A new candidate in the "best ever" narratives in videogames (well, not so new)

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#1 Edited by Basinboy (13364 posts) -

I dedicate this thread to our colleague and peer, @charizard1605, who I have to thank for pressing me to commit the time and attention to see the game through. I now have to credit him with being the driving force for both P4G and the following game, so if we ever meet in life I'll be sure to treat him to his drink/meal of choice. But in the interim, I'll keep giving him the credit.

But alas, the game I'm here to shower with praise and urge all who enjoy narrative-centric games to play is none other than:

This may not come as news to many, seeing as I'm rather late to this shindig. But as I watch the credits roll, I am really floored with how a game with such a tiny budget (and painfully obvious shortcomings due to such) could be a thousand-fold more consequential than the AAA drivel that gets shoveled our way. DONTNOD's commitment to the narrative themes - and the central gameplay mechanic - is inspiring, in spite of the frustrations that said commitment does create.

While I will certainly sound off my adulation for Life Is Strange to all who will hear, I admit that I would have preferred it not have been encapsulated as a videogame. The interactivity is necessary to give weight to the course you chart and feel the burden of caring after the characters in its tale, but the ancillary paths you can take are largely fluff, expose the cast's poorer performances, and strain the writing. Plus there is little in the form of reward from exploring the secondary and tertiary dilemmas and relationships. And, like many other games in this genre, it exacts a specific type of toll on the player to see it through the 10-15 hour asking price, most of which - I expect - one will expend in solitude.

But that aside, the payoff at the finish line is magnificent and beautifully brings together a tale that touches on very grounded, human concerns and blends it with a touch of the supernatural that veers about wildly in its final chapter. I cannot give it a stronger recommendation if you're in the need for a quality story, be that in gaming or otherwise.

And thanks Char - you're still a weeaboo, but I mean that in the most complimentary of ways.

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#2 Posted by I_P_Daily (6874 posts) -

Blog it.

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#3 Posted by Basinboy (13364 posts) -

@i_p_daily: I just did

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#4 Posted by MirkoS77 (12907 posts) -

Haven’t seen Char in a bit. Suspect he’s moved over to ERA.

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#5 Posted by Litchie (21231 posts) -

I'm not looking for a good narrative in videogames. But if a game has a good narrative and the gameplay doesn't suck too much, I can still appreciate it. Doubt I'll ever play Life is Strange, though. Not what I'm looking for in games..

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#6 Edited by Basinboy (13364 posts) -

@MirkoS77: I’ve not seen him around anywhere for a long while, so I felt the need to encapsulate my nod somewhere.

Also, ResetEra?

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#7 Posted by Nike_Air (19078 posts) -

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 flopped , so char is probably hiding in shame for a bit. He'll be back once he recovers.

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#8 Posted by Sam3231 (2059 posts) -

Yeah it's good.

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#9 Posted by Jag85 (11365 posts) -

I've always maintained that visual novels have the best narratives ever in gaming (e.g. Clannad, Steins Gate, YU-NO, Ever 17, Grisaia, etc.)

Life is Strange could almost be considered a kind of visual novel.

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#10 Posted by MirkoS77 (12907 posts) -

@Basinboy said:

@MirkoS77: I’ve not seen him around anywhere for a long while, so I felt the need to encapsulate my nod somewhere.

Also, ResetEra?

Yup.

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#11 Posted by hrt_rulz01 (15570 posts) -

Yep, LIS is awesome. Looking forward to the conclusion of Before the Storm, and season 2!

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#13 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

It seems that Life is Strange now has influenced works outside of gaming

Max Caulfield of LIS

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Max Mayfield of Stranger Things

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#14 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@hrt_rulz01 said:

Yep, LIS is awesome. Looking forward to the conclusion of Before the Storm, and season 2!

And Before The Storm looks like it can match the original.

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#15 Posted by hrt_rulz01 (15570 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

Yep, LIS is awesome. Looking forward to the conclusion of Before the Storm, and season 2!

And Before The Storm looks like it can match the original.

I've been pleasantly surprised by how good it is...

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#16 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@Jag85 said:

I've always maintained that visual novels have the best narratives ever in gaming (e.g. Clannad, Steins Gate, YU-NO, Ever 17, Grisaia, etc.)

Life is Strange could almost be considered a kind of visual novel.

But it also has classic adventure game elements.

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#17 Posted by Needhealing (712 posts) -

I'm charizards alt account, lol. But seriously, not into a game with those "themes".

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#18 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@needhealing said:

I'm charizards alt account, lol. But seriously, not into a game with those "themes".

Those "themes" have made the series a hit, and a break from the Nazi Zombie Alien Monster from a secret Order slaying games we get feed, month after month.

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#19 Posted by henrythefifth (1062 posts) -

Hahaha! The game actually sounds like it was written by fifteen year old suffering from a bad case of teen angst.

Good narrative? Only if you compare it to Trump's Tweets...

Tsk.

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#20 Posted by shellcase86 (3628 posts) -

I played through and completed it. Enjoyed it for what it was, but I personally felt the narrative was sub-par.

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#21 Posted by Vatusus (8413 posts) -

Meh

LiS is definitely the better of these "choose your own narrative QTE/walking simulator" games but still had some serious plot holes. The 1st episode is great but the game looses serious momentum after that

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#22 Posted by Basinboy (13364 posts) -

@hrt_rulz01 said:

Yep, LIS is awesome. Looking forward to the conclusion of Before the Storm, and season 2!

I managed to snag the Deluxe Edition from Amazon when they mistakenly priced it for $6, but I'm not one to play these kind of games having to wait for future episodes. Once episode 5 lands (in light of how much I enjoyed LiS), I'm definitely going to give it a go.

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#23 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@Basinboy said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

Yep, LIS is awesome. Looking forward to the conclusion of Before the Storm, and season 2!

I managed to snag the Deluxe Edition from Amazon when they mistakenly priced it for $6, but I'm not one to play these kind of games having to wait for future episodes. Once episode 5 lands (in light of how much I enjoyed LiS), I'm definitely going to give it a go.

Before the Storm ends on Episode 3

@Vatusus said:

Meh

LiS is definitely the better of these "choose your own narrative QTE/walking simulator" games but still had some serious plot holes. The 1st episode is great but the game looses serious momentum after that

Really?

The common consensus is that the game picks up momentum and the first episode is the weakest.

Also, really, what serious plot holes?

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#24 Posted by lifelessablaze (781 posts) -

just reported OP for not blogging it. I hope the mods are swift with the banhammer.

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#25 Posted by aigis (7353 posts) -

I like LiS but that 5th chapter really killed it for me in a lot of ways. P4G is where its at

Also who cares sw is pretty slow these days, we should be happy for content

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#26 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis said:

I like LiS but that 5th chapter really killed it for me in a lot of ways. P4G is where its at

Also who cares sw is pretty slow these days, we should be happy for content

The 5th Chapter summed up what the game was about, everything in the 5th episode was touched upon and foreshadowed throughout the game, and the ending was foreshadowed at the end of the alternate reality section of episode 4.

And LIS is far above the Persona series in portraying teenage struggles and depicting taboo issues. Persona is amateur hour compared to LIS.

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#27 Posted by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: naw, the last episode was rushed too much. Warren suddenly knows everything and picking the ending the devs really didnt want you to pick even though that is the person you are most invested really puts a damper on everything. Persona is the better story because everyone has a chance to grow and to breath. Much better then those flat arcs

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#28 Edited by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis said:

@texasgoldrush: naw, the last episode was rushed too much. Warren suddenly knows everything and picking the ending the devs really didnt want you to pick even though that is the person you are most invested really puts a damper on everything. Persona is the better story because everyone has a chance to grow and to breath. Much better then those flat arcs

Warren has a hunch, he doesn't actually truly know, neither does Chloe. Max herself also surmises that the storm is caused by her actions and that's a couple episodes ago. The entire game was about picking Chloe or everyone else, it was not shoehorned or rushed in.

Persona is an ensemble piece, which means while the overall cast may get more character work, they lack a character as deep as Max, Chloe, or Rachel. Also the actual story is far better than the messes that are the Persona games.

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#29 Posted by Basinboy (13364 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:
@Basinboy said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

Yep, LIS is awesome. Looking forward to the conclusion of Before the Storm, and season 2!

I managed to snag the Deluxe Edition from Amazon when they mistakenly priced it for $6, but I'm not one to play these kind of games having to wait for future episodes. Once episode 5 lands (in light of how much I enjoyed LiS), I'm definitely going to give it a go.

Before the Storm ends on Episode 3

Truly? Suppose "later" just became "sooner"

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#30 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@Basinboy said:
@texasgoldrush said:
@Basinboy said:
@hrt_rulz01 said:

Yep, LIS is awesome. Looking forward to the conclusion of Before the Storm, and season 2!

I managed to snag the Deluxe Edition from Amazon when they mistakenly priced it for $6, but I'm not one to play these kind of games having to wait for future episodes. Once episode 5 lands (in light of how much I enjoyed LiS), I'm definitely going to give it a go.

Before the Storm ends on Episode 3

Truly? Suppose "later" just became "sooner"

Before The Storm is 3 episodes, which the last episode comes in Dec 20th.

It also has a bonus 4th episode that takes place when Max and Chloe were 13 and 14, that's a standalone story.

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#31 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: how the hell does warren come up with such a specific hunch and why do we act upon it??? It was obviously so we could get the the conclusion, it was completely rushed, there are no two ways about it. And no, the entire game was about the relationship between max and chloe, so the logical choice would be to stick with the people who the player has an investment in, the other characters are not fleshed out enough for me to care all that much. It would be fine but the devs put no effort into that ending compared to the other one, its so obvious they want you to choose one way which against the whole idea of the game.

Persona has more characters and you get to spend way more time with to fully flesh them out, usually getting at least 2 arcs just for themselves if not more. Max has little sway over character and growth because there are many choices in the game, she isnt deep because the game cannot function if she was. She is a great character, but not a deep one. Chloe is the only one in the game with character growth and she is a good character, but imho not up to persona standards cause she really only starts to turn towards the very end with little time to contemplate or see the change effect her and her life. Rachel isnt in the game.

But we have had the conversation before so I know you use the term character growth very... liberally. Anyone else want to take this one, I dont know if I want to punish myself some more.

Also im still waiting fir your explaination on why warren is C O M P L E X

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#32 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis said:

@texasgoldrush: how the hell does warren come up with such a specific hunch and why do we act upon it??? It was obviously so we could get the the conclusion, it was completely rushed, there are no two ways about it. And no, the entire game was about the relationship between max and chloe, so the logical choice would be to stick with the people who the player has an investment in, the other characters are not fleshed out enough for me to care all that much. It would be fine but the devs put no effort into that ending compared to the other one, its so obvious they want you to choose one way which against the whole idea of the game.

Persona has more characters and you get to spend way more time with to fully flesh them out, usually getting at least 2 arcs just for themselves if not more. Max has little sway over character and growth because there are many choices in the game, she isnt deep because the game cannot function if she was. She is a great character, but not a deep one. Chloe is the only one in the game with character growth and she is a good character, but imho not up to persona standards cause she really only starts to turn towards the very end with little time to contemplate or see the change effect her and her life. Rachel isnt in the game.

But we have had the conversation before so I know you use the term character growth very... liberally. Anyone else want to take this one, I dont know if I want to punish myself some more.

Also im still waiting fir your explaination on why warren is C O M P L E X

You are not getting it.

Its not rushed, the writers simply put, do not focus on the supernatural elements. Its unimportant really to the story how it works. Warren infers what he thinks he knows what is going on though what he knows about science and what he knows about sci fi tropes. Hell, the game doesn't even tell you whether its sci fi or fantasy, it doesn't care. Its not important. Next, Warren, Victoria, Frank, Joyce, Kate, etc are fleshed out, just not as much as Chloe because, well, Chloe is the deuteragonist. They are only fleshed out as they need to be and they are fleshed out enough to get Max a perspective on whats going on.

Persona games lack depth in one huge character, the protagonist. This cannot be denied or argued against. I most stories, the protagonist is by far the deepest character and the Persona series lacks that. In the Life is Strange games however, the protagonist's character defines the gameplay. Max is a deep character and so is Chloe, they both have their thoughts and feelings, both have clearly defined moral boundaries and traits that restrict what the player can choose. Max defines the original game, and her character development drives the story with the help of Chloe's. And Chloe's development drives Before The Storm with the help of Rachel's development. They are fully dynamic round characters, far more than any Persona character arc you want to tout. Its not even worth arguing, because you have the flat earth position here. In Persona games, the cast defines scenes, not the entire narrative. For example, Ann drives the first palace arc in P5, and then fades in importance afterward, making way for other cast members. In LIS, Kate's storyline ripples through the entire game, and impacts Max and even Chloe's character. And finally, Rachel is the third most important character in the LIS universe. Even in the original she is a major factor. And she is in the prequel.

You have shown that you simply do not get it and that your bias towards the Persona series clouds your grasp of the facts.

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#33 Posted by Vatusus (8413 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

Also, really, what serious plot holes?

Loading Video...

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#34 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

You are not getting it.

Its not rushed, the writers simply put, do not focus on the supernatural elements. Its unimportant really to the story how it works. Warren infers what he thinks he knows what is going on though what he knows about science and what he knows about sci fi tropes. Hell, the game doesn't even tell you whether its sci fi or fantasy, it doesn't care. Its not important. Next, Warren, Victoria, Frank, Joyce, Kate, etc are fleshed out, just not as much as Chloe because, well, Chloe is the deuteragonist. They are only fleshed out as they need to be and they are fleshed out enough to get Max a perspective on whats going on.

Persona games lack depth in one huge character, the protagonist. This cannot be denied or argued against. I most stories, the protagonist is by far the deepest character and the Persona series lacks that. In the Life is Strange games however, the protagonist's character defines the gameplay. Max is a deep character and so is Chloe, they both have their thoughts and feelings, both have clearly defined moral boundaries and traits that restrict what the player can choose. Max defines the original game, and her character development drives the story with the help of Chloe's. And Chloe's development drives Before The Storm with the help of Rachel's development. They are fully dynamic round characters, far more than any Persona character arc you want to tout. Its not even worth arguing, because you have the flat earth position here. In Persona games, the cast defines scenes, not the entire narrative. For example, Ann drives the first palace arc in P5, and then fades in importance afterward, making way for other cast members. In LIS, Kate's storyline ripples through the entire game, and impacts Max and even Chloe's character. And finally, Rachel is the third most important character in the LIS universe. Even in the original she is a major factor. And she is in the prequel.

You have shown that you simply do not get it and that your bias towards the Persona series clouds your grasp of the facts.

Pot calling kettle

Warren's "inference" is pulled out of his ass as a way to get to the endpoint. There is no reason for him to even make this connection and he is not a science prodigy, I saw im get a B on that test. But lets take it as Warren's guess, why do we follow a guess from someone who doesnt know anything? Its not a small thing, we kill people over it, we kill people over a guess. It cant be seen as anything but rushed, the developers themselves said they ran out of budget on the 5th episode. They were trying to wrap things up and they needed Max to make that choice, Warren was an easy out. The other characters are not fleshed out, pls give me a write up like I did for the amazing himiko for warren. "They are only fleshed out as they need to be and they are fleshed out enough to get Max a perspective on whats going on.", ya they are one note to gain that perspective, there are no arcs.

"Persona games lack depth in one huge character, the protagonist", no shit you want to bash Link while you are at it? Its supposed to be you, its a silent protag, its about immersion and being connected with the characters around you, which persona kicks LiS in the teeth. Are really trying to find problems, are you really that desperate to find a win? Max is not deep just like persona protags arent deep, they are supposed to be conduits for player agency, just because Max has a base personality doesnt mean she has any complexity. Max lacks any definite growth because the game cannot function like that, the game has many different Max's there is not one Max you can point to and say, this is the one true Max. The choices can differ, I can be complete dick to chloe, I can ignore people in need, I can ignore the moral at the end, all these are very different from a Max who does these things. Its like saying the Persona protags are complex because I cant randomly beat people I find in the streets, "ohhh the protag must have a moral code, so complex", but really its just the game has to map out your choices. Im also not talking about BtS, so drop it. Your ideas of character development are so terrible, you say I have a flat earth position, but you have a flat arc position lol. You literally go against the dictionary because you cant form a real argument. Just because a character isnt the focus all the time doesnt mean they are not important, Ann has moments throughout the game (especially towards the end), she is always there and she cant be the focus the entire time cause they are giving arcs to other characters. Persona develops those characters way better. Ann 2-3 arcs, Warren 0 arcs, Victoria 0 arcs, Joyce 0 arcs, Kate 0 arcs, ect... They all have one note they play the entire game.

And you are biased for LiS, the difference is I can actually form a arguement based on what is in the game not just say "its good you just dont get it". You fail to give an actual thought out argument, its not even worth talking about, you proved again and again that you dont have a clue about narrative structure and characterization, something I very much value in games. I even like LiS, but lets not pretend its a masterpiece and every character is the most fleshed out ever

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#35 Posted by Basinboy (13364 posts) -

@lifelessablaze said:

just reported OP for not blogging it. I hope the mods are swift with the banhammer.

#MasterRacePrivilege

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#36 Posted by nygamespotter (511 posts) -

One of the best interactive cinematic games I've played. Up there with the likes of Walking Dead.

I loved the setting. There needs to be more narrative driven games set in high school or colleges.

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#37 Edited by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis: You forget that Max was going to tell Warren in Episode 1 about her powers, Nevermind she told him to help her look at movies and sci fi works. Its all in the narrative, you missed the signs that point to why he was the right character to suggest that she was at fault. Its also a self aware "Genre savvy" moment. Also, Chloe suggested the same thing that warren did. She also suggests that the storm as connected to Rachel (which with the prequel, makes sense).

Absolutely wrong on Max. She is not an avatar on player agency at all, and the agency you have is limited to her character traits. You simply do not get the concept on that while you can make some choices with her, she is her own character. She cannot do anything she wouldn't do, and you cannot choose decisions she wouldn't make. Also, the entire mental dialogue aspect defeats any notion that she is an avatar for player agency. She tells you how she feels about something. Its not open to your interpretation, its not open to how you think the character sees the world, its how Max sees the world. Max lacks definite growth? Seriously. Her entire tale is a coming of age story, of course she grows. That's the whole story. In fact, not only is she the game's protagonist, she is the game's true antagonist as well. The entire nightmare scene is her inner conflict, which is resolved by Chloe giving her strength. Its the microcosm of her development. She develops to become her own antagonist, and through her friendship with Chloe, resolves it. Its true the other way around as well.

"The choices can differ, I can be complete dick to Chloe, I can ignore people in need, I can ignore the moral at the end, all these are very different from a Max who does these things."

Lets go through this shall we, Max isn't a complete dick to Chloe but is able to side against her if she thinks it is right (if she can be suck a dick to Chloe, than she would not go through time, space, and hell to try and save her), helping everyone in need is not really part of her personality in the first place (remember she tries to help Kate because she is already friends with her), and both endings have their morals.

As for Persona, yes Ann as her moments, but she is no longer truly important to the story, she is now just part of the ensemble. Contrast this with Kate, whose story matters because not just her character arc (yes, she is a dynamic character who changes through the story), but because her story is key to the plot and kicks off the investigation into the dark room. And sorry, saying that Persona characters develop better than a character like Max or Chloe is a flat earth position.

I do like LIS more than Persona, but I am not taking these earth is flat and the sun revolves around it positions you are taking.

@Vatusus:That's a bunch of reaching, plus the video maker should pay attention to the ghost deer more.

If their is any "plot hole", its the age inconsistencies in regard to what class the Blackwell students are, but then, that's a minor issue in the scope of the plot.

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#38 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: again you ignore the point. How the **** do warren and I guess chloe too know that max was the cause of the storm. Your answer is they took a guess because they watch sci fi movies. What an excellent guess with no way to know if the answer they pulled out of their ass is right. So what are we going to use to test this theory? Oh thats right, murdering your friend, pretty shitty if you are wrong, but who cares warrens sci fi knowledge is always on point. You see the problem here? This aint earth is flat shit, there is no reason why warren should know this and there was nothing leading up that explicitly suggested the max was the cause, just that there would eventually be a large story at some point in time.

Max is defined to an extent, but my point is there is not one Max for every player. Am I **** the establishment max who would put a cap in muthafucka if they step on my girl, or am I the max that plays by the rules and wants whats best for everyone. There is no one answer, I would think that the screw the rules max would make for a bigger character growth arc if she chooses the town than the one that always plays nice. She is not the antagonist of the game either, nature itself is. She is not a willing player in any destruction, she messes with nature and nature messes back, that doesnt make her the villian. Does it make her responsible? Yes, antagonist no.

Now here is the part that actually drives me up a wall when I talk to you about this, you dont explain jack shit about your view and then say im wrong when I lay out actual reasons why I think something from the games structure. Provide examples on why you think things, it doesnt make for a good discussion when you dismiss things off hand, mock me, and then provide no substance to support doing it. Kate is not a complex character because she is one note, she is a plot device, she has no arc. Her character is to be bullied, thats her character, she is the equivalent to shiho in P5, there so other people can do things.

Everyone comes from a bias, just because I disagree with you doesnt make me crazy. Being crazy is coming up with things that dont exist like non-transformative growth

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#39 Edited by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis said:

@texasgoldrush: again you ignore the point. How the **** do warren and I guess chloe too know that max was the cause of the storm. Your answer is they took a guess because they watch sci fi movies. What an excellent guess with no way to know if the answer they pulled out of their ass is right. So what are we going to use to test this theory? Oh thats right, murdering your friend, pretty shitty if you are wrong, but who cares warrens sci fi knowledge is always on point. You see the problem here? This aint earth is flat shit, there is no reason why warren should know this and there was nothing leading up that explicitly suggested the max was the cause, just that there would eventually be a large story at some point in time.

Max is defined to an extent, but my point is there is not one Max for every player. Am I **** the establishment max who would put a cap in muthafucka if they step on my girl, or am I the max that plays by the rules and wants whats best for everyone. There is no one answer, I would think that the screw the rules max would make for a bigger character growth arc if she chooses the town than the one that always plays nice. She is not the antagonist of the game either, nature itself is. She is not a willing player in any destruction, she messes with nature and nature messes back, that doesnt make her the villian. Does it make her responsible? Yes, antagonist no.

Now here is the part that actually drives me up a wall when I talk to you about this, you dont explain jack shit about your view and then say im wrong when I lay out actual reasons why I think something from the games structure. Provide examples on why you think things, it doesnt make for a good discussion when you dismiss things off hand, mock me, and then provide no substance to support doing it. Kate is not a complex character because she is one note, she is a plot device, she has no arc. Her character is to be bullied, thats her character, she is the equivalent to shiho in P5, there so other people can do things.

Everyone comes from a bias, just because I disagree with you doesnt make me crazy. Being crazy is coming up with things that dont exist like non-transformative growth

In all your rambling, you still didn't get the point. There is a reason why Warren would know the problem, its the butterfly effect and Chaos theory, it is known scientific theory. Its the same way that he knows how o make a bomb earlier in the game. He is the science guy. Its no cop out, he is in character.

Max is the antagonist because the final conflict is within herself. In the nightmare, there is even a Max vs Max scene, where the other Max just digs in to her for everything that is happening. That represents the battle within herself. It is the friendship with Chloe that resolves this conflict. She is her own main opposition, hence the antagonist as well as the protagonist.

How is Kate one note? She is not. She has no arc? Wow, if she survives, she overcomes her depression. She develops from Max saving her life, including regaining her religious faith. In P5, Shiho is a minor character to where the incident with her doesn't really impact the plot past the first palace. In LIS, the incident with Kate sparks Max and Chloe to investigate the Vortex Club leading to the Dark Room. Kate's suicide attempt is far more important to its plot than Shiho's suicide attempt and Kate matters more to the protagonist than in P5.

And once again, non transformative growth exists. Its called subtlety, learn it. A character does not have to change who he or she is to grow. Once again, for example, a character that learns a lesson but otherwise doesn't change.

You are being dismissed because you aren't getting it, simple as that.

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#40 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: No a bomb I can accept, that is something science guy can do, linking Max to a storm is not. That takes causal linking throughout the universe, a simpler explanation is just that a storm formed, occam's razor, Warren is jumping to a conclusion with no facts to back it up. The way they test this theory is to kill someone, dont tell me this isnt stupid. Warren has no facts, 0.

Again, Max doesnt mean to do any of these things, she is not the bad guy of the story, its nature.

In LIS, the incident with Kate sparks Max and Chloe to investigate the Vortex Club leading to the Dark Room. Kate's suicide attempt is far more important to its plot than Shiho's suicide attempt

Its beat for beat the same thing. Kate trys to kill herself which gives more motivation to find the dark room to punish those responsible. Shiho trys to kill herself which leads Joker, Ann, and Ryuji to steal Kamoshida's treasure. Not important to Joker, but really important to Ann and is the main reason she joins and struggles during her arc. Shiho is literally why they become phantom thieves in the first place.

Now I didnt know about the hospital part cause Kate died in my run, so she can have 0~1 arc and 1~2 notes depending on how you play. The arc is really weak though, its pretty much "hey im better now", there is no scene where you see her actually struggle and change like you do in persona. Ann starts in state of total submission, you see her contemplate being there but she justifies it as for the good of her friend, then when her friend tries to kill herself she realizes that she wasnt helping her by not standing up against those that would abuse their power. Each step of the way you see why she changes and the inner struggle she has, this is not seen anywhere with kate, she is the shiho equivalent. If anything Kate has a little more personal touch since its a relationship with the player character, but really Kate's attempt has next to no impact on the plot given that she was already looking into Nathan for chloe, wheres Shiho kick starts the entire game

non transformative growth exists

no its doesnt its a contradiction you moron, educate yourself. Learning a lesson is changing

You are being dismissed because you aren't getting it, simple as that.

come up with a logical argument then

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#41 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis: Sorry, but the butterfly effect is well known and Warren knows about this. Case closed. There is nothing out of nowhere here. His love for science as well as sci fi movies is well established. LIS uses here what TVTropes calls "Genre Savvy". That was a "Genre Savvy" moment. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is flawed.

Max is the antagonist because her actions overall lead to negative consequences and she does not accept that life cannot be perfect and that she cannot fix everything until the end. The story only concludes not from her defeating nature but overcoming her flaws due to Max's actions allows Chloe to overcome hers. Once again, the Max vs Max scene in the nightmare shows off the concept that the protagonist is the antagonist as well. Also antagonist =/= the bad guy, the villain, the great evil, whatever.

But in p5, Ann and Shiho lose importance in the story, while in LIS Kate does not. What part of this do you not get in your Persona fandom?

And yet writers use non transformable growth all the time. You can do it, the growth is more subtle. You seem to not get that. It seems you do not get the concept of subtlety at all.

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#42 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: the butterfly effect doesnt say that time travel makes tornados. There is no way that Warren should within reason be able to say the two are linked. You saying case closed doesnt make it so. I even went on your assumption that it was a good guess, do you kill someone over a guess. Show me in the game where warren should be able to connect the two events, hint: you cannot. It was a shoehorned in explaination to lead to the end choice. Its bad writing.

No, just because max does things to cause bad things, without her knowledge mind you, it does not make her an evil force. She tries to do good and nature pushes back. The battle she has is not with herself, its with the laws of nature.

Kate doesnt effect the story in any way after she jumps, and one can even argue she has no importance to the plot at all seeing that chloe and max were already hunting nathan to begin with, saying "oh kate" every now and then is not effecting the plot. Never does the plot change course because of kate. Shiho actually on the other hand is the direct catalyst to the phantom thieves formation and she does not guide the plot after either. They are both plot devices, ann is still very much a part of the team and gets her moments to shine in the end too. She actively moves the situations in directions unlike kate.

You pulled a term out of your ass, I get subtlety, but I also understand character growth and arcs. I pulled out a fucking dictionary definition for you and you ignored it cause it doesnt line up with your warped perspective. There is bias and then there is being a total maniac

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#43 Edited by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis: Really? The butterfly effect was coined by Lorentz who based it off his metaphor that a tornado can be influenced by the flapping of a butterfly's wings time and distance ago. Warren kind of knows this, and the game is literally a butterfly and a tornado. You are seeing an issue that simply put, isn't an issue. Its not shoehorned in, its set up by the theories of their sci-fi elements. You refuse to accept this fact. Its bad critique.

Once again, an antagonist does NOT have to be a villain or an evil force, the only thing an antagonist does is oppose the protagonist. Hell, there are stories where the antagonist is the good guy and the protagonist the bad guy. In a coming of age tale, its possible that the protagonist is their own antagonist. its not nature that is her opponent in the end, but her unwillingness to let go and accept that life isn't perfect.

Kate's story she tells Max, well before the jump, clues Max on Nathan. You forgot this. And Kate's story connects with Rachel's disappearance, and she is important to Max in her thoughts and feelings. Remember Max drives the plot. And Ann is nowhere near close to someone like Chloe in driving plot situations.

And once again, growth can be that the character learns a lesson or has a shift in a view, but doesn't change who they are overall. You are too stubborn to accept this. For example, Jacob's story in Mass Effect 2, and outside his new love, Mass Effect 3 as well. He still has an arc, he just doesn't change much who he is.

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#44 Edited by Jag85 (11365 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

It seems that Life is Strange now has influenced works outside of gaming

Max Caulfield of LIS

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Max Mayfield of Stranger Things

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Stranger Things was partly inspired by video games (e.g. Silent Hill, Dark Souls, The Last of Us), along with anime (e.g. Akira, Elfen Lied), Hollywood (e.g. Spielberg, John Carpenter, Lucas, Del Toro), and Stephen King. A video game reference in Stranger Things shouldn't be surprising.

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#45 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush:

Show me in game where you can find evidence to back up why warren would think this. Even if you were right (which youre not) in saying the butterfly effect can hand wave this all away, it still was only brought up in the last moments of the game, therefore still shoehorned. The only fact is it is bad writing, and you dont have a single critical bone in your body when it comes to LiS.

Not if I kill a town do I let go of chloe, there is no real max. The real battle is Max tries to mess with nature and nature messes back. Max does not fight with herself over doing things, if the storm wasnt there she would have continued to mess with time.

Chloe was also attacked by Nathan, they didnt need Kate. And Kate doesnt drive any narrative after, dont switch out arguments on me and not acknowledge it. Chloe is no doubt more important to the plot because she is one of the main characters in a game of 2 main characters, way to cherry pick. Although I would still argue that Ann is more complex just given she does get multiple arcs to call her own while chloe gets 1 overarching arc. A lot of the time spent with Ann is straight character growth. But im going to drop this cause that really comes down to opinion.

A shift in view is growth you idiot. Its change, the character is literally shifting something about themselves

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#46 Posted by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis: Wrong, Max hints that this might be the case in an earlier episode in her journal, meaning she knows of it too. Once again, all in the narrative, so Warren basically saying that she is at fault is nothing out of the blue or shoehorned. I don't have some criticisms? Really. I have said in the past that the villain itself Mr, Jefferson could have been portrayed better, and earlier in this thread did I not say that there were inconsistencies with the characters ages and the classman level?

Max fights and struggles with herself all the time, and the entire nightmare sequence is her inner struggle. That's why its there, because that's were the final conflict lies. You are not getting this concept.

But Kate provided Max with vital clues, where she can connect her to Nathan and Rachel's disappearance. And did you forget that not only does Chloe have a more in depth character arc, she also has two games worth of character? Saying Ann is more complex than Chloe is downright a flat earth position. And an overarching arc will overpower multiple smaller side arcs every time. Chloe impacts the entire plot of LIS while Ann only impacts really, the first third of P5.

But that do not have to transform, what part don't you get about that. Its once again, non-transformable growth.

@Jag85:While 80's movies dominates its influences, with the Goonies probably being the biggest, Life is Strange is clearly its biggest game influence. This was not its only reference. And I say it influences the characterization, unlike other game references.

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#47 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: how does warren know you maniac and I actually liked the villain.

The "inner struggle" was not really struggling it was just her fears and doubts, it in no way impacts what happens later.

Kate points them in a direction they were moving already. And stop bringing up BtS, I told you im not talking about it cause I havent played it. Also Ann has 2 major character arcs that have a much greater range, and she is still very much an important character in the last third of the game as well, she does get lost in the middle a bit, but that is to flesh out other members of the cast, something LiS doesnt do.

Shifting an idea is transforming, even if its a subtle shift, there is change still, are you slow?

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#48 Edited by texasgoldrush (12155 posts) -

@aigis said:

@texasgoldrush: how does warren know you maniac and I actually liked the villain. Also that seems like a very big plot point to hide away in a journal entry.

The "inner struggle" was not really struggling it was just her fears and doubts, it in no way impacts what happens later.

Kate points them in a direction they were moving already. And stop bringing up BtS, I told you im not talking about it cause I havent played it. Also Ann has 2 major character arcs that have a much greater range, and she is still very much an important character in the last third of the game as well, she does get lost in the middle a bit, but that is to flesh out other members of the cast, something LiS doesnt do.

Shifting an idea is transforming, even if its a subtle shift, there is change still, are you slow?

Sorry, but in LIS, they use multiple means to tell the story. They don't just rely on dialogue and cutscenes alone. Max's SMS is also a key storytelling device. Second, Warren is into sci-fi and it shows. It isn't out of the blue to be genre savvy at the moment. And more could have been done to make the villain less goofy and more terrifying, although they have to dodge an AO rating.

The inner struggle is the conflict of the game, what part of this do you not get? Her resolution of this inner conflict resolves the story.

But Kate is the catalyst that actually sparks them into action. They do not investigate until Ep. 3. BtS is now part of the storyline and now part of Chloe's character. And while Ann Is present in the last third, she is not important in the last third, unlike say, Chloe. And you are saying LIS doesn't flesh out its cast? Wow, flat earth argument alert. LIS is one of the top games at fleshing out characters not using dialogue and cutscenes alone, which P5 lacks actually.

But it doesn't have to transform them, they do not have to change overall, who they are. It is you that is slow getting that concept.

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#49 Edited by aigis (7353 posts) -

@texasgoldrush: evidence is evidence, being "genre savvy" is not, show me the proof that explains why warren knows this. Why does Warren connect the two, examples from the game please. Otherwise its a deus ex machina

No it doesnt, you can choose not to accept anything.

Not really, rachel and chloe are the main driving forces. Max just adds kate to the list.

Change is change whether is overall or subtle. If they change in someway from state x to state y, there was a form of growth. That is fact

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#50 Posted by Jag85 (11365 posts) -

@texasgoldrush said:

@Jag85:While 80's movies dominates its influences, with the Goonies probably being the biggest, Life is Strange is clearly its biggest game influence. This was not its only reference. And I say it influences the characterization, unlike other game references.

According to its creators, the biggest game influence was Silent Hill, followed by Dark Souls and The Last of Us. They never cited Life is Strange, probably because they had already completed the first season's script by the time LIS released. However, the subtle references in the second season would indicate LIS at least had some influence on season 2.

In terms of characterization, Stranger Things was mainly inspired by Hollywood movies ('80s movies, Spielberg, Goonies, Shyamalan, John Carpenter, etc.), Japanese anime (Akira, Elfen Lied, etc.), and Stephen King novels.