Are RPGs even a good medium for narratives and storytelling?

Its no secret that video game stories by and large are terrible. But oftentimes I still see people, praise RPGs as some highlight of narratives with people playing them pretty much just for the story.

But I never really saw why they do that. Usually the only difference between the narrative in an RPG and that of say... a shooter, an action game or a puzzle game is that there is a lot more writing in an RPG. But Quantity doesnt mean quality. I found the writing in puzzle games like Portal or The Talos Principle to have far more compelling writing than what one would find in a typical Final Fantasy or BioWare game.

They are cliche as hell, all while not understanding what made those cliches good in the first place.

One big problem with wRPGs in particular, is that they add the typical stock races, without much thought to them. You know, the dwarf, the elf, all while failing to understand what made the dwarf and the elf tick in Tolkien's works. Those 2 races were carried by the themes. What makes this more damning is that since Wheel of Time, Fantasy literature has moved away from Tolkien. Yet, computer RPGs are still stuck under Tolkien's shadow? Why? D&D perhaps. But seriously, why is it so hard to move on? They call the genre fantasy, but at this point, I prefer to call it Banality.

The inclusion of player choice handicaps the rigidness a good narrative often needs.

Many RPGs offer player choice. Oftentimes, when developers give players the option to make a choice during the storyline. It far more often than not, comes across as forced, as in, it exists for the sake of existing. In a good system choices would come out naturally as a consequence in the world, but instead of that, we often get a world and narrative that conforms around a choice you make. That is the opposite of how it should work.

Too many chefs in the kitchen.

No writer is the same, my writing style will be different from the writing style of David Gaider or Chris Avellone. The way a person sees the world, as well, as linguistical capabilities and overall preferred writing tone and preferences can all affect the writing. This can not only lead to some serious problems with consistancy, or rather lack thereof.

The lack of a good protagonist

A good protagonist is often necessary for a good narrative. However, RPGs often have terrible protags for one reason or another. Predefined protagonists often lack a lot of personality to allow for player choice or to allow the player to insert themselves as them. Other RPGs lack a predefined protagonist overall (which isn't a bad thing, since RPGs are supposed to be about roleplaying). Other games, simply put makes the protag a complete Mary Sue. Far too many blank slates for good narrative.

Character stats and gameplay/story dissonance

I don't need to say much here. But lol at so many RPGs where you are supposedly an arch-mage with enormous intelligence and wisdom stats. Yet you fall for the most obvious of tricks. Why is a character with 255 intelligence just as gullible as a character with 1?

Spread too thin

How many RPGs in the past decade have we seen brag about having X books worth of word count? More writing isn't necessarily better, that just means more dialogue they need to get right. But it is not surprising there is so much work for the writers. Considering they have to write all the various responses for the player, and the various responses for those responses, potentially doing much more than merely doubling the work needed for any conversation. The work is simply put, spread so thin. Everything becomes so bland, so tasteless.

All in all, RPGs, do have a lot of writing, no denying that. But more doesnt mean better. I would rather have tight, to the point writing we get in many other genres, rather than the drawn out dialogue we get in RPGs.

Maybe it is just me, but I prefer roleplaying games to offer roleplaying over a narrative. Especially so since most cant do the narrative to begin with.

Do you disagree, agree, anything to add? What genre do you think is the most competent at writing? I think Adventure Games are... western ones at least.

no, but they are the best we are going to get in video games

How so?

Better than adventure games?

Hell, I would argue I even greatly prefer the writing in games like Portal over the anime clicheness we find in Persona.

Personally, between all the recent AAA wRPGs and the shockful of badly written and translated jRPGs we have. I would argue that RPGs is probably one of the weaker genres for storytelling, on average that is. There are a few well written RPGs in there. But by and large, you have to waddle through a sea full of crap.

I have yet to be published or win my Pulitzer so I actually enjoy some games stories. This idea that they are all terrible is LOL to me. WTF are people expecting from this medium? Broadway Tony award playwright level stuff? Lighten up and let yourself be entertained.

Storytelling is storytelling. Why lower your standards because it is a video game? If we as gamers ever want storytelling in this medium to mature, we as gamers have to hold video games accountable. Not act as cheerleaders.

All of them arent terrible, but even the best of the best are comparable to mediocre novels.

for direct story telling, I'd say they are. They offer the most direct way to convey the most amount of information without confusing people; you generally walk around, talk to people, and say and hear exactly what you want to hear.

With other games, let's use Portal for example, you are taken for a ride a good chunk of the time and much is implied and you are talked at. While there is story, you are not really given a choice and there is, more or less, only half a story there because you can only witness it from your perspective.

With RPGs, you get to choose responses, see it from other point of views, view the big picture, and so forth.

I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, by the way, I much prefer the more subtler approach of Portal or the new Tomb Raider games to the heavy-handed approach of a jRPG or something.

RTS pretty much does that as well. ;)

I think Dark Souls method of telling it's story is very effective, if your looking for a story its there and it's up to you to uncover it.

Interesting. Here I thought you were going to start a neutral opinion poll, asking folks if the story in an RPG is an important element or not, given our discussion in the FF6 thread. Oh well, this will do.

Obviously my answer is yes. Is it the ONLY reason I play RPGs? No of course not, but it's often a major factor.

And as I said before, LOLing at people who play RPGs for the narrative is akin to laughing at people who play diablo for the loot, play Nier for the combat, or drive cadillacs for the smooth ride.

Pretty sure I would have never completed Witcher 3 if not for the story and characters.

There are some RPGs I enjoy that don't really have much narrative (dark souls) but let me be very clear. I enjoy those games DESPITE the lack of narrative, not BECAUSE of it.

The reason for no poll is because I find discussion far more interesting than polling.

Roleplaying is pretty much the only reason I touch RPGs. Storylines are good when they are actually competently written, but they are so likely to miss at this point I don't really care. I would rather not have any half assed writing getting in the way of my game.

While most people are not as intolerant of bad writing as I am. Writing has never been what drew people into this genre, in fact, the early RPGs had bare bones plots. Even the Tabletop D&D campaigns were pretty much popcorn at best. Often just there to let situations emerge out of player interactions.

It is not a bad system for sure. Environmental storytelling is great. always.

Don't get me wrong though, having a story doesnt automatically make a game worse. However, a bad story will detract. And there lies the problem.

Why put self imposed limitations on what you can enjoy or have fun with? That is what standards are. Nobody dictates them to you. You are responsible for your life experience.

Why are you even comparing them to novels? Do you compare a tale told in song to a novel?

That is not imposing limitations on oneself. That is called staying consistant with one's standards.

I suppose part of the appeal of KOTOR 2 is while you are the protagonist, you aren't really. Your decisions serve a demonstrative purpose to Kreia's predefined story.

In general the "you are the chosen one" and elves and orcs don't bother me, not super analytical about it and if it's an action-rpg then you generally won't be making much in the way of decisions to begin with.

LOL sure. A standard is another way of saying something is beneath you. I choose to not place those limitations on myself in life.

Because when a game is not good enough, it is not good enough.

For someone who often claims to have played a lot of RPG's this post sure sounds like you've literally played two in your entire life.

I think open world is the best medium for larger scale environmental stories (or stories about a large group of people). Because you get more intimate with the world and people's place in the world. It has the (as of yet not used all that much) potential to do crazy things to that world or groups of people in it. (Doesn't need to be country-sized. Yakuza-scale works fine, too.)

And for smaller more personal stories I think what they do in Persona works well. You get to know characters a lot. You go through phases with them. I think it's not so much the RPG aspect as much as it is the element of time. The characters go through things and you spend time with them. Not just fighting stuff but also hanging out with them. Getting the chance to grow to like them or dislike them. Not just for their stats but for their attitude and preferences. You could implement that in other genres as well. I don't think that needs to be in an RPG at all.

To contradict myself I think that BotW is full of wonderful little stories, and that is an open world game. Maybe you just need to be good at it.

I think what they actually mean is world building, not story. The lore. People often don't know what to call it so they just say "story" I guess.

Skyrim's little dragonborn story was pretty dull imo. But I managed to get hooked to the rest of the game... The lore.

Maybe it's not "story" that they mean but something else such as the lore or how real the world felt and somehow they concluded that it was the story. Which is wrong but some people just don't have the vocab or terminology for these things. Just putting it out there.

For stating that the majority of RPGs are absolute shit at storytelling, barring only a few gems here and there? That even there, only become comparable to mediocre novels?

The point of this thread is that the whole, RPG is a storytelling genre is a ridicilous assumption, since quite frankly, they are not very good at it in the first place.

Shadow of the Colossus did a great job with its world building and lore. But that is an action adventure.

I found the characters of Persona to be too banal, too cliche for my tastes. At best, they are a well executed implementation of anime tropes. Maybe that is just Persona 4. But after that game, I dont really want to give the rest of the games a shot. Shame, because I liked the mainline SMT games.

To be frank, the world building in tamriel, while fairly expansive is not all that fascinating. The best they did was arguably with Morrowind, which came down to execution of lore more than anything.

Compare the lore of Tamriel to say... the World of Malaz/Wu/whatever you want to call it (Malazan: Book of the Fallen). And Tamriel will just come across as mundane and unimaginative.

@Maroxad: Since Im a simple minded buffoon, I believe that this drawn out argument can be summarised to games of all genres can have a good story. Its up to the writers. The only exception to this I can think of is the MMO, and MMO is not really a genre, but a way to play.

Regardless, what I am saying is some people might be mistaking lore for narrative/storytelling.

Tamriel having worse or better lore clearly has nothing to do with what I said.

I'll take note though. Malazan: Book of the Fallen you say? Got it. I'll check it out.

@Maroxad:

It's all just subjective but I strongly disagree.

I mean a good chunk of them just have bad writing, because lets be real if those people could write, they wouldn't strictly be working on games. But that said the virtues have to be a bit different, I think Avellone for instance writes very robotically, when he wants to go for anything more nuance or complex in thought (both Planescape n KoToR 2 suffer from this) it's a very bland understanding of that topic and dull expression of it. Where he kicks absolute ass as a writer, is that he knows how to write gameplay as part of his story. So he can actually convey things with his systems. And that was always a strength for Blackisle all the way to them being spread around as the Troikas and Obsidians of the world.

That to me is when the story has its most value in this medium. Not when they have something to say, because often, this medium barely has anything to fucking say. But more so when the story actually, properly compliments the gameplay, can sustain a series of momentum, and add exciting context to the gameplay.

I think while modern day Bioware n CDPR don't actually make RPGs anymore, their writing strengths are that their characters have a level of pathos that isn't always there, and to Bioware's credit they'll push an envelope or two in terms of giving a character a personality trait that might piss some people off. They consider it a virtue to have a character that gets a polarizing response from people, and that's actually kind of admirable. The actually plotting in their games can be super fucking stupid, but again, that's just this medium's low ass bar for writing, not necessary strictly a medium thing. And Bethesda's work speaks for itself, and loljrpg story telling. Listen I like a jrpg here or there, as a game, but the stories? Yeah, I'll take Bioware's bad days over that, if anything.

But I'm beginning to question if that's the other biggest reason gaming story telling peaks at over done cliches. Very few devs actually leverage gameplay, that to me is like a film director having no appreciation for cinematography. It's destined to **** up.

But story telling is the last thing the rpg has been given too much credit. The part where it's some bastion of depth n a thinking man's genre is also pretty bullshit. With modern equivalents being action games, middling ones at best, that "do more", which they fucking don't. And older ones, suffering from mistaking complexity with depth. Far too many redundant elements in a game to provide that.

That said, like anything else, that's how the word "most" works. Most things aren't good, most films aren't good, most arthouse films aren't good. Moonlight is good. Same way most rpgs aren't good, but Fallout New Vegas inspite of its combat, pretty good. The Witcher 3's world, moment to moment script writing, and characters? Quite good. Mass Effect 4? Yeah, okay, it's probably rubbish.

Yes, absolutely.

For one thing you're operating on the assertion that, because "most" RPG's are "shit at storytelling," the entire genre should be dismissed for storytelling, which is laughable. If even a handful of gems exist that completely proves that the genre is capable of better. Also I don't know if maybe you only read classic acclaimed stories but the majority of books are hot garbage. There are a shitload of novels and novellas out there. So the idea that the best stories of games are at the level of a mediocre novel is also laughable. Planescape Torment alone is easily a better story being told than 90% of novels, it could easily qualify as well above average, good, maybe even great for some people.

Additionally I'd like to point out that we are merely scratching the surface of possibilities for how stories are told in gaming. I comfortably believe 25-30 years down there will be video games, especially RPG's, that will have bigger and better stories than any book or movie could possibly provide. The potential for memorable experiences, player driven and developer crafted, will be beyond anything we can think of.

That's all assuming that the industry doesn't crash into a burning pile of wreckage, of course.

Regardless, even if I were to agree with the assertion that a genre doesn't work for stories now, they are only going to be getting better and better the further we innovate and decide what is actually possible for this and other genres. Writing off a genre or medium that is relatively new and constantly changing and evolving is very short-sighted.

@Maroxad:

great thread dude , now let's address these problems

1-They are cliche as hell, all while not understanding what made those cliches good in the first place

well we talked this about many times and I told you RPG writers need to stay the **** away from realm of fantasy at least for a while, and they’re not under the shadow Tolkien, believe me I wish they were, they’re under the shadow of each other, always copying not creating

2-The inclusion of player choice handicaps the rigidness a good narrative often needs

I think we need to solve this problem first >>> transition from table-top RPG to desktop RPG

In computer RPGs, every course of action that is allowable must be specifically coded for, potentially at great expense. At the single scene level, in a fairly open world game like Fallout: New Vegas, you can go into a shop and attack the shopkeeper, or buy from him, or conduct a canned discussion with him. You can't offer to go into business with him, or threaten him, or ask to marry his daughter, as these options haven't been coded in advance by a programmer, provided with art and sound, etc. But in a traditional RPG using the same setting, you could, as the only restriction on the players' activity is the mind of the present gamemaster and activity of the players; the game adapts to become what they all want to do instead of vice versa. Infinite scenarios are thus created using the same "engine."

What is true in one scene is even more true in the long term. The game's narrative, even in an open-world game, is constrained to the metaphor of the game and what it intends the player to accomplish. In the best CRPGs, a player can wander where they want to, and maybe pick one of several paths, and adapt based on "good vs evil" moral choices or the like. But they have strict limitations based on the need to control the narrative, including constructs like "the door that cannot be opened until a quest condition is met," or "the NPC that cannot be talked to until a certain phase in the game." A CRPG doesn't support many alternate paths and doesn't learn based on the player's choices. In a tabletop RPG, the prostitutes would stop getting into your car after a couple of them get killed, whereas in Grand Theft Auto they just keep lining up.

Of course, the tradeoff is that instead of extensive visuals and recorded dialogue and twitch-pleasing combat, all the activity occurs in the mind's eyes of the participants - but it can be done anywhere, anytime, with practically no gear or expenditure.

3-Too many chefs in the kitchen

maybe more sous-chef for side missions

4-Character stats and gameplay/story dissonance

exactly , when the games doesn't make sense , I remember once I was a looting a 1000 years old tomb and I found fresh apple in the grave ....srsly WTF

5-The lack of a good protagonist

a good protagonist is a silent protagonist

6-Spread too thin

quality over quantity , developers should stop making big ass worlds and fill it with stupid things to increase the replay value , make your game short or hire better sous-chefs

And I only truly know that through experience.

Yea, as much as I do enjoy an actual good 'story driven' RPG like Planescape, Bloodlines or Betrayal at Krondor, say, they are also very few and far between and it's not something I really look for in an RPG. Like you said, I'd focus more on the adventure genre when it comes to this.

Just give me a game with good combat, mechanics and a thin justification for going deeper into the dungeon or wherever, and I'm good, pretty much.

All in all, RPGs, do have a lot of writing, no denying that. But more doesnt mean better. I would rather have tight, to the point writing we get in many other genres, rather than the drawn out dialogue we get in RPGs.

Yea, just look at the non Beth Fallout games. They have good storytelling, especially FO1. It's not so much the main plot itself, but the superbly crafted post apoc world. The writing is spot-on and you don't always have to go for this intricate main plot with all these OMFG twists to have a great story. Fallout proves that.

@Maroxad:

Do you guys have secret "we hate game stories" meetings run by the illuminati or something?i

I found stories in Mafia 1, Max payne 1, System shock, Deus ex, Metro better than most typical mediaval RPG stories.

both Metro and Witcher based on Books but Metro Story blow Witcher story out of water by miles.

As much as I enjoyed the story in Planescape Torment. RPG's suck at narratives the majority of the time.

No, this is why Skyrim is my favorite RPG. They give you some stories and narratives that are good enough but pretty generic. The real fun comes from modding and shaping the experience exactly how you want it.

RPGs are a good medium for narratives and storytelling. Look at Baldur's Gate.

KOTOR was better than Meatbag Lucas so yes...

lol

:P

As I've said before, visual novels are the best medium for interactive storytelling. And the reason for that is because there's little to no gameplay to get in the way of the writing. So it allows writers to explore choices and consequences to a much greater degree, and with much better writing.

Runner-up would be adventure games. They still have some gameplay, primarily puzzles and exploration, so they fit somewhere between visual novels and RPGs on the gameplay-story spectrum.

I say most, because exceptions exist in every genre. And in every single case it is the writers being competent, not the actual RPG stuff. We see competent writing in shooters, action adventures, puzzles. They have good writing in spite of being roleplaying games or shooters or whatever, not good writing because they are in their genre.

And video game stories, especially RPGs have progressed nowhere in the past decade. Just why is it that PST is still regarded as the pinnacle?

Undertale did some good interweaving between story and gameplay.

PST having better than 90% of all novels? Bwahahahaha, Sorry man. But even that at its best is pulp philosphy. Granted, it is enjoyable. But it is still pulp philosophy. It kinda helps that novels arent filled with literature rejects. You should look at the people who write video games. And their past works. Often times, it is not all too great.

Oh noes, someone found out our secret. I should alert my Illuminati masters at the corners of the antartica this horrible revelation.

Agreed.

Not to mention, Fallout's biggest advantage was how well executed its lore was in the actual game. That is something I see a lot of devs miss. It is not just writing a compelling world, but also how to execute that world into the game.

The more I read, the more adventure games I play, the more difficult it is to take RPG narratives seriously.

Actually the more 'gamey' aspects, are where the BG games shined. The fun interpretation of D&D (even though it should have been turn based like the Gold Box games or Temple of Elemental Evil), crawling around in some cool dungeons, the well-crafted encounters, the RPG mechanics/the itemization..

Not so much the plot, writing and characters, which were decent at times but cringe-worthy a little too often also, but that's Bioware for ya'

1. well yeah, that is ultimately the problem, they are just being derivative. By shadow of Tolkien, I just meant they are copying tolkien too much... often while not understanding what made tolkien tick.

2. I dont know about you, but I would love someone like IBM to get involved with the creation of an RPG. Namely, create an artificial intelligence game master.

3. That could work, but tonally and overall narratively inconsistances can stick out like a sore thumb. In general, I think RPGs should emphasize on having fewer side quests, instead emphasising maybe 10 well made side quests. With interesting gameplay... and yes, narrative. As of the past decade, most of it is just wank. Both in the gameplay department and the writing. Yes, Witcher 3 had well written side quests. But this is an exception to the norm.

4. Yeah, not to mention games with randomly placed loot, tend to lead to all sorts of absurd situations. Towns being placed in geographically terrible locations, just because the player needs a place to restock and rest.

5. They can definately be. Problem is the mary sueness that is all over the place.

6. Hell yeah! My biggest gripe with RPG narratives is that they often focus far too much on quantity over quality, which is why I find them so forgettable. Hell some of my favorite writing moments in this industry came from games with less words than what one would find in a single chapter of a typical novel.

I agree, writing in games are at their best when they are interwoven into the experience.

Well, RPGs always did a pretty good job with providing an illusion of depth. That is something they always got right. If they provide the illusion, let players be under it. Just like how people are under the illusion they are actually good at action games when playing Dynasty Warriors. To me, RPGs are only really good at one thing, and that is roleplaying. But many games, especially modern games seemingly eschew this roleplaying aspect in favor of a narrative. that quite frankly, isn't that good to begin with. This is what annoys me. This delusion that RPGs are supposed to be a story driven genre.

One of my friends follows an online discussion for world builders. And the way an RPG world was built was often quite different from how a novels world building was built. With video games emphasising the actual world before the characters, whereas it is usually the opposite for novels.

Problem with RPG narratives and gaming narratives as a whole, is when even the best of them are roughly on par with a mediocre novel or film. Granted, I do find PST to be much more memorable than say... a summer action flick. But that is a low bar.

True, the extensive modding itself is basically a form of role-playing. It goes beyond predetermined confines to tailor the experience as you see it through farmed content, namely the community itself. That's generally far more interesting than option 1/2/3, or the Witcher 3's 100 shitty endings.

Well, you know my opinion on this matter.

We need rethink what video game narrative is really about, from media studies perspective.

@funsohng Yeah, right now there is academic research and development being done for writing better stories for movies, academic work on literature. But as far as I am aware, very little serious work, if any is done on video game narratives.

@bussinrounds Indeed. The beholder encounters (which would have benefited greatly from being turn based, yup. I recently fought a beholder in Tabletop, fun fight) were far more interesting than Aerie's whining or Minsc's low intelligence act (which got old rather fast).

@Maroxad: There were some Italian scholars tackling video game from semiotics perspective. I wonder if it's still going on.

It's a circlejerk of elitist pseudo-intellectual pricks who think they're on superior ground because they can bully a new kid together.

I don't even like PST all that much, it's too wordy for it's medium and asks questions without providing it's own answers. But for every Wheel of Time as you mentioned in the OP, there are 300 Twilights, or 200 Slave Girl of Gors, and 100 Fifth Sorceresses wallowing in the muck below. Purely written storytelling has been around far longer and has had much more time to build a vast collection of horrendous garbage. Lots of books are great, maybe tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands better than any game out, but that's only because there are potentially several millions of novels that have been written. And that's just the published stuff. Check out a fanfiction website sometime if you want to see what actual bad writing looks like, because right now it seems like you lack any form of perspective.

I believe that's called the lounge.

@Maroxad: Just because you write that long ass article it doesn't make you any less of a troll. The majority of people who buy and play RPG's such as Final Fantasy and Persona buy and play them because they like the story as well as the characters. By the time anyone beat Persona 3/4/5 they feel like they actually made a group of new friends and end up wanting more. That's why the majority of people who started on Persona 4 Golden went back to Persona 3 and are now playing Persona 5. Try to post that crap in the Persona 5 hype thread. I'm sure you'll receive plenty of healthy debate immediately. I think your issue is that you just don't like JRPG's in general like Final Fantasy and Persona. That's why you trash them and their stories every chance you get. The fans of those respective, well received series don't agree with you, though.

@valgaav_219:

I'd definitely say that with most jrpg's in general. Western rpg's are awesome too but I feel that they mostly focus too much on immersion and personalized experiences. So much so that parts of the would-be narrative have to take a backseat.

As I am here playing Persona 5, I am consistently surprised by its narrative. It feels almost like I'm indulged in a very good book, but it's a video game instead. The game is also not shy of tackling subjects that feel almost taboo to portray in video games yet it tackles these themes gracefully. I don't think the story is winning just because it is tackling ideas that other games don't, but because it is incredibly well-written and a genuine feel for storytelling.

I was about to call you out on your literary tastes but yeah... The Malazan Book of the Fallen is probably the best story in the world. You win.