Who will blink first - Democrats or Trump (government shutdown)?

@sn0man: can you? You’re making the claim, or backing someone who has made it. An assertion has to be supported. It’s not my job to disprove something that hasn’t been proven. Trump pulled it right out of his ass, as he does everything else, and you guys mindlessly eat it up. It’s remarkable.

So, let’s see if you can.

Border walls are different from structural walls.

When it comes to structures, there arent many feasible ways to enter.

With border walls, well there are multiple ways to get into the US

• Fly in
• Tunnelling underground
• Waters
• Coming in as a tourist, and illegally staying in the country
• Climbing

@MirkoS77: so what you're saying is - you can't. You're just doing precisely what you're accusing me of. Pathetic.

At least I understand the truth about immigration and aren't kneeling in front of trump believes the myriad lies. So that makes me the one that isn't stupid kid.

Citation on who is a communist.

Citation on which party wants open borders, and how many percent of said party wants this.

Polling is not going in his favor. Approval rating is dropping, and most Americans don't want the wall or his shutdown for it.

Which is why he's going to hold a lie filled clown-show tonight. But it seems Americans have caught on to the fact that he lies so often (like those 4,000 terrorists),

The majority of Americans are against Trump on the wall and the shutdown

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/08/politics/polls-trump-shutdown-wall/index.html

And that would be a red-herring. Americans overall want more border security, just not a wall. Facts are facts.

This is incorrect. Approval/Disapproval polls for the last 2 years are mostly all bad for Trump, and this isn't just liberal polling. He had the lowest first year average in history. Not sure about second year, but it's down there.

The Democrats alone are not resisting Trump on this issue. Most Americans do not want a wall. Most Americans do not favor a shut down to get a wall.

The shutdown hurts the left and, if the national emergency schtick doesn't fly then the left will eventually force the Democrats to cave - it's their base after all that relies heavily on government, for their job, their food stamp, their rent etc.

https://www.hungerfreeamerica.org/blog/trump-voting-states-most-utilize-snap-food-stamps

TRUMP-VOTING STATES MOST UTILIZE SNAP (FOOD STAMPS)

https://apnews.com/2f83c72de1bd440d92cdbc0d3b6bc08c

AP FACT CHECK: Blue high-tax states fund red low-tax states

@sn0man said:

Remember, regardless of what the talking heads on the legacy media networks tell you, this is his "base";

A lot of those red areas have low population density.

Overall only 26% of Americans are Republicans.

There is always a way, but the more difficult the less people will try. as for Obama's wall there was only one mistake made, an opening was put in it, so he can get out.

He was elected by a minority of the population. Now that he is president he serves the entire country. Not his base. If he cannot understand that then the presidency is not for him.

The people most affected are probably republicans since social programs are in danger. The red states are the states MOST dependent on social programs.

Also the money for the wall is a huge cost to the American people and at a time when we decreased revenue and have increased expenses. Two very very stupid things to do at the same time. Thanks donnie.

Illegal immigration and drug smuggling are not happening because we don't have a wall. Both use LEGAL means to enter the country for the majority of the time. A wall does nothing.

Throwing the word commie around is just childish.

No one wants open borders. That's a lie spread by republicans.

Happy now?

@zaryia said:

@sn0man said:

The commies are against border security and think anyone should just be able to waltz in and get free rent and a welfare cheque.

Citation on who is a communist.

Citation on which party wants open borders, and how many percent of said party wants this.

@sn0man said:

There is simply no incentive for him to cave on this.

Polling is not going in his favor. Approval rating is dropping, and most Americans don't want the wall or his shutdown for it.

Which is why he's going to hold a lie filled clown-show tonight. But it seems Americans have caught on to the fact that he lies so often (like those 4,000 terrorists),

The majority of Americans are against Trump on the wall and the shutdown

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/08/politics/polls-trump-shutdown-wall/index.html

@sn0man said:

@mandzilla said:

Majority of American don't want a wall, and the Democrats in part won back the house on the basis of opposing this.

I would argue the majority of Americans want border security - even if that doesn't ultimately come in the form of a physical wall.

And that would be a red-herring. Americans overall want more border security, just not a wall. Facts are facts.

@sn0man said:

People like to quote approval/disapproval polls but they aren't much of an indicator of anything other than what side of the bed a small, mainly liberally biased sample of people happened to wake up on that day.

This is incorrect. Approval/Disapproval polls for the last 2 years are mostly all bad for Trump, and this isn't just liberal polling. He had the lowest first year average in history. Not sure about second year, but it's down there.

@sn0man said:

Again there is no incentive for Trump to cave on this. The Democrats had their opportunity when the President was willing to work with them but they blew it - they're more interested in "resisting Trump" than governing responsibly, rationally, or with a modicum of sanity.

The Democrats alone are not resisting Trump on this issue. Most Americans do not want a wall. Most Americans do not favor a shut down to get a wall.

The shutdown hurts the left and, if the national emergency schtick doesn't fly then the left will eventually force the Democrats to cave - it's their base after all that relies heavily on government, for their job, their food stamp, their rent etc.

https://www.hungerfreeamerica.org/blog/trump-voting-states-most-utilize-snap-food-stamps

TRUMP-VOTING STATES MOST UTILIZE SNAP (FOOD STAMPS)

https://apnews.com/2f83c72de1bd440d92cdbc0d3b6bc08c

AP FACT CHECK: Blue high-tax states fund red low-tax states

@sn0man said:

Remember, regardless of what the talking heads on the legacy media networks tell you, this is his "base";

A lot of those red areas have low population density.

Overall only 26% of Americans are Republicans.

Damn this post is burn. I love it when Trump supporters get fact checked in order to disprove their constant lies.

The Democrats don't want open borders. Their actions certainly don't reflect that opinion.

@blackballs: Zaryia loves to misrepresent facts. But no surprise you believe whatever fits your false assumptions.

Like for example that California is the poorest state and also the biggest receiver of Federal grants

And most blue states actually receive a lot more federal grants than any "red" state.

Funny coming from a Trump supporter.

They don't..........and they don't. But please continue listening to far right talking heads. It really educates you on facts. /sarcasm.

The only pathetic thing here is the one that initially makes an assertion they can't back and then demands someone to disprove it. Again, you make the claim. The onus is on you to prove it.

Otherwise, continue to live by the words of a conman.

@JimB: The Democrats refuse to take any action on border control. That is as good as supporting an open borders policy.

"The Democrats have demonstrated that there are no means to achieve the goal of controlled immigration that they are willing to support — not border control to keep unauthorized people from barging in, and not deportation of those who manage to get past the notional borders. For a pedant, that may not qualify as “open borders,” in the sense that national frontiers would be completely unmonitored, merely jurisdictional markers showing who picks up the garbage on which side of the line."

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/yes-the-democrats-are-for-open-borders/

Illegal immigration is up under trump. A republican. Obama, a democrat, deported a high number of illegals. Facts.

Facts just don't matter anymore.

@LJS9502_basic: perplexing response from a leftist. Democrats deny that their hero Obama deported illegal immigrants, or try to portray Democrats as the champion of illegals. But if they are champions of illegal immigrants, why would they deport them - least of all be boastful of the high number of illegals they deported? And if illegal immigration is up, then all the more reason for border control. But if you're against border control then you support open borders. But you claim not to support open borders. Leftist logic is truly confounding.

LOL it's pointless talking with you. You have zero education on the subject of illegal immigration and display it over and over again.

Democrats do not push for open borders. Get off faux news and donnie's tweets.

Perhaps not the Democrat Party itself - at least not outwardly - yet. But their supporters do - outwardly, loudly, and persistently.

The Republican position on immigration is coherent, but racist. The Democrats should reject the bill and argue for the politically popular, economically sound, and morally right position: open borders.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/16/democrats-immigration-policy-open-borders-dreamers

Trump’s Opponents Aren’t Arguing for “Open Borders”—But Maybe They Should

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-opponents-arent-arguing-for-open-bordersbut-maybe-they-should

A New York Times fact-check argues that “no, Democrats do not want ‘open borders.’” But it immediately and spectacularly falls flat because it fails to account for the unprecedented shift in liberal rhetoric and ignores the unmistakable new guard emerging on the Left.

“We’ve arrived,” Tobin argues, “at a point when the law and policy arguments about how best to enforce it have become irrelevant.” When ICE agents are refashioned as fascists and illegal aliens become default martyrs then “there is no more middle ground.”

The policy of Ocasio-Cortez and the growing number who agree with her is one where enforcement of White House policy makes ICE agents not just cruel but actually inhumane. Her solution requires a completely new agency and a completely new vision of the border where border patrol become travel agents instead of law enforcement. They won’t deter anyone entering illegally. Instead they will offer “safe passage.”

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-new-guard-of-the-democratic-party-absolutely-supports-open-borders

"It was a generally unedifying exchange between politicians who lacked wit, deftness and eloquence but were adept at posturing for their bases. Unedifying except in one sense: Democrats showed once again that they lack a border security policy — seem even reluctant to talk about the subject in any detail."

[snip]

But not all walls are dumb, especially in the right place such as urban areas and in combination with other effective measures. Walls, technological upgrades and additional personnel put in place in San Diego, long before Trump was elected, reduced apprehensions of illegal immigrants from half a million a quarter century ago to 32,000 in 2016.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/421165-anti-wall-just-isnt-enough-how-democrats-can-sell-an-immigration-plan

You're dealing with JimB and an alt troll. Facts were never part of their plan.

@sn0man: Oh boy a bunch of opinion pieces and links with seem to argue against your stance. Congrats on self ownage.

So you're an idiot and you can't read. Noted.

I think that fits you more since you put links that say the opposite of what you stated. But I don't expect you to understand that.

I don't expect you to understand much of anything at all. I'd tell you again to go play with crayons but now i'm not sure you're qualified to operate them.

You linked 4 op-eds.

Most Democrats are not for open borders. This is a fact and it isn't really up for debate.

What's your point, genius? I said Democrats (supporters of the Democrat party, including certain members of the party itself) are in favor of open borders. Opinions on the matter, particularly opinions from democrat columnists read primarily by democrat party supporters, are entirely relevant.

Forget the wall already, it's time for the U.S. to have open borders

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/07/31/open-borders-help-economy-combat-illegal-immigration-column/862185002/

The new guard of the Democratic Party absolutely supports open borders

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/the-new-guard-of-the-democratic-party-absolutely-supports-open-borders

Encouraging broad brush strokes is a dangerous strategy from the favorite party of white nationalists.

Cool argument bro.

AKA "quick, we're losing, so lets start calling everybody who disagrees with us a Nazi until we've changed the subject!!"

I don't like generalizing. It's disingenuous and leads to false conclusions.

Don't you agree?

Not exactly true.

He had the most removal orders made, but relatively few returns and border apprehension. Meaning we allowed a ton of people in at the border, only to deport some of them later.

It isn't generalizing when a significant portion of the left support open borders.

And let's not mince words here - if you're against border security then you're for open borders. If you won't take a position on border security then you are for open borders.

Illegal Immigration: We've been seeing a lot of articles these days defending Democrats against charges that they are for open borders. But recent events show that the party has, in fact, morphed into one that reflexively opposes virtually any attempt to secure the southern border.

For years, Democrats tried to portray themselves as tough on border security, even as they argued for amnesty for all illegal immigrants currently in the country. Sometimes they slipped, as Hillary Clinton did when, in a paid speech in 2013, she talked about her dream of open borders. (She quickly tried to explain away her comment, once it surfaced, as having to do with energy.)

But several events over the past few days have blown the party's cover on illegal immigration.

On Wednesday, the House voted on a bill that simply expressed Congress' "continued support for all United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers and personnel who carry out the important mission of ICE" and "the efforts of all Federal agencies, State law enforcement, and military personnel who bring law and order to our Nation's borders."

Such nonbinding resolutions don't have the force of law. They're just a statement.

Just 18 Democrats voted for this resolution. Thirty-five voted no. And the other 133 dodged the issue altogether by voting "present." Democrats complained that the vote was just a political stunt.

[snip]

Democrats want to neuter the one agency responsible for enforcing border security. They want to make it easy for illegals who cross to stay in the country. And they want to give them the right to vote.

Leading Democrats also adamantly oppose building a secure border wall. They support "sanctuary cities" that actively protect illegals from deportation. And they want to grant every illegal in the country amnesty.

And we're supposed to believe that Democrats aren't for open borders simply because they say so?

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/illegal-immigration-democrats-open-borders/

What percent of Democrats are objectively for open borders?

Citation is needed.

Please show this statistic. The opinion piece you gave does not display such a stat.

As we currently know it from hard facts, what you said is false:

Thirty Democrats in the House have sponsored a bipartisan immigration bill this year that gives the young undocumented immigrants known as Dreamers a pathway to citizenship. It also enhances technology used to monitor the border, and provides $110 million in grants annually for collaboration between local law enforcement and Border Patrol agents.

All 193 Democrats in the House and 23 moderate Republicans have signed a “discharge” petition to force a vote on that bill and other immigration proposals.

And all but three Democrats voted for yet another bipartisan proposal to provide a pathway to citizenship to Dreamers, authorize $25 billion to build barriers and hire personnel at the border over the next decade. It would also prohibit green-card holders from sponsoring adult children.

Opinion pieces are NOT facts. You have ZERO facts. Trolling much>

@mattbbpl: Maybe listening to their own voters who also want border security. Maybe not a wall per-sey, but they are for strengthening border security.

The more Democrats play politics and refuse to budge on issues their own voters want, the more irrelevant they become.

Facts, you never look at all the facts only a small percentage that fit your narrative. Try looking at all the facts for a change, but that is asking too much from you.

@HoolaHoopMan: I'm convinced that the political forum regular posters are really only about three or four individuals who all have 5-6 different Alts.

Illegal immigration is up because of the economy. When Obama was president illegals were leaving the country. If you count the people stopped at the legal border crossings a deportations as Obama did his numbers are greater. He certainly did not go after MS-13 gang members.

https://democrats.org/issues/immigration-reform/

Read that position, and look at the heart-string tugging video of the illegal "child". It's basically, let em all in, and get the criminals later...maybe. And that's reflected in the statistics I posted earlier. Stopping people at the border had dropped drastically under Obama, much more than the drop in illegal crossings.

And I love how they say that Obama did wonders for immigration, then in the next paragraph admit that it's broken. Everything said after that is a lie. The majority of deportees are noncriminal, and family separation was a court ruling from the most left wing court in the country.

Could someone clarify for me. It seems impossible for right wingers to let the dreamers stay yet increase border security. Is this true?

That doesn't say they are for open borders.

I need a percent, with facts.

Where's that 211 trillion debt Jim? Show us the facts!

I have shown the facts several time. If you want them look them up like I did.

I haven't seen it. Let's see those links...........

California just pushed a bill that puts illegal aliens on health insurance, man california loves them some illegals and sanctuary cities, they sure do love paying for them

If there is no deal tomorrow, this will be the longest shut down in US history, won't it?

Yeah, if it's shutdown come saturday it will be the longest

Now the longest shutdown in US history?