Trump admin officially revokes California tailpipe admissions waiver

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nintendoboy16

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#1  Edited By nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 36629 Posts

The Hill

The Trump administration on Thursday officially revoked California's tailpipe waiver under the Clean Air Act, a decision that likely to face quick legal challenges.

The Department of Transportation (DOT) and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) unveiled the “One National Program Rule,” giving the federal government sole authority to set gas emission standards for cars.

The rule is part of the administration's Safer, Affordable, Fuel-Efficient (SAFE) Vehicles Rule, a draft of which was submitted to the White House in August.

The second part of the rule will include a final decision over what fuel efficiency levels to set emissions at starting in 2025.

Revoking California's waiver will also affect 13 other states which follow California’s clean air rules.

“One national standard provides much-needed regulatory certainty for the automotive industry and sets the stage for the Trump Administration’s final SAFE rule that will save lives and promote economic growth by reducing the price of new vehicles to help more Americans purchase newer, cleaner, and safer cars and trucks," EPA Administrator Andrew Wheeler said in a statement.

President Trump on Wednesday tweeted that the waiver would be revoked while he was fundraising in California.

California Attorney General Xavier Becerra has threatened to sue the administration if it moved to revoke the state's waiver, which was granted to them under the Obama administration.

But states' rights... oh wait, if you're a liberal or Democratic leaning states, then these don't apply to you.

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Jacanuk

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#2 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19038 Posts

It´s a crazy time we live in.

Under Obama it was fine and the president and his administration had every right to give them a waiver, but under Trump, the president and his administration suddenly don´t have the same equal power because he is now removing it.

Guess another case that will most likely be going to the supreme court because the lower courts are to political.

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joebones5000

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#3 joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2797 Posts

We have a Republican in charge so those"states rights" that they've cried about before no longer matter. Republicans are the bottom of the barrel.

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Jacanuk

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#4 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19038 Posts
@joebones5000 said:

We have a Republican in charge so those"states rights" that they've cried about before no longer matter. Republicans are the bottom of the barrel.

States rights? What on earth are you talking about

They got the waiver from a Federal admin and it´s now removed again by a Federal admin.

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Solaryellow

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#5 Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 5197 Posts

@Jacanuk said:

It´s a crazy time we live in.

Under Obama it was fine and the president and his administration had every right to give them a waiver, but under Trump, the president and his administration suddenly don´t have the same equal power because he is now removing it.

Guess another case that will most likely be going to the supreme court because the lower courts are to political.

The rules are different when it's not their guy doing it. When he does it, the line is crossed. There is a great deal of immaturity making the rounds.

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Horgen

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#6 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121337 Posts

@Solaryellow said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s a crazy time we live in.

Under Obama it was fine and the president and his administration had every right to give them a waiver, but under Trump, the president and his administration suddenly don´t have the same equal power because he is now removing it.

Guess another case that will most likely be going to the supreme court because the lower courts are to political.

The rules are different when it's not their guy doing it. When he does it, the line is crossed. There is a great deal of immaturity making the rounds.

You guys are all about state rights.

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comp_atkins

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#7 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35928 Posts

new turmp fuel standards: all new cars must get no more than 15 mpg

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Jacanuk

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#8 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19038 Posts
@horgen said:
@Solaryellow said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s a crazy time we live in.

Under Obama it was fine and the president and his administration had every right to give them a waiver, but under Trump, the president and his administration suddenly don´t have the same equal power because he is now removing it.

Guess another case that will most likely be going to the supreme court because the lower courts are to political.

The rules are different when it's not their guy doing it. When he does it, the line is crossed. There is a great deal of immaturity making the rounds.

You guys are all about state rights.

Sure, but this again has nothing to do with states rights.

Again let´s take it from the top. A federal waiver was granted, and now a federal admin is removing it.

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Horgen

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#9 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121337 Posts

@Jacanuk said:

Sure, but this again has nothing to do with states rights.

Again let´s take it from the top. A federal waiver was granted, and now a federal admin is removing it.

13 other states as well. So this isn't a CA only thing. It might as well be a states right issue now.

Wouldn't Texas school book laws fall in under the same umbrella here?

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Jacanuk

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#10 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19038 Posts
@horgen said:
@Jacanuk said:

Sure, but this again has nothing to do with states rights.

Again let´s take it from the top. A federal waiver was granted, and now a federal admin is removing it.

13 other states as well. So this isn't a CA only thing. It might as well be a states right issue now.

Wouldn't Texas school book laws fall in under the same umbrella here?

Not really since it´s not a state legislated move.

It´s again a Federally mandate which is removed Federally.

Also, no Texas legislation is Texas legislation not something that is given by a federal mandate.

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LJS9502_basic

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#11 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167375 Posts

@horgen said:
@Solaryellow said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s a crazy time we live in.

Under Obama it was fine and the president and his administration had every right to give them a waiver, but under Trump, the president and his administration suddenly don´t have the same equal power because he is now removing it.

Guess another case that will most likely be going to the supreme court because the lower courts are to political.

The rules are different when it's not their guy doing it. When he does it, the line is crossed. There is a great deal of immaturity making the rounds.

You guys are all about state rights.

Not when Federal is under Republicans. Then they don't care. If a Democrat did this they'd be crying.

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Zaryia

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#12 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 9876 Posts

I don't get why the GOP doesn't want cleaner air and less climate change.

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LJS9502_basic

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#13 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167375 Posts

@zaryia said:

I don't get why the GOP doesn't want cleaner air and less climate change.

Cuts down on profits.……….

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mrbojangles25

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#14 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44564 Posts

@horgen said:
@Solaryellow said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s a crazy time we live in.

Under Obama it was fine and the president and his administration had every right to give them a waiver, but under Trump, the president and his administration suddenly don´t have the same equal power because he is now removing it.

Guess another case that will most likely be going to the supreme court because the lower courts are to political.

The rules are different when it's not their guy doing it. When he does it, the line is crossed. There is a great deal of immaturity making the rounds.

You guys are all about state rights.

Pretty much. Small government and state's rights is what the GOP are--or rather, were--all about.

It's not hypocrisy when people call a party on their bullshit.

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Horgen

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#15 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121337 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@zaryia said:

I don't get why the GOP doesn't want cleaner air and less climate change.

Cuts down on profits.……….

Won't be much profit after awhile.

Keeping the population healthy means they will be more productive, earn themselves and their investors more money.

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#16  Edited By GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 8658 Posts

This changes nothing about the way cars are made. Why would they bother making cars heavier* or changing anything when in a year the law is just going to get passed again anyway.

Weird that Republicans are allowing federal meddling in state level affairs too, I didn't know they loved to do that

* (why tf does that make them safer, just makes them hit stuff harder in a collision, safety ratings were going up on cars so they're getting safer regardless of weight, it's the tech used not how heavy shit is dumbass)

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Serraph105

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#17 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34112 Posts

Once again, we find ourselves with a president who is actively fighting against more efficient technology. Those who back him are endorsing that idiotic behavior.

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#18 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45393 Posts

The free market will continue to evolve to show more efficient cars are a factor in what consumers look for in their vehicles.

This is especially so in California because everything is so expensive; gas prices, car registration, smog tests, state vehicle taxes, etc.

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#19 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 56894 Posts

Total overreach. States rights are important. Any power not specifically granted to the federal government is in the state's domain.

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sonicare

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#20 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 56894 Posts
@Serraph105 said:

Once again, we find ourselves with a president who is actively fighting against more efficient technology. Those who back him are endorsing that idiotic behavior.

Not just fighting technology. In the pocket of energy companies and actively torpedoing the environment for no legitimate reason.

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#21  Edited By KazHirai
Member since 2019 • 24 Posts
@girlusocrazy said:

This changes nothing about the way cars are made. Why would they bother making cars heavier* or changing anything when in a year the law is just going to get passed again anyway.

Weird that Republicans are allowing federal meddling in state level affairs too, I didn't know they loved to do that

* (why tf does that make them safer, just makes them hit stuff harder in a collision, safety ratings were going up on cars so they're getting safer regardless of weight, it's the tech used not how heavy shit is dumbass)

The problem is California is becoming a dictatorial system for the rest of the United States in certain regards due to their population and political influence. Ever notice labels on certain things that say "This product is known to the State of California to cause cancer" and yada, yada when you're to hell and gone thousands of miles away from that state and these products aren't even manufactured there?

That's the same situation with emissions, auto manufacturers are complying with California's standards for emissions instead of federal standards and as a result we get vehicles which are modified to their specifications across every inch of this country. Instead of having one standard for the remaining 49 states and one for California they simply operate under California's to save the hassle of having two.

No state should have that kind of sway over a nation comprised of 49 other states.

I'll tell you why California emissions are shit and the kind of things they screw up for the rest of us.

My motorcycle weighs an additional 16 pounds because of an overbearing catalytic converter system fitted merely to conform with their emissions. This costs several hundred dollars to eliminate and have fitted with a link pipe not to mention you have to gut out the EXUP system and its cables for the exhaust flow valve. This whole process including installing a new link pipe takes about 2-3 hours.

My motorcycle has a SMOG system due to their regulations which takes unspent fuel and forces it into the catalytic converter to burn up and trap the carbon before the air exits the exhaust. This is fine in concept but the problem is the bike is tuned for the cat, if you remove it to not only get more power but also save weight your bike will electronically go lean to correct for its removal and pop and backfire on deceleration. To BEGIN correcting this you have to spend about an hour removing the entire top end of the bike, fuel tank, air dam and the intake system just to get to the SMOG setup. Once you get to it and disassemble and remove it you have to install $40 block off plates where the SMOG unit used to be and then put it all back together which takes another hour.

Once this is done you're now left a bike that is improperly tuned so you have to take it to a shop and spend $300-$500 to have the bikes fuel/air curves remapped on a dyno just so it will run properly.

After all is said and done you're out 5-7 hours of personal labor, and nearly $700 just to correct for the removal of their emission systems.

We don't even have emissions on motorcycles in my state...

To hell with California, throw the god damned book at them. State's rights don't override federal law, its jurisdiction is everywhere and it's the supreme law of the land. It's quite clear that ones emission standards must meet federal standards but there is no protection allowing them to exceed them, especially when that comes at the cost of and undermines regulations everywhere else.

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LJS9502_basic

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#22 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167375 Posts

@kazhirai: Wrong. California has their standards for their state. Other states CHOSE to adopt it. They weren't forced. Learn the difference.

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#23 GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 8658 Posts

@LJS9502_basic: Exactly, we let states run things the way they want, they're supposed to be more independent. @KazHirai: So you see, in reality, it's the feds are becoming dictatorial and not letting the states be independent.

California is definitely not dictatorial. They're setting their own standards and NOT forcing others to go along. They could end up with no cars because of this, or only one type of car specifically for California. It could all be teslas and smart cars. Here, the feds ARE acting dictatorial, by removing the state's independence against their will.

The auto market decides what to do by themselves and if they think it isn't safe or profitable then they won't cater to California. But the truth is the rest of the world are already demanding cars for the same standards so this will change nothing. Even if manufacturers pondered adoption of more lax standards just for the US, they still would not go forward amid such uncertainty. Things are not very stable here right now, and the Fed order to dictate Cali's standards are ending up in court with 23 other states backing them.

Will the feds try and dictate what half the states want to do? We'll have to see how things go in court, if states lose their independence, then perhaps. Undoubtedly will go through a long appeals process too. Meanwhile emissions standards worldwide will only get stricter as time goes on.

Really this fight is a waste of taxpayer money and government resources.

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KazHirai

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#24 KazHirai
Member since 2019 • 24 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:

@kazhirai: Wrong. California has their standards for their state. Other states CHOSE to adopt it. They weren't forced. Learn the difference.

This is a nice fantasy but reality has different groundwork to lay. The reality is given the populous of California and the amount of cars purchased in the state automakers design their vehicles around these emission standards and release cars under this standard nationally. They can't create them under the federal standard because then California would reject them, so they just create one model and release, it's nonsensical to create two. Other states won't reject them because they meet or exceed the federal standard so they're rolled out everywhere.

The point being though is these 49 other states would accept them all the same if they were at the federal standard so California is very much dictating the current national emission standards.

@girlusocrazy said:

@KazHirai: So you see, in reality, it's the feds are becoming dictatorial and not letting the states be independent.

California is definitely not dictatorial. They're setting their own standards and NOT forcing others to go along. They could end up with no cars because of this, or only one type of car specifically for California. It could all be teslas and smart cars. Here, the feds ARE acting dictatorial, by removing the state's independence against their will.

The auto market decides what to do by themselves and if they think it isn't safe or profitable then they won't cater to California. But the truth is the rest of the world are already demanding cars for the same standards so this will change nothing. Even if manufacturers pondered adoption of more lax standards just for the US, they still would not go forward amid such uncertainty. Things are not very stable here right now, and the Fed order to dictate Cali's standards are ending up in court with 23 other states backing them.

Will the feds try and dictate what half the states want to do? We'll have to see how things go in court, if states lose their independence, then perhaps. Undoubtedly will go through a long appeals process too. Meanwhile emissions standards worldwide will only get stricter as time goes on.

Really this fight is a waste of taxpayer money and government resources.

Here's the thing, California has no right to a higher emission standard than the federal level. They were granted a waiver, it's clear that this waiver was a mistake due to the result of their emissions having a compulsory knock-on effect on the auto industry nationally and as a result it's being revoked. While this makes cars more CO friendly it also makes them more expensive and has some negative results as demonstrated via my motorcycle.

Nothing happening within the sovereignty of a single state should have a knock-on effect in any other state whether directly or indirectly. That is the role of the federal government, not a state government. When it's clear that lines are being crossed it needs to be called into question, it needs to be analysed and a state needs to be put in check.

If you're not familiar with the Supremacy Clause I think it's time you do a little research, no state has the right to overstep federal law or regulation, federal law and regulations trump state law and regulation without exception. The federal government can choose to respect what a state is doing but they have no obligation whatsoever to allow it to take place and can dismantle it at will if they don't find it agreeable.

These 24 states can sue the fed until the cows come home, but at the end of the day it's a frivolous lawsuit against a higher power who has impunity.