After the Mostly Negative Starfield, do you want to see more games with procedurally generated content?

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hardwenzen

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hardwenzen  Online

Poll After the Mostly Negative Starfield, do you want to see more games with procedurally generated content? (44 votes)

Yes 39%
No 18%
HELL NO 43%

I think its one of the worst inventions in gaming. Every single game i ever played with this feature, it felt like a scammer in Hong Kong trying to sell me a fake Rolex when i've already told them five times that i am not interested. When you enter a new zone that is not hand crafted, it looks like shit from the very beginning, and its not by changing its geometry, and add some copy pasted camp here and there that will change my opinion on the already shitty map design.

This feature needs to go... at least until it matures, and offers 100x more assets to play with.

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R4gn4r0k

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#1  Edited By R4gn4r0k
Member since 2004 • 46521 Posts

I'm pretty sure Torchlight 2 had procedurally generated levels, I quite liked it.

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lamprey263

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#2  Edited By lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44643 Posts

I wanna see more negatively reviewed games people still feel compelled to put a few hundred hours into before they come to that conclusion. 🤣

I don't necessarily have anything against procedural generation, works well in roguelikes or anything else that uses a random seed to generate a world, just that infinitely large world bullcrap never seems to work.

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Maroxad

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#3  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23974 Posts

Between roguelikes, and some simulation games, I see nothing wrong with it. Problem is, Bethesda gameplay loop is dull, and the moment to moment gameplay is even duller.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#4 GirlUSoCrazy  Online
Member since 2015 • 1163 Posts

If it can be done right then yes, a lot of rogue style games depend on this.

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TheEroica

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#5 TheEroica  Moderator
Member since 2009 • 22864 Posts

Any technology used for gaming has its place... It's knowing when to use it that matters.

Actually, threads about Starfield feel procedurally generated at this point.... There's a patodox for you Hardy!

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DanishAnwar

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#6  Edited By DanishAnwar
Member since 2023 • 343 Posts

Starfield as well as almost ALL recent Xbox games have massively negative reviews on Steam.

These negative reviews seem fishy as the number of hours on this game prove otherwise. I have second doubts about user reviews now.

Maybe Starfield is not as bad as user reviews show. They could be fake.

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Robertos

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#7 Robertos
Member since 2023 • 1024 Posts

@danishanwar said:

Starfield as well as almost ALL recent Xbox games have massively negative reviews on Steam.

These negative reviews seem fishy as the number of hours on this game prove otherwise. I have second doubts about user reviews now.

Maybe Starfield is not as bad as user reviews show. They could be fake.

nah Starfield sucks.

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judaspete

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#8  Edited By judaspete
Member since 2005 • 7338 Posts

As others have said, it can be fine in certain genres where level design isn't too important such as Roguelikes and Diablo. But for the most part, no. I've never played anything proceduraly generated that was interesting. There will probably come a day when AI can outdo a human, but we aren't there yet.

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mrbojangles25

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#9 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58452 Posts

...mostly negative? Honestly it was mostly positive. The negatives only stand out because a.) expectations were so high, and b.) they were fairly rare that they stood out.

As for the topic:

Yes, I think it is a valuable tool in development. I am not so sure it is good to use for gaming, though. At least not with something that requires large amounts of detail.

It's fine for dungeon crawlers and simple stuff, but anything with large amounts of 3D terrain and open-world design and I think the issues tend to stand out.

With that said, as a development tool, I think it's downright necessary to have systems that use procedurally generated content. How else do you render entire landmasses, planets, etc.? By hand? GTFO.

@TheEroica said:

Any technology used for gaming has its place... It's knowing when to use it that matters.

Actually, threads about Starfield feel procedurally generated at this point.... There's a patodox for you Hardy!

They really do.

"AI, make me a Starfield thread!"

*AI scans for Starfield, sees mostly negative user reviews. Amasses and average of reviews*

"Starfield is a terrible game, and it called my pet gecko a dirty name. In fact the clipping is so bad..."

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pyro1245

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#10 pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 9416 Posts

Some of my favorite games use procedural generation. They just aren't Starfield.

Absolutely nothing wrong with procedural generation, but what do you expect when Bethesda just stops at the landscape and calls it good???

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PC_Rocks

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#11 PC_Rocks
Member since 2018 • 8502 Posts

It's not technology that's at fault here. Besthesda is a sh*t developer. No one should give a damn what Bethesda makes.

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hardwenzen

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#12 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts

People saying it works for rogue likes, and i couldn't disagree more. I prefer replaying the exact same well crafted level than some turd that might or might not be more polished one run out of ten. Hades and Returnal has only strengthen my stance on the matter.

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hardwenzen

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#13 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts

@pyro1245 said:

Some of my favorite games use procedural generation. They just aren't Starfield.

Absolutely nothing wrong with procedural generation, but what do you expect when Bethesda just stops at the landscape and calls it good???

What are those games?

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Pedro

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#14 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 70147 Posts

TC is ignorant on the topic of procedural generation so I understand the need to broadcast the ignorance.🙃

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Archangel3371

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#15 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44415 Posts

Hasn’t procedurally generated content in games been a thing for a very long time now already?

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pyro1245

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#16 pyro1245
Member since 2003 • 9416 Posts

@hardwenzen said:
@pyro1245 said:

Some of my favorite games use procedural generation. They just aren't Starfield.

Absolutely nothing wrong with procedural generation, but what do you expect when Bethesda just stops at the landscape and calls it good???

What are those games?

  • Dead Cells - Great, branching level design based on themes.
  • Deep Rock Galactic - Very cool systems of destructible caves.
  • RimWorld, Dwarf Fortress - Emergent narratives built on tons of systems interacting. Dwarf Fortress litterally generates generations of history and events to build the world.
  • 7 Days To Die - It has taken the devs a while, but the maps this game generates are pretty wild. They feature dense cities with high rises, suburbs, sparsely populated forests and mountains. It may look a bit weird because of the voxel nature of the building and crafting systems, but the concepts are there.

Bethesda games have always relied on procedural generation at least to start with. The trouble with Starfield is just they set their goal at sparsely populated planets. Bethesda world design is at it's best when they use a mix of PG and artistic design. I don't think PG is to blame for the flawed design goals of BGS when developing Starfield.

To take it a step further, I want to see more attempts at prcedural generation using AI to fill the world with unique structures, NPCs, and events. I realize that one might take a while to produce meaningful results, but I'm here for it.

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hardwenzen

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#17 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts

@pyro1245 said:
@hardwenzen said:
@pyro1245 said:

Some of my favorite games use procedural generation. They just aren't Starfield.

Absolutely nothing wrong with procedural generation, but what do you expect when Bethesda just stops at the landscape and calls it good???

What are those games?

  • Dead Cells - Great, branching level design based on themes.
  • Deep Rock Galactic - Very cool systems of destructible caves.
  • RimWorld, Dwarf Fortress - Emergent narratives built on tons of systems interacting. Dwarf Fortress litterally generates generations of history and events to build the world.
  • 7 Days To Die - It has taken the devs a while, but the maps this game generates are pretty wild. They feature dense cities with high rises, suburbs, sparsely populated forests and mountains. It may look a bit weird because of the voxel nature of the building and crafting systems, but the concepts are there.

Bethesda games have always relied on procedural generation at least to start with. The trouble with Starfield is just they set their goal at sparsely populated planets. Bethesda world design is at it's best when they use a mix of PG and artistic design. I don't think PG is to blame for the flawed design goals of BGS when developing Starfield.

To take it a step further, I want to see more attempts at prcedural generation using AI to fill the world with unique structures, NPCs, and events. I realize that one might take a while to produce meaningful results, but I'm here for it.

Of the games you've mentioned, i can only see RimWorld being better with procedural generation than not, and that's because the visuals are very simple. Titles with better graphical fidelity, where you're able to clearly distinguish structures and assets, i don't think its adding anything to the experience.

And while Bethesda did a pathetic job with Starfield, Starfield is far from being the only game where its this apparent. Bloodborne chalice dungeons as an example, was the game that showed me how far behind this technology is when compared to a talented developer like Fromsoft, and their handcrafted levels.

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hardwenzen

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#18 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts
@Archangel3371 said:

Hasn’t procedurally generated content in games been a thing for a very long time now already?

They are. But not many AAA titles use it, and even less fumble their way around like Starfield did.

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#19 KvallyX
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#20 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44415 Posts

@hardwenzen: Can you back up that claim?

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hardwenzen

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#21 hardwenzen  Online
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@Archangel3371 said:

@hardwenzen: Can you back up that claim?

Do you want me to post a review of a guy who've played it 500 hours, and mentions how flawed their procedurally generated content is? Cuz that's easy, and someone who spent 500h+ in the game knows wtf he is talking about.

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#22 DaVillain  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 56316 Posts

With the way No Man's Sky uses "procedurally generated" system, I can say it was a successful tech back in 2016 when that game released. And now with the upcoming Light No Fire, I'm far more curious as to how "procedurally generated" will do on a single giant planet when Light No Fire comes out. The tech has its place and how it is used by developers will find a successful or it's a failure.

Oh and as for Starfield...no comment.

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#23  Edited By sakaiXx
Member since 2013 • 15977 Posts

Depends on implementation. Bloodborne did it with Chalice Dungeon and honestly its a slog to go through in later stages due to repetitive stage and environment design. No Man Sky on the other hand did it great, I personally enjoyed the original iteration and resource gathering nature of original release. I haven't been back since the Next gen update but I read in the subreddit it since gotten much better with frequent massive updates.

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#24  Edited By Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44415 Posts

@hardwenzen: You said that not many AAA games use procedurally generated content in games. Can you back that claim up? 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Didn’t ask if you could post something about someone else’s opinion about Starfield but I guess that’s all you got on most things anyway. 😅

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#25  Edited By Rewgle
Member since 2022 • 412 Posts


I remember when the PS4 was coming out and procedurally-generated content was the word. Don't Starve comes to mind in particular. Now that an XBOX game has it, it's a bad thing? Hmmm, me dunno....

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hardwenzen

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#26 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts

@Archangel3371 said:

@hardwenzen: You said that not many AAA games use procedurally generated content in games. Can you back that claim up? 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Didn’t ask if you could post something about someone else’s opinion about Starfield but I guess that’s all you got on most things anyway. 😅

Firstly, its not an opinion, but fact. Starfield procedural content is one of the worst seen in a game, and possibly THE worst of any AAA title. Well, actually, i'd give that to D4, but maybe Starfield is second.

Secondly, procedural content is pretty obvious, it changes, and in most aa/aaa games it doesn't so🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

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Pedro

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#27 Pedro
Member since 2002 • 70147 Posts

@Archangel3371 said:

@hardwenzen: You said that not many AAA games use procedurally generated content in games. Can you back that claim up? 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Didn’t ask if you could post something about someone else’s opinion about Starfield but I guess that’s all you got on most things anyway. 😅

Loading Video...

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#28 WitIsWisdom
Member since 2007 • 9587 Posts

Procedurally generated content isn't going anywhere and will only continue to get better. It's only a matter of time until the technology and parameters grow to the point that more developers are using AI and procedural generation than any other tool. You don't have to like it, but it's inevitable.

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Archangel3371

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#29 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44415 Posts

@hardwenzen: So that’s a “no” then.

K thnx bye. 😅👋

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#30 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44415 Posts

@Pedro: Sadly the uploader of that video did not make it available in my country. 😔

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#31 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 34724 Posts

There are games that do it well, so yeah, I'd like to see it continue and improve.

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#32 Last_Lap
Member since 2023 • 6546 Posts

@Archangel3371 said:

@Pedro: Sadly the uploader of that video did not make it available in my country. 😔

Yeah same here what gives?

I've always wondered how you can upload a video to Youtube and pick which countries can see it, makes no sense to block it from other countries when Youtube is all about views.

More views = more money.

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Archangel3371

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#33 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44415 Posts

@last_lap: I think it has to do with different media rights in different countries. One company may hold the rights to broadcast something in one country while another company or companies may hold the rights to broadcast it in other countries. Or something of that nature.

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#34 Last_Lap
Member since 2023 • 6546 Posts

@Archangel3371 said:

@last_lap: I think it has to do with different media rights in different countries. One company may hold the rights to broadcast something in one country while another company or companies may hold the rights to broadcast it in other countries. Or something of that nature.

I understand if it was on a news channel where their affiliate in another country may hold the rights, but on Youtube though? Also I don't know what is on the video Pedro was posting.

Youtube is the place where content is stolen everyday and nothing ever happens.

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#35  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23974 Posts
@hardwenzen said:
@pyro1245 said:
  • Dead Cells - Great, branching level design based on themes.
  • Deep Rock Galactic - Very cool systems of destructible caves.
  • RimWorld, Dwarf Fortress - Emergent narratives built on tons of systems interacting. Dwarf Fortress litterally generates generations of history and events to build the world.
  • 7 Days To Die - It has taken the devs a while, but the maps this game generates are pretty wild. They feature dense cities with high rises, suburbs, sparsely populated forests and mountains. It may look a bit weird because of the voxel nature of the building and crafting systems, but the concepts are there.

Bethesda games have always relied on procedural generation at least to start with. The trouble with Starfield is just they set their goal at sparsely populated planets. Bethesda world design is at it's best when they use a mix of PG and artistic design. I don't think PG is to blame for the flawed design goals of BGS when developing Starfield.

To take it a step further, I want to see more attempts at prcedural generation using AI to fill the world with unique structures, NPCs, and events. I realize that one might take a while to produce meaningful results, but I'm here for it.

Of the games you've mentioned, i can only see RimWorld being better with procedural generation than not, and that's because the visuals are very simple. Titles with better graphical fidelity, where you're able to clearly distinguish structures and assets, i don't think its adding anything to the experience.

And while Bethesda did a pathetic job with Starfield, Starfield is far from being the only game where its this apparent. Bloodborne chalice dungeons as an example, was the game that showed me how far behind this technology is when compared to a talented developer like Fromsoft, and their handcrafted levels.

If you had actually played those games, you would have known that procederal generation is adds to those games, but alas, you called Dwarf Fortress an Ant Game, so I doubt you played it.

Human designed encounters does not mean the encounters are necessarily good either. Just look at how uninspired the encounter design was in Baldur's Gate 3.

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KvallyX

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#36 KvallyX
Member since 2019 • 13083 Posts

@hardwenzen said:
@Archangel3371 said:

@hardwenzen: You said that not many AAA games use procedurally generated content in games. Can you back that claim up? 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Didn’t ask if you could post something about someone else’s opinion about Starfield but I guess that’s all you got on most things anyway. 😅

Firstly, its not an opinion, but fact. Starfield procedural content is one of the worst seen in a game, and possibly THE worst of any AAA title. Well, actually, i'd give that to D4, but maybe Starfield is second.

Secondly, procedural content is pretty obvious, it changes, and in most aa/aaa games it doesn't so🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

You have 0.0 hours in the game. You have zero credibility here.

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#37 SecretPolice
Member since 2007 • 44214 Posts

Poo cows...

lol :P

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#38 dabear
Member since 2002 • 8887 Posts

@hardwenzen: 83 on metacritic is now "mostly negative"

Congratulations, you've de-evolved into the elusive, privative species known as "Clownicus Trollii", aka "Clown Troll"

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#39 dabear
Member since 2002 • 8887 Posts
@lamprey263 said:

I wanna see more negatively reviewed games people still feel compelled to put a few hundred hours into before they come to that conclusion. 🤣

I don't necessarily have anything against procedural generation, works well in roguelikes or anything else that uses a random seed to generate a world, just that infinitely large world bullcrap never seems to work.

Exactly. "Oh, this game is terrible! (but I logged 600 hours in it and got every achievement)".

I quit Baldur's Gate 3 after 5 hours - I found the turn based combat tedious. And, watching a dice roll take place to see if my speech options work was cute the first 8 times, but equally tedious after that. Maybe I'll go back to it if I'm bored this summer, but it certainly did not take me hundreds of hours of game play to figure that out.

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#40  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 23974 Posts
@dabear said:

@hardwenzen: 83 on metacritic is now "mostly negative"

Congratulations, you've de-evolved into the elusive, privative species known as "Clownicus Trollii", aka "Clown Troll"

He is referring to Latest Reviews on Steam. Not overall (where it is mixed), latest. The ammount of cherrypicking to support a narrative is on par with the worst Twitter trolls I have seen.

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hardwenzen

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#41  Edited By hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts

@dabear said:

@hardwenzen: 83 on metacritic is now "mostly negative"

Congratulations, you've de-evolved into the elusive, privative species known as "Clownicus Trollii", aka "Clown Troll"

Really? I have the Mostly Negative in my gif, and you're still having trouble seeing where its coming from? No wonder you have 700h in the game, dabear.

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hardwenzen

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#42 hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts
@kvallyx said:
@hardwenzen said:
@Archangel3371 said:

@hardwenzen: You said that not many AAA games use procedurally generated content in games. Can you back that claim up? 🤷‍♂️

Edit: Didn’t ask if you could post something about someone else’s opinion about Starfield but I guess that’s all you got on most things anyway. 😅

Firstly, its not an opinion, but fact. Starfield procedural content is one of the worst seen in a game, and possibly THE worst of any AAA title. Well, actually, i'd give that to D4, but maybe Starfield is second.

Secondly, procedural content is pretty obvious, it changes, and in most aa/aaa games it doesn't so🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️

You have 0.0 hours in the game. You have zero credibility here.

Good to know. Now there are 500h+ people who are stating what i did before the game was released. How is this possible?🤡

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KvallyX

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#43 KvallyX
Member since 2019 • 13083 Posts

@hardwenzen said:
@kvallyx said:

You have 0.0 hours in the game. You have zero credibility here.

Good to know. Now there are 500h+ people who are stating what i did before the game was released. How is this possible?🤡

Talk to us after you have more than 0.0 hours in Starfield.

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hardwenzen

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#44 hardwenzen  Online
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@kvallyx said:
@hardwenzen said:
@kvallyx said:

You have 0.0 hours in the game. You have zero credibility here.

Good to know. Now there are 500h+ people who are stating what i did before the game was released. How is this possible?🤡

Talk to us after you have more than 0.0 hours in Starfield.

I don't need to, the whole youtube, the ones who've spent 50-600h in the game are repeating what i've been saying since launch😆

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#45 KvallyX
Member since 2019 • 13083 Posts

@hardwenzen said:
@kvallyx said:
@hardwenzen said:
@kvallyx said:

You have 0.0 hours in the game. You have zero credibility here.

Good to know. Now there are 500h+ people who are stating what i did before the game was released. How is this possible?🤡

Talk to us after you have more than 0.0 hours in Starfield.

I don't need to, the whole youtube, the ones who've spent 50-600h in the game are repeating what i've been saying since launch😆

Who spends 600 hours playing a game they don't like?

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uninspiredcup

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#46 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 59238 Posts

I don't like to tar it all as universally bad.

I had a grand time with Elite: Dangerous, easily poured many dozens of hours into it.

That kind of scale and grandeur, where it feels like you are actually in an unpredictable universe of enormous scale is something can't really hand craft without help.

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hardwenzen

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#47  Edited By hardwenzen  Online
Member since 2005 • 39601 Posts

@kvallyx said:
@hardwenzen said:
@kvallyx said:
@hardwenzen said:
@kvallyx said:

You have 0.0 hours in the game. You have zero credibility here.

Good to know. Now there are 500h+ people who are stating what i did before the game was released. How is this possible?🤡

Talk to us after you have more than 0.0 hours in Starfield.

I don't need to, the whole youtube, the ones who've spent 50-600h in the game are repeating what i've been saying since launch😆

Who spends 600 hours playing a game they don't like?

The ones that want to expose all its issues, and remind everyone how clueless Bathesda is.

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Archangel3371

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#48 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 44415 Posts

@last_lap: Similar rules apply to YouTube and companies file DMCA takedowns all the time. YouTubers are generally terrified of getting strikes against their channel. Too many could result in your channel being shutdown. Not all companies police places like YouTube all that diligently though but some, especially Nintendo, do it with much gusto. Anyway when an uploader of a video blocks it’s viewership in different countries I believe it’s typically a company who is running that YouTube account. They generally know not to step on the toes of others who have the media rights to that content.

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Gifford38

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#49 Gifford38
Member since 2020 • 7263 Posts

Yes starfield planet generation does suck. Most boring open area ever played. Currently lol 29 and once I got the ship I wanted it started to get really boring.

Sucks to starfield ship building and base is awesome.

But planet generation is what was wrong with the game.

Felt like space though being empty but it's game and doesn't have to be lol.

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KvallyX

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#50 KvallyX
Member since 2019 • 13083 Posts

@gifford38 said:

Yes starfield planet generation does suck. Most boring open area ever played. Currently lol 29 and once I got the ship I wanted it started to get really boring.

Sucks to starfield ship building and base is awesome.

But planet generation is what was wrong with the game.

Felt like space though being empty but it's game and doesn't have to be lol.

Planet generation in the game is awesome, and it's like real life. Desolate. And that is 900 of them. The other 100 planets are handcrafted and populated, and not generated. REAL nice Clark, REAL nice.