All Kickstarter and crowd funded projects are cons

For the simple reason. If they had a good product they would already be in business like any other business before crowd funding was invented.

Who in their right minds is stupid enough to pay for something that hasn't even been finished, manufactured or even delivered?

Never gave even one stinking penny so I'm good. :P

Na.

The guys who made Divinity: Original Sin, from the start wanted to make a game like Ultima. But were forced by publishers into making action RPGs, and then console action RPGs. - Which to be fair are still great games.

Kickstarter basically propelled them into the vision they wanted and we ended up with two of the greatest of this generation, possibly ever.

-

But alot are questionable for sure. both in quality, do-ability and if they need the money in the first place. I myself blundered with the shit show that was TAKEDOWN. But thankfully redeemed that fucknuggery with La Mulana 2.

It's only a con if you don't do a proper research on the Kickstarter you want to support the game. Do research on them, look at what they're offering, decide if it's worth it for you or not.

Sometimes you can get some cool stuff from backing. Savinig Jason for Friday The 13th The Game was available for backing. The game no longer gets support, but people still cry about not being able to get it. Players begged for it to go on sale, but developers never gave in and said it was only for backers. A lucky few got it when Sony and Microsoft were selling it, but that was it. I also backed Star Citizen/Squadron 42 and I get to play the Alpha and I'm still getting updated E-mails.

To sum it all up. They're good when handled correctly. There is nothing inherently wrong with a kickstarter, by itself... it's just that it can be grossly mismanaged or straight out used as a scam. Shadowrun Returns, Pillars, Divinity, FTL, Banner Saga, Shovel Knight, Hollow Knight, etc. The list goes on and on. There's a lot of good games that have seen the light of day thanks to kickstarters support. Games that publishers had no interest in doing, or that indies couldn't fund without nothing.

Games (or even localization, as seen for some Visual Novels) that enough gamers out there wanted and it met their expectations. Of course, there's always the Mighty N9's out there as well. (I didn't kickstar that game cause I knew the Mega Man creator is a snake in the grass) Or those that just scam the shit out of the system.... but overall, I'd say they've brought out more good than bad.

This is about as dumb as Protos threads, but he's at least doing them out of funsies, TC on the other hand might be genuinely dumb

OP clearly doesn't know how it works

Now that's just silly.

We need to be above false generalizations and claiming that crowd sourcing is a "scam" show how ignorant some people know about it.

@jackamomo: A scam would mean the creators of the campaign were deliberately trying to defraud. Many crowd sourced projects ended up creating great games that were more than satisfactory to those who backed them. Hell, there may be games you play today that were the result of successful crowdsourcing campaigns you weren't even aware of.

Now, whether it's a wise idea for you as a potential backer to put your money down on a game that doesn't exist yet? That's a completely different question. It's a gamble, for sure. Even if the developer is well known there's still a chance the game could come out mediocre or even bad (Might Number 9). That's a risk even with traditionally published titles, but at least with those the most you might be out is some pre-order money.

-Byshop

@uninspiredcup: The guys who made Divinity: Original Sin, from the start wanted to make a game like Ultima.

Divinity: Original Sin is an action rpg. The turn based system - the reason it's good came from Ultima 4. The fact the story got lost somewhere between wanting to make an Ultima game and wanting to please their publisher, the point of being a Kickstarter, that they can forge their own artistic direction was lost when they went and sold to a publisher.

@davillain-: It's only a con if you don't do a proper research

I don't want to research my products to see if I will get ripped off thank you.

All the games you listed could have been on Steam Greelight and got funding from Valve and no-one would ever be waiting years to play Elite: Dangerous which is already playable, and available on Steam.

Shadowrun Returns was a bit of a let down. It was loads of running around trying to find the right dialogue box and was poorly optimised.

A company made a crowdfunded project for a Switch battery and memory card holder. It reached it's target. But when it came out after three years, it had been copied and there were far superior models available on the market.

Shows the importance of patent law.

Nope. It's a CRPG.

Divinity - ARPG aping Diablo

Divinity II - ARPG aimed at Xbox crowd

ARPG's have a focus on real time combat with direct control. The Developers themselves said

http://www.lar.net/2012/05/17/the-grand-idea-behind-project-e/

Raze_Larian 30.1.2014 kello 8.23

You start off the game with a murder mystery and can bake bread.

Actually, Ultima 7 was one of the main inspirations for original Sin (see this

blog post[www.lar.net], from before the game's name was announced, and just referred to as project E). The blog post FUME[www.lar.net] is about game design, with Ultima 7 as an example.

Byshop A scam would mean the creators of the campaign were deliberately trying to defraud.

Not defraud, just could just be not competent enough to make the product they have promised.

If a bank has refused them a loan, there is a good chance it is because their business plan is not sound.

But, to be honest. If you don't know for certain you can deliver a product you should not be asking for tender on something you are not proven to be able to deliver and without professional support

That is basically a con.

Many crowd sourced projects ended up creating great games that were more than satisfactory to those who backed them. Hell, there may be games you play today that were the result of successful crowdsourcing campaigns you weren't even aware of.

Can you name one because I can't think of any.

there may be games you play today that were the result of successful crowdsourcing campaigns you weren't even aware of

I would be aware of any crowdfunded games I might own because I would have had to go 1) lose my mind, 2) go onto a crowdfunding website 3) enter my credit card details 4) wait months or years 5) download it or receive it in the post.

Seeing as I don't remember doing any of the above points I can say with confidence I don't own any crowdfunded games.

The only ever game I bought in beta was Minecraft for about £2.75 and I was playing it in minutes.

Not a scam at all but I probably won't be investing in another game on Kick after the Delver's Drop disaster and I have funded over a dozen projects.

Iggy is almost done with his biggest castle ever. The spirit of castlvania lives on with the release of Bloodstaind

I do think you've got a point with project management actually. It would make sense for crowdfunding operators to provide some kind of management support, and for the sake of their customers they should be ensuring larger projects are actually feasible before they start raising funds. I don't know, maybe some of them already do that, but for those that don't, you'd imagine some level of liability on the operator's part would help prevent the scams that do make it through.

sure you haven't played Divinity Original Sin 2

Be honest, is this about Mr Roberts?

I view crowdfunded projects as a risk, an investment...not a promise of a guaranteed product. So should everyone else. In other words, don't get your hopes up.

But I also invest in the traditional sense (stock market), which is more or less the same thing when you come down to it. I put my faith into a company that, in the future, their products will be quality and their worth will go up.

Crowdfunding really is not that different from traditional methods, it's just bypassing the middle man (pubisher, contractor, etc) and going straight to the consumer. There's always a risk, which is why you shouldn't get your hopes up, and should be careful about it.

Sometimes people have a good idea but, unfortunately, don't qualify for a loan or traditional sort of financing.

Or they don't want to indenture themselves to a publisher.

Maybe they don't have a history of game development, just modding, and are deemed too risky by the banks?

Or...idunno, there's a lot of reasons.

Idunno, literally any company that has an R&D department?

Customers that know a good concept when they see one, and have faith in the people behind it.

I mean, at the end of the day, if someone is making a crowdfunded campaign to reboot the No One Lives Forever franchise, have talent (i.e. a recognizable name and so on), were able to buy the IP rights, and are asking for 40-dollar investments....well, that's worth it to me. That's not stupidity on my part, it's a calculated risk and optimism.

I agree that kickstarters are a waste of money and that any real investment should give actual profit to investors, not product.

That said, this assertion that a good product would already get funded, well sometimes yes sometimes no. Kickstarter is good for a niche product to get funded by its fans.

But I'll never give to kickstarter.

Hollow Knight and A Hat in Time say hi.

You mean, having to tailor your idea to fit into some pre-existing successful mold so the money people would think there's enough of a market to make a large profit?

@mrbojangles25: I view crowdfunded projects as a risk

Yeah, it is basically gambling.

On whether or not some no-hoper will get his or her sh*t together and actually make a thing and deliver it.

I'll just wait and see if they release something and then think about giving them my money.

It's not an investment though because you don't profit from it's success.

If a traditional route of launching a product has not been successful, the tenacious entrepreneur will try alternative methods of funding.

But he is kidding himself. If he cannot launch a product without raising the capital himself it is because he does not have his or her sh*t together.

There are numerous business enterprise loans available and young business schemes if you are committed enough to research them and can present a sound business plan.

The cost of a project has to be understood before embarking upon it. With a timeline.

If you don't have these things you are not going to deliver in a timely fashion that is necessary to make the product nothing more than a hobby.

If a bank won't invest in you it's because they have researched you, heard your presentation and read your business plan. If you do not represent a return on their investment on reasonable terms they will not offer you the loan as your business is not long term viable.

So if you were a proper business person, you would just take some loans out. Produce the product. Ship it, market it and make back enough to pay the loan and start again on a new project or bigger shipment and you are in business.

Not limited runs of 5000 which leave people unable to source the product if they so decided to buy it at a later date and the company has been dissolved or just simply stopped communicating.

Debatable on the investment. If I invest 40 dollars on it, but I get 40 hours of game time from it, I view that as a worthy investment. It's not a traditional investment with dollar profits, but time instead.

Either way dude, that's a very cynical outlook on your part. Without crowdfunding, we wouldn't have:

• Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2
• Broken Age
• Wasteland 2
• FTL
• Superhot
• Shovelknight
• Elite: Dangerous
• The Banner Saga
• Hyper Light Drifter
• Grim Dawn
• Divinity: Original Sin
• Shadowrun Returns
• Kentucky Route Zero
• Xenonauts
• Strike Suit Zero

And I'll be honest with you, man, I enjoyed the hell out of everything on that list a helluva lot more than I did Far Cry 5, Star Wars Battlefront 1/2, and a slew of other so-called "AAA" games. Bonus: they also cost a lot less to buy in addition a lot less to make.

@mrbojangles25: If I invest 40 dollars on it, but I get 40 hours of game time

You could say that of literally any product.

That list isn't all that great.

Wasn't Elite Dangerous special somehow?

Hmm, the founders and kickstarters behind Oculus says hello.

But then again, this thread feels like an obvious fishing thread.

No, you can't.

But it was a simplified example anyway that somehow went over your head, so whatever.

I got the entire first gen (or whatever it is called) of Ctrl+Alt+Del from Kickstarter and it turned out pretty good.

If I could cut out banks/business loans completely from the equation in getting a business up and running or a product shipped, I would. Nothing wrong with that.

If I could buy new products with a guarantee that no money was going to repay interest on bank loans, I'd do that too. Nothing wrong with that either.

Why all the love for lending institutions? I don't get it. As long as backers understand the risk, where's the issue?

I don't think you understand how Kickstarter works.

Kickstarter isn't a store for pre-ordering indie products. If you view it as simply a way to purchase the product, then you have the wrong idea and you really shouldn't back anything (with some exceptions - like deluxe versions of established board games).

Kickstarter is all about supporting creators with their projects. Creators pitch their ideas for a new game/book/movie/whatever, and ask the general public to fund the development and distribution of that project. If a particular project appeals to you, you can pledge money to the creator to help them try to turn the idea into a product.

In short, it's a way of supporting the artist to create things, rather than a way of simply purchasing an end-product. Many of the projects on Kickstarter wouldn't exist without crowd-funding (I mean, which major publisher would have funded a new isometric RPG in the last decade?). Or perhaps they could be made on a self-funded budget, with a fraction of the scale and budget (see: Gloomhaven).

Anyway, I've backed over 100 Kickstarter projects over the years, and some of my all-time favourite games (*especially* board games and pen and paper RPGs) could only have been made via Kickstarter. There's always a risk that you won't get a product at the end, but (a) pledges are all about patronising the artist, not pre-ordering a product, and (b) you can minimise the risk by applying some common sense to your pledges.

@Jacanuk: Hmm, the founders and kickstarters behind Oculus says hello.

But then again, this thread feels like an obvious fishing thread.

Oculus are not profitable.

I don't want to play vr fishing.

@sancho_panzer: Why all the love for lending institutions? I don't get it. As long as backers understand the risk, where's the issue?

The problem with unsecured loans is when sh*t hit's the fan, it's the little guys who end up paying.

If the borrower defaults and can't repay the loan, the underwriter loses the capital. Putting all the risk on the investor.

Kickstarter games have been failure. they either turn out bad, broken or missing in action (like star citizen).

Again, though, I have no problem with that. The backer knows what he's getting himself in for. Also, when the sh!t doesn't hit the fan, I can sleep happy in the knowledge that I've probably screwed a bank out of just a wee bit of potential profit, which instead goes directly to the person who made the thing and to the crowdfunding operator (much better than interest repayments, in my book).

I helped Kickstart Grim Dawn, I've put more than my money's worth into it as have a lot of other people. I'm also thinking about kickstarting Phoenix Point as well.
We have good and bad examples of Kickstarters.

@sancho_panzer: Nothing wrong with banks. They exist because they invest wisely. If you think you are getting value than go ahead and buy whatever you want.

It won't change the fact the Oculus is still not profitable.

So Facebook can take a gamble on that company for $3bill and they still don't make money. What did the Kickstarter's get out of that deal?

Shovel Knight is a Kickstarter game.... So is FTL and Darkest Dungeon. Hyper light Drifter too... Theres been lots of great wins on kickstarter.

Best Kickstarter Projects

@TheEroica: all second rate games.

@jackamomo: Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks. I'm far too risk averse to actually back anything myself, lol.

Obviously there are good projects and bad projects. Oculus was a sh!tshow AFAIC, and yes, I'd have hoped to see some kind of legal recourse actioned. Point taken. Still, they also got this whole modern VR ball rolling. I don't know that would ever have happened if they'd applied instead for a formal loan for such a wacky sounding project.

You can make the same basic argument of any investor in existence. People upfront, oftentimes enormous sums of money, in the unproven. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. This was borne of crowdfunding, one of the greatest Metroidvanias ever created:

.....and by extension, whose immense success has given us this:

@sancho_panzer:I don't know that would ever have happened if they'd applied instead for a formal loan for such a wacky sounding project.

They would have had to prove a market existed.

They couldn't so got turned down.

Not hard to do with a crowdfunding site, though, is it?

*edit* I think I see what you're getting at now. Sure, that kind of thing has happened more than once. Backers got what they kickstarted, though, didn't they? I wasn't following that closely.

It is always a risk, and that's why I'm all for crowdfunding operators taking more responsibility for kickstarters.

Not that I'm a fan of the way any of the Oculus sellout was handled, but according to this PR piece (sorry, article), original backers also netted the final version of the product, so that's something I guess.

Is it open to abuse? Potentially. Is it a con in-and-of itself? Nah.

@jackamomo: ?? Shovel Knight is a Game of the Year to many people.... And all of these games are obviously being developed by independent developers starting with ideas... To know a game as polished and well crafted as Shovel Knight came from kickstarter is pretty exciting. To call a game like that second rate is simply ignorant.

It depends if its a survival game or a game made by the Arc devs... Biggest con artists of gaming ever in my opinion.

That's a fucked up generalization especially considering some of the best games in recent memory have been from successful, above-board, well managed crowd-funding campaigns.

Please change the OP to reflect reality instead of your lies.

You could have said 'Most' instead of 'All' and I wouldn't be able to refute it.

Thankfully not everyone is like you and we actually get good games that aren't controlled by publishers.

It go to show the saying of don’t like it then don’t buy it. Now people tried buying more people instead of kickstart a project it just come to many people try to use as selling platform.

A topic which maybe misrepresent. Let talk about shenmue 3. It very very likely Yu Suzuki shop around his idea before registering for kickstart. In case like this kickstart much more cumbersome because he still have to pay a team of people to make game and kickstart has budget yet the area of game making is something we all know: budget it fluctuate so first kickstart investment may not cover development cost. What happen now is project go in limbo but team still being pay for work(case of people not working as free?).

So for shenmue as I describe it something gamer assume, oh why shenmue a kickstart it a name we know. It not so simple like many people have been thinking. Ha ha ha. Just wait when gamer complain Suzuki can’t include sega game like VR Racing inside vr shenmue arcade because it a license he can’t get!

Minus all the kickstarter/crowdfunded games which have successfully released, or are in alpha/beta and getting regular updates. I think kickstarters are brilliant for developers who don't want to be under a big publishers thumb, where the decisions are no longer up to the developer. To each their own though.

Soapbox threads are a bigger con.

Well Scam Citizen is the biggest Kickstarter citizencon there is :)

X_Karen_x people not working as free

This is why I wouldn't back a Kickstarter. The likelihood of something getting made without a balance sheet and everything costed get's smaller the more the outline of the scope of the project moves around and the less it existed in the first place.

It doesn't surprise me Yu Suzuki hasn't finished Shenmue 2 yet. It's because he just wanted some money. He of all people should know a big game like Shenmue needs a full time studio with full time staff being paid. Also account managers to keep everyone on schedule.

A game like Shenmue 3 needs a 50 person team working for a year at minimum. That is if the game has finished art and level design and ready to start development.

Did he have all that?