AMD Demonstrates 14nm FinFET Polaris GPU Architecture

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ronvalencia

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#1  Edited By ronvalencia
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From http://www.amd.com/en-us/press-releases/Pages/amd-demonstrates-2016jan04.aspx

The world’s first public showcase of 14nm FinFET PC GPU technology promises more than double the performance per watt over previous generations1; now sampling to OEMs

14nm FinFET points to Samsung's process technology.

AMD should release ZEN CPU ASAP...

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#2  Edited By Ten_Pints
Member since 2014 • 4072 Posts

something to look forward to for the end of this year.

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#3 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@ten_pints said:

something to look forward to for the end of this year.

It's mid-2016. i.e. "AMD expects shipments of Polaris architecture-based GPUs to begin in mid-2016."

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#4 freedomfreak
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My favorite kind of architecture.

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#5 NyaDC
Member since 2014 • 8006 Posts

This is exactly what I was waiting for, I have two 290X's, moving to a single highest end Polaris GPU when they come out should be a worthy replacement, the Fury cards are great but just not enough of a step up for me to rationalize the kind of money these things cost.

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#6 GiveMeSomething
Member since 2007 • 1323 Posts

@nyadc said:

This is exactly what I was waiting for, I have two 290X's, moving to a single highest end Polaris GPU when they come out should be a worthy replacement, the Fury cards are great but just not enough of a step up for me to rationalize the kind of money these things cost.

Singing Justin Bieber songs helps me sometimes to justify the buys :)

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#7 Halo2-Best-FPS
Member since 2004 • 784 Posts

Who cares, Console is gfx king no matter what nerd tech PC pushes out.

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ronvalencia

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#8  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Halo2-Best-FPS said:

Who cares, Console is gfx king no matter what nerd tech PC pushes out.

AMD Polaris's release date is similar to Nintendo's NX game console's release date.

This indicates that the Polaris video card is only using roughly 50W, making it twice as power efficient as the Nvidia Maxwell based GTX 950 graphics card.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-polaris/#ixzz3wVDgWw9y

From https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EVGA/GTX_950_SSC/30.html

In terms of performance Geforce GTX 950 ~= R9-270X ~= 50 watt low end Polaris.

100 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 40 CU i.e. two R9-270X.

200 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 80 CU i.e. four R9-270X.

300 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 120 CU i.e. six R9-270X.

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deactivated-57d8401f17c55

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#9 deactivated-57d8401f17c55
Member since 2012 • 7221 Posts

I'm ready to buy a zen apu. Also I think this is what will be in NX.

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#10 FireEmblem_Man
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@Chozofication said:

I'm ready to buy a zen apu. Also I think this is what will be in NX.

The Zen APU's won't be ready until next year in 2017, AMD will first launch the Zen FX CPU's first.

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#11 FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@Halo2-Best-FPS said:

Who cares, Console is gfx king no matter what nerd tech PC pushes out.

AMD Polaris's release date is similar to Nintendo's NX game console's release date.

This indicates that the Polaris video card is only using roughly 50W, making it twice as power efficient as the Nvidia Maxwell based GTX 950 graphics card.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-polaris/#ixzz3wVDgWw9y

From https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EVGA/GTX_950_SSC/30.html

In terms of performance Geforce GTX 950 ~= R9-270X ~= 50 watt low end Polaris.

100 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 40 CU i.e. two R9-270X.

200 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 80 CU i.e. four R9-270X.

300 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 120 CU i.e. six R9-270X.

Good call! Nintendo has always aimed for power efficiency in their home consoles.

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#12 AM-Gamer
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So if this is in the NX how much more powerful then a PS4 would it be?

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#13 FireEmblem_Man
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@AM-Gamer said:

So if this is in the NX how much more powerful then a PS4 would it be?

Much powerful, and more energy efficient

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#14  Edited By gamecubepad
Member since 2003 • 7214 Posts

@AM-Gamer said:

So if this is in the NX how much more powerful then a PS4 would it be?

Depends a lot on the CPU and RAM config. What they demo in the vid is paired with i7-4790k and 16GB DDR3. Under this config the AMD setup achieves a ~30% increase in graphics settings paired with ~30% drop in power consumption over the PS4(GTX 950 runs SWBF 60fps/high settings with high-end i7 in benchmarks I've seen).

DF ran i3-4130 and GTX 950 to achieve parity with PS4 in SWBF.

So what it looks like to me is that when you pair the GPU used in this demo with a budget CPU, it will run at PS4 performance levels with 40-50% less power consumption. Which sounds about right for Nintendo.

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#15 Halo2-Best-FPS
Member since 2004 • 784 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@Halo2-Best-FPS said:

Who cares, Console is gfx king no matter what nerd tech PC pushes out.

AMD Polaris's release date is similar to Nintendo's NX game console's release date.

This indicates that the Polaris video card is only using roughly 50W, making it twice as power efficient as the Nvidia Maxwell based GTX 950 graphics card.

Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-polaris/#ixzz3wVDgWw9y

From https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/EVGA/GTX_950_SSC/30.html

In terms of performance Geforce GTX 950 ~= R9-270X ~= 50 watt low end Polaris.

100 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 40 CU i.e. two R9-270X.

200 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 80 CU i.e. four R9-270X.

300 watts scaled Polaris would be similar to 120 CU i.e. six R9-270X.

And? The best looking game is still going to be on consoles.

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#16 deactivated-57d8401f17c55
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@FireEmblem_Man said:
@Chozofication said:

I'm ready to buy a zen apu. Also I think this is what will be in NX.

The Zen APU's won't be ready until next year in 2017, AMD will first launch the Zen FX CPU's first.

That sucks, i'll just get a really efficient stand alone gpu then. I need to ditch this phenom 2 of mine :P

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#17  Edited By ronvalencia
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@gamecubepad said:
@AM-Gamer said:

So if this is in the NX how much more powerful then a PS4 would it be?

Depends a lot on the CPU and RAM config. What they demo in the vid is paired with i7-4790k and 16GB DDR3. Under this config the AMD setup achieves a ~30% increase in graphics settings paired with ~30% drop in power consumption over the PS4(GTX 950 runs SWBF 60fps/high settings with high-end i7 in benchmarks I've seen).

DF ran i3-4130 and GTX 950 to achieve parity with PS4 in SWBF.

So what it looks like to me is that when you pair the GPU used in this demo with a budget CPU, it will run at PS4 performance levels with 40-50% less power consumption. Which sounds about right for Nintendo.

GTX 950 is faster than GTX 750 Ti.

DF has stated i3-4130 + 750 Ti is similar or beats PS4.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

For NX, Nintendo may select 50 watts Polaris to 100 watts Polaris (PS4's GPU TDP level).

The next problem is the CPU selection i.e.

AMD Puma (28 nm TSMC)

AMD K12 custom ARM core (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry)

AMD Excavator (28 nm Global Foundry)

AMD ZEN (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry).

-----------------

ARM A53/A57 reference design was for 20 nm TSMC.

ARM A72 reference design was for 14 nm Samsung or 16 nm TSMC.

From http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=44734

Su said that the company will have "additional semi-custom revenue ramping in the second half of 2016," and the Nintendo NX is projected for a late 2016 release.

A certain semi-custom SoC is targeting 2016 for revenue.

It looks like AMD's 14 nm PC APU SKUs has less priority than a certain semi-custom SoC.

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#18 deactivated-57d8401f17c55
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@gamecubepad said:
@AM-Gamer said:

So if this is in the NX how much more powerful then a PS4 would it be?

Depends a lot on the CPU and RAM config. What they demo in the vid is paired with i7-4790k and 16GB DDR3. Under this config the AMD setup achieves a ~30% increase in graphics settings paired with ~30% drop in power consumption over the PS4(GTX 950 runs SWBF 60fps/high settings with high-end i7 in benchmarks I've seen).

DF ran i3-4130 and GTX 950 to achieve parity with PS4 in SWBF.

So what it looks like to me is that when you pair the GPU used in this demo with a budget CPU, it will run at PS4 performance levels with 40-50% less power consumption. Which sounds about right for Nintendo.

950 is a better gpu than what's in the Ps4. It's also important to note that these tests were made with beta drivers, and that the NX will have a better cpu than Ps4 as well (i'm assuming, because it'd be incredibly hard to not have a better cpu). This gpu seems to pull 50 watts by itself, and the 950 pulls about 100 watts. Polaris

It's not just about power consumption, it'll be fully DX12 capable (current gpu's aren't) and be able to process more polygons than current architectures. Not to mention that the memory in NX will be a step up from ddr3/gddr5. A sub 100 watt NX could easily double Ps4 performance.

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#19  Edited By FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts

@Chozofication said:
@FireEmblem_Man said:
@Chozofication said:

I'm ready to buy a zen apu. Also I think this is what will be in NX.

The Zen APU's won't be ready until next year in 2017, AMD will first launch the Zen FX CPU's first.

That sucks, i'll just get a really efficient stand alone gpu then. I need to ditch this phenom 2 of mine :P

Me too, but the FX zen cpu's will be more efficient as well

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#20  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@FireEmblem_Man said:
@Chozofication said:

I'm ready to buy a zen apu. Also I think this is what will be in NX.

The Zen APU's won't be ready until next year in 2017, AMD will first launch the Zen FX CPU's first.

From http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=44734

Su said that the company will have "additional semi-custom revenue ramping in the second half of 2016," and the Nintendo NX is projected for a late 2016 release.

A certain semi-custom SoC is targeting 2016 for revenue.

It looks like AMD's 14 nm PC APU SKUs has less priority than a certain semi-custom SoC.

PC main-board platform validation is longer than semi-custom SoC motherboards based on graphics card i.e. both PS4 and XBO's PCBs are highly based on graphics card design with 256bit trace lines. AMD's PC motherboard design hasn't reach XBO or PS4 level.

256bit trace lines for memory connection on a motherboard is similar to Intel's Extreme Edition motherboards.

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#21  Edited By FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@FireEmblem_Man said:
@Chozofication said:

I'm ready to buy a zen apu. Also I think this is what will be in NX.

The Zen APU's won't be ready until next year in 2017, AMD will first launch the Zen FX CPU's first.

From http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=44734

Su said that the company will have "additional semi-custom revenue ramping in the second half of 2016," and the Nintendo NX is projected for a late 2016 release.

A certain semi-custom SoC is targeting 2016 for revenue.

It looks like AMD's 14 nm PC APU SKUs has less priority than a certain semi-custom SoC.

PC main-board platform validation is longer than semi-custom SoC motherboards based on graphics card i.e. both PS4 and XBO's PCBs are highly based on graphics card design with 256bit trace lines. AMD's PC motherboard design hasn't reach XBO or PS4 level.

Sounds very exciting!

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#22 emgesp
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I really hope Nintendo was able to get this tech in the NX. Seems up their ally considering how important low TDP is for them.

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#23 emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7848 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@gamecubepad said:
@AM-Gamer said:

So if this is in the NX how much more powerful then a PS4 would it be?

Depends a lot on the CPU and RAM config. What they demo in the vid is paired with i7-4790k and 16GB DDR3. Under this config the AMD setup achieves a ~30% increase in graphics settings paired with ~30% drop in power consumption over the PS4(GTX 950 runs SWBF 60fps/high settings with high-end i7 in benchmarks I've seen).

DF ran i3-4130 and GTX 950 to achieve parity with PS4 in SWBF.

So what it looks like to me is that when you pair the GPU used in this demo with a budget CPU, it will run at PS4 performance levels with 40-50% less power consumption. Which sounds about right for Nintendo.

GTX 950 is faster than GTX 750 Ti.

DF has stated i3-4130 + 750 Ti is similar or beats PS4.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

For NX, Nintendo may select 50 watts Polaris to 100 watts Polaris (PS4's GPU TDP level).

The next problem is the CPU selection i.e.

AMD Puma (28 nm TSMC)

AMD K12 custom ARM core (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry)

AMD Excavator (28 nm Global Foundry)

AMD ZEN (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry).

-----------------

ARM A53/A57 reference design was for 20 nm TSMC.

ARM A72 reference design was for 14 nm Samsung or 16 nm TSMC.

From http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=44734

Su said that the company will have "additional semi-custom revenue ramping in the second half of 2016," and the Nintendo NX is projected for a late 2016 release.

A certain semi-custom SoC is targeting 2016 for revenue.

It looks like AMD's 14 nm PC APU SKUs has less priority than a certain semi-custom SoC.

So the NX would be roughly 2.5 Tflops?

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#24 FireEmblem_Man
Member since 2004 • 20248 Posts

@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:
@gamecubepad said:
@AM-Gamer said:

So if this is in the NX how much more powerful then a PS4 would it be?

Depends a lot on the CPU and RAM config. What they demo in the vid is paired with i7-4790k and 16GB DDR3. Under this config the AMD setup achieves a ~30% increase in graphics settings paired with ~30% drop in power consumption over the PS4(GTX 950 runs SWBF 60fps/high settings with high-end i7 in benchmarks I've seen).

DF ran i3-4130 and GTX 950 to achieve parity with PS4 in SWBF.

So what it looks like to me is that when you pair the GPU used in this demo with a budget CPU, it will run at PS4 performance levels with 40-50% less power consumption. Which sounds about right for Nintendo.

GTX 950 is faster than GTX 750 Ti.

DF has stated i3-4130 + 750 Ti is similar or beats PS4.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

For NX, Nintendo may select 50 watts Polaris to 100 watts Polaris (PS4's GPU TDP level).

The next problem is the CPU selection i.e.

AMD Puma (28 nm TSMC)

AMD K12 custom ARM core (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry)

AMD Excavator (28 nm Global Foundry)

AMD ZEN (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry).

-----------------

ARM A53/A57 reference design was for 20 nm TSMC.

ARM A72 reference design was for 14 nm Samsung or 16 nm TSMC.

From http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=44734

Su said that the company will have "additional semi-custom revenue ramping in the second half of 2016," and the Nintendo NX is projected for a late 2016 release.

A certain semi-custom SoC is targeting 2016 for revenue.

It looks like AMD's 14 nm PC APU SKUs has less priority than a certain semi-custom SoC.

So the NX would be roughly 2.5 Tflops?

TFlops mean nothing as they don't reflect real world performance.

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#25  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@emgesp said:
@ronvalencia said:

GTX 950 is faster than GTX 750 Ti.

DF has stated i3-4130 + 750 Ti is similar or beats PS4.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-fallout-4-performance-analysis

For NX, Nintendo may select 50 watts Polaris to 100 watts Polaris (PS4's GPU TDP level).

The next problem is the CPU selection i.e.

AMD Puma (28 nm TSMC)

AMD K12 custom ARM core (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry)

AMD Excavator (28 nm Global Foundry)

AMD ZEN (14 nm Samsung or 14 nm Global Foundry).

-----------------

ARM A53/A57 reference design was for 20 nm TSMC.

ARM A72 reference design was for 14 nm Samsung or 16 nm TSMC.

From http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Print.aspx?NewsId=44734

Su said that the company will have "additional semi-custom revenue ramping in the second half of 2016," and the Nintendo NX is projected for a late 2016 release.

A certain semi-custom SoC is targeting 2016 for revenue.

It looks like AMD's 14 nm PC APU SKUs has less priority than a certain semi-custom SoC.

So the NX would be roughly 2.5 Tflops?

Unknown, it depends on Nintendo's TDP limits for NX.

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#26 emgesp
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@ronvalencia:

Let's say 50 - 70 watts max TDP.

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#27  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@emgesp said:

@ronvalencia:

Let's say 50 - 70 watts max TDP.

It depends if the TDP increase was from clock speed or CU unit count.

For example

By CU count, larger compute power gain with larger chip size.

By clock speed, smaller compute power gain with the same chip size.

For Polaris at 70 watts, it's somewhere in the AMD Tonga Pro range with improved geometry processor.

For Polaris at 100 watts, it's somewhere in the AMD Hawaii Pro range with improved geometry processor.

Improved geometry processor is nearly pointless if CPU can't supply it with enough dots/point data with large scale physics+game play calculations.

XBO Crackdown 3 with remote Intel Xeon (Core i7 Quad Core or greater) CPU processing's large scale destruction sequence shows what a proper CPU can deliver for down-clock 7790 GPU with a turbo-cache. Game play changes with higher performance CPU.

From techpowerup's benchmarks

R9-270X (20 CU, ~1Ghz)'s performance is about half of R9-390X(44 CU, ~1Ghz).

For PC's 250 watts GPUs

Polaris would be a monster i.e. 460 percent over GTX 950.

"2X performance per watt" applied for 980 Ti would result in 456 percent over GTX 950. NVIDIA Pascal (GP300???) at 250 watts would be equally powerful.

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#28 deactivated-57d8401f17c55
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@emgesp said:

@ronvalencia:

Let's say 50 - 70 watts max TDP.

We can't make an apples to apples comparison since this is a new architecture. It'll be better than the 980 ti at some things even, full dx12 architecture and such, but I expect 7950 levels of raw grunt. Worst case scenario, 7870. Could be better than both, but that's a bit hopeful.

I do hope Nintendo will put a bit beefier cpu in there relative to Ps4's when it launched, though. They need to if they want to make the most of this new graphics architecture. I feel like they will, since Miyamoto noted that the cpu was really lacking for star fox.

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#29 gamecubepad
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@Chozofication said:

It's not just about power consumption, it'll be fully DX12 capable (current gpu's aren't) and be able to process more polygons than current architectures. Not to mention that the memory in NX will be a step up from ddr3/gddr5. A sub 100 watt NX could easily double Ps4 performance.

I have a feeling we'll see ~75W from Nintendo. GTX 950 consumes ~90W in 1080p gaming. That means the i7 and the rest of the system in use was drawing ~50W. That puts the Polaris at ~40W(which is fantastic). That leaves around 35W for the rest of the system. DF tested with i3-4130 and GTX 950 to match PS4 settings, but 750ti is right there and in past tests even a 7790 could match PS4 performance.

I'm thinking with a modern CPU and console optimization, we'd see 1080p@60fps high/ultra mixed settings in SWBF with total system draw at 75W. So like you said above, worst-case 7870 and best-case 7950 kind of power. I'd guess $350 with whatever gimmick they're throwing in.

This sounds really hopeful in hindsight, this is the company that's selling a ps3/360 level system(WiiU) for $300 against systems 4-5 times as powerful that cost only $350.

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#30 emgesp
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@Chozofication said:
@emgesp said:

@ronvalencia:

Let's say 50 - 70 watts max TDP.

We can't make an apples to apples comparison since this is a new architecture. It'll be better than the 980 ti at some things even, full dx12 architecture and such, but I expect 7950 levels of raw grunt. Worst case scenario, 7870. Could be better than both, but that's a bit hopeful.

I do hope Nintendo will put a bit beefier cpu in there relative to Ps4's when it launched, though. They need to if they want to make the most of this new graphics architecture. I feel like they will, since Miyamoto noted that the cpu was really lacking for star fox.

So is 14nm fab a no go for the NX, or is it still possible?

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#31  Edited By deactivated-57d8401f17c55
Member since 2012 • 7221 Posts

@emgesp: It's definitely possible, everything seems to point to Nintendo using the absolute latest chips so I think it's a given at this point.

Ron's said so as well. To me, the writing is on the wall, I mean Nintendo is looking into cloud processing even, they're not in the same mind as when they put out the already outdated Wii U. They have to be more aggressive now.

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#32  Edited By emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7848 Posts

@Chozofication said:

@emgesp: It's definitely possible, everything seems to point to Nintendo using the absolute latest chips so I think it's a given at this point.

Ron's said so as well. To me, the writing is on the wall, I mean Nintendo is looking into cloud processing even, they're not in the same mind as when they put out the already outdated Wii U. They have to be more aggressive now.

But I assume they would choose 14nm more so to keep the TDP low while still offering around PS4 level grunt. Nintendo is definitely gonna aim for a sub 100 watt box again, but imagine if they didn't hold the NX back and made a 130 - 140 watt box it would be well over 3 Tflops with Polaris.

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#33 MlauTheDaft
Member since 2011 • 5189 Posts

I'm really looking foreward to retiring my 770 4GB.

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#34  Edited By deactivated-57d8401f17c55
Member since 2012 • 7221 Posts
@emgesp said:
@Chozofication said:

@emgesp: It's definitely possible, everything seems to point to Nintendo using the absolute latest chips so I think it's a given at this point.

Ron's said so as well. To me, the writing is on the wall, I mean Nintendo is looking into cloud processing even, they're not in the same mind as when they put out the already outdated Wii U. They have to be more aggressive now.

But I assume they would choose 14nm more so to keep the TDP low while still offering around PS4 level grunt. Nintendo is definitely gonna aim for a sub 100 watt box again, but imagine if they didn't hold the NX back and made a 130 - 140 watt box it would be well over 3 Tflops with Polaris.

I think we're jumping the gun on Polaris's performance, it's matching the gtx 950 with beta drivers. It could be a 960 level card for all we know now. Also, something i'm not sure about, but the r9 nano fury already nearly doubled the performance per watt vs. the 2/390x cards, and we don't know if this particular card is using hbm (r9 nano used hbm's power and space saving for more transistors). If it's supposed to compete with the 950/60, it might not need hbm and thus not make use of its power savings. Some amount of HBM isn't out of the question for NX.

You'd think if they just shrunk the nano fury to 14nm, they could quadruple the Ps4's performance with similar power draw.

There are so many unknowns, and even if NX used a 28nm process which I think is pretty unlikely, it'll still be a sub 100 watt console with a 7870 level card + dx12 and a new architecture vs. what's in the Ps4.

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#35 Wasdie  Moderator
Member since 2003 • 53622 Posts

This is really what AMD needs to combat Nvidia. Nvidia has been running circles around them in terms of power consumption and heat with the GTX 900 seires and is about to make yet another big leap with Pascal. We need AMD to deliver on this as Nvidia needs some solid competition.

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#36 Weird_Jerk
Member since 2010 • 646 Posts

@Wasdie: I'm really curious to see how this holds up when further DX12 games release. So far, AotS is the benchmark that's been used, and it's seen the 290X just peanuts behind the 980 ti. DX11 on the other hand...

Also, I'd like to see more emphasis on the possibility of cross-compatibility, like SLI-fire. For AotS, mixing brands seems to yield better results than either manufacturer's flagship combo. Perhaps we'll be able to start mixing cards to reap the benefits of both venders.

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#37  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Chozofication said:
@emgesp said:
@Chozofication said:

@emgesp: It's definitely possible, everything seems to point to Nintendo using the absolute latest chips so I think it's a given at this point.

Ron's said so as well. To me, the writing is on the wall, I mean Nintendo is looking into cloud processing even, they're not in the same mind as when they put out the already outdated Wii U. They have to be more aggressive now.

But I assume they would choose 14nm more so to keep the TDP low while still offering around PS4 level grunt. Nintendo is definitely gonna aim for a sub 100 watt box again, but imagine if they didn't hold the NX back and made a 130 - 140 watt box it would be well over 3 Tflops with Polaris.

I think we're jumping the gun on Polaris's performance, it's matching the gtx 950 with beta drivers. It could be a 960 level card for all we know now. Also, something i'm not sure about, but the r9 nano fury already nearly doubled the performance per watt vs. the 2/390x cards, and we don't know if this particular card is using hbm (r9 nano used hbm's power and space saving for more transistors). If it's supposed to compete with the 950/60, it might not need hbm and thus not make use of its power savings. Some amount of HBM isn't out of the question for NX.

You'd think if they just shrunk the nano fury to 14nm, they could quadruple the Ps4's performance with similar power draw.

There are so many unknowns, and even if NX used a 28nm process which I think is pretty unlikely, it'll still be a sub 100 watt console with a 7870 level card + dx12 and a new architecture vs. what's in the Ps4.

AMD is using the same marketing approach when NVIDIA released it's desktop 750 Ti and the direction for the larger Maxwellv2.

R9-Fury Nano is not fleet friendly SKU product i.e. it has mass production issues. R9-Fury Nano could be higher grade "speed bin" R9-Fury X with very low electrical resistance characteristics. Part of R&D problem is the mass production side. R9-Fury Nano's performance is about the same level as R9-Fury (non-X).

Lower electrical resistance = lower voltage and amps, hence lower TDP/power consumption.

The 50 watt low end desktop Polaris SKU would be fleet friendly with better mass production characteristics. AMD is effectively stating, they have solve the production issues with 2X performance per watt and it's available in desktop fleet numbers. This ability impacts the larger SKUs and it's production numbers.

Desktop Polaris' 50 watt R9-270X/7870 GE (20 CU at 1Ghz) performance level GPU is more than 2X performance per watts over PS4's and 7970M (20 CU at around 850 Mhz)'s 100 watts.

7970M is slightly slower than the desktop R9-270X i.e. 850 Mhz vs 1Ghz respectively.

PS4's GPU is slightly slower than the laptop's 7970M.

AMD used GTX 950 as a reference for the best desktop GPU at R9-270X (20 CU at 1Ghz) performance level GPU with around 100 watts power consumption.

Most higher grade very low electrical resistance characteristics GPUs usually heads to laptops while desktop variant has higher electrical resistance characteristics.

My laptop's 8870M GPU at 850Mhz OC (R9-M370X has 800Mhz) has about 35 watts and it's the same part as desktop 7700/R7-250X with more than 2X the TDP i.e. 8870M is almost 2X performance per watt with about 90 percent of 7700/R7-250X performance, but it's not a desktop SKU and AMD charges higher for it.

Anyway, 8870M 2X would be 20 CU GPU with ~70 watts which is slightly lower than 7970M's 100 watts 20 CU at 850Mhz. 8870M 4X would be 40 CU GPU with ~140 watts which is close to R9-Fury Nano which has 44 CU with 175 watts. R9-Fury Nano has similar electrical characteristics to my 8870M.

AMD can't offer sustained 35 watts 7700/R7-250X for mass fleet desktop PC OEMs.

AMD is able to mass produce slightly slower 7970M level GPU for PS4 with around 100 watts.

The hint for NX's Polaris GCN is due to very high polygon performance rumour/leak.

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#38 emgesp
Member since 2004 • 7848 Posts

@Chozofication said:
@emgesp said:
@Chozofication said:

@emgesp: It's definitely possible, everything seems to point to Nintendo using the absolute latest chips so I think it's a given at this point.

Ron's said so as well. To me, the writing is on the wall, I mean Nintendo is looking into cloud processing even, they're not in the same mind as when they put out the already outdated Wii U. They have to be more aggressive now.

But I assume they would choose 14nm more so to keep the TDP low while still offering around PS4 level grunt. Nintendo is definitely gonna aim for a sub 100 watt box again, but imagine if they didn't hold the NX back and made a 130 - 140 watt box it would be well over 3 Tflops with Polaris.

I think we're jumping the gun on Polaris's performance, it's matching the gtx 950 with beta drivers. It could be a 960 level card for all we know now. Also, something i'm not sure about, but the r9 nano fury already nearly doubled the performance per watt vs. the 2/390x cards, and we don't know if this particular card is using hbm (r9 nano used hbm's power and space saving for more transistors). If it's supposed to compete with the 950/60, it might not need hbm and thus not make use of its power savings. Some amount of HBM isn't out of the question for NX.

You'd think if they just shrunk the nano fury to 14nm, they could quadruple the Ps4's performance with similar power draw.

There are so many unknowns, and even if NX used a 28nm process which I think is pretty unlikely, it'll still be a sub 100 watt console with a 7870 level card + dx12 and a new architecture vs. what's in the Ps4.

If the NX is only around as powerful as the PS4 then what's the incentive of PS4/XB1 owners to take interest? Nintendo has around 10 million hardcore Nintendo fans left interested in their consoles, so how can Nintendo bring in gamers outside the dedicated fanbase?

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#39 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@Weird_Jerk said:

@Wasdie: I'm really curious to see how this holds up when further DX12 games release. So far, AotS is the benchmark that's been used, and it's seen the 290X just peanuts behind the 980 ti. DX11 on the other hand...

Also, I'd like to see more emphasis on the possibility of cross-compatibility, like SLI-fire. For AotS, mixing brands seems to yield better results than either manufacturer's flagship combo. Perhaps we'll be able to start mixing cards to reap the benefits of both venders.

A mix vendor Cross-Fire/SLI covers each GPU's weaknesses, hence better result than a single vendor cross-fire/SLI setup.

For example,

Shader power advantage for 8 bit integer and 32bit floating point, AMD

Shader power advantage for 16bit floating point, NVIDIA

Command processor advantage, AMD

Geometry processor advantage, NVIDIA

For AoS DX12, the best Cross-Fire/SLI setup was Fury X as primary with 980 Ti as secondary.

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#40 Whistle_Blower
Member since 2015 • 291 Posts

Nvidia shuould stop being so ambiguous with Pascal...I need an exact date!!!

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#41  Edited By achilles614
Member since 2005 • 5310 Posts

$5 bucks says they'll just sell us a tiny die chip as flagship...so much for better performance per watt if they just give you a tiny chip.

Will be cool for SFF stuff.

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#42  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

More AMD Polaris

Loading Video...

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#43  Edited By 04dcarraher
Member since 2004 • 23824 Posts

@Weird_Jerk:

Problem is that Nvidia does not have a mature DX12 driver, which means AotS bench is pointless.

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#44  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

@04dcarraher said:

@Weird_Jerk:

Problem is that Nvidia does not have a mature DX12 driver, which means AotS bench is pointless.

So much for NVIDIA fanboy's argument for superior NVIDIA drivers...

AMD started from lower baseline i.e. broken multi-threading with PC DX11.

If the CPU is fast enough, Maxwellv2 doesn't need multithreading Async compute to maximise it's performance i.e. multithreading Sync compute would do the job. Anyway, Maxwellv2 will be replaced by Pascal without Maxwell's DX12 drivers being mature enough.

AoTS only shows similar Shader FLOPS performance between the two GPUs.

Larger GCNs has front-end bottlenecks e.g. it's geometry processor. R9-Fury X is not properly scaling from R9-390X relative to it's compute power.

Fury-X has Tonga's geometry processor with twice the shader compute power i.e. 64 CU vs 32 CU. One would assume AMD would scale everything by 2X from Tonga to Fury X, but they didn't.

Polaris PPT slide shows issues with the current GCN e.g. Geometry Processor issue.

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#45  Edited By 04dcarraher
Member since 2004 • 23824 Posts

@ronvalencia said:
@04dcarraher said:

@Weird_Jerk:

Problem is that Nvidia does not have a mature DX12 driver, which means AotS bench is pointless.

Maxwellv2 doesn't need multithreading Async compute to maximise it's performance i.e. multithreading Sync compute would do the job.

AoTS only shows similar Shader FLOPS performance between the two GPUs.

Larger GCN has a front-end bottleneck i.e. it's geometry processor.

The fact that Dx11 performance is better than Dx12 means that the driver isnt mature, and to the fact that all async compute features used in the ashes bench were disabled on Nvidia . DX11 only supports basic multi-threading methods while modern API's ie mantle/DX12 with their features ie async actually can make better use of the gpu's resources.

Once Nvidia gets a mature driver out for DX12 we will see the gap widen again. AMD finally got the their head out from under the rock when it comes to DX with DX12 with their previous work with Mantle , since their DX11 driver base still limited and has to be updated/patched per game basis not to resort to single threaded API usage.

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#46  Edited By ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

DX11

@04dcarraher said:
@ronvalencia said:
@04dcarraher said:

@Weird_Jerk:

Problem is that Nvidia does not have a mature DX12 driver, which means AotS bench is pointless.

Maxwellv2 doesn't need multithreading Async compute to maximise it's performance i.e. multithreading Sync compute would do the job.

AoTS only shows similar Shader FLOPS performance between the two GPUs.

Larger GCN has a front-end bottleneck i.e. it's geometry processor.

The fact that Dx11 performance is better than Dx12 means that the driver isnt mature, and to the fact that all async compute features used in the ashes bench were disabled on Nvidia . DX11 only supports basic multi-threading methods while modern API's ie mantle/DX12 with their features ie async actually can make better use of the gpu's resources.

Once Nvidia gets a mature driver out for DX12 we will see the gap widen again. AMD finally got the their head out from under the rock when it comes to DX with DX12 with their previous work with Mantle , since their DX11 driver base still limited and has to be updated/patched per game basis not to resort to single threaded API usage.

The fact that the difference is minor.

DX11 supports multiple deferred context threads being serialised into a single immediate context thread multithreading model i.e. this is a CPU side issue, hence if the CPU is fast enough this is a non-issue. NVIDIA DX11 driver has optimisations for this MT model.

From the AnandTech article: -

On that note, for those of you who have been asking about support for D3D11 Driver Command Lists – an optional D3D11 feature that helps with multithreaded rendering and is NVIDIA’s secret sauce for Civilization V – AMD has still not implemented support for it as of this driver.

From MS website: -

Command lists can be created on multiple threads — A command list is a recorded sequence of graphics commands. With Direct3D 11, you can create command lists on multiple CPU threads, which enables parallel traversal of the scene database or physics processing on multiple threads. This frees the main rendering thread to dispatch command buffers to the hardware.

Command Lists are purely a CPU core side thing, the difference is between letting the DX11 runtime cache the commands or letting the driver cache them and optimise them. This is what the AMD Radeon driver fails to support.

Significance of this omission is that the Radeon graphics driver would better be able to optimise this process for Radeon GPUs.

"Main rendering thread" = immediate context thread.

DX12 version removes multiple deferred context threads being serialised (copy process) into a single immediate context thread problem. With DX12, you have effectively multiple immediate context threads hitting(dispatch to) the GPU. May need sync function to avoid read and write conflicts/"land mine".

Async compute threads are another command list dispatch thread method which doesn't have sync "land mine".

NVIDIA Maxwellv2 has a single command processor with 31 queues. The multiple CPUs can dispatch to this command processor and fill it's 31 queues, but multiple CPUs has to be careful from stepping on each other's write operations.

AMD Tonga/Hawaii/Fury has 8 async command processors with 8 queues each and 1 sync command processor.

.

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#47  Edited By Yams1980
Member since 2006 • 2861 Posts

umm AMD just isn't giving up are they. I hope this means nvidia and intel will have to lower their prices more.

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#48 ronvalencia
Member since 2008 • 29612 Posts

http://wccftech.com/amd-shows-enthusiast-polaris-ces/

AMD Shows “Enthusiast” Polaris GPU To Journalists At CES 2016