Trump is raising your taxes today

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mattbbpl

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#1 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17534 Posts

Reminder: Trump is raising your taxes today

A new tariff of 15% will be added to the cost of more than 40% of all consumer products imported from China on Sept. 1. That amounts to about $109 billion worth of annual imports, according to research firm Panjiva. On Dec.15, the 15% tariff will be assessed on another $155 billion worth of consumer goods from China. At that point, there will be new Trump tariffs on virtually everything imported from China.

The Sept. 1 tariffs would take about $16 billion out of Americans’ pockets over the course of a year, if Chinese import levels remain the same. Add in the Dec. 15 tariffs and the cost of the tax would rise to $40 billion. That’s not a huge hit in a $21 trillion economy, but it does add up. JPMorgan Chase estimates the tariffs already in place and scheduled to go into effect will cost the typical American household more than $1,000 per year.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-tariffs-china-september-1-040027636.html

This is a tax hike that will hit the poor and middle class a lot more than job creators though, so it's ok.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#2 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45394 Posts

The inevitable increase of prices for goods to offset tariffs is not the same as a tax increase on the American public.

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mattbbpl

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#3 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17534 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer: How is the government charging money for purchasing goods not a tax?

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rmpumper

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#4 rmpumper
Member since 2016 • 704 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

The inevitable increase of prices for goods to offset tariffs is not the same as a tax increase on the American public.

In both cases the people are paying for it and the government is the one pocketing the money. So what is the difference?

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ComeOnMan

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#5 ComeOnMan
Member since 2017 • 247 Posts

Your "taxes" are only going to be raised if you choose to purchase the goods having tariffs placed on them.

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sealionact

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#6 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 4231 Posts

This isn't "raising your taxes".

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#7  Edited By Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45394 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@Stevo_the_gamer: How is the government charging money for purchasing goods not a tax?

Think of it like the government charging companies for their "carbon" output. That eventually bleeds down to the consumer, but it's not a "tax" on the consumer.

-

@rmpumper, Consumer choice.

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mattbbpl

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#8 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17534 Posts

After decades of hearing that tariffs are taxes from the Republican politicians and right wing activists such as Grover Norquist, I'm glad to hear that I've been turned around on the subject all this time.

Carry on, Trump! You've been given the blessing of your party and followers.

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Volsung

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#9  Edited By Volsung
Member since 2019 • 380 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:
@mattbbpl said:

@Stevo_the_gamer: How is the government charging money for purchasing goods not a tax?

Think of it like the government charging companies for their "carbon" output. That eventually bleeds down to the consumer, but it's not a "tax" on the consumer.

-

Err...those are literally called carbon taxes.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#10 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45394 Posts

@volsung: Which are not aimed at the general public like say: a gas tax or a sugary beverage tax.

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mattbbpl

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#11 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17534 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

@volsung: Which are not aimed at the general public like say: a gas tax or a sugary beverage tax.

What separates it from the examples here? Both are per-widget consumption taxes. Is it merely the point of collection that's causing you categorize them differently?

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ComeOnMan

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#12 ComeOnMan
Member since 2017 • 247 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

After decades of hearing that tariffs are taxes from the Republican politicians and right wing activists such as Grover Norquist, I'm glad to hear that I've been turned around on the subject all this time.

Carry on, Trump! You've been given the blessing of your party and followers.

Tariffs are taxes. But they are only taxes on those that choose to purchase/consume those goods.

For years, I have chosen to "tax" myself by choosing to purchase Made in the USA goods whenever possible. Trump's tariffs have made that choice less stark. The extra you must spend for made in the USA is now less than it has been.

I encourage all of you to make a similar choice. Buy products that benefit your fellow countrymen (and countrywomen), rather than those that benefit the tyrannical rulers of China, and our own Benedict Arnold business leaders and corrupt politicians.

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mattbbpl

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#13 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17534 Posts

@comeonman said:
@mattbbpl said:

After decades of hearing that tariffs are taxes from the Republican politicians and right wing activists such as Grover Norquist, I'm glad to hear that I've been turned around on the subject all this time.

Carry on, Trump! You've been given the blessing of your party and followers.

Tariffs are taxes. But they are only taxes on those that choose to purchase/consume those goods.

For years, I have chosen to "tax" myself by choosing to purchase Made in the USA goods whenever possible. Trump's tariffs have made that choice less stark. The extra you must spend for made in the USA is now less than it has been.

I encourage all of you to make a similar choice. Buy products that benefit your fellow countrymen (and countrywomen), rather than those that benefit the tyrannical rulers of China, and our own Benedict Arnold business leaders and corrupt politicians.

That's true of all consumption taxes, including the gas/sugary drink ones Stevo mentioned above.

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ComeOnMan

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#14 ComeOnMan
Member since 2017 • 247 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

Tariffs are taxes. But they are only taxes on those that choose to purchase/consume those goods.

That's true of all consumption taxes, including the gas/sugary drink ones Stevo mentioned above.

I'm glad you agree that consumption taxes are voluntary.

From your linked source:

Those tariffs have led to some price increases, with some importers also taking a hit through lower profits. In some cases, Chinese suppliers have lowered their own prices to offset the tariff. Importers have also begun seeking new suppliers outside China, to avoid the tax.

Trump is raising tariffs today, but whether or not MY or YOUR taxes are being raised is dependent on many factors, including your own ability to choose. It makes me wonder why you chose your thread title.

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mattbbpl

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#15 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17534 Posts

@comeonman said:
@mattbbpl said:

Tariffs are taxes. But they are only taxes on those that choose to purchase/consume those goods.

That's true of all consumption taxes, including the gas/sugary drink ones Stevo mentioned above.

I'm glad you agree that consumption taxes are voluntary.

From your linked source:

Those tariffs have led to some price increases, with some importers also taking a hit through lower profits. In some cases, Chinese suppliers have lowered their own prices to offset the tariff. Importers have also begun seeking new suppliers outside China, to avoid the tax.

Trump is raising tariffs today, but whether or not MY or YOUR taxes are being raised is dependent on many factors, including your own ability to choose. It makes me wonder why you chose your thread title.

They are voluntary insomuch as the availability of an alternative non-taxed item for the same previous price exists. I'm quite interested in the turnabout on considering these and other consumption taxes as taxes (and potentially, depending on Stevo's response, the consideration of the point of collection in that determination). This can be used effectively in crafting and messaging future policy, just as it's being used here to craft and message current trade policy.

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Horgen

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#16 Horgen  Moderator
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@mattbbpl said:
@Stevo_the_gamer said:

@volsung: Which are not aimed at the general public like say: a gas tax or a sugary beverage tax.

What separates it from the examples here? Both are per-widget consumption taxes. Is it merely the point of collection that's causing you categorize them differently?

The taxes on the company are paid regardless of product being bought I believe.

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mattbbpl

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#17 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17534 Posts

@horgen said:
@mattbbpl said:
@Stevo_the_gamer said:

@volsung: Which are not aimed at the general public like say: a gas tax or a sugary beverage tax.

What separates it from the examples here? Both are per-widget consumption taxes. Is it merely the point of collection that's causing you categorize them differently?

The taxes on the company are paid regardless of product being bought I believe.

That distinction makes the two functionally identical other than the point of collection.

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Zaryia

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#18  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 9900 Posts

Semantics aside we can all agree with the Economists that this is bad .....right?

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Horgen

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#19 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121351 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

That distinction makes the two functionally identical other than the point of collection.

It ends up being the consumer paying for it yes. However it might not translate to a 1:1 price increase.

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vl4d_l3nin

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#20 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 1964 Posts

Despite the fact that Democrats and the media have lied to a gaslight the majority of the country to believe their actual taxes went up, they didn't. They tried to say that the working and middle class were going to be hurt by them. Complete lie. Receipts were down for 80% of the country, and wealthy property owners in blue states were the mostly the one who had it increase. Not exactly working class.

We are prepared for this. Whether or not it's a good idea, i couldn't say, we have to wait and see. My money is on "no"

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mattbbpl

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#21 mattbbpl
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@horgen said:
@mattbbpl said:

That distinction makes the two functionally identical other than the point of collection.

It ends up being the consumer paying for it yes. However it might not translate to a 1:1 price increase.

You are 100% correct in that assertion, albeit the effect due to inventory that is never sold will be negliible. Overall, I'm fine with that rationale if we are going to stop arguing that taxes on companies are taxes on consumers, and that taxes/tax cuts/increased costs to companies are always trickled down to consumers in such a fashion.

Cost increases on a per unit basis often don't transfer 100% - they tend to transfer more fully than a cost increase on a profit basis or on a fixed basis. Cost increases on a per percent of profit or fixed basis are even less likely than that to trickle down in a 1:1 ratio.

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joebones5000

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#22  Edited By joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2802 Posts

Trump and Republicans have already raised my taxes with their so called tax cuts. This just makes it worse.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#23 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

After decades of hearing that tariffs are taxes from the Republican politicians and right wing activists such as Grover Norquist, I'm glad to hear that I've been turned around on the subject all this time.

Carry on, Trump! You've been given the blessing of your party and followers.

It's mind boggling to see the usual suspects arguing against decades of normal dogma. Arguing that tariffs aren't taxes is f*cking stupid. Everyone knows they are.

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#24 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:

Despite the fact that Democrats and the media have lied to a gaslight the majority of the country to believe their actual taxes went up, they didn't. They tried to say that the working and middle class were going to be hurt by them. Complete lie. Receipts were down for 80% of the country, and wealthy property owners in blue states were the mostly the one who had it increase. Not exactly working class.

We are prepared for this. Whether or not it's a good idea, i couldn't say, we have to wait and see. My money is on "no"

We're talking about the taxes on imported goods from China, not SALT from the 2017 tax bill.

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SaltSlasher

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#25 SaltSlasher
Member since 2015 • 1347 Posts

Now we can go back to buying American products.

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#26 sonicare
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@joebones5000 said:

Trump and Republicans have already raised my taxes with their so called tax cuts. This just makes it worse.

How have they raised your taxes with the tax cuts? They've raised the deficit, but that's a different thing.

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#27 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@sonicare said:
@joebones5000 said:

Trump and Republicans have already raised my taxes with their so called tax cuts. This just makes it worse.

How have they raised your taxes with the tax cuts? They've raised the deficit, but that's a different thing.

The Trump tax cuts limited SALT to $10,000 per year. This means it can't be deducted for federal taxable income. For people who live in higher income taxed states this could result in a net increase in total taxation.

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#28 sonicare
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@HoolaHoopMan said:
@sonicare said:
@joebones5000 said:

Trump and Republicans have already raised my taxes with their so called tax cuts. This just makes it worse.

How have they raised your taxes with the tax cuts? They've raised the deficit, but that's a different thing.

The Trump tax cuts limited SALT to $10,000 per year. This means it can't be deducted for federal taxable income. For people who live in higher income taxed states this could result in a net increase in total taxation.

That would apply to those making considerable income. If you're paying more than 10,000 in SALT, you're probably not hard up.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#29 HoolaHoopMan
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@sonicare said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:
@sonicare said:

How have they raised your taxes with the tax cuts? They've raised the deficit, but that's a different thing.

The Trump tax cuts limited SALT to $10,000 per year. This means it can't be deducted for federal taxable income. For people who live in higher income taxed states this could result in a net increase in total taxation.

That would apply to those making considerable income. If you're paying more than 10,000 in SALT, you're probably not hard up.

I definitely agree. However, this means that Trump did raise taxes effective with his tax cuts. It's a simple truth that people need to at least acknowledge.

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LJS9502_basic

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#30 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167426 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

@volsung: Which are not aimed at the general public like say: a gas tax or a sugary beverage tax.

No it's aimed at the general public.

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joebones5000

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#31  Edited By joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2802 Posts

@sonicare said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:
@sonicare said:
@joebones5000 said:

Trump and Republicans have already raised my taxes with their so called tax cuts. This just makes it worse.

How have they raised your taxes with the tax cuts? They've raised the deficit, but that's a different thing.

The Trump tax cuts limited SALT to $10,000 per year. This means it can't be deducted for federal taxable income. For people who live in higher income taxed states this could result in a net increase in total taxation.

That would apply to those making considerable income. If you're paying more than 10,000 in SALT, you're probably not hard up.

Considerable income? Nope. Low 6 figures. $15k in property taxes, but 100% tax deductible for me, as they're business expenses, but I made the same amount last time and had $1,800 in more taxable income this time.

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#32  Edited By foxhound_fox
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@comeonman said:

Your "taxes" are only going to be raised if you choose to purchase the goods having tariffs placed on them.

How many goods are still manufactured anywhere but in China? GM cars are made in China now. Apple phones are made in China (well, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, etc). A large part of the American steel industry uses Chinese-made steel bar stock.

Trump doesn't care about the poor and middle class. He cares about his corporate sponsors and his own business interests benefiting from these tariffs.

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#33 warmblur
Member since 2017 • 3197 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:
@comeonman said:

Your "taxes" are only going to be raised if you choose to purchase the goods having tariffs placed on them.

How many goods are still manufactured anywhere but in China? GM cars are made in China now. Apple phones are made in China (well, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, etc). A large part of the American steel industry uses Chinese-made steel bar stock.

Trump doesn't care about the poor and middle class. He cares about his corporate sponsors and his own business interests benefiting from these tariffs.

This x 100000 Trump is the swamp.

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LJS9502_basic

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#34 LJS9502_basic
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@foxhound_fox said:
@comeonman said:

Your "taxes" are only going to be raised if you choose to purchase the goods having tariffs placed on them.

How many goods are still manufactured anywhere but in China? GM cars are made in China now. Apple phones are made in China (well, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, etc). A large part of the American steel industry uses Chinese-made steel bar stock.

Trump doesn't care about the poor and middle class. He cares about his corporate sponsors and his own business interests benefiting from these tariffs.

Exactly. And I cannot fathom why people cannot see that.

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vl4d_l3nin

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#35 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 1964 Posts
@HoolaHoopMan said:
@vl4d_l3nin said:

Despite the fact that Democrats and the media have lied to a gaslight the majority of the country to believe their actual taxes went up, they didn't. They tried to say that the working and middle class were going to be hurt by them. Complete lie. Receipts were down for 80% of the country, and wealthy property owners in blue states were the mostly the one who had it increase. Not exactly working class.

We are prepared for this. Whether or not it's a good idea, i couldn't say, we have to wait and see. My money is on "no"

We're talking about the taxes on imported goods from China, not SALT from the 2017 tax bill.

My point was the fact that taxes were cut, we are prepared for it, even if people have been deluded into believing we are not.

You have no choice to pay taxes. No one is forcing you to buy Chinese goods.

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#36 Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 5201 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:
@comeonman said:

Your "taxes" are only going to be raised if you choose to purchase the goods having tariffs placed on them.

How many goods are still manufactured anywhere but in China? GM cars are made in China now. Apple phones are made in China (well, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, etc). A large part of the American steel industry uses Chinese-made steel bar stock.

With such a first sentence, well, a lot more than you are aware of.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#37  Edited By HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:

We're talking about the taxes on imported goods from China, not SALT from the 2017 tax bill.

My point was the fact that taxes were cut, we are prepared for it, even if people have been deluded into believing we are not.

Your point was also entirely irrelevant to the original post.

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vl4d_l3nin

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#38 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 1964 Posts
@HoolaHoopMan said:
@vl4d_l3nin said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:

We're talking about the taxes on imported goods from China, not SALT from the 2017 tax bill.

My point was the fact that taxes were cut, we are prepared for it, even if people have been deluded into believing we are not.

Your point was also entirely irrelevant to the original post.

@HoolaHoopMan said:
@vl4d_l3nin said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:

We're talking about the taxes on imported goods from China, not SALT from the 2017 tax bill.

My point was the fact that taxes were cut, we are prepared for it, even if people have been deluded into believing we are not.

Your point was also entirely irrelevant to the original post.

What do you mean?

This thread is about taxes, isn't it?

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HoolaHoopMan

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#39 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:

What do you mean?

This thread is about taxes, isn't it?

It's specific to the tariffs Trump is imposing on the American people. There's no need to play coy.

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warmblur

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#40 warmblur
Member since 2017 • 3197 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@foxhound_fox said:
@comeonman said:

Your "taxes" are only going to be raised if you choose to purchase the goods having tariffs placed on them.

How many goods are still manufactured anywhere but in China? GM cars are made in China now. Apple phones are made in China (well, Taiwan, Vietnam, etc, etc). A large part of the American steel industry uses Chinese-made steel bar stock.

Trump doesn't care about the poor and middle class. He cares about his corporate sponsors and his own business interests benefiting from these tariffs.

Exactly. And I cannot fathom why people cannot see that.

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DaVillain-

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#41 DaVillain-  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 38547 Posts

Gotta do something to offset the permanent tax cuts to the rich.

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Serraph105

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#42 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34118 Posts

It's going to be a Dollar Tree Christmas this year.

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#43  Edited By Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34118 Posts

@saltslasher said:Now we can go back to buying American products.

No, people, particularly those who can't afford to pay for more expensive American products (if they're even made here at all at this point), will still pay for products made in China. They'll pay more for them than they currently do, but they won't pay as much as if they were buying American. The "virtue" of being made in America won't change the fact that they can't afford them or change the fact that people still feel the need to stretch their dollars as far as they can go.

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#44  Edited By Sevenizz
Member since 2010 • 4091 Posts

And when the Dems win the presidency eventually - get ready for your taxes to skyrocket.

Let’s hope that never happens!

Trump 2020!

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#45 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17245 Posts

@Sevenizz: trump/Putin 2020!!

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#46 Sevenizz
Member since 2010 • 4091 Posts

@tenaka2: You should really be thankful Trump is standing up to China as they’ve been fleecing the US/World for decades. Other world leaders should take note.

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#47  Edited By tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17245 Posts

@Sevenizz: China is fleecing the world? You clearly have no idea of the history of your own country.

It is not clear which is worse at the moment, the fact that the u.s. has a truly disgusting president or the fact that people like you worship him.

My only hope is that you are young and don't know any better.

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sonicare

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#48 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 56900 Posts

@joebones5000 said:
@sonicare said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:
@sonicare said:
@joebones5000 said:

Trump and Republicans have already raised my taxes with their so called tax cuts. This just makes it worse.

How have they raised your taxes with the tax cuts? They've raised the deficit, but that's a different thing.

The Trump tax cuts limited SALT to $10,000 per year. This means it can't be deducted for federal taxable income. For people who live in higher income taxed states this could result in a net increase in total taxation.

That would apply to those making considerable income. If you're paying more than 10,000 in SALT, you're probably not hard up.

Considerable income? Nope. Low 6 figures. $15k in property taxes, but 100% tax deductible for me, as they're business expenses, but I made the same amount last time and had $1,800 in more taxable income this time.

If you're making 6 figures, you're not hard up. You are making more than twice the median worker's salary, dude. You should be happy because higher taxes on higher wage earners is the democratic motto. You should be happy to see your taxes triple because then you'd be paying your fair share.

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#49 joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2802 Posts

@sonicare said:

If you're making 6 figures, you're not hard up. You are making more than twice the median worker's salary, dude. You should be happy because higher taxes on higher wage earners is the democratic motto. You should be happy to see your taxes triple because then you'd be paying your fair share.

My taxes were lower under Obama, so your statement doesn't make sense.

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#50 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 56900 Posts

@joebones5000 said:
@sonicare said:

If you're making 6 figures, you're not hard up. You are making more than twice the median worker's salary, dude. You should be happy because higher taxes on higher wage earners is the democratic motto. You should be happy to see your taxes triple because then you'd be paying your fair share.

My taxes were lower under Obama, so your statement doesn't make sense.

Yes it does. Tax the rich. You're likely in the top 10% so pay up.