Trump: "I have the absolute right to PARDON myself"

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Serraph105

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#1  Edited By Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36038 Posts

And there it is, from orange asshole himself. He believes himself to be above the law. To be fair he basically proves that on a weekly basis so who am I to argue whether a president isn't above the law.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1003616210922147841?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnbc.com%2F2018%2F06%2F04%2Ftrump-i-have-the-absolute-right-to-pardon-myself.html

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#2 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

NO COLLUSION!

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JoshRMeyer

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#3 JoshRMeyer
Member since 2015 • 12571 Posts

Sounds like he's had numerous legal scholars inform him he has that right. Don't see how that makes you above the law, if that is the law. Ugh, another 6 1/2 years of Trump bashing articles ??.

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LJS9502_basic

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#4 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@joshrmeyer said:

Sounds like he's had numerous legal scholars inform him he has that right. Don't see how that makes you above the law, if that is the law. Ugh, another 6 1/2 years of Trump bashing articles ??.

That makes him a dictator................we don't want those in this country.

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speedfreak48t5p

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#5 speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14411 Posts

That twitter post of me is fake news created by dishonest media to slander me. Sad!

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TryIt

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#6 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:
@joshrmeyer said:

Sounds like he's had numerous legal scholars inform him he has that right. Don't see how that makes you above the law, if that is the law. Ugh, another 6 1/2 years of Trump bashing articles ??.

That makes him a dictator................we don't want those in this country.

AND 'legal scholars' have not said he is right.

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Treflis

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#7 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts

Yeah I doubt it.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#8 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
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@joshrmeyer said:

Sounds like he's had numerous legal scholars inform him he has that right. Don't see how that makes you above the law, if that is the law. Ugh, another 6 1/2 years of Trump bashing articles ??.

lol, you wish.

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TryIt

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#9 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts

1998 - we must impeach a President for lying about sex under oath.

2018 - President can pardon himself

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N64DD

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#10 N64DD
Member since 2015 • 13167 Posts

@tryit said:

1998 - we must impeach a President for lying about sex under oath.

2018 - President can pardon himself

He can pardon himself, and has stated he will not.

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TryIt

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#11  Edited By TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@n64dd said:
@tryit said:

1998 - we must impeach a President for lying about sex under oath.

2018 - President can pardon himself

He can pardon himself, and has stated he will not.

isnt that the most precious thing ever!

such an upstanding guy!

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LJS9502_basic

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#12 LJS9502_basic  Online
Member since 2003 • 178811 Posts

@n64dd said:
@tryit said:

1998 - we must impeach a President for lying about sex under oath.

2018 - President can pardon himself

He can pardon himself, and has stated he will not.

Because his team/he says so does not make it true.

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mattbbpl

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#13 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

@joshrmeyer: If a president claims that he can pardon himself, thereby protecting himself legally from any and all actions to occur prior to and during his terms for the remainder of his life, he is truly claiming to be above the law.

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mattbbpl

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#14 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

It's not just him. His legal team is out there making the argument as well.

It looks like they're floating the argument for eventual use (assuming the test comes out positively).

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TryIt

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#15 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@mattbbpl said:

It's not just him. His legal team is out there making the argument as well.

It looks like they're floating the argument for eventual use (assuming the test comes out positively).

I think its just adordable the bit of 'we can but we wont'...lol

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Jacanuk

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#16 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@Serraph105: How can someone be above the law when the law is the reason why he could potentially "pardon" himself?.

The law is the law.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#17 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

@n64dd: You actually believe what Trump says at face value? Even at this point?

Good lord

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Jacanuk

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#18 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@mattbbpl said:

@joshrmeyer: If a president claims that he can pardon himself, thereby protecting himself legally from any and all actions to occur prior to and during his terms for the remainder of his life, he is truly claiming to be above the law.

Again you are talking complete and utter nonsense. You are pretty much claiming right now that people who have been pardoned/commuted by the president are above the law /facepalm.

If the law states the President can pardon anyone including himself, that does not make anyone above the law

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TryIt

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#19 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@Jacanuk said:
@mattbbpl said:

@joshrmeyer: If a president claims that he can pardon himself, thereby protecting himself legally from any and all actions to occur prior to and during his terms for the remainder of his life, he is truly claiming to be above the law.

Again you are talking complete and utter nonsense. You are pretty much claiming right now that people who have been pardoned/commuted by the president are above the law /facepalm.

If the law states the President can pardon anyone including himself, that does not make anyone above the law

it doesnt say that though, they are drawing implications.

regardless, that would be an outright Dictatorship.

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Dr_Vancouver

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#20 Dr_Vancouver
Member since 2017 • 1046 Posts

@speedfreak48t5p: "That twitter post of me is fake news created by dishonest media to slander me. Sad!"

Wow, Mr Trump, you're a member of these forums? That's pretty cool. Out of curiosity, what consoles do you game on, and what are your PC's specs?

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Serraph105

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#21 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36038 Posts

@Jacanuk said:

@Serraph105: How can someone be above the law when the law is the reason why he could potentially "pardon" himself?.

The law is the law.

So, when the president does it that means it's not illegal?

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horgen

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#22 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127492 Posts

To be honest, I didn't think the sitting president could be pardoned.

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Jacanuk

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#23 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@Serraph105 said:
@Jacanuk said:

@Serraph105: How can someone be above the law when the law is the reason why he could potentially "pardon" himself?.

The law is the law.

So, when the president does it that means it's not illegal?

When the president does what?

If you mean if the president pardons himself, then that is not illegal, it´s within the scope of his powers. The question you should have asked is "should the president use that power" and the answer to that would, of course, be a huge No, the ramifications of a president doing that is insane, Not even Nixon despite him saying that he could after he resigned, would even consider doing that.

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mattbbpl

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#24 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23010 Posts

@Jacanuk: "If you accuse someone of thinking they are above the law, you criticize them for thinking that they are so clever or important that they do not need to obey the law."

https://www-collinsdictionary-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.collinsdictionary.com/us/amp/english/above-the-law?amp_js_v=a1&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.collinsdictionary.com%2Fus%2Fdictionary%2Fenglish%2Fabove-the-law

It's the definition of above the law.

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Jacanuk

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#25 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@tryit said:

it doesnt say that though, they are drawing implications.

regardless, that would be an outright Dictatorship.

What doesn´t say what? the constitution?

But while it would not be "dictatorship" it would be utterly insane and no party should ever contain anyone within their ranks who would do it.

@horgen said:

To be honest, I didn't think the sitting president could be pardoned.

Well, if he did something illegal he would be able to pardon himself for that crime.

Unfortunately, i don´t think the forefathers even considered that anyone would actually even attempt such a monumental catastrophic deed.

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TryIt

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#26 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@Jacanuk said:
@tryit said:

it doesnt say that though, they are drawing implications.

regardless, that would be an outright Dictatorship.

What doesn´t say what? the constitution?

But while it would not be "dictatorship" it would be utterly insane and no party should ever contain anyone within their ranks who would do it.

@horgen said:

To be honest, I didn't think the sitting president could be pardoned.

Well, if he did something illegal he would be able to pardon himself for that crime.

Unfortunately, i don´t think the forefathers even considered that anyone would actually even attempt such a monumental catastrophic deed.

yes...the constitution does not say 'and even the president'

there is a huge difference legally between these two statements so you best get your statement right

'president can pardon anyone'

and

'president can pardon anyone including himself'

so no..the constitution does not say that.

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Serraph105

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#27 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36038 Posts

@joshrmeyer said:

Sounds like he's had numerous legal scholars inform him he has that right. Don't see how that makes you above the law, if that is the law. Ugh, another 6 1/2 years of Trump bashing articles ??.

In fairness this wasn't an article, I just used the president's tweet.

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Jacanuk

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#28 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@tryit said:
@Jacanuk said:
@tryit said:

it doesnt say that though, they are drawing implications.

regardless, that would be an outright Dictatorship.

What doesn´t say what? the constitution?

But while it would not be "dictatorship" it would be utterly insane and no party should ever contain anyone within their ranks who would do it.

@horgen said:

To be honest, I didn't think the sitting president could be pardoned.

Well, if he did something illegal he would be able to pardon himself for that crime.

Unfortunately, i don´t think the forefathers even considered that anyone would actually even attempt such a monumental catastrophic deed.

yes...the constitution does not say 'and even the president'

there is a huge difference legally between these two statements so you best get your statement right

'president can pardon anyone'

and

'president can pardon anyone including himself'

so no..the constitution does not say that.

You clearly don´t understand the point here.

The constitution grants the president almost unlimited pardoning power, which yes does mean that he could pardon himself, nothing states that he can´t.

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#29 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
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@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

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Jacanuk

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#30 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

Because Nixon would not abuse the power of the office like that.

Just because you have the legal power to do something, does not mean you should.

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#31 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
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@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

Because Nixon would not abuse the power of the office like that.

Just because you have the legal power to do something, does not mean you should.

Nixon already used the power of the federal government to spy on his political opponents and lied about it. That’s not abuse of power? Why wouldn’t pardoning himself qualify for abuse of power but not political spying?

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TryIt

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#32 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

Because Nixon would not abuse the power of the office like that.

Just because you have the legal power to do something, does not mean you should.

ah...again so sweet.

Nixon and Trump are some stand up guys, they would never abuse the office like that.

we should have voted for them!

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Jacanuk

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#33  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@perfect_blue said:
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

Because Nixon would not abuse the power of the office like that.

Just because you have the legal power to do something, does not mean you should.

Nixon already used the power of the federal government to spy on his political opponents and lied about it. That’s not abuse of power? Why wouldn’t pardoning himself qualify for abuse of power but not political spying?

You asked about why he didn´t pardon himself, not about his "crimes"

And breaking the law is not the same as following the law, so not sure why you would compare the two?

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#34 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

Because Nixon would not abuse the power of the office like that.

Just because you have the legal power to do something, does not mean you should.

Nixon already used the power of the federal government to spy on his political opponents and lied about it. That’s not abuse of power? Why wouldn’t pardoning himself qualify for abuse of power but not political spying?

You asked about why he didn´t pardon himself, not about his "crimes"

And breaking the law is not the same as following the law, so not sure why you would compare the two?

he broke those laws but he is honorable to the office of the presidency that he would want pardon himself

lol..

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#35 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
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@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

Because Nixon would not abuse the power of the office like that.

Just because you have the legal power to do something, does not mean you should.

Nixon already used the power of the federal government to spy on his political opponents and lied about it. That’s not abuse of power? Why wouldn’t pardoning himself qualify for abuse of power but not political spying?

You asked about why he didn´t pardon himself, not about his "crimes"

And breaking the law is not the same as following the law, so not sure why you would compare the two?

That’s exactly my point. You said yourself he ”would not abuse the power of the office like that”. It has already been established that he committed crimes during his time in office. If someone would resort to criminal activities during his time in office, what makes you think he would be against pardoning himself, even if it was an abuse of power?

The answer is quite easy: because he doesn’t have the power to pardon himself.

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DaBrainz

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#36 DaBrainz
Member since 2007 • 7959 Posts

So if the president has the power to pardon himself how is that Trumps fault? I mean its in the constitution the only thing he can't pardon is impeachment.

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Jacanuk

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#37 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@perfect_blue said:
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Why didn’t Nixon pardon himself rather than resign if he has that power?

Because Nixon would not abuse the power of the office like that.

Just because you have the legal power to do something, does not mean you should.

Nixon already used the power of the federal government to spy on his political opponents and lied about it. That’s not abuse of power? Why wouldn’t pardoning himself qualify for abuse of power but not political spying?

You asked about why he didn´t pardon himself, not about his "crimes"

And breaking the law is not the same as following the law, so not sure why you would compare the two?

That’s exactly my point. You said yourself he ”would not abuse the power of the office like that”. It has already been established that he committed crimes during his time in office. If someone would resort to criminal activities during his time in office, what makes you think he would be against pardoning himself, even if it was an abuse of power?

The answer is quite easy: because he doesn’t have the power to pardon himself.

So let´s be clear again, The American constitution does have the power for the president to pardon himself

So once you understand that, we can continue this debate.

Or please do reveal why your layman´s opinion is valid ? or did you hide something from us, do you have decades of legal expertise that can go against everything even legal experts on the left has said.

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horgen

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#38 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127492 Posts

I take it this has never been actually done, right?

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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#39 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

@Jacanuk: Where does it say they can pardon themselves?

Where is your legal experience?

It’s so easy to see when you lost an argument when you resort to personal attacks. How sad and pathetic.

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speedfreak48t5p

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#40 speedfreak48t5p
Member since 2009 • 14411 Posts

@dr_vancouver said:

@speedfreak48t5p: "That twitter post of me is fake news created by dishonest media to slander me. Sad!"

Wow, Mr Trump, you're a member of these forums? That's pretty cool. Out of curiosity, what consoles do you game on, and what are your PC's specs?

Pc master race of course. I like my games American made and without brown people.

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Jacanuk

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#41 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Where does it say they can pardon themselves?

Where is your legal experience?

It’s so easy to see when you lost an argument when you resort to personal attacks. How sad and pathetic.

In the constitution, you know the thing America has.

And no insults, I was just wondering where you come from and what made you think that your opinion is valid compared to the legal consensus there is among pretty much every legal expert that has been asked

Also, I did not lose anything mate, you lost the entire debate here so nice try passing it on like it was someone else.

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TryIt

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#42 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Where does it say they can pardon themselves?

Where is your legal experience?

It’s so easy to see when you lost an argument when you resort to personal attacks. How sad and pathetic.

In the constitution, you know the thing America has.

And no insults, I was just wondering where you come from and what made you think that your opinion is valid compared to the legal consensus there is among pretty much every legal expert that has been asked

Also, I did not lose anything mate, you lost the entire debate here so nice try passing it on like it was someone else.

sorry but again, legally there is a HUGE difference between

'can pardon anyone'

and

'can pardon anyone including himself'

and i would LOVE for him to try and then defend that in court, it would be hella fun

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#43 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

@Jacanuk: Can you then produce the specific amendment and section of the Consitution that says a President can pardon himself? If it’s so obvious you should easily be able to provide this information for everyone reading to see. The Supreme Court has never ruled on if a president can pardon himself.

You also haven’t linked or cited any legal experts. Why should anyone believe you that these “legal experts” even exist? Are you a liar? You haven’t provided any proof to any claim.

I haven’t lost anything, it’s you who is ignoring my argument lol. If a President has the power to pardon himself why didn’t Nixon? Your argument that he didn’t want to “abuse the power of the office” crumbles the second one realizes Nixon used that exact same time office to commit political crimes and spy on his enemies. So it’s pretty fair to think if he had the power to pardon himself he’d have done so.

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Jacanuk

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#44  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk: Can you then produce the specific amendment and section of the Consitution that says a President can pardon himself? If it’s so obvious you should easily be able to provide this information for everyone reading to see. The Supreme Court has never ruled on if a president can pardon himself.

You also haven’t linked or cited any legal experts. Why should anyone believe you that these “legal experts” even exist? Are you a liar? You haven’t provided any proof to any claim.

I haven’t lost anything, it’s you who is ignoring my argument lol. If a President has the power to pardon himself why didn’t Nixon? Your argument that he didn’t want to “abuse the power of the office” crumbles the second one realizes Nixon used that exact same time office to commit political crimes and spy on his enemies. So it’s pretty fair to think if he had the power to pardon himself he’d have done so.

Sure, let me do your job for you.

On the question of whether Trump has self-pardoning power, the weight of opinion appears to be with Giuliani—He can, but he shouldn't. UCal-Berkley law professor and former legal adviser to the Geoge W. Bush administration John Yoo speaks for the vast majority of scholars when he points out the Constitution grants the president virtually unlimited pardon power in Article II of the Constitution. The Constitution says the president can"grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment." That's it.

"President Trump can clearly pardon anyone — even himself — subject to the Mueller investigation," Professor Yoo writes.

Another former DOJ official, Andrew McCarthy, agrees with the legal consensus that a president can pardon himself, and goes even farther. He notes that Trump need not wait to be charged with a crime before issuing a pardon"

Mark Tushnet, William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law at Harvard Law School

"The constitutional arguments about self-pardoning are ... complex, and no one should have strongly held views about the correct analysis," Tushnet said. "That said, my view is that the weight of the arguments lies in favor of finding that the president has the power to self-pardon, because of the president's power to 'take care that the laws be faithfully executed.' This gives the president a great deal of discretion about initiating and terminating investigations, coupled with the absence of express limitations on the pardon power (other than barring pardoning in cases of impeachment, which isn't, technically, a criminal proceeding). But, as almost everyone also acknowledges, exercising the power to self-pardon would almost certainly trigger sufficient public outrage to make impeachment a realistic possibility — or, put another way, exercising the power to self-pardon, if the president has it, would be extraordinarily politically unwise (ordinarily). But, again, we aren't in ordinary times, and perhaps a self-pardon wouldn't trigger that reaction in the present circumstances."

So nice loss there mate, considering that you stated: "The answer is quite easy: because he doesn’t have the power to pardon himself." Which is based on zero legal experience and nothing but some strange hate for Trump.

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#45  Edited By TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@Jacanuk said:
@perfect_blue said:

@Jacanuk:

some strange hate for Trump.

there is nothing strange about it.

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#46 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 20281 Posts

@tryit: And exit Blue from the debate.

But yes there is something strange about a non-American having hate for a democratically elected president in another country. Since hate is not just simply a dislike and much stronger.

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#47  Edited By TryIt
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@Jacanuk said:

@tryit: And exit Blue from the debate.

But yes there is something strange about a non-American having hate for a democratically elected president in another country. Since hate is not just simply a dislike and much stronger.

no there is not.

being 'democratically elected' doesn't mean I suddenly like you or need to.

why people hate Trump should not (and is not) a mystery to you.

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#48  Edited By deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

@Jacanuk: You can find just as many people who say he can’t pardon himself. This hasn’t ever been tested in court.

Here’s an article from the very liberal FOX News: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/06/04/can-trump-self-pardon-legal-experts-weigh-in.html

It seems like they are split on it. It isn’t as clear cut as you think.

As for my dislike about Trump... the recent tariffs on Canada should be evidence enough as to why someone non-American would dislike him. This isn’t hard at all to understand.

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#49 nepu7supastar7
Member since 2007 • 6773 Posts

@Serraph105:

And he basically just admitted he was guilty!

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#50 TryIt
Member since 2017 • 13157 Posts
@nepu7supastar7 said:

@Serraph105:

And he basically just admitted he was guilty!

good point.

both sides assuming he is guilty appears to be the norm now.