Crossgen leave a bitter taste

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sakaiXx

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#1 sakaiXx  Online
Member since 2013 • 12059 Posts

Come on Sony lets leave the 2013 console behind. I expect to play GT7 with extreme weather and day night cycle like GT6. Cross gen development is disgusting blergh what they will compromise on next gen to allow featutes in last gen especially with tentpole title like GT7. I consider this even worst than Nintendo releasing more last gen ports on Nintendo switch and call it a day, than actually making new games. Wait, maybe not, nothing is worst than Nintendo what am I thinking.

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JasonOfA36

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#2  Edited By JasonOfA36
Member since 2016 • 3207 Posts

Sony can't ignore money, therefore, they can't ignore that 116 million PS4 units sold.

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Pedro

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#3 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@sakaixx:

Can you share how support of 2013 consoles is a problem?

PS: The forum is shit today. It is as if it is running on a Pentium I with 16MB of RAM.

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onesiphorus

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#4 onesiphorus
Member since 2014 • 3962 Posts

@Pedro said:

@sakaixx:

Can you share how support of 2013 consoles is a problem?

PS: The forum is s*** today. It is as if it is running on a Pentium I with 16MB of RAM.

I thought that GameSpot fixed its infamous forum glitches years ago, but it seems they are coming back.

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Archangel3371

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#5 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 35253 Posts

Meh. Iā€™m perfectly fine with cross gen games myself. šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø

Yes, GameSpot forums seem to be having a meltdown today. šŸ˜…

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lamprey263

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#6 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 39339 Posts

Most cows don't buy into the bullshit they hold against MS, they just want to tear into MS, it would seem hypocritical until you realize they are consistent on this.

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nintendoboy16

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#7 nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 38394 Posts

I hate to break it to you, TC. But scalpers are still pillaging supply of the new consoles. Plus, there is that chip shortage thing...

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pmanden

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#8 pmanden
Member since 2016 • 1610 Posts

Yeah, I definitely feel that bitter taste in my mouth. Or maybe it is just the bitterness from the cold Kronenbourg beer I am currently drinking...?

But seriously, cross-gen and BC are becoming increasingly important, so you just have to live with PS5 games that are being dragged down by PS4 requirements. If it hurts too much, don't buy next-gen consoles as soon as they are released. Wait two years or so.

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me2002

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#9 me2002
Member since 2002 • 2789 Posts

I am very disgusted by this too. GoW2 as well I heard?

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Gym_Lion

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#10 Gym_Lion
Member since 2020 • 1358 Posts

I think devs are smart enough to scale games accordingly. After all they've been doing it on the PC for decades.

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LuxuryHeart

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#11 LuxuryHeart
Member since 2017 • 1357 Posts

@jasonofa36 said:

Sony can't ignore money, therefore, they can't ignore that 116 million PS4 units sold.

It's smart business. Why do you think GTA V is so dominant? They released the game on the PS3, the Xbox 360, the PS4, the Xbox One, and the PC. Of course the online is huge, but like we can't ignore that they likely got 35-45 million of their sales from the PS3 and Xbox 360.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#12 GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 13176 Posts

Hard to complain when Sony does this, their games still look next gen even on last gen hardware.

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Pedro

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#13 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@girlusocrazy said:

Hard to complain when Sony does this, their games still look next gen even on last gen hardware.

What makes the games look next gen?

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DaVillain-

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#14  Edited By DaVillain-  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 46972 Posts

@Pedro said:

@sakaixx:

Can you share how support of 2013 consoles is a problem?

PS: The forum is shit today. It is as if it is running on a Pentium I with 16MB of RAM.

While I can't speak for sakaixx or any PS5 owners, here's my take. It creates hard-bottleneck for game design and requires significantly more development resources to ensure performance is acceptable on the lower spec. Xbox One and PS4 CPU aka Jaguar are dogshit and were already dogshit back in 2013 which console developers complaining about.

On the other hand, cross-gen just makes sense IMO. The install base of a new consoles is gonna be really small, so adoption rates for next-gen only games will be even smaller. That is pretty hard to justify for a 3rd-party studio. Overall, developing games has drastically increase and gotta recoup the revenue somehow so cross-gen it is since PS4 is well over 100 million sold vs so little on PS5 due to short supplies.

Either way, PS5 versions will no doubt be the best versions despite cross-gen effect and games like Miles Morales between PS4 to PS5 is clearly day/night.

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uninspiredcup

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#15  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 45724 Posts

I like the idea tbh. Stuff like Sonic The Hedgehog MS/GEN or Splinter Cell: Double Agent where the last and next generation titles share pillars but are essentially different games.

That's interesting.

If it's just the same game but watered down. Eh. And that probably will be the case for practically every game since it's less work.

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Norri

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#16 Norri
Member since 2020 • 51 Posts

Sony is having problems with the production of ps5, which causes them to not be able to sell enough units and that leads to the sales that they initially projected for their games are not what they had in mind, are not enough. That is why, for me, games like god of war and others are going to be crossgen or they are going to be delayed.

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hardwenzen

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#17 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 9753 Posts
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NathanDrakeSwag

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#18 NathanDrakeSwag
Member since 2013 • 16345 Posts

@hardwenzen said:
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Sony's just waiting for archangel to finally get that PS4 he's been wanting for 7 years. No gamer left behind is Sony's motto.

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xantufrog

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#19 xantufrog  Moderator
Member since 2013 • 16184 Posts

You know, these kind of debates and the marketing bullshit behind them are just part of why console gaming is frustrating. You get people yammering on about "true next gen" titles in dark corners of the web like this instead of whether the games are actually creative and fun, corps lying to them in marketing to give the illusion that that is what they are getting if they BUY BUY NOW!!!, and then consumers being annoyed that others get to enjoy the game that they do on different hardware when the exclusivity or cross generational support lines they were fed turned out to be lies.

Hardware wars get in the way of us supporting each other and simply enjoying good software

āœŒ

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HalcyonScarlet

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#20 HalcyonScarlet
Member since 2011 • 10080 Posts

@davillain- said:

While I can't speak for sakaixx or any PS5 owners, here's my take. It creates hard-bottleneck for game design and requires significantly more development resources to ensure performance is acceptable on the lower spec. Xbox One and PS4 CPU aka Jaguar are dogshit and were already dogshit back in 2013 which console developers complaining about.

On the other hand, cross-gen just makes sense IMO. The install base of a new consoles is gonna be really small, so adoption rates for next-gen only games will be even smaller. That is pretty hard to justify for a 3rd-party studio. Overall, developing games has drastically increase and gotta recoup the revenue somehow so cross-gen it is since PS4 is well over 100 million sold vs so little on PS5 due to short supplies.

Either way, PS5 versions will no doubt be the best versions despite cross-gen effect and games like Miles Morales between PS4 to PS5 is clearly day/night.

Agree. In terms of GT7, it's a simulator, so the CPU is important, no?

The difference between Forza Motorsport in this case, is that MS will likely have a couple more before the gen is out. But there may be huge gaps in between the main GT games, so it might be a while before you get one that makes use of the more advanced CPUs. Wasn't GT6 9 years ago?

In terms of business, yeah it makes loads of sense.

It's just amusing that the exclusive proud cows have to deal with this. Otherwise it's not a bad thing for the majority of games. But in GT7s case it's a bit of a shame imo. A console sim designed for a decent 16 thread CPU.

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pyro1245

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#21  Edited By pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 7644 Posts

They should have put an SSD and a decent CPU in the PS4 and X1. It was pathetic. They created this mess and thanks to the chip shortage they didn't sell enough PS5s to make all the software money they want.

It would have cost us maybe $100 more last gen, most games wouldn't have performed like ass on consoles the last 7 years, and cross-gen wouldn't be an issue right now.

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uninspiredcup

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#22  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 45724 Posts

@xantufrog said:

You know, these kind of debates and the marketing bullshit behind them are just part of why console gaming is frustrating. You get people yammering on about "true next gen" titles in dark corners of the web like this instead of whether the games are actually creative and fun, corps lying to them in marketing to give the illusion that that is what they are getting if they BUY BUY NOW!!!, and then consumers being annoyed that others get to enjoy the game that they do on different hardware when the exclusivity or cross generational support lines they were fed turned out to be lies.

Hardware wars get in the way of us supporting each other and simply enjoying good software

āœŒ

Subjective. But still bet average joe spending Ā£500 on a cheap laptop would probably get more out of it gameplay wise than a next-gen console had they not give a shit about graphics.

The actual graphic upgrade itself, at least at launch, isn't terribly impressive.

Aside from Flight Simulator (which is PC only atm), eh....

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WitIsWisdom

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#23 WitIsWisdom
Member since 2007 • 7478 Posts

The problem with cross gen and SONY is that it often times doesn't work at all. Take the Chivalry II beta for example... they were REALLY pushing the whole cross gen/multiplat thing and me being on PS5 couldn't play with any of my SONY friends since they all still have PS4's... The supposed work around was to switch accounts after turning share play off on the main account, and then logging into another user and downloading it there instead since it wouldn't show that user bought the full game, but that didn't work. The only other solution I found was that I would need to start the PS4 beta download on a PS4 with a joint account and then it would pop up in the PS5 library as an option to download the PS4 beta.

Why in the hell would I need to do that though? Why not just give PS5 users the option to download the PS4 beta like other games? I unplugged my PS4 and put it away after I got the PS5... Just a pain in the ass and I'm not sure if things like this are the fault of the devs or SONY but either way it's unacceptable and needs to be a priority. The problem is that this has happened across multiple games now and they don't seem to even acknowledge it's an issue.

the PS5 wasn't ready in many aspects and it's pretty obvious when there are CONSTANT reminders in downloads and playing cross gen.

Another issue is that if you download a game after purchasing it for the PS5 there is no way to download things in pieces like you can on PS4 or in betas in many cases (I think it has something to do with licensing). For example the only way I can play Warzone is to download the entirety of either Modern Warfare or Cold War and all the multiplayer modes and campaign before then being able to download Warzone (you know the free to play battle royale that is supposedly a separate entity?). This is all because I bought the full game and for whatever reason the console thinks it can't split them up... even though that's supposedly the entire point...

Those who want to download ONLY Warzone must not have purchased the full game (while on a PS5) unless they want to take up and extra 200gb of space by downloading every other section of the game first. If you think downloading and then deleting certain sections works, well think again. It simply redownloads the extra portions of the game while the PS5 is in sleep mode or constantly pops up with no way to disable even if you turn off automatic downloads (which even if this did work ((which once again it doesn't)) would mean every time I got on to play I would have to wait through patch updates). They could probably fix this issue fairly easily with a multitude of different options, but it seems as though they don't care. You can delete the extra sections as often as you want, but they will keep reinitiating as parts of the game that are crucial to Warzone even though they aren't.

I bring these two examples up as a couple of a larger handful. I could easily go into things like trophy integration not being cross gen.. which makes absolutely no sense at all.

I love my PS5, but there are definitely a lot of kinks that still need to be sorted out and some of the ones I described above are asinine and seem less like a mistake rather than an omission due to laziness... so when SONY says they believe in generations.. well, you better believe it, because even though titles are cross gen that doesn't necessarily mean you can play them cross platform.. which to me doesn't make any damn sense at all.

I'm not bashing the PS5 because I love the console overall and I'm still looking for an XSX. Just telling it like it is.

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Litchie

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#24 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 28121 Posts

So you guys are now experiencing what PC gamers have since 2007? Your games are being held back by shit console hardware? Welcome to the club.

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VFighter

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#25 VFighter
Member since 2016 • 8836 Posts

@pyro1245: So you think hard drives are what was causing games to "perform like ass" last gen? šŸ¤£

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Howmakewood

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#26 Howmakewood
Member since 2015 • 6804 Posts

@girlusocrazy: so you still want forced slow walk segments in new God of war?

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D3TOXED

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#27 D3TOXED
Member since 2021 • 16 Posts

@pyro1245 said:

They should have put an SSD and a decent CPU in the PS4 and X1. It was pathetic. They created this mess and thanks to the chip shortage they didn't sell enough PS5s to make all the software money they want.

It would have cost us maybe $100 more last gen, most games wouldn't have performed like ass on consoles the last 7 years, and cross-gen wouldn't be an issue right now.

People should put their own SSDs in the PS4. It's cheap. Makes the system a lot smoother.

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xantufrog

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#28  Edited By xantufrog  Moderator
Member since 2013 • 16184 Posts

@d3toxed: not really, no. It has been tested. The hard drive controller on the base ps4 was designed around the 5400rpm platter and the speed gains with an ssd are virtually nil. The PS4 Pro fared a little better on specific games, iirc, but not much better overall

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sakaiXx

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#29 sakaiXx  Online
Member since 2013 • 12059 Posts

@Litchie said:

So you guys are now experiencing what PC gamers have since 2007? Your games are being held back by shit console hardware? Welcome to the club.

Blergh pc ecosystem sucks.

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Pedro

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#30 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@davillain- said:

While I can't speak for sakaixx or any PS5 owners, here's my take. It creates hard-bottleneck for game design and requires significantly more development resources to ensure performance is acceptable on the lower spec. Xbox One and PS4 CPU aka Jaguar are dogshit and were already dogshit back in 2013 which console developers complaining about.

But the reality is game design has remain relatively unchanged for the past 2 decades. You say that it would require significantly more development resources but where is the data to validate that claim? People keep making this claim without any backing and it also lacks logic. Couple this with the fact these games were already being design for the PS4 to begin with. This ongoing fallacy needs to stop or data provided to validate these assertions.

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WonderWinner

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#31 WonderWinner
Member since 2021 • 1045 Posts

Nah it's fine. If anything, it means it's easier to achieve 60fps with the new games.

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firedrakes

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#32 firedrakes
Member since 2004 • 3174 Posts

@pyro1245 said:

They should have put an SSD and a decent CPU in the PS4 and X1. It was pathetic. They created this mess and thanks to the chip shortage they didn't sell enough PS5s to make all the software money they want.

It would have cost us maybe $100 more last gen, most games wouldn't have performed like ass on consoles the last 7 years, and cross-gen wouldn't be an issue right now.

also a dam gen 2 or 3 controller. idk both console used a gen 1 sata controller till refresh of console.

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Litchie

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#33  Edited By Litchie
Member since 2003 • 28121 Posts

@sakaixx said:
@Litchie said:

So you guys are now experiencing what PC gamers have since 2007? Your games are being held back by shit console hardware? Welcome to the club.

Blergh pc ecosystem sucks.

Doesn't stop PC from being way the **** better than consoles though.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#34 GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 13176 Posts

@Litchie: Except for sitting down to play a game but end up doing troubleshooting instead

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mojito1988

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#35 mojito1988
Member since 2006 • 4414 Posts

@Litchie said:

So you guys are now experiencing what PC gamers have since 2007? Your games are being held back by shit console hardware? Welcome to the club.

This.

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Litchie

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#36 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 28121 Posts

@girlusocrazy said:

@Litchie: Except for sitting down to play a game but end up doing troubleshooting instead

That does suck. Happens rarely (for me) and the benefits with PCs outweighs the bad, though.

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flashn00b

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#37 flashn00b
Member since 2006 • 3898 Posts

Considering how FUBAR the gaming hardware market is right now, crossgen is more or less mandatory since scalpers won't care about buying games for a system that they want to sell at >250% of its MSRP

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AcidTango

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#38  Edited By AcidTango
Member since 2013 • 2236 Posts

I'm kind of mixed on cross gen. I don't mind Sony releasing their latest games this year on on both PS4 and PS5 since the PS5 isn't a year old yet and lots of people are still playing on their PS4 so it makes sense financially to release their games on both systems.

However for their games in 2022 such as the next God Of War and Gran Turismo 7, they should be on PS5 only because at this point the PS4 is getting very old, and they need people to start buying the PS5. Plus I worry that the games won't be in their full potential and have to be downgraded because of the PS4 holding them back.

I feel the same for Halo Infinite being released on the Xbox One as well. That game should only be released on the Xbox Series X/S and PC in my opinion.

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Pedro

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#39 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@AcidTango said:

I'm kind of mixed on cross gen. I don't mind Sony releasing their latest games this year on on both PS4 and PS5 since the PS5 isn't a year old yet and lots of people are still playing on their PS4 so it makes sense financially to release their games on both systems.

However for their games in 2022 such as the next God Of War and Gran Turismo 7, they should be on PS5 only because at this point the PS4 is getting very old, and they need people to start buying the PS5. Plus I worry that the games won't be in their full potential and have to be downgraded because of the PS4 holding them back.

I feel the same for Halo Infinite being released on the Xbox One as well. That games should only be released on the Xbox Series X/S and PC in my opinion.

If the games can run on the PS4, why not make the games available on the system? People should start buying PS5 because you think they should? Would be fine with me deciding your purchasing decisions?

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WonderWinner

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#40 WonderWinner
Member since 2021 • 1045 Posts

It doesn't make a difference to me. If anything it'll make this gen last longer which I'll always welcome.

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Pedro

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#41 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@wonderwinner said:

It doesn't make a difference to me. If anything it'll make this gen last longer which I'll always welcome.

Probably the only thing that you have written that I agree with. šŸ˜Ž

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AcidTango

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#42 AcidTango
Member since 2013 • 2236 Posts

@Pedro:

I'm not telling you what you can or can't buy. If people don't want to buy the newest consoles right now then that's fine. I don't plan to buy the PS5 or Xbox Series X anytime soon ether. But I don't want future games to be downgraded because the older consoles might hold them back.

I get what you're saying about how you don't want people to be forced to buy the newer consoles right away, but eventually we all have to move on to the newer consoles and for future games to be developed at their full potential.

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Pedro

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#43  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@AcidTango said:

@Pedro:

I'm not telling you what you can or can't buy. If people don't want to buy the newest consoles right now then that's fine. I don't plan to buy the PS5 or Xbox Series X anytime soon ether. But I don't want future games to be downgraded because the older consoles might hold them back.

I get what you're saying about how you don't want people to be forced to buy the newer consoles right away, but eventually we all have to move on to the newer consoles and for future games to be developed at their full potential.

There is no evidence behind the concern or claim of games being downgraded. If we are talking about graphics, the only feature that is next gen is ray tracing and that feature togglable. So, as far as I am concerned, no one should be concerned about the "held back" boogeyman. šŸ˜Š

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AcidTango

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#44 AcidTango
Member since 2013 • 2236 Posts

@Pedro said:

There is no evidence behind the concern or claim of games being downgraded. If we are talking about graphics, the only feature that is next gen is ray tracing and that feature togglable. So, as far as I am concerned, no one should be concerned about the "held back" boogeyman. šŸ˜Š

Pretty sure there have been many issues of games being held back because of older hardware. This isn't some "held back" conspiracy. This has been happening for a while now.

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Pedro

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#45  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@AcidTango said:

Pretty sure there have been many issues of games being held back because of older hardware. This isn't some "held back" conspiracy. This has been happening for a while now.

Well, if there are that many issues with games being held back you should be able to provide ample amount evidence to this claim.

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AcidTango

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#46 AcidTango
Member since 2013 • 2236 Posts

@Pedro said:
@AcidTango said:

Pretty sure there have been many issues of games being held back because of older hardware. This isn't some "held back" conspiracy. This has been happening for a while now.

Well, if there are that many issues with games being held back you should be able to provide ample amount evidence to this claim.

You might want to search on Google. You will get a huge lists of examples.

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Pedro

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#47 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@AcidTango said:

You might want to search on Google. You will get a huge lists of examples.

So you have nothing. šŸ™„

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#48 AcidTango
Member since 2013 • 2236 Posts

@Pedro said:
@AcidTango said:

You might want to search on Google. You will get a huge lists of examples.

So you have nothing. šŸ™„

Here is a video about downgrades.

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And yes I know that this video is about PC games being downgraded because of consoles but the same can be said about games being made on both newer and older consoles as well. So don't tell me that downgrades don't exist when they do.

And again I'm not upset that Sony is doing cross gen with their current games. I get it, they can make more money by releasing those games on the PS4 and it's good for PS4 owners who don't have a PS5 yet. And maybe the new God Of War and Gran Turismo 7 won't be downgraded and hopefully both games will still end up being amazing.

But in the future when game developers are able to utilize the PS5 more and the PS4 getting older and older, eventually Sony will have to move on from the PS4. Now if you still disagree with me then that's fine but that's how I feel about it.

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#49  Edited By Pedro
Member since 2002 • 51296 Posts

@AcidTango said:

Here is a video about downgrades.

And yes I know that this video is about PC games being downgraded because of consoles but the same can be said about games being made on both newer and older consoles as well. So don't tell me that downgrades don't exist when they do.

And again I'm not upset that Sony is doing cross gen with their current games. I get it, they can make more money by releasing those games on the PS4 and it's good for PS4 owners who don't have a PS5 yet. And maybe the new God Of War and Gran Turismo 7 won't be downgraded and hopefully both games will still end up being amazing.

But in the future when game developers are able to utilize the PS5 more and the PS4 getting older and older, eventually Sony will have to move on from the PS4. Now if you still disagree with me then that's fine but that's how I feel about it.

The video talks about the PC versions which demonstrated that the game was not downgraded because of consoles. The instance in which consoles were referenced as the cause was for a vertical slice of a game and it was speculated that it was downgraded because of consoles. Speculation.

Here is the thing, when developers show off an early build of a game demonstrating their vertical slice, it is not a a true representation of the final game. They should not be using these for promoting any game because these demos are not reflections of final builds. They are fake games. It doesn't contain all the elements in the final game and is the reason why the game changes a lot from those initial vertical slices. When a game is first shown and it is near completion, you are most likely getting true representation of what the game is going to be. However, when you see a version of a game that is years away, you are most likely looking at a faked demo of the game. It is closer to conceptual piece. CD Projekt did that with The Witcher 2, 3 and with Cyberpunk. They bastards lie so much about what their games are going to be just like the other bigger publishers.

The other instance in which consoles are cited for downgrades is when the PC version is just a port of the console version. Which is not a downgrade but a game primary platform being console and is simply ported to another platform. These scenarios of a game being actually downgraded mid cycle is mostly a fallacy. Folks being concerned about Horizon, God of War and GT7 being also on the PS4 is missing the fact that these games were being made for the PS4 to begin with. They were not PS5 games that were then gutted to entirely to work on the PS4. This does include the other fact that games have been near identical in experiences for over a decade now. Graphics are the only thing that changed and systems with weaker GPUs simply look worse and ones with stronger looks better. So, I reiterate again, the downgrade claims because of consoles are fallacies.

EDIT: found the video of the Witcher 2 demo in which the liars claimed there would be no loading and you will explore a vast open world. All lies. So, it surprises me that people think that they wouldn't lie with regards to The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk.

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