Battlefield something or another - woman empowerment

I don't give two fucks if there is a woman in the game I just want good gameplay that isn't shallow like the way BF1 was.

@Dark_sageX: don't give EA idea's

I actually took the time to watch the whole show while keeping myself awake and I paid attention... and they actually never really state with clarity that this Battlefield is supposedly historically accurate or going for such a thing. There are basically two lines in there that would make you think as much, but they very quickly devolve into "we're doing our own thing." I could have sworn that they did make it clear that this was going to show off what WW2 was like but they didn't really say that. Just at the start of the talk about War Stories, and maybe the War Stories segments are somewhat more realistic. I don't know.

I still think they could have been much more clear about this, but I don't think I have any complaints about the direction for this particular BF entry now that I know this.

Teenage male Battlefield V players combined with female character models that can be customized, what could possibly go wrong.

I'm sure the inevitable Youtube gameplay videos will be very ... cinematic.

Good thing BFV added "Please help me" begging and 50 new prone positions.

I admit it bugs me. I'm no activist, but my grandfather who is still alive was in World War 2, my uncle in Vietnam, etc. Having women on the front lines is really disrespectful to what they actually went through, in my opinion.

Think about it if the shoe were on the other foot. People are constantly complaining about "cultural appropriation" and all this stuff, for example when an American lead played Major Kusanagi, major uproar. And that's over nothing.

During World War 2, people like my grandfather literally saw friends die. Hundreds of thousands of American service men died fighting in WW2, and if there were female American combat deaths, they were so few that it's not even worth mentioning.

Beyond that, I also don't appreciate the message that women are physically as strong as men, that's just nonsense. Men are very powerful, and violent, and I think it's dangerous to teach young woman (especially) that they can stand up to that level of power and violence in a street fight. I've been very clear with young women in my family that if they ever run across a man who is violent they need to step away and seek safety, because I know they have seen all these shows of "strong women", etc, and may believe some of that nonsense. A grown, angry, violent man is nothing to be trifled with.

But what about the women that where on the front line of WW2? Women have fought men and won. Fighting isn't always about strength. A grown ANGRY, Violent man is easy to fight compared to a grown CALM, Violent man. Women can especially if they have had training can be the better fighter than man, Russia proved this with their snipers in WW2. I don't think it has to do with physical strength when there's guns involved. My grandfather served in WW2 (Panzerschreck division) and he would tell you the opposite. Women where on the battlefield so where kids (around 8 years old) especially in Germany.

Lost what exactly? My opinion has not changed.

You have said nothing to change my mind, nor have you presented anything to prove me "wrong".

Look, of course there were women killed, and there were some women soldiers, 60 million people died in WW2. But if you really going to sit here and try to rewrite history into some saga of women soldiers profound sacrifices on the front lines and equality, and whatever .. as far as I'm concerned you're just making stuff up. Sure, there were Russian female soldiers, and female soldiers in other countries, but the number of women actively serving on the front lines in WW2 was MINISCULE compared to the number of men fighting. The exception doesn't disprove the rule ... WW2 was a war fought by men, as every war before it, and every war since. Even today, with women actively serving in the United States armed services, female deaths are rare. I recommend "American War and Military Operations Casualties : Lists and Statistics" for a breakdown by race, gender, etc, for basically every military conflict the U.S. has ever engaged in. Example: Operation Enduring Freedom, 2346 deaths, 50 of them were women, around 1 in 50, and that's a conflict where women widely participated. Vietnam, 8 U.S. women died, in Korea out of 35000 deaths .. 2 were females.

To claim that the overwhelming majority of combat deaths were (and are) anything but men is very disrespectful to men.

Battlefield isn't historical at all. But to say that women aren't apart is more disrespectful. I never said that there isn't a huge gap between man or women, But saying its not important or that it doesn't matter because of the number is. And where did I make stuff up please point it out.

@funfun: what a load of sexist crap.

For all the alt right dumbshits who say that Battlefield cannot have female British fighters...time to drop a recognition bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Wake

Britain had them, not as front line soldiers maybe, but as secret ops and they could fight and kill just like men. And the Battlefield V cover heroine is probably the Norwegian resistance fighter they were talking about.

So recognize.

I doubt there will be Fortnite levels of customization. And I can't really see over-sexualization being done by DICE, either.

The "please help me" cry for medic spam was introduced in Battlefield 2 and was carried into Battlefield 2142. Then they ditched it because it spammed up the chat box. However, if they make it so it's a game audio cue, instead of a "radio"/text one, it could actually work decently.

As for the prone animations... I'm not looking forward to the evolution of the dolphin dive.

I swear, so many gamers on this site made me realize how insecure so many men are

And here we are, a know nothing alt right moron who cannot get his facts right. Women DID fight in World War II. That is a fact. To think otherwise is sheer ignorance.

Oh, look a British-American female agent who had her leg amputated and still served.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Hall

That's what I like the least about the youngest generation ... they think that if they just argue the point long enough, B.S. everybody hard enough, pull out enough exceptions to the rule .. that somehow all the nonsense they're spinning will be the truth. Half the time I think you kids even believe all the crap you write, which is the most frightening part of it.

So now it's sexist and "alt-right" to say that WW2 was fought by men.

I weep for the future.

To think that you idiots are going to be running the world when I'm old **sighs**.

@funfun: it's a game, it doesn't have to be realistic, the developers are free to put an ET on WWII if they want to.

Learn to live with it and avoid the game of you don't like it.

Start behaving like an adult and learn things are not going to be the way you want to and stop whining about women in games.

Grow up.

@funfun: and you didn't say WW2 was fought by men, you were whining that men and women are different, that women are weaker than men (I'd like to see you take on a wrestler woman tho) and all the conservative sexist BS.

Exactly what I'm talking about.

Do you .. seriously, think that because there are a few women who are stronger than men and can beat a man in a fight, do you honestly think that this exception to the general rule that men are stronger than women in any way invalidates the actual reality that men are stronger and more violent than women.

That's exactly what I'm saying ... that you can argue a point like that as if it were true, I mean I have to wonder .. does someone who does that actually believe that B.S., or are you just trolling, or are you delusional, or do you think that if you just keep saying it over and over everyone will believe it, or WTF ?

I swear a lot of you have been B.S.ing people for so long you don't even know what the truth is anymore.

It's not sexist to say that generally men are stronger and more violent than women, it's a statistical FACT. A measurable, scientific, observable fact.

@funfun: games are about the exceptions to the rule. Do you really think that in WW2 people were mowing down entire bunkers on their own while huge plane battles happened overhead? Yes there were stories of great feats like that done, but they make up a tiny fraction of the people who served. The majority of people in WW2 never even fired their guns in combat let alone kill anyone.

So why are you ok with the core concept of the game being unrealistic and historically inacurate, but think that having a female avatar is crossing the line?

But to say there weren't women fighting is a bit disrespectful to the ones that did. And you never did point out where I made up stuff. I just don't think you can handle the truth.

I never said women weren't fighting, I said women weren't fighting on the front lines in any significant numbers.

Sure you made stuff up, over and over. In the post above that I quoted from you, in only like three lines you lied at least three times. You said I was whining to further your argument, you tried to extrapolate that women and men are equal physically by mentioning a wrestler, trying to equivocate between an example of a strong woman and use that to generalize to all women, and then you said that saying that women and men aren't equal physically was sexist and conservative, which is also false.

True facts - I'm not whining, I was simply commenting, just like anyone else on the thread. Women aren't as strong and violent as men, no matter how many examples of women who are stronger and more violent than men that you post, it's simply untrue - everything from average bicep measurements to police murder statistics easily proves that. Women didn't serve in any great numbers on the front lines of World War 2, it's just a fact, any historical record of military recruitment, service, and deaths proves that. And it isn't sexist to point out that women are not as physically strong or as violent as men, no more sexist than pointing out that men can't have babies. It's simply a fact of nature.

So yeah .. you are a liar. It's just that you lie so much that you don't even realize you're doing it, it's just a natural part of whatever you say, you probably couldn't look someone in the eye and say anything without exaggerating, equivocating, rationalizing, outright B.S'ing, omitting facts that don't suit you, and using rhetorical tricks to add a sheen to whatever you're saying. It's B.S. and lawyer talk, and since you haven't been able to B.S. your way through a conversation with me you're shifting to a new approach and trying to use moral indignation to compensate.

The truth comes easy to me, so yeah, I'm perfectly capable of handling it. I'm sitting here smiling because your B.S. is so easy to see through.

@funfun: you're just a conservative guy that are afraid of women.

Pitful

@npiet1: I don't see you complaining about these unrealistic aspects of gaming:

- Taking several shots, not dying and regenerating while in cover.

- One man taking down an entire army

- Youngsters using huge swords fighting monsters and saving the world

And that's just the beginning of unreliastc stuff in gaming.

But a female lead is absurd? No. At least admit you're being sexist and are conservative.

Admit you're afraid of women.

There's nothing wrong with women in video games. It's actually pretty hot seeing women take masculine roles.

The issue is rewriting history to appease Neo-Marxists. A female in a WW2 battlefield with a prosthetic arm... c'mon. If it was intended to be an alternative history of some steampunk spin, nobody would care.

Nobody is making the argument to not have women represented in video games, so stop being intellectually dishonest. The backlash coincides with the amount of smugness and condescending tone coming from these social justice warriors taking the other side's argument out of context.

Good luck winning an ideological war with an attitude that nobody wants to associate with.

@Gaming-Planet: the game was never meant to be realistic in the first place.

It's just a game, stop whining.

That's not even an argument. Gaming-Planet just made the same 'mistake' I did. It's a WW2 fantasy game (Like Battlefield Heroes), inspired by WW2. They're not explicitly selling it as a WW2 game but as their fantasy spin on it. With apparently portions that are realistic? ("• World War 2 as You’ve Never Seen It Before – Take the fight to unexpected but crucial moments of the war, as Battlefield goes back to where it all began.") Maybe some single player stuff.

Gaming_Planet would probably agree with me that this is going to confuse some youngsters. It would be better if EA's messaging was more clear on this. But it will probably make it clear in the game.

Oh gawd, OP must be so insecure ?

Might as well have clowns for soldiers because that was a clownish argument.

But EA's message was heard loud and clear: Everyone who saw the trailer saw how over the top it was and how it was nothing like a real battle.

And people responded to that: half the votes on the trailer are dislikes.

Meaning people would've rather had a more realistic interpretation, something a bit more grounded. Not Battlefield Heroes 2: Jumping the Shark.

The trailer was clear I suppose XD

Yeah and I get that. I think I would have preferred that too if I hadn't played too many WW2 shooters throughout the years. Purrsonally I'm more interested in an alternative take. But I do 100% get the dislikes. It's simply true that even though they are games, people deeply respect an effort to make things taking place in the past feel more real/authentic without becoming too boring/cruel/...

And with the current push for political correctness to the point that even the truth is in danger of being altered in accordance to a political agenda, combined with their lack of clarity it's hard to separate the two. My first thought was as well that they were caving in to rewriting history for political reasons. But I actually think they just thought that this was what people wanted, and maybe they were wrong about that.

I've seen the argument a lot that games aren't realistic to begin with and that's true: Battlefield 1 allowed you to carry a MG08/15 and hipfire it which was pure fantasy, it allowed you to sprint straight up mountains, it allowed you to be brought back from the dead, and almost non of the soldiers running around had realistic weaponry...

But on the other side of the spectrum we still had soldiers that looked very much like their real life counter parts and maps that were deeply routed in reality: Verdun Heights for example. Those are the things that can sell you on immersion, while the non realistic stuff can be swept under the rug because of suspension of disbelief (just like a movie like Saving Private Ryan for example is still fiction, but it can still suck you into its WWII setting and story).

But then there is a point, which Battlefield V reached I think, where it just starts to become a farce. The battle they showed going on in the trailer: totally over the top. We had soldiers without uniforms, soldiers with prosthetic arms, Tanks driving through buildings like they were porches ... It all starts to become a little crazy. And suddenly your suspension of disbelief is gone.

______

There was this comment your wrote, and I've seen a lot of people write: that these types of soldiers are only in co-op. And that the trailer was showing co-op gameplay.

But it was in fact PVP: The player behind the camera POV was a real person and the people he was shooting down weren't bots either. They were real life people too. I noticed Berduu's name on there, as one of the people he shot.

At any other time I would have no problem with it. Nowadays though... one has to wonder if its just not forced "diversity" because non-gamers demand it

I wonder this too. But as long as the dont feel like thats the reason they are there i dont care * cough overwatch cough*

@Vatusus:

And then some chick complains when EA makes the villian(s) in battlefield, a band of women.

@Gaming-Planet: no counterpoint, then?

Well...

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Disabled women in a WW2 game? I guess. If we aren’t going for realism though why not just have a futuristic game?

LOL if EA expects me to pay the Deluxe Edition for hating on the woman's front cover and is all butthurt over this? Bitch please! Standard Edition and that's as far as you'll be getting my money EA! Battlefield V Deluxe Edition now with No Girls Allowed DLC

It's not that the trailer was clear, it was just rush! It was lackluster but not the worst however.

The way I see it, I think Dice is going for "Marvel's Winter Soldier" style with the whole cybernetic arm and I'm not all familiar with WW2 Prosthesis arms, but I don't mind it anyways and this is somewhat a alternative WW2 like. Either way, this is a day one purchase on PC!!!

So. . . uh, hey guys.

Do any of you actually know anything about history that wasn't spoon fed to you by a movie or, um, a video game? I'm just asking because a lot of you keep talking about "history" and "realism" or "accuracy" yet. . don't know a god damn thing because it's pretty obvious you know nothing of history so please stop.

Did women serve and fight during World War II? Yes. Let's just get that out of the way. I am sure someone said it before but it deserves repeating so, yeah, women served. In official capacity (and as irregulars). We had tankers, we had fighter pilots, we had spies and partisans. Of course we had nurses, too, and people in administration but we had women on front lines carrying weapons.

The Russian Night Witches are one example. They flew bombers and fighter bombers and attacked Germans. Mostly women volunteers, late teens and early twenties. They won awards and medals. Were recognized.

Or, more famously, Russian female snipers. We've heard many stories, I'm sure, but they are for the most part accurate. Lyudmila Pavlichenko is said to have gotten 309 confirmed kills. Even if half of that was true, it'd still be very impressive.

Mariya Vasilyevna Oktyabrskaya was one of the first female tankers and even posthumously won the Hero of the Soviet Union award. She joined the military to avenge her husband. And there were others, too.

Or Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, a guerrilla fighter who was tasked by the Russian military to go behind enemy lines and burn down villages or set landmines to sabotage German war efforts.

By now you must be saying "But Dozer, these are all Russians. . and some other incredibly weak excuses". Yeah, true.

So how about Hannie Schaft, the dutch resistance fighter? Smuggled out refugees, spied, and sabotaged German War efforts. She eventually was caught and executed.

Or Virginia Hall, an American who acted as a spy despite having a PROSTHETIC LEG (I highlight this because some here were crying about the prosthetic arm; surprise, they had prosthetics) and a limp and still did her damned duty. She trained French Resistance, cut Nazi supply lines, and generally caused mass chaos in preparation for the Allied landing at Normandy.

And Susan Travers, British Woman. Started as a nurse and ended up a part of the French Foreign Legion. Saw combat.

I can keep going. There are examples and plenty of them to draw upon that you all conveniently ignore while screaming about "history" and accuracy. It proves you guys who do this know absolutely nothing. But let's go further because we all know "women" aren't the only complaint. Let's dig deeper.

Some here and outside the community just love bringing up "realism" all of a sudden. In Battlefield of all games, which I should remind you has never been a "Mil Sim" franchise. Where people load vehicles with C-4 and ram each other or jump from one jet to another. Etc. Etc. Some of you are worried about cosmetics being "too silly".

Well, you silly children, lemme point you to Mr Jack Churchill, a British Army Officer. His nicknames were "Mad Jack" and "Fighting Jack Churchill". Oh, and the guy had a motto! "Any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed." Because, surprise, he carried a Scottish Broadsword into battle. Oh no. Oh nonono. It gets crazier. He also carried bagpipes and a long bow. Which he used. Suddenly that dude in the trailer doesn't look so weird after all. There were other Brits who had things like umbrellas and fancy canes.

I also want you to look up Alan Magee. He was a bomber's ball gunner whose parachute was destroyed and was forced to jump without one. And no, kids, this wasn't a low flight. We are talking 22,000 feet in the air. And he survived. He was captured but survived and the Germans certified this feat.

Children, you will find many stories like these if you dug just a little into history. Just a little! Get under the surface and look around. And this may be, in essence, what Battlefield V is all about. "Untold Stories", or really stories that are interesting and exciting. The battles we all know and "love" are cool and everything but the war was huge and was fought on many fronts and there are many stories.

So, in summation:

- Women did fight or participate in the war
- Prosthetic limbs were used well before World War II and there is a real life example of a woman spy, during world war II, with a prosthetic leg
- "Cosmetic customization" is not as bonkers as you think, courtesy as the living embodiment of Lieutenant-Colonel Jack Churchill.
- Don't hide behind "realism", "accuracy", or "history" to try and disguise your obnoxious and unreasonable hate

- Starts post by insulting people, expecting to continue reading

- Acts obnoxious

- Implies people are being obnoxious

@uninspiredcup:

Because they are.

Sorry.

"Lol, this game is unrealistic women didn't serve. . history, accuracy rawr" is pretty dumb and deserving of modest contempt.

Edit:

I was pretty specific on who I was talking to, too. So, like. . if you feel personally attacked. . ? Dunno, man.

Me? As far as BF goes literally no Battlefield SP has been good, and it's turned into a grind wall of of weapons lacking the streamlined nature of the originals. It's not really something worth caring about in the first place. If people like the series now, good for them. but for me it's been dog-shit for a long while now. About the only one I enjoyed was Bad Company 2, and that had the problems mentioned above.

But in regard to post, it's not about them or the substance, but how you've conducted around it. Go back and read that and imagine you're some third party, and tell me how you come across. Certainly not enlightened or above them. If you're going to attempt a point for point argument, having it sound like an angry rant merely sabotages it. Instead of seeing whatever point your trying to make, people will by default have incentive to go against it.

And then you argue for 20 pages. And then someone wins. Then you forget about it 20 minutes later.

Yeah, you were very specific about talking to everybody in the thread.

Please, do tell me the untold story of Punished Aloy, Comandante Genji, Sergeant Voodoo and Walmart Braveheart riding a tank decorated with teddy bears and getting bombarded with V-1's as they fought in the frontlines for the British army, taking down planes with hand grenades.

That's subjective, dude. Not my problem. Though I concede that 3 and 4 were pretty bad and probably trying to copy the Michael Bay-ish school of thought that Call of Duty followed. Bad Company 1 had a solid and enjoyable single player campaign because it didn't take itself serious or beat us over the head with any heavy handed philosophical junk. Bad Company 2 started leaning in that CoD Direction of "grim dark" but was still fun and humorous. Battlefield 1 had an actually pretty solid "campaign", but was entirely too short.

And I know what I wrote. Arrogant? Talking down to people? I mean, that was partly the point. Like I said, Mr Cup, some of these people deserve modest contempt. And I provided that while also still being educational. It's more fun that way. And I assure you, tone doesn't really matter here in System Wars or anywhere other than, perhaps, something more official. People will inevitably take offense that I suggested Women actually did participate in combat or that those cosmetic options aren't really that far fetched. That they have the audacity to invoke "history" or "realism" to protect their filth they claim are "opinions" is itself insulting to the rest of us, especially those who actually have looked into history.

Besides.

As General George S Patton supposedly said, "When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight it's way out of a piss-soaked paper bag."

@R10nu:

Cool, you forgot the second part.

I'm just asking because a lot of you keep talking about "history" and "realism" or "accuracy". . .

Were you invoking history or realism? Because it sounds like you are.

The characters are fictional but they have real world examples. Tankers, to set themselves apart, did decorate their tanks. Some were efforts to reinforce their armor, such as mounting logs or sadbags along the sides, while others sported captured helmets and other enemy equipment. There are examples of people with prosthetic arms, such as the examples I put out there (Virginia Hall, the American spy, had a prosthetic leg). Jack Churchill carried a basket-hilted Scottish Broadsword, a set of bagpipes, and a longbow into combat. American paratroopers sported mohawks and face paint. Soldiers on all sides commonly took trophies, lugers and katanas (which Japanese officers did use) being common examples.

None of what you see is without precedent.

Furthermore, as I also pointed out, this is not a Mil Sim game. Plus, it is a video game. Some of you may have forgotten that. Notable for how people do very unrealistic things, such as my favorite example of jumping out of a jet to shoot another with an RPG before getting back into their vehicle that was slowly falling to the ground.

So I find your inability to suspend your disbelief. . surprising.

Edit:

I forgot about Douglas Bader, a British Pilot who lost both his legs before the war. He was retired but when the war broke out, they took him in and he would eventually go on to score 22 aerial victories before being shot down and captured. . . where he befriend a German pilot and fellow Ace, Adolf Galland. He used prosthetic legs.

Hm.

Oh the Uber enlightened have weighed in. How refreshing.

While BF is a game, it does pride itself on somewhat realistic settings and environments. If they would say we are patterning our game off a little bit of history that many don’t know about then that would actually elevate the inclusion of a disabled woman in a forward fighting position. That’s not what they are doing however.

Also someone just posted an article decrying violence against women in a video game. This virtue signaling generation makes me want to puke.

Um.

I don't know what battlefield game you played but I remember VERY CLEARLY mounting C4 on jeeps and ramming them into tanks. Or C4 on drones and taking out helicopters (or crates; once upon a time, in Bad Company 1 and 2, you could just blow up crates in Rush). Or all the 360 no scoping collateral dude bros who jump off rooftops. More common in Call of Duty but they do make appearances in battlefield. Oh! Or that time someone jumped out of their jet to RPG a pursuing jet and then jumped back into his own. That was Rad and also not at all realistic. Or taking shock paddles and instantly reviving people. I can go on, bro. There are youtube channels dedicated to all the ridiculous stuff people do in Battlefield.

And, if you read my previous posts, you would understand "disabled woman in forward fighting position" isn't that unrealistic. I already pointed to tons of examples of women who saw combat in various capacities, from tank drivers to bomber crews. . and snipers. . but also two prominent examples of people with Prosthetic limbs. Douglas Bader, a British Pilot who scored 22 aerial victories, had prosthetic legs. Virginia hall, a WOMAN spy had a prosthetic leg and trained French Resistance while sabotaging German supply lines. Women in resistance groups were also very common.

So, um, spare me your feigned indignity. "Virtue signaling" my butt. Someone posted an article, oh no. It must mean it represents everyone's view! Gasp, Shock. Oh man.

This is the smugness attitude that no one wants to associate with now.

@Gaming-Planet:

Ah yes, because associating with angry kids who cry about women in video games is so much better. Or all the morons who send death threats to people because the game isn't to their liking. Yeah, those people are totally better to associate with.

Tell you what, stop trying to defend your hateful "opinions" with flimsy excuses like "accuracy" and "realism". . . and I won't be so contemptuous.

By the way, everyone? The prosthetic arm that the character has? The one people say is "robotic" or steampunk?

It's a dorrance split hook 1912. So, yeah. . I guess you could call something that has been around well before World War II "space age" or whatever.