No cheap shot here: If D-Wade isn't MVP of his own team ...

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/02/04/race-to-mvp-week-15/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt11

1. derrick rose
2. lebron james
3. Dwight Howard
4. kevin Durant
5. Kobe Bryant
6. Chris Paul
7.Wade
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9 russel westbrook

It won't be LBJ or Wade. It won't be Durant or Westbrook It won't be anyone on the Celtics It probably won't be Kobe. It BETTER NOT BE Dwight "I'm an overrated defensive player" Howard. So that leave Rose, CP3 and Dirk.... out of those three I'm going with CP3. Best Assist to TO ratio in the game, most steals per game, and he's shooting almost .500 from behind the three point line.No_Hablo_Ingles

Rose, he's carried that team on his shoulders through all their injuries.

Also, I love Durant, he's supremely talented and capable of singlehandedly taking over a game. Scary to think how young he is.

I think Rose is a no brainer at this point-Halftime-

I wouldn't say no-brainer, I would say clear favorite. Chris Paul and Durant are not that far.

And for God's sake why Dirk Nowitzki is even in the discussion? It's beyond me. I was completely bamboozled when he won in '07. Like Bill Simmons said "If you vote for a complete defensive liability for MVP, he must really have a killer offensive game, and Dirk does not." and "His '07 stats look like a peak Tom Chambers season, and are worse than Bird's best 9 seasons and Karl Malone's best 11 seasons." And Dirk doesn't make his teammates better. He's not a great passer, nor a great rebounder (8.4 career average for a starting 7-footer, never hit 10 RPG for a season).

And his '11 stats are WORSE than his '07 across the boards except FG%.

Dirk Nowitzki is the most overrated star in the league. There, I said it.

Dirk Nowitzki is the most overrated star in the league. There, I said it.BaraChat

And Dirk doesn't make his teammates better. He's not a great passer, nor a great rebounder (8.4 career average for a starting 7-footer, never hit 10 RPG for a season).

And his '11 stats are WORSE than his '07 across the boards except FG%.

Dirk Nowitzki is the most overrated star in the league. There, I said it.BaraChat

He doesnt make his teammates better? :lol: The Mavs were like 2-8 without him recently when he was injured. Some loses were to below average teams. I dont think he's an MVP this year but he his a great player. I dont remember his stats from that year but I can see why he won 1.

[QUOTE="BaraChat"]Dirk Nowitzki is the most overrated star in the league. There, I said it.andyboiii

I got Rose as the MVP so far. He's led the Bulls to a top three seed this season with both Boozer & Noah out for good chunks of the season.

[QUOTE="andyboiii"][QUOTE="BaraChat"]Dirk Nowitzki is the most overrated star in the league. There, I said it.No_Hablo_Ingles

:?

They're the 5th best defensive team in the league right now. Take a look at their roster. There's literally no one you can call a "good" or "above average" defender except for Dwight Howard. Without him there to cover their asses & clean up their mistakes they'd be at best a top 15-to-20 defensive team.

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"][QUOTE="andyboiii"] this is a factSaintBlaze

:?

They're the 5th best defensive team in the league right now. Take a look at their roster. There's literally no one you can call a "good" or "above average" defender except for Dwight Howard. Without him there to cover their asses & clean up their mistakes they'be at best a top 15-to-20 defensive team.

Howard can't guard any center who has a decent midrange post shot, and Yao Ming use to take a **** on Howard's forehead when they played. The only reason Howard is the games "best center" is because Yao, one of the few true Centers left in in Basketball, got hurt.

But these games are coming from which seasons? Thats really not a way to portray his current playing. Most of these games are coming from multiple seasons ago I bet.

He is an overrated defended. His post defense is horrible... his strength is getting blocks on little guards from the weak side that his team allows to the paint. There is a reason players like Yao, Pau, etc. stats IMPROVE when they face him. He can't guard an above average center in the post to save his life.

Howard can't guard any center who has a decent midrange post shot, and Yao Ming use to **** of Howard's forehead when they played. The only reason Howard is the games "best center" is because Yao, one of the few true Centers left in in Basketball, got hurt.

No_Hablo_Ingles

His post defense is horrible? Because he has trouble against the two best offensive centers in the game? lolwut?

He's still elite at weakside & help defense. Without him the Orlando Magic's defense would fall off the side of a cliff. He's carrying a team of mediocre to barely average defenders to a top 5 team defense rating & you want to nitpick on his individual defense against ELITE offensive centers?

Edit: And how recent was that pic taken? Dwight didn't assert himself to be a top tier defender until somewhere around 2007 to 2008.

2nd edit: lol @ you acting like a healthy Yao is a clear cut better player than Dwight. Don't be silly now.

But these games are coming from which seasons? Thats really not a way to portray his current playing. Most of these games are coming from multiple seasons ago I bet.

Darth_Revan_666

But to be honest, I don't see how it really matters. What part of Dwight's game has he improved? FT%? Nope it's still nearly .200 lower then Yao's. FG%? Nope his FG% is actually lower then the 2009 season. Rebounding? It's also lower then the 2009 season. Blocks? Also lower then the 2009 season. Basically every stat Dwight Howard actually regressed in.

So it's clear that Howard hasn't really improved much, if at all.

Last time Dwight Howard played Yao
Howard- .455 FG%, 10 rebounds, 13 points, 3 TOs
Yao- .615 FG%, 16 Rebounds, 20 points, 0 TOs.

[ Those stats are from every game they've played to this point. Sadly since Yao has been injured for the last two years he hasn't been able to dominate Dwight since :(

But to be honest, I don't see how it really matters. What part of Dwight's game has he improved? FT%? Nope it's still nearly .200 lower then Yao's. FG%? Nope his FG% is actually lower then the 2007 season. Rebounding? It's also lower then the 2007 season. Blocks? Exactly the same.

So it's clear that Howard hasn't really improved much, if at all. Last time Dwight Howard played Yao Howard- .455 FG%, 10 rebounds, 13 points, 3 TOs Yao- .615 FG%, 16 Rebounds, 20 points, 0 TOs.No_Hablo_Ingles

You've got to be absolutely insane to think Dwight hasn't improved "at all" in the past two years. He's improved on both ends of the floor. With defense being the most obvious one because of how he's led Orlando to the #1 defensive rating in the NBA for two straight years without any other above average defender on the team. Part of that team success could be attributed to Stan Van Gundy's prowess as a defensive coach, but he'd the first to tell you their defense would fall apart without Dwight.

Dwight's offense this year is the best it's been his entire career. He's still not as good in the lowpost as guys like Gasol, Yao or Duncan, but he's got a better array of moves now. The lower FG% this season could be attributed to the increased number of shots he's taking & him still working out the kinks of his offensive game. Even taking that into account he's still one of the most efficient players in the NBA.

You've got to be absolutely insane to think Dwight hasn't improved "at all" in the past two years. He's improved on both ends of the floor. With defense being the most obvious one because how he's led Orlando to the #1 defensive rating in the NBA for two straight years without any other above average defender on the team. Part of that team success could be attributed to Stan Van Gunday's prowess as a defensive coach but he'd the bfirst to tell you their defense would fall apart without Dwight.

Dwight's offense this year is the best it's been his entire career. He's still not as good in the lowpost as guys like Gasol, Yao or Duncan, but he's got a better array of moves now. The lower FG% this season could be attributed to the increased number of shots he's taking & him still working out the kinks of his offensive game. Even taking that into account he's still one of the most efficient players in the NBA.

SaintBlaze

Offensively, he's attempted to FINALLY learn some post moves and he has failed epically. He's also attempted more jump shots, something he also failed at proof by his LOWER FG%. He scores more points (4 more then the 2010 season) because he attempts 4 more shots per game. His FT% this year is actually LOWER then last years, which is saying a lot since he was already a horrible FT shooter. Not a single stat indicates improvement and watching him Post up is honestly one of the most painful experiences in my Basketball watching life. He literally has a single post move.

Wanna know what's sad? Howard and Yao has had the same teachers, Patrick Ewing and Hakeem the Dream, and Yao improved year by year before he got injured. Dwight hasn't learned a damn thing. It truly is a crime that Yao, who is offensively the most dominate Center in the NBA, is always injured and I'm stuck watching Dwight Howard attempt jump shots and post moves that he simply does not posses the skill to do.

What stats are you using for defense? There are numerous ways to measure how good a defense is, ranging from points allowed per game to the Hollinger system that measure efficiency.

No. He. Has. Not.

Offensively, he's attempted to FINALLY learn some post moves and he has failed epically. He's also attempted more jump shots, something he also failed at proof by his LOWER FG%. He scores more points (4 more then the 2010 season) because he attempts 4 more shots per game. His FT% this year is actually LOWER then last years, which is saying a lot since he was already a horrible FT shooter. Not a single stat indicates improvement and watching him Post up is honestly one of the most painful experiences in my Basketball watching life. He literally has a single post move.

No_Hablo_Ingles

Wow, your hyperbole & exagerration is getting annoying. You're actually under the belief that Dwight hasn't improved AT ALL in the past two years? And that he's failing miserably on offense? *sigh*

His FG% is 3% lower than last season. Big deal. You'd have to actually watch games instead of soley staring at stats to see his improvement. Like I said before, his lowpost game isn't nearly as good as Yao, Gasol or Duncan's, but those guys are elite in that regard. Dwight's shown more moves this season than ever before. Instead of the same left or right jump hook he always relied on, he's more willing to try different moves. So far this season, I've seen him do fadeway bank shots, faceup jumpers, up-and-under moves, running hook shots with both hands etc.., none of which were prominent parts of his offensive arsenal before. He's obviously not as adept on the offense end yet as the elite NBA centers of the past, but he's still a 20+ PPG scorer shooting 58% from the field. That's hardly what I'd call "failing miserably."

Wanna know what's sad? Howard and Yao has had the same teachers, Patrick Ewing and Hakeem the Dream, and Yao improved year by year before he got injured. Dwight hasn't learned a damn thing. It truly is a crime that Yao, who is offensively the most dominate Center in the NBA, is always injured and I'm stuck watching Dwight Howard attempt jump shots and post moves that he simply does not posses the skill to do.

No_Hablo_Ingles

Again, this notion that Dwight hasn't improved AT ALL under Ewing is false. From his rookie year to now he's ten times the player he was. Oh, and BTW, Howard only worked with Hakeem for one summer, Yao's had more time with the Dream.

But, what's pretty weird is that you're focus ing entirely on offense. How about I flip the tables here? Ewing & Hakeeem were two of the most dominant defensive centers of their era, & Dwight's clearly learned a thing or two from them. What about Yao? Was their ever a point where you could have called him the best defensive center in the NBA? Nope. I guess he's "failed miserably" too, right?

What stats are you using for defense? There are numerous ways to measure how good a defense is, ranging from points allowed per game to the Hollinger system that measure efficiency.

No_Hablo_Ingles

I'm using Hollinger's defensive efficiency ratings.

Soley using points allowed per game would be a flawed way of looking at team defense because certains teams play at a higher pace, thus leading to higher points scored by both them & their opponents.

I've also seen them, and that's good that he is trying new thing and adding moves to his pathetically small arsenal. This however means very little seeing as ever since he started using them his FG% has gone down. 20 PPG and 58% shooting is great, but those numbers are inflated because of dunks, are they not?

Again, this notion that Dwight hasn't improved AT ALL under Ewing is false. From his rookie year to now he's ten times the player he was. Oh, and BTW, Howard only worked with Hakeem for one summer, Yao's had more time with the Dream.SaintBlaze

But, what's pretty weird is you focus on offense. How about I flip the tables here? Ewing & Hakeeem were two of the most dominant defensive centers of their era, & Dwight's clearly learned a thing or two from them. What about Yao? Was their ever a point where you could have called him the best defensive center in the NBA? Nope.SaintBlaze

I'm using Hollinger's defensive efficiency ratings which is an amalgam of most team defense stats. Soley ssing points allowed per game would be a flawed way of looking at team defense because certains teams play at a higher pace, thus leading to higher points scored by both them & their opponents.SaintBlaze

LOL @ calling Dwight the most overrated basketball player when you have people like Steve Nash and Nowitzki playing.-Halftime-

"I've also seen them, and that's good that he is trying new thing and adding moves to his pathetically small arsenal. This however means very little seeing as ever since he started using them his FG% has gone down. 20 PPG and 58% shooting is great, but those numbers are inflated because of dunks, are they not?"

*facepalm*

His fg% went down a whopping 3 percent dude. He went from being a power dunker with the occasional running/jump hook to a player with a wider array of moves & much more jump shot attempts. A 3 percent decline is no big deal.

The prior two seasons he led the NBA in dunks per game & total on the season by a wide margin. This season he's trailing Blake Griffin & Amare in total dunks. So no, his numbers aren't "inflated".

" Yeah... improving from your rookie year is nothing to brag about. Basically every star does that. Howard said he really didn't learn anything from Hakeem anyway..."

So we're in agreement that he's improved. So that "No.He.Has.Not" schtick should be thrown out the window.

And when did dwight say that?

Because he isn't the best defensive center... that title belongs to players like Ben Wallace and Marcus Camby. Yao Ming was just the best all around Center in the NBA.

No_Hablo_Ingles

So under Ewing & Hakeem, Yao became the best offensive center in the game.

Under the same tutors, Dwight is the best defensive center in the game.

Yet you call one the most overrated superstar in the NBA & the other the best all around player at his position. Fascinating.

You need someone who can hit a critical FT? Yao shots the Technical fouls for the Rockets... Howard missed nearly half his FT in his career. You need someone who can pass the rock? Yao was the best passing Center in the NBA at one point.

No_Hablo_Ingles

Right, so he's better offensively than Dwight. No disagreements here.

But you need a key stop in crunch time or just an anchor in the middle to build a dominant defense with, I'm going with Dwight over Yao 100 out of 100 times.

[QUOTE="-Halftime-"]LOL @ calling Dwight the most overrated basketball player when you have people like Steve Nash and Nowitzki playing.No_Hablo_Ingles

During Steve Nash's best years with Phoenix people were touting him as the best PG in the NBA & top 5 all time at that position.

Dwight is clearly the unquestioned best center in the league because there's no one else close to him at the very moment. The one guy who's on his level (Yao) hasn't played in two years.

Heck, if guys like Oden, Bynum, Yao, Bogut & Noah could stay healthy, there could actually be a discussion of who's the best center in the NBA.

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"][QUOTE="-Halftime-"]LOL @ calling Dwight the most overrated basketball player when you have people like Steve Nash and Nowitzki playing.SaintBlaze

During Steve Nash's best years with Phoenix people were touting him as the best PG in the NBA & top 5 all time at that position.

Dwight is clearly the unquestioned best center in the league because every other player that can be considered above average at the same position is injury prone and/or inferior to him in a good number of categories.

"His fg% went down a whopping 3 percent dude. He went from being a power dunker with the occasional running/jump hook to a player with a wider array of moves & much more jump shot attempts. A 3 percent decline is no big deal. The prior two seasons he led the NBA in dunks per game & total on the season by a wide margin. This season he's trailing Blake Griffin & Amare in total dunks. So no, his numbers aren't "inflated"."

That's actually pretty big from someone who scores exclusively in the paint and trailing in dunks behind those Amare and Blake doesn't mean his FG% isn't inflated...

"So we're in agreement that he's improved.So that "No.He.Has.Not" schtick should be thrown out the window. And when did dwight say that?"

I was talking about between 2009-2011 year dude... if you misunderstood I'm sorry, but I thought I was pretty clear in my initial post that I was referring to the last time Howard and Yao played to now which was the 2009 season.

"So under Ewing & Hakeem, Yao became the best offensive center in the game. Under the same tutors, Dwight is the best defensive center in the game. Yet you call one the most overrated superstar in the NBA & the other the best all around player at his position. Fascinating."

What Center is there to really compete with Dwight now? Darko? JaVale McGee? I'm sorry, but being the best defensive center in the age where all the Great defensive centers retired or are old isn't all that impressive. Howard is an overrated Defensive player. He is basically a lock at DPOTY simply because he has highlight reel blocks.
P.S- Tim Duncan is still a better defensive player then Howard.

"Right, so he's better offensively than Dwight. No disagreements here. But you need a key stop in crunch time or just an anchor in the middle to build a dominant defense with, I'm going with Dwight over Yao 100 out of 100 times."

The Rockets were one of the best defensive teams in the NBA with Yao. According to the Hollinger stats that you use, on Yao's last year with the Rockets (2008-2009) the Rockets were a top 5 defensive team. This year (2010-2011) they are the Seventh Worse in the entire NBA, and their previous year without him they were 17th. I guess having a 7'6 guy in the paint to disrupt shots is kind of big.

Neither of which are currently top at their position though. No one ranks Steve as the best PG in the NBA, and not a single person, discounting Dallas Homer, rank Dirk as the best Powerfoward in the game. No offense to Dwight, but when he is the unquestioned best center in the NBA with his limited offense and average post defense, it shows how far the C position has fallen since the days of Hakeem and Shaq.No_Hablo_Ingles

PLENTY of people ranked Nash as the best PG in the game when he didn't deserve it. That's cooled off now because the Suns aren't that good & because of the emergence of CP3 and Dwill.

Plenty of people still rank Dirk as the best PF in the game too. Heck, early in the season when Dallas were looking like world beaters he was called the MVP & best at his position.

Dwight's an elite defender & does indeed have an average offense, but you're right, the center position has fallen off. Any NBA fan will tell you that.

Dude, I've heard tons of people on this forum this year, and especially in the past who said Nash was the best point guard in the league and just behind Magic and Stockton all time-Halftime-

[QUOTE="-Halftime-"]Dude, I've heard tons of people on this forum this year, and especially in the past who said Nash was the best point guard in the league and just behind Magic and Stockton all timeNo_Hablo_Ingles

Plenty of people still rank Dirk as the best PF in the game too. Heck, early in the season when Dallas were looking like world beaters he was called the MVP & best at his position.

Dwight's an elite defender & does indeed have an average offense, but you're right, the center position has fallen off. Any NBA fan will tell you that.

SaintBlaze

I think it's safe to assume that most people no longer have him as the best PF.

Big men score in the paint. Shaq scored in the paint. Ewing, Hakeem, Kareem & D-rob did too. Are their FG% stats inflated too?

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"]

I was talking about between 2009-2011 year dude... if you misunderstood I'm sorry, but I thought I was pretty clear in my initial post that I was referring to the last time Howard and Yao played to now which was the 2009 season.

No_Hablo_Ingles

I already debunked that myth of yours. His offense is better than it ever was, and he's the reigning DPOTY for the past two years. Each of those years the Magic improved defensively & held the top spot in defensive rating.

What Center is there to really compete with Dwight now? Darko? JaVale McGee? I'm sorry, but being the best defensive center in the age where all the Great defensive centers retired or are old isn't all that impressive. Howard is an overrated Defensive player. He is basically a lock at DPOTY simply because he has highlight reel blocks.
P.S- Tim Duncan is still a better defensive player then Howard.

No_Hablo_Ingles

Dwight is an elite defensive player. So is Bogut. So are plenty of perimeter players in the NBA. We're in agreement that the center posotion is much weaker now than it ever was. That doesn't change the fact that Dwight is an absolute beast on the defensive side of the ball. He's a lock for DPOTY year because he's the best defensive player in the game & the stats (both individual & team) prove it.

Why is he an overrated defender? Because the elite offensive bigs of today go off on him? The big time centers in the 90s went off on each other all the time. I guess they were overrated defenders as well right?

The Rockets were one of the best defensive teams in the NBA with Yao. According to the Hollinger stats that you use, on Yao's last year with the Rockets (2008-2009) the Rockets were a top 5 defensive team. This year (2010-2011) they are the Seventh Worse in the entire NBA, and their previous year without him they were 17th. I guess having a 7'6 guy in the paint to disrupt shots is kind of big.

No_Hablo_Ingles

And those Rockets teams were never the top team in defensive rating like Orlando was for the past two years. Those teams also had better perimeter defenders than Howard has had for the past 3 seasons. That last Rockets team you cited had Shane Battier, Ron Artest, Chuck Hayes & Kyle Lowry as part of their main rotation, all of whom were good-to-elite defenders at the time.

[QUOTE="SaintBlaze"]Plenty of people still rank Dirk as the best PF in the game too. Heck, early in the season when Dallas were looking like world beaters he was called the MVP & best at his position.

Dwight's an elite defender & does indeed have an average offense, but you're right, the center position has fallen off. Any NBA fan will tell you that.

No_Hablo_Ingles

I think it's safe to assume that most people no longer have him as the best PF.

Sure, if this place was the only sports forum on the internet, you'd have a point. Too bad it's not.

He improved? He scores 4 more points per game, but he shots 4 more shots and 1 more FT per game. He might have added more moves, but they are useless when he misses them more then he makes them. The Magic actually got worse from 2008-2009 season to the 2009-2010 season (98.9 to 100.2). So no... they haven't improved each year.

Dwight is an elite defensive player. So is Bogut. So are plenty of perimeter players in the NBA. We're in agreement that the center posotion is much weaker now than it ever was. That doesn't change the fact that Dwight is an absolute beast on the defensive side of the ball. He's a lock for DPOTY year because he's the best defensive player in the game & the stats (both individual & team) prove it.SaintBlaze

Why is he an overrated defender? Because the elite offensive bigs of today go off on him? The big time centers in the 90s went off on each other all the time. I guess they were overrated defenders as well right? SaintBlaze

And those Rockets teams were never the top team in defensive rating like orlando was for the past two years. Those teams also had better perimeter defenders than Howard has had for the past 3 seasons. That last Rockets team you cited had Shane Battier, Ron Artest, Chuck Hayes & Kyle Lowry as part of their main rotation, all of whom are good-to-elite defenders.

SaintBlaze

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"]

[QUOTE="SaintBlaze"]Plenty of people still rank Dirk as the best PF in the game too. Heck, early in the season when Dallas were looking like world beaters he was called the MVP & best at his position.

Dwight's an elite defender & does indeed have an average offense, but you're right, the center position has fallen off. Any NBA fan will tell you that.

SaintBlaze

I think it's safe to assume that most people no longer have him as the best PF.

Sure, if this place was the only sports forum on the internet, you'd have a point. Too bad it's not.

You're recylcying the same arguments from before. Yes, he has improved.

If his moves were useless, he wouldn't be shooting 58% from the field.

The Magic still miantained their spot as the best defensive team in the league, even with that slight discrepency you listed.

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"]

His only stat that makes him DPOY is blocks. Nothing else. As far as being a "beast on the defensive side of the ball" basically ever offensive Center/PF goes off on him.

No_Hablo_Ingles

He won DPOTY those years because he covers for the weak perimeter defense on his team & was the leader of the BEST (statistically anyway) defense in the NBA. Without Dwight, as SVG has said plenty of times, their defense would deteriorate because he cleans up so many of their mistakes.

Yao & Gasol are the only PF/C that "go off" on Dwight, because they're ELITE on offense. For reference, Hakeem went off on Ewing & The Admiral in the playoffs. I guess both of them (Pat & D-Rob) were poor post defenders too, right? That's probably what'd you'd have people believe. :roll: People proclaim Perkins as the best post defender in the league yet Dwight's "limited" self still dropped nearly 20 & 10 on him in the playoffs, shooting 55%. Is he a bad post defender too?

No, because he has no idea how to guard a center in the post and a majority of his blocks come off blocking guards on the weak side.

No_Hablo_Ingles

Rehashing the same argument, over & over again. Orlando would be nowhere near the top 10 in defense without Dwight. Any player who has that much of an impact on one side of the ball IS NOT overrated. All the praise he gets for his defense is well deserved.

Btw, the only reference point you have of his "bad" post defense if of elite offensive bigs going off on him. How about you find me a statistic showing me exactly how well ALL opposing bigs fair against Dwight?

The Rockets were a TOP 5 GOD DAMN DEFENSE with Yao. You said it yourself, we have great perimeter defenders, and even then when Yao was out teams scored nearly 10 more points per game. The Rockets without Yao in the middle, with all those great defenders that you mentioned, are middle of the pack at best. With Yao the Rockets were a top 5 Rebounding percentage team. Without Yao the Rockets ranked outside of the top 20.

No_Hablo_Ingles

So a healthy Rockets team with Yao & a good number of perimeter defenders is a top 5 defense, yet Dwight & a group of mediocre defenders can maintain THE NUMBER ONE SPOT for two years straight?

And you want to keep calling him an overrated defender?

Lets say I did get the poll from every sports forum on the Internet and they say the same thing, couldn't you just say "Sure, if every Basketball fan were members of sports forums, you'd have a point. Too bad they don't." The point is to get a small sample size, not get the opinions of everyone. This is common among all fields that use statistics, especially in medical fields. If they say stats like "15% of men have prostate cancer" that doesn't mean they've tested all 3.6 billion or so men on earth. It means that out of the relatively small group of 10,000, 1,500 of them had prostate cancer.No_Hablo_Ingles

Oh spare me. :roll: Yes, I know how statistical studies work.

That dosn't change the fact that Gamespot's Sports forum is a joke in size & traffic compared to others. I've read & seen many forum posters & pundits proclaim Dirk as the best PF in the game, especially early in the season when his numbers were ridiculous & his team was rocking an impressive record.

I can't continue multiposting... making the quote bold is easier

"Your recycling the same garbage arguments from before. Yes, he has improved. If his moves were useless, he wouldn't be shooting 58% from the field. The Magic still miantained their spot as the best defensive team in the league, even with that slight discepncy you listed."

You are right he has improved. *Pay no attention to FG%, APG, BPG, etc.*

"He won DPOTY those years because he covers for the weak perimeter defense on his team & was the leader of the BEST (statistically anyway) defense in the NBA. Without Dwight, as SVG has said plenty of times, their defense would deteriorate because he cleans up so many of their mistakes. Yao & Gasol are the only PF/C that "go off" on Dwight, because they're ELITE on offense. For reference, Hakeem went off on Ewing & The Admiral in the playoffs. I guess both of them (Pat & D-Rob) were poor post defenders too, right? That's probably what'd you'd have people believe. People proclaim Perkins as the best post defender in the league yet Dwight's "limited" self still dropped nearly 20 & 10 on him in the playoffs, shooting 55%. Is he a bad post defender too?"

Are you forgetting about Amare and Bogut? Bogut went 31 points and 18 rebounds on him, and Amare went for 30 as well.

You comment regarding to Perkins... every dog has his day, Perkins and the Celtics made Dwight look bad in quite a few games Howard.

Game 1- 13 points, 12 rebounds on 3-10 shooting.
Game 3- 7 points, 7 rebounds, on 3-10 shooting.

"Rehashing the same argument, over & over again. Orlando would be nowhere near the top 10 in defense without Dwight. Any player who has that much of an impact on one side of the ball IS NOT overrated. All the praise he gets for his defense is well deserved"

Proof? You see, I have proof that the Rocket, who were a top Defense with Yao, wouldn't be near the top 10 without him... you on the other hand have nothing but useless assumptions with no evidence supporting your claim.

"Btw, the only reference point you have of his "bad" post defense if of elite offensive bigs going off on him. How about you find me a statistic showing me exactly how well ALL opposing bigs fair against Dwight?"

How about you watch any decent post player go off on Howard. The other thing saving Howard from showing his all too obvious weakness is that Power forwards and Centers no longer play with their back to the basket and feel more conformable All PF/C that do surpass their averages.

"So a Rockets team with Yao & a good number of perimeter defenders is a top 5 defense, yet Dwight & a group of mediocre defenders can maintain THE NUMBER ONE SPOT for two years straight? And you want to keep calling him an overrated defender?" You first have to prove that people like Nelson, Vince Carter, etc. were mediocre defenders.

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"]

Lets say I did get the poll from every sports forum on the Internet and they say the same thing, couldn't you just say "Sure, if every Basketball fan were members of sports forums, you'd have a point. Too bad they don't." The point is to get a small sample size, not get the opinions of everyone. This is common among all fields that use statistics, especially in medical fields. If they say stats like "15% of men have prostate cancer" that doesn't mean they've tested all 3.6 billion or so men on earth. It means that out of the relatively small group of 10,000, 1,500 of them had prostate cancer.SaintBlaze

Oh spare me. :roll: Yes, I know how statistical studies work.

That dosn't change the fact that Gamespot's Sports forum is a joke in size & traffic compared to others. I've read & seen many forum posters & pundits proclaim Dirk as the best PF in the game, especially early in the season when his numbers were ridiculous & his team was rocking an impressive record.

You are right he has improved. *Pay no attention to FG%, APG, BPG, etc.*

Man, you're reaching wildcat levels of obliviousness now. :lol:

So is it false that his array of moves in the post has improved?

Is it false that he's shooting jumpers from mid range (10-15 feet) at a higher precentage this season than ever before?

Is it false that his defense has imrpoved from 08? He's won two DPOTY since then. I'm not purely a stat guy but his defensive plays per game (includes blocks, steals & charges drawn) has increased since then as well.

Are you forgetting about Amare and Bogut?
Bogut went 31 points and 18 rebounds on him, and Amare went for 30 as well. You comment regarding to Perkins... every dog has his day, Perkins and the Celtics made Dwight look bad in quite a few games
Howard.
Game 1- 13 points, 12 rebounds on 3-10 shooting.
Game 3- 7 points, 7 rebounds, on 3-10 shooting.

Actually, no I'm not overlooking Amare. He's an elite offensive player. He'll get his numbers. The team as a whole shot terribly that night & were afraid to get in to the paint because of Dwight's presence.

And :lol: at you mentioning Bogut. Dwight didn't even play in that game. The next time they met (when Dwight actually played), Bogut had one of his worst games of the year.

So for Perkins, the excuse is "every dog has its day" but for Dwight, it's "he's an overrated defender." I expect no different from a Celtics homer. :lol:

Also, how do you explain Pau Gasol dropping 23, 25 & 21 on the Celtics frontline in the finals? Are they all mediocre post defenders too? No, they're not. Pau's an elite offensive player, & elite offensive players get their numbers in the NBA.

Proof?

You see, I have proof that the Rocket, who were a top Defense with Yao, wouldn't be near the top 10 without him... you on the other hand have nothing but useless assumptions with no evidence supporting your claim.

Stan Van Gundy, the goddamn coach of the Magic saying it himself isn't enough proof? Hell, just last week he said the entire team except for Dwight doesn't defend at the level they need to.

How about you watch any decent post player go off on Howard. The other thing saving Howard is that Power forwards and Centers no longer play with their back to the basket. All PF/C that do surpass their averages.

:|

The post players you mentioned (Amare, Yao, Pau) are way above "decent" on offense.

Also: I figure a stathead like yourself would find this interesting:

Adjusted Individual defensive efficiency rating

^Dwight is #1

Here's a supplementary link with explanations: Link

Pretty interesting stuff.

You first have to prove that people like Nelson, Vince Carter, etc. were mediocre defenders.

Watch the games. Players are blowing right by the Magic perimeters players all the time. Again, Stan Van Gundy said it himself, Dwight saves the perimeter guys all the ****ing time. Dwight himself complained that guys aren't doing their jobs on the perimeter.

Sure you do... A larger sample size would be nice, but 44 is not that bad at all when it comes to this topic, especially when one person is getting a majority of the votes.No_Hablo_Ingles

I honestly don't care enough to argue whatever point you're trying to make or even perform a statistical study. All I know is that, I've read & heard plenty of people proclaim Dirk as the best PF in the NBA (this season).

That's all.

[QUOTE="No_Hablo_Ingles"]Sure you do... A larger sample size would be nice, but 44 is not that bad at all when it comes to this topic, especially when one person is getting a majority of the votes.SaintBlaze

I honestly don't care enough to argue whatever point you're trying to make or even perform a statistical study. All I know is that, I've read & heard plenty of people proclaim Dirk as the best PF in the NBA (this season).

That's all.

No idea. I can't seem to find any stats regarding his "improved" jumpshot. I know I've seen him shoot from mid range quite a few times and made a few.

Dwight's accuracy from 10 feet & in improved from 44% last season to 48% this season.

His accuracy from 10-15 feet increased from 37% last season to 39% this season.

His accuracy from 16-23 feet declined from last season but these past two seasons have been his best in terms of accuracy from that distance.

link

Actually no. His BPG actually decreased. In the 2008-2009 year he average 3. In the 2009-2010 year, he average 3. This year he is averaging two. Steals are about the same, all being around 1. Charges, I have no idea...

He's second in the league in total defensive plays per game

It's decreased slighly this year but his past two seasons have been among the highest of his career.

Because he does get dominated by any center who plays with their back to the basket. Perkins on the other hand has no problem guarding those types. Perkins struggles more with the faster C's in the game that face him up.

No he doesn't. Roy Hibbert, Al Horford, Andrew Bogut, Andrew Bynum & Brook Lopez don't "dominate" Dwight at all.

Heck I'll let John Schumann (NBA.com's stat guru) explain Dwight's defensive prowess:

"For the second straight season, Howard is the anchor of the No. 1 defense in the NBA. The Magic lead the league by allowing just 99.7 points per 100 possessions. They're also the best team at defending low-post bigs, allowing just a .492 true shooting percentage from the other five big men on the list.

With Howard patrolling the middle, the Magic allow the fewest points in the paint in the league. They also rank sixth in keeping their opponents off the free-throw line. Howard is a center who has learned how best to apply his size and athleticism, making it much easier for the rest of the team to defend the perimeter. Simply, Howard is the most important defensive presence in the league."

Same as Dwight, every once is a while every dog has his day. In those same finals
Pau had a 5-11, 13 game. That 21 point game came off a 6-13 shooting night. Then Pau had a 5-12, 12 point game

He (Pau) had more good games than bad in the Finals, where the supposed "best post defender in the league" should be able to earn his keep & live up to his billing.

Umm... I asked for evidence. What you gave me is not evidence at all...

So the head coach of the Orlando Magic bemoans the porous perimter defense of his players, and that's not enough proof? Fine, check the advancted stats I linked to you then. Only one current Magic player (besides Dwight) is in the top 100 in individual defensive efficiency, and that's Ryan Anderson at the #44 spot. The closest one after him is Jameer Nelson at 128.

So the head coach of the Orlando Magic bemoans the porous perimter defense of his players, and that's not enough proof?SaintBlaze

I dont think there is any way in hell that CP3 should win MVP.. PeculatorX