Why exactly does Trump want stronger ties to Russia, but not other countries?

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Needhealing

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Poll Why exactly does Trump want stronger ties to Russia, but not other countries? (23 votes)

There's something fishy going on with Putin and Trump 61%
He wants it to be an achievement to his presidency 13%
He just admires the Russians 13%
He's just trolling with everyone 4%
I honestly have no idea 9%

This is was puzzles me. Trump seems to be indifferent toward most countries in the world, China, Mexico and even The European Union and Nato. Yet, he seems to fixated on growing stronger ties with Russia out of all thing. What benefit does Russia give to Trump unlike other countries like for example Germany?

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LJS9502_basic

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#1 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178808 Posts

Either Putin has something on him or he's invested heavily there or most likely a combination of both.

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TryIt

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#2 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

everyone knows the whole 'russian thing' is true even people on the right know it, they pretend otherwise and basically dont care but everyone knows it by now

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speedfreak48t5p

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#3 speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14411 Posts

Putin and Trump are best friends.

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mrbojangles25

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#4 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58155 Posts

Likely setting himself up for a post-presidential retirement.

Also it's a known fact that, domestically, Trump was such a bad investment for banks he could not take any loans out due to the risk factor his businesses have, so he had to barrow heavily from Russian lenders. In Russia, the government and big business are one and the same, so it's not entirely surprising that there is some collusion going on.

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horgen

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#5 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127491 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

Likely setting himself up for a post-presidential retirement.

Also it's a known fact that, domestically, Trump was such a bad investment for banks he could not take any loans out due to the risk factor his businesses have, so he had to barrow heavily from Russian lenders. In Russia, the government and big business are one and the same, so it's not entirely surprising that there is some collusion going on.

Are you saying Trump isn't a good businessman? =O

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mattbbpl

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#6 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

@horgen: The banks are.

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N64DD

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#7 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

They're a powerful country and our allies.

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horgen

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#8 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127491 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@horgen: The banks are.

Harsh. He is clearly the best. :P

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bigfootpart2

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#9 bigfootpart2
Member since 2013 • 1131 Posts

Because he's colluding with them, funded by them, and they have dirt on him they can use to blackmail him if he gets out of line. Trump is a real life Manchurian Candidate.

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lamprey263

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#10 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44503 Posts

I remember the fit people made making Obama out to be some Manchurian Candidate plant by Soviets but here is exactly that and those same people are pretending to be oblivious.

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Jacanuk

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#11 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

I know the OP is most likely a troll and on a fishing trip.

But the reason for a better relationship with Russia is probably because they are a big nuclear power and pretty much the only country that could stand a chance against the US.

And Trump also wants better ties with other countries, the key is right now looking at the almost cold war state there is with Russia.

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#12  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

Likely setting himself up for a post-presidential retirement.

Also it's a known fact that, domestically, Trump was such a bad investment for banks he could not take any loans out due to the risk factor his businesses have, so he had to barrow heavily from Russian lenders. In Russia, the government and big business are one and the same, so it's not entirely surprising that there is some collusion going on.

Please link to credible sources.

Since there has not been any proof so far, as to any Russian connections.

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TryIt

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#13 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Jacanuk said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

Likely setting himself up for a post-presidential retirement.

Also it's a known fact that, domestically, Trump was such a bad investment for banks he could not take any loans out due to the risk factor his businesses have, so he had to barrow heavily from Russian lenders. In Russia, the government and big business are one and the same, so it's not entirely surprising that there is some collusion going on.

Please link to credible sources.

Since there is not been any proof so far of any Russian connections.

naaa

nobody should bother, you will find out soon enough.

are you ready? because its coming

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DaVillain

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#14 DaVillain  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 55897 Posts

@Jacanuk said:

I know the OP is most likely a troll and on a fishing trip.

But the reason for a better relationship with Russia is probably because they are a big nuclear power and pretty much the only country that could stand a chance against the US.

And Trump also wants better ties with other countries, the key is right now looking at the almost cold war state there is with Russia.

Sounds good to me. We're cool with Russia nowadays, and giving that both Trump and Putin are like mutual business guys, keep your friends closer.

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Needhealing

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#16  Edited By Needhealing
Member since 2017 • 2041 Posts

@Jacanuk said:

I know the OP is most likely a troll and on a fishing trip.

But the reason for a better relationship with Russia is probably because they are a big nuclear power and pretty much the only country that could stand a chance against the US.

And Trump also wants better ties with other countries, the key is right now looking at the almost cold war state there is with Russia.

Love how you say OP is a troll, and the poll shows that 70% of people agree with me plus you and only 1 other person here agree with each other, the rest also agree with me. Not sure who the troll is then, or maybe you're one of the few in denial.

Also, you're whole post is inane. China is also a nuclear power and so are some of the countries in Nato, yet he isn't praising them, now is he? Also how the hell do you come to the conclusion that the only country that could stand the U.S is Russia, i mean read a book or something. China's military and nuclear arsenal spits on Russia.

And in terms of better ties with other countries, why then is he trying to start a trade war against China and most of the European union? I mean this is the first time in decades that Germany is threatining the u.s with a trade war of their own.

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TryIt

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#17 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@needhealing said:
@Jacanuk said:

I know the OP is most likely a troll and on a fishing trip.

But the reason for a better relationship with Russia is probably because they are a big nuclear power and pretty much the only country that could stand a chance against the US.

And Trump also wants better ties with other countries, the key is right now looking at the almost cold war state there is with Russia.

Love how you say OP is a troll, and the poll shows that 70% of people agree with me plus you and only 1 other person here agree with each other, the rest also agree with me. Not sure who the troll is then, or maybe you're one of the few in denial.

they will just move the goal post and then forget about it in a few days once the convictions are in.

just like Iraq war went from 'yah hu there are WMDs there!' to'yeah we knew it was about oil the whole time'

just like global warming went from 'total lie' to 'it exists but its natural'

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Needhealing

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#18 Needhealing
Member since 2017 • 2041 Posts

@tryit said:
@needhealing said:
@Jacanuk said:

I know the OP is most likely a troll and on a fishing trip.

But the reason for a better relationship with Russia is probably because they are a big nuclear power and pretty much the only country that could stand a chance against the US.

And Trump also wants better ties with other countries, the key is right now looking at the almost cold war state there is with Russia.

Love how you say OP is a troll, and the poll shows that 70% of people agree with me plus you and only 1 other person here agree with each other, the rest also agree with me. Not sure who the troll is then, or maybe you're one of the few in denial.

they will just move the goal post and then forget about it in a few days once the convictions are in.

just like Iraq war went from 'yah hu there are WMDs there!' to'yeah we knew it was about oil the whole time'

just like global warming went from 'total lie' to 'it exists but its natural'

LOL i expanded my post, but yeah I mean i'm not saying he's colluding since i would rather get proof first. I haven't seen solid proof. The question is just simple, his love for Russia makes no sense for me.

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TryIt

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#19  Edited By TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@needhealing said:
@tryit said:
@needhealing said:
@Jacanuk said:

I know the OP is most likely a troll and on a fishing trip.

But the reason for a better relationship with Russia is probably because they are a big nuclear power and pretty much the only country that could stand a chance against the US.

And Trump also wants better ties with other countries, the key is right now looking at the almost cold war state there is with Russia.

Love how you say OP is a troll, and the poll shows that 70% of people agree with me plus you and only 1 other person here agree with each other, the rest also agree with me. Not sure who the troll is then, or maybe you're one of the few in denial.

they will just move the goal post and then forget about it in a few days once the convictions are in.

just like Iraq war went from 'yah hu there are WMDs there!' to'yeah we knew it was about oil the whole time'

just like global warming went from 'total lie' to 'it exists but its natural'

LOL i expanded my post, but yeah I mean i'm not saying he's colluding since i would rather get proof first. I haven't seen solid proof. The question is just simple, his love for Russia makes no sense for me.

is love for Russia makes no sense for me.

then you dont know the facts that currently are unknown.

its almost impossible to be more obvious if you know the current known

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#20 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3700 Posts

Pretty sure we're tighter with Israel and Poland than we have been in a long time.

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theone86

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#21 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

I'm not trying to dismiss the collusion angle because I do think something is there, but I think it goes deeper than that. I think that Trump and Putin (and at this point, Putin is Russia) just share an ideological makeup. They're both authoritarian-minded law and order types who have no qualms about using government to enrich and empower those in their inner circle. They both see a diminished U.S. presence on the world stage as a good thing, they're both wary of if not outright hostile to increased diversity, they both see cultural hegemony as a pivotal issue, and they both see the rise of Islamic culture as a threat. Furthermore, Trump is EXTREMELY gullible, EXTREMELY susceptible to manipulation by people he perceives to be similar to him (read:Putin), and Putin is a master manipulator. I have no doubt that a few minutes in conversation with Putin is enough for him to be swayed on most issues.

@vl4d_l3nin said:

Pretty sure we're tighter with Israel and Poland than we have been in a long time.

Yup, we're running the crony authoritarian state table!

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#22 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@theone86: both are far from authoritarian

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#23 ChrisChronos
Member since 2017 • 180 Posts

Cause maybe, just maybe he's the only one that actually gets it and knows war with Russia is not going to solve anything.

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#24  Edited By Gaming-Planet
Member since 2008 • 21064 Posts

Trump has fallen for the Russian propaganda.

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#25 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

@themajormayor: I can't tell if you're referring to Trump and Putin or Poland and Israel, but either way I'm LOLing. If you look up authoritarian in the dictionary, you'd get a picture of all four.

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#26 KittenNose
Member since 2014 • 2470 Posts
@theone86 said:

@themajormayor: I can't tell if you're referring to Trump and Putin or Poland and Israel, but either way I'm LOLing. If you look up authoritarian in the dictionary, you'd get a picture of all four.

In what way do you think trump has restricted personal freedoms more then Obama, Bush, or Clinton?

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deactivated-5e9044657a310

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#27 deactivated-5e9044657a310
Member since 2005 • 8136 Posts

What little wealth he actually has is tied up in Deutsche Bank and Russian Bonds.

He owes them massive amounts of money.

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#28 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

Well, most likely Russia has something on him. Either that or he has very heavy business dealings with them that he doesnt want to jeopardize. But he definitely acts very different around them.

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#29 Needhealing
Member since 2017 • 2041 Posts

@chrischronos said:

Cause maybe, just maybe he's the only one that actually gets it and knows war with Russia is not going to solve anything.

Exactly how was the U.S going to war with Russia before Trump? My god, conservatives are so mind boggling.

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#30 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@needhealing said:
@chrischronos said:

Cause maybe, just maybe he's the only one that actually gets it and knows war with Russia is not going to solve anything.

Exactly how was the U.S going to war with Russia before Trump? My god, conservatives are so mind boggling.

Syria conflict, and the invasion of the Ukraine put us in a odd situations.

Learn history brah.

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#31  Edited By Gaming-Planet
Member since 2008 • 21064 Posts
@needhealing said:
@chrischronos said:

Cause maybe, just maybe he's the only one that actually gets it and knows war with Russia is not going to solve anything.

Exactly how was the U.S going to war with Russia before Trump? My god, conservatives are so mind boggling.

Proxy war in Syria.

Crimea

Ukraine

NATO and US troops all over the Baltics.

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#32 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@theone86: I'm talking about Poland and Israel. Both are true elective democracies with comparatively high degrees of freedom. Putin and Trump would maybe show up in the dictionary. But Poland and Israel would be antonyms.

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#33 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

@themajormayor said:

@theone86: I'm talking about Poland and Israel. Both are true elective democracies with comparatively high degrees of freedom. Putin and Trump would maybe show up in the dictionary. But Poland and Israel would be antonyms.

Uh, for one being a democracy does not preclude a state from being authoritarian. The U.S. was a democracy since its founding and it still enslaved human beings based on the color of their skin. Two, both Poland and Israel have heavy-handed laws that run against democratic ideals. Poland just passed a law that criminalized speech based on its political content, and they recently put the courts under the direct control of the current ruling party. If you look up authoritarianism in the dictionary, those acts would be right there. Israel uses collective punishment against families and friends of SUSPECTED criminals and pushes an official government narrative of an inability of different ethnicities to coexist. Oh, but the best part is that Israel thinks it can still bill itself as a democracy because they simply suspend the rights of the individuals they target. Again, textbook authoritarianism. If you think Poland and Israel are bastions of democracy then your view of democracy is twisted.

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#34 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@theone86: When did I say they are bastions of democracies? They certainly are not. But they both certainly are true elective democracies with comparatively high degrees of freedom.

Singular acts presented separate from the context of the whole political system, with your own twist to it, does not make a country authoritarian.

Freedom of political choice and participation, freedom of speech and press, freedom of religion etc. That's all textbook liberalism.

The point is that if you think Poland and Israel belongs on the authoritan state table, then, for that to be true, it has to be a very big table with around 150 countries on it.

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#35  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@horgen: The banks are.

Well, clearly he is still good enough to earn more than you will make in 100 lifetimes.

You may dislike him, but somehow he manages to keep a pretty decent sum of cash and keep his business empire afloat.

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#36 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127491 Posts

@themajormayor said:

@theone86: When did I say they are bastions of democracies? They certainly are not. But they both certainly are true elective democracies with comparatively high degrees of freedom.

Singular acts presented separate from the context of the whole political system, with your own twist to it, does not make a country authoritarian.

Freedom of political choice and participation, freedom of speech and press, freedom of religion etc. That's all textbook liberalism.

The point is that if you think Poland and Israel belongs on the authoritan state table, then, for that to be true, it has to be a very big table with around 150 countries on it.

Poland is a flawed democracy. Some of their latest moves certainly aren't helping. Poland is trying to cleanse their history. Write an article about Polish people working for the Germans during Holocaust and you can be jailed for it these days. Best of all, I believe lots of Polish people support this law. They were taught until the fall of the Soviet Union that they only helped Jews during WWII.

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#37 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@horgen: Yes and USA is also a flawed democracy according to the same ranking.

Poland has authoritarian elements, one you just mentioned, but so do all countries. Some less than Poland but most countries have much more.

To be considered an authoritarian regime according to that index you need a score below 4/10. Poland has 6.7. Median score is 5.7. Hence why I say Poland is far from being authoritarian. Comparatively.

Israel is an even clearer case with a score of 7.8. That ranks it 31 out of 167 countries.

If Israel or Poland is too authoritarian for someone to not want to be tight with them. Then that would exclude the vast majority of countries (136 out of 167 excluded).

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#38  Edited By Needhealing
Member since 2017 • 2041 Posts

@Gaming-Planet said:
@needhealing said:
@chrischronos said:

Cause maybe, just maybe he's the only one that actually gets it and knows war with Russia is not going to solve anything.

Exactly how was the U.S going to war with Russia before Trump? My god, conservatives are so mind boggling.

Proxy war in Syria.

Crimea

Ukraine

NATO and US troops all over the Baltics.

This is just stupid. The U.S went to war with Russia for Crimea and Ukraine?

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N64DD

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#39 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@needhealing said:
@Gaming-Planet said:
@needhealing said:
@chrischronos said:

Cause maybe, just maybe he's the only one that actually gets it and knows war with Russia is not going to solve anything.

Exactly how was the U.S going to war with Russia before Trump? My god, conservatives are so mind boggling.

Proxy war in Syria.

Crimea

Ukraine

NATO and US troops all over the Baltics.

This is just stupid. The U.S went to war with Russia for Crimea and Ukraine?

Almost. That's what you asked.

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#40 Firosen
Member since 2004 • 560 Posts

@undefined: In all likelihood, the allegations of a Trump-Putin conspiracy are hugely overblown. Trump probably wanted to build a hotel in Moscow and use the presidential nomination (expecting to lose) to further his brand to that end. Steve Bannon got involved, used his political weaponry to help Trump along, and probably got in way too deep when people around him started accepting Russian "dirt," having to build elaborate coverups for what likely would have been a slap on the wrist had Canditate Trump just been forthcoming about his electoral transgressions from the start.

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#41 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Firosen said:

@undefined: In all likelihood, the allegations of a Trump-Putin conspiracy are hugely overblown. Trump probably wanted to build a hotel in Moscow and use the presidential nomination (expecting to lose) to further his brand to that end. Steve Bannon got involved, used his political weaponry to help Trump along, and probably got in way too deep when people around him started accepting Russian "dirt," having to build elaborate coverups for what likely would have been a slap on the wrist had Canditate Trump just been forthcoming about his electoral transgressions from the start.

what is actually known right now as facts (which does require being detailed knowledge on this story) is much deeper then you suggest.

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#43 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@joebones5000 said:

Looks like rick Gates was talking to known Russian spy, Konstantin Kilimnik.

Remember when Trump told us that no one in his campaign ever had contact with Russians?

You people are so paranoid it's unbelievable.

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#44 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

@themajormayor said:

@theone86: When did I say they are bastions of democracies? They certainly are not. But they both certainly are true elective democracies with comparatively high degrees of freedom.

Singular acts presented separate from the context of the whole political system, with your own twist to it, does not make a country authoritarian.

Freedom of political choice and participation, freedom of speech and press, freedom of religion etc. That's all textbook liberalism.

The point is that if you think Poland and Israel belongs on the authoritan state table, then, for that to be true, it has to be a very big table with around 150 countries on it.

You don't understand liberalism. Independence of the judiciary is a pillar of liberalism, it prevents authoritarian behavior like using the courts to enforce an ideological agenda. Removing the independence of the judiciary is completely illiberal, which is exactly what Poland did. They know this, their ruling party has been going around touting the supposed benefits of illiberalism. Perhaps you didn't get the memo?

And singular acts do, in fact, make a country authoritarian. If they, for instance, have a fairly liberal democracy but strip citizens of the rights guaranteed by that democracy a la Israel, then they're undermining their own claim to democracy. That is an authoritarian action undertaken by the state on a regular basis as a matter of official policy, ergo it is an authoritarian state. Sure, other countries can be more authoritarian, but it is still authoritarian. It is giving the government unilateral power to enforce policy specifically prohibited by democratic norms, that is textbook authoritarianism.

And just a note, authoritarian is not the same thing as a dictatorship. You can be democratic and authoritarian at the same time. The fact that you can't make the distinction shows me exactly why your perspective on this issue is so skewed.

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#45 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@n64dd said:
@joebones5000 said:

Looks like rick Gates was talking to known Russian spy, Konstantin Kilimnik.

Remember when Trump told us that no one in his campaign ever had contact with Russians?

You people are so paranoid it's unbelievable.

not sure I follow.

its a fact that Rick Gates was talking to a known Russian Spy.

its not speculation, its factual

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Firosen

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#46 Firosen
Member since 2004 • 560 Posts

@tryit: Got a reputable, non-partisan source?

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TryIt

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#47  Edited By TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

@Firosen said:

@tryit: Got a reputable, non-partisan source?

you want a source that shows it is known that Rick Gates was talking to a known Russian Spy named Konstantin Kilimnik?

ok coming up stay tuned

for starters:

Washington Post

New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/28/us/politics/rick-gates-trump-campaign-russian-intelligence.html

Chicago Trubune

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-manafort-associate-russia-ties-20180328-story.html

The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/28/manafort-russia-ties-mueller-trump-investigation-reveals

Bloomberg

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-28/mueller-draws-line-to-russian-spy-s-work-with-manafort-and-gates

the Hill

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/380606-mueller-team-reveals-manafort-business-associates-connection-to

also found in:

Duluth News Tribune

Web India

Toronto Star

(I removed Wikipedia I had the wrong one)

the core source itself comes from legal findings by the special council and trust me they do not write those things without making damn sure its true.

its worth noting that the Russian investigation thus far has 19 indictments, and 3 guilty pleas. fair to say it has legs

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themajormayor

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#48 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@theone86 said:
@themajormayor said:

@theone86: When did I say they are bastions of democracies? They certainly are not. But they both certainly are true elective democracies with comparatively high degrees of freedom.

Singular acts presented separate from the context of the whole political system, with your own twist to it, does not make a country authoritarian.

Freedom of political choice and participation, freedom of speech and press, freedom of religion etc. That's all textbook liberalism.

The point is that if you think Poland and Israel belongs on the authoritan state table, then, for that to be true, it has to be a very big table with around 150 countries on it.

You don't understand liberalism. Independence of the judiciary is a pillar of liberalism, it prevents authoritarian behavior like using the courts to enforce an ideological agenda. Removing the independence of the judiciary is completely illiberal, which is exactly what Poland did. They know this, their ruling party has been going around touting the supposed benefits of illiberalism. Perhaps you didn't get the memo?

And singular acts do, in fact, make a country authoritarian. If they, for instance, have a fairly liberal democracy but strip citizens of the rights guaranteed by that democracy a la Israel, then they're undermining their own claim to democracy. That is an authoritarian action undertaken by the state on a regular basis as a matter of official policy, ergo it is an authoritarian state. Sure, other countries can be more authoritarian, but it is still authoritarian. It is giving the government unilateral power to enforce policy specifically prohibited by democratic norms, that is textbook authoritarianism.

And just a note, authoritarian is not the same thing as a dictatorship. You can be democratic and authoritarian at the same time. The fact that you can't make the distinction shows me exactly why your perspective on this issue is so skewed.

In what way do you think Poland has removed the independence of the judiciary?

What rights, garantued by the state, does Israel, on a regular basis, strip its citizens?

Regardless of the basis for those statements, all countries have some degree of authoritarian elements. There is no clear cut-off point that I know of that separates definetely authoritarian countries from definitely not authoritarian countries. Poland and Israel are definitely way less authoritarian than the average country. Which is why my point really is, if they belong at the authoritarian state table, then it has to be a very big table with 100-150 countries, if not more. And if USA want to run a table without authoritarian states, it would consist of a few states, maybe without USA on it. Depending on the cut-off point.

I never said, nor did I think, that authoritarian is the same thing as dictatorship. There is some overlap though.

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#49 theone86
Member since 2003 • 22669 Posts

@themajormayor said:
@theone86 said:
@themajormayor said:

@theone86: When did I say they are bastions of democracies? They certainly are not. But they both certainly are true elective democracies with comparatively high degrees of freedom.

Singular acts presented separate from the context of the whole political system, with your own twist to it, does not make a country authoritarian.

Freedom of political choice and participation, freedom of speech and press, freedom of religion etc. That's all textbook liberalism.

The point is that if you think Poland and Israel belongs on the authoritan state table, then, for that to be true, it has to be a very big table with around 150 countries on it.

You don't understand liberalism. Independence of the judiciary is a pillar of liberalism, it prevents authoritarian behavior like using the courts to enforce an ideological agenda. Removing the independence of the judiciary is completely illiberal, which is exactly what Poland did. They know this, their ruling party has been going around touting the supposed benefits of illiberalism. Perhaps you didn't get the memo?

And singular acts do, in fact, make a country authoritarian. If they, for instance, have a fairly liberal democracy but strip citizens of the rights guaranteed by that democracy a la Israel, then they're undermining their own claim to democracy. That is an authoritarian action undertaken by the state on a regular basis as a matter of official policy, ergo it is an authoritarian state. Sure, other countries can be more authoritarian, but it is still authoritarian. It is giving the government unilateral power to enforce policy specifically prohibited by democratic norms, that is textbook authoritarianism.

And just a note, authoritarian is not the same thing as a dictatorship. You can be democratic and authoritarian at the same time. The fact that you can't make the distinction shows me exactly why your perspective on this issue is so skewed.

In what way do you think Poland has removed the independence of the judiciary?

What rights, garantued by the state, does Israel, on a regular basis, strip its citizens?

Regardless of the basis for those statements, all countries have some degree of authoritarian elements. There is no clear cut-off point that I know of that separates definetely authoritarian countries from definitely not authoritarian countries. Poland and Israel are definitely way less authoritarian than the average country. Which is why my point really is, if they belong at the authoritarian state table, then it has to be a very big table with 100-150 countries, if not more. And if USA want to run a table without authoritarian states, it would consist of a few states, maybe without USA on it. Depending on the cut-off point.

I never said, nor did I think, that authoritarian is the same thing as dictatorship. There is some overlap though.

deflections, whatboutism, can you please make a non-fallacious argument? And no, the point absolutely is not that the table has to be big, the point is that Trump likes Poland and Israel because they're authoritarian and jingoistic. That was the exact point I made, and you brought up all the other countries to deflect from that.

Tell me, when exactly did conservatives start becoming so obsessed with what other people were doing? It's like, these days, every time someone calls a conservative on doing something they shouldn't their reply is "b-b-b-b-but, they're doing it too!" Does that sound like the sort of response you'd get from someone who takes personal responsibility, like conservatives constantly claim they do? No, it's the sort of response you'd get from a petulant five year old. And it kind of proves my point, as if these countries weren't authoritarian your response would be "they aren't authoritarian because of x,y, and z," rather than "they're not authoritarian because other countries are more authoritarian." So thank you for proving my point for me.

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themajormayor

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#50 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@theone86: So how are they authoritarian exactly? You haven't been able to demonstrate it in any way. How have Poland completely removed the independence of the judiciary? What rights does Israel strip of its citizens on a regular basis?

It's not a deflection. It's completely valid to compare with other countries. If the only factor is authoritarianism then clearly Trump should be much tighter with over 150 countries than two flawed but liberal democracies. Yet, as far as I know, he isn't.

I already told you all countries have authoritarian elements to some extent. It only makes sense to call a country authoritarian in a relative sense. Or call all countries authoritarian.

I'm not conservative in any way and that is not how proof works.