gamepass and the low budget indie games that xbox puts out most with with virtually no difficulty to speak of. He champions indie games that look similar Dread.

Also, where did you get the idea that Sony 1st party titles are easy?

Most of them (Days Gone, TLOU2, GOW ect) require above average gaming skill to even beat the normal setting. In comparison games like Sea of Thieves, which Jaffe loved, virtually plays it self.

FYI: Jaffe is also vocally trasparent about hating the big budget AAA games Sony makes and refused to even try GOW 2018 until this year. You're both uninformed and dishonest.

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dzimm

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#47 dzimm
Member since 2006 • 6573 Posts
@Pedro said:
@dzimm said:

Non-obvious destructible walls are used frequently throughout the game, so you'd have to be a moron to forget that the mechanic exists.

The irony in your response doesn't bode well with your point. πŸ˜‚

In what way is my statement ironic? The game explicitly teaches that not all destructible walls are obvious, and there are hints all throughout the game with the placement of enemies encouraging you to "accidentally" shoot a destructible wall section, and areas visible just beyond the edges of the screen with no obvious path that serve as a constant reminder for all but the most clueless gamers that destructible walls are a thing.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#48 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 47614 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

I think he has a valid criticism--there should have been some sort of indicator to the roof being destructible--but the issue here is that he is blowing things out of proportion and acting childish.

I know that's the case with games these days (and I'm sure a lot of other stuff) and the people that review them, but reviewers [in an ideal world] would have education and/or backgrounds in that field. They know how to write, they know the industry, and they know the history of that industry.

Reviews are ultimately subjective in the end, I won't dispute that, but that doesn't mean you can't make objective criticisms; there are industry standards and various metrics, so I think one's opinion of a game can be a mix of both.

That's why you have professional critics....and then jackasses on the internet. A professional food critic would eat a piece of jerky and be like "This is salty, but it is jerky, so it's OK. Jerky is a shelf-stable source of protein and the salt is necessary to make the food" while a jackass would be like "Ew this is too salty. Why is it so salty? Don't buy.". A good critic provides context.

I don't disagree.

I think the point of the matter was that there shouldn't be presumptions. We all enjoy games but we aren't all great at playing every game. Criticism should be able to be explained and demonstrated, however.

I can play stream (badly) my playthrough on Demon's Souls and critique the silly difficulty and rinse/repeat playstyles, but I'm fairly confident Twitch would ban me for the excessive language.

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#49 GirlUSoCrazy
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#50 Renegade_Fury
Member since 2003 • 21298 Posts

I'm 60% of the way through, and if I had to describe Dread, I'd call it an unapologetic Metroid sequel. So if you're a newcommer I can understand not being able to identify hidden blocks since that isn't a typical game convention.