Trump Abandons Kurd Allies With Full Withdrawal. Turkey Immediately Attacks Kurdish Forces.

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Vaasman

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#1 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14028 Posts

https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Turkey-attacks-Kurds-SDF-in-Iraq-Syria-as-US-withdraws-604010

It seems Turkey didn't care much about Trumps tweets about devastating their economy with his bigly wisdom. We've left a key Middle Eastern ally at the mercy of an authoritarian strongman government, which immediately went on the offensive in Syria and Iraq, despite a super stern warning via twitter from the president.

This is yet another terrible blow to our perception in the world stage. We've brazenly abandoned an ally in need, who we had already committed to, for no real reason. Between this and pulling out of European agreements, shitting on allies near and far, and cuddling with dictators, how can anyone ever trust us again? Every American treaty, agreement, trade deal, or negotiation will have a safe window of 4 years at most, before some jackass potentially rolls into office to undo it all.

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tenaka2

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#2 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17246 Posts

It's what russia wants, why are people confused by this?

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redrichard

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#3 redrichard
Member since 2015 • 193 Posts

Not surprising that the countries with an idea of the region are cleaning up Russian and American interference.

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LJS9502_basic

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#4 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167848 Posts

Putin is pleased.

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MirkoS77

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#5  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14626 Posts

Making America great again, right. Trump's doing nothing but weakening us through terrible foreign policy, even his sycophants are opposing this. As Vaas said, who the hell will ever trust us again? I know that Republicans are a bunch of gutless cowards who won't ever think of betraying this traitor in the OO, but you'd think at some point after watching their country be significantly weakened not only here but abroad they'd act to salvage what's left of this dumpster fire. We honestly cannot tolerate another 4 years of this. If Trump wins 2020, I fear the damage done to America will be irrecoverable.

Aside, had to do a double take on the site revision. I kind of like this change for once, it has a more modern look and feel.

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sonicare

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#6 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 57006 Posts

Shameful. But what else would you expect from the current administration?

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Treflis

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#7 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13681 Posts

I severely doubt the US will be able to gain any allies in the region and overall trust in the future from such a blatant middle finger to an ally.
More so when said ally was instrumental in dismantling ISIS in the region.

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comp_atkins

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#8 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35992 Posts
@MirkoS77 said:

Making America great again, right. Trump's doing nothing but weakening us through terrible foreign policy, even his sycophants are opposing this. As Vaas said, who the hell will ever trust us again? I know that Republicans are a bunch of gutless cowards who won't ever think of betraying this traitor in the OO, but you'd think at some point after watching their country be significantly weakened not only here but abroad they'd act to salvage what's left of this dumpster fire. We honestly cannot tolerate another 4 years of this. If Trump wins 2020, I fear the damage done to America will be irrecoverable.

Aside, had to do a double take on the site revision. I kind of like this change for once, it has a more modern look and feel.

agreed, it does feel nicer

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LeicaM6

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#9 LeicaM6
Member since 2019 • 234 Posts

It’s pretty shameful but *shrugs* the US has no appetite for another Middle East quagmire nor do they want to stick around and go to war vs. Turkey, Syria, Russia, and whomever else is hedging their bets in Syria. ISIS in any meaningful capacity has been defeated, which is why the US ever conducted operations in the region, so they have no reason to stick around now.

This is actually pretty consistent for their policy in the region anyway - the US have thrown other non-nation state groups like the Palestinians under the bus for years, so I don’t see the surprise. The US has always been someone who cares only about their own interests and it’s not in their interest to stay mired in that region.

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JimB

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#10 JimB
Member since 2002 • 2607 Posts

The US has 50 to 100 special operators in Syria. That number can not stop any invasion. How can so few in Syria stop an attack in Iraq where the attack took place. Why are we still there? Why aren't the Europeans there? They are closer to the problem than the US. Many of our so called allies take advantage of us in trade deals and even treaties. As long as it is US military personnel dying they are content. It is time we get out of many foreign countries and let them defend themselves.

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sakaiXx

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#11 sakaiXx
Member since 2013 • 6389 Posts

What with turkey not wanting the Kurds to achieve independence? They get their peace and the Kurds gets their deserved land. I mean if its religion I think doesnt both belong to the same sect?

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plageus900

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#12 plageus900
Member since 2013 • 2774 Posts

@JimB: Because we stuck our nose in their business 17 years ago. It's poor form to occupy a region for almost two decades, screw everything up and then do an about face and leave. Trump is pissing off a lot of allies by doing this.

You can't turn around a say Europe should handle this when it was us that created the problem in the first place.

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watercrack445

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#13  Edited By watercrack445
Member since 2017 • 2057 Posts

Um...Am I the only one that think we should get out of this conflict? We are there only because we have bunch of warhawks in Congress and in Trump admin. We were never there to bring peace to the region in the first place.

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JimB

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#14  Edited By JimB
Member since 2002 • 2607 Posts

@plageus900 said:

@JimB: Because we stuck our nose in their business 17 years ago. It's poor form to occupy a region for almost two decades, screw everything up and then do an about face and leave. Trump is pissing off a lot of allies by doing this.

You can't turn around a say Europe should handle this when it was us that created the problem in the first place.

17 years ago people from this region of the world attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens. I would have rather we razed the area so a blind man walking over the ground would not stumble. Trump now has the right idea when it comes to fighting wars. When attacked destroy them and leave.

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Horgen

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#15 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121541 Posts

@JimB: You attacked the wrong nation/people for that though...

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Treflis

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#16 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13681 Posts

@JimB said:
@plageus900 said:

@JimB: Because we stuck our nose in their business 17 years ago. It's poor form to occupy a region for almost two decades, screw everything up and then do an about face and leave. Trump is pissing off a lot of allies by doing this.

You can't turn around a say Europe should handle this when it was us that created the problem in the first place.

17 years ago people from this region of the world attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens. I would have rather we razed the area so a blind man walking over the ground would not stumble. Trump now has the right idea when it comes to fighting wars. When attacked destroy them and leave.

Ironic enough, Trumps action now might fuel even more anti-US sentiments.
Not to mention a definite reconsideration of any alliance.

People don't tend to enjoy getting a knife in the back after helping someone.

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joebones5000

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#17 joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2862 Posts

Another Trump failure. Anyone surprised?

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Nuck81

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#18 Nuck81
Member since 2005 • 7858 Posts

I bet jimB was ecstatic when Obama wanted to withdraw from Iraq.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#19 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45434 Posts

So the left wants troops stationed overseas in a conflict that isn't our own? Interesting.

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Vaasman

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#20 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14028 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

So the left wants troops stationed overseas in a conflict that isn't our own? Interesting.

Rather lame deflection. If the answer wasn't "protracted land war against an uncertain enemy" in the first place, that doesn't make the answer "randomly abandon a longtime, faithful ally who fought a noble cause against a clear enemy, condemning them to desolation," now.

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LeicaM6

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#21 LeicaM6
Member since 2019 • 234 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

So the left wants troops stationed overseas in a conflict that isn't our own? Interesting.

I am amused that you are only now learning that members of “the left” have quite varied views on many issues.

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jeezers

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#22 jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3534 Posts

We should pull out, these wars are not in our best interest, eventually we have to stop being the worlds police. I think we have done enough damage in the middle east. We were there to combat Isis and that was it. The middle east will always be in conflict, what is the point.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#23 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45434 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@Stevo_the_gamer said:

So the left wants troops stationed overseas in a conflict that isn't our own? Interesting.

Rather lame deflection. If the answer wasn't "protracted land war against an uncertain enemy" in the first place, that doesn't make the answer "randomly abandon a longtime, faithful ally who fought a noble cause against a clear enemy, condemning them to desolation," now.

Anyone who believes this is random clearly missed his campaign goal from 2016, and of course, the past disagreements over the years with John Bolton/Mattis.

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Vaasman

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#24 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14028 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:
@Vaasman said:

Rather lame deflection. If the answer wasn't "protracted land war against an uncertain enemy" in the first place, that doesn't make the answer "randomly abandon a longtime, faithful ally who fought a noble cause against a clear enemy, condemning them to desolation," now.

Anyone who believes this is random clearly missed his campaign goal from 2016, and of course, the past disagreements over the years with John Bolton/Mattis.

It's not random u guiz, we should have known all along that at some undefined day between 2016 and 2020, a president would disregard all advisors and ally council and order full troop withdrawals within the span of a day with no prior notice.

Sound defense.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#25 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45434 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@Stevo_the_gamer said:
@Vaasman said:

Rather lame deflection. If the answer wasn't "protracted land war against an uncertain enemy" in the first place, that doesn't make the answer "randomly abandon a longtime, faithful ally who fought a noble cause against a clear enemy, condemning them to desolation," now.

Anyone who believes this is random clearly missed his campaign goal from 2016, and of course, the past disagreements over the years with John Bolton/Mattis.

It's not random u guiz, we should have known all along that at some undefined day between 2016 and 2020, a president would disregard all advisors and ally council and order full troop withdrawals within the span of a day with no prior notice.

Sound defense.

This has been an issue on discussion for a long time now, do not be disingenuous.

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Vaasman

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#26  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14028 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:
@Vaasman said:

It's not random u guiz, we should have known all along that at some undefined day between 2016 and 2020, a president would disregard all advisors and ally council and order full troop withdrawals within the span of a day with no prior notice.

Sound defense.

This has been an issue on discussion for a long time now, do not be disingenuous.

Just because it's an ongoing discussion doesn't mean the end of the discussion isn't abrupt, unplanned, and unexpected. It is you who is disingenuous on that point.

And it will be an issue on discussion for much, much longer now that we've irresponsibly moved away from ongoing assistance to a well developed alliance, damning them and much of the region before a better solution is found.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#27 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45434 Posts

@Vaasman said:
@Stevo_the_gamer said:
@Vaasman said:

It's not random u guiz, we should have known all along that at some undefined day between 2016 and 2020, a president would disregard all advisors and ally council and order full troop withdrawals within the span of a day with no prior notice.

Sound defense.

This has been an issue on discussion for a long time now, do not be disingenuous.

Just because it's an ongoing discussion doesn't mean the end of the discussion isn't abrupt, unplanned, and unexpected. It is you who is disingenuous on that point.

And it will be an issue on discussion for much, much longer now that we've irresponsibly moved away from ongoing assistance to a well developed alliance, damning them and much of the region before a better solution is found.

The order was originally given in December of 2018.

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Vaasman

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#28  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14028 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer said:
@Vaasman said:

Just because it's an ongoing discussion doesn't mean the end of the discussion isn't abrupt, unplanned, and unexpected. It is you who is disingenuous on that point.

And it will be an issue on discussion for much, much longer now that we've irresponsibly moved away from ongoing assistance to a well developed alliance, damning them and much of the region before a better solution is found.

The order was originally given in December of 2018.

Nope. In December the president declared they would be moving out of Syria, but plans to do so were still being drawn up. No one had been informed as to the date, timing, or wisdom of doing so, and as far as any public knowledge is concerned, no one had any orders. And none of that excuses the action in the first place even if they had been informed, so once again, shit deflection.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-military-preparing-for-a-full-withdrawal-of-its-forces-from-northeastern-syria-11545225641

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mrbojangles25

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#29  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44797 Posts

@JimB said:
@plageus900 said:

@JimB: Because we stuck our nose in their business 17 years ago. It's poor form to occupy a region for almost two decades, screw everything up and then do an about face and leave. Trump is pissing off a lot of allies by doing this.

You can't turn around a say Europe should handle this when it was us that created the problem in the first place.

17 years ago people from this region of the world attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens. I would have rather we razed the area so a blind man walking over the ground would not stumble. Trump now has the right idea when it comes to fighting wars. When attacked destroy them and leave.

What region? Saudi Arabia?

As for "destroying them" then "leaving", what exactly did we destroy? Al Queda? OK, that led to the Taliban. OK, we got them, now what? ISIL/ISIS? OK, we got them too, now what?

You see what's going on here? We call that "repeating history". All we did was make a mess of things and leave. We didn't solve anything. All we did was guarentee that something worse will come, and with Russia now in the fray, maybe it won't be a couple towers falling down before work starts. Maybe it will be a populated city during rush hour with a suitcase bomb. Or maybe a vial of ebola.

One of these days instead of invading and trying to make the lives of people shitty when they couldn't possibly get any shittier, we will show them the light. Bring them internet, plumbing, running water, electricity, cable/satellite television, consumer goods. Give them reasons to not blow themselves up.

@Stevo_the_gamer said:
@Vaasman said:
@Stevo_the_gamer said:

So the left wants troops stationed overseas in a conflict that isn't our own? Interesting.

Rather lame deflection. If the answer wasn't "protracted land war against an uncertain enemy" in the first place, that doesn't make the answer "randomly abandon a longtime, faithful ally who fought a noble cause against a clear enemy, condemning them to desolation," now.

Anyone who believes this is random clearly missed his campaign goal from 2016, and of course, the past disagreements over the years with John Bolton/Mattis.

That's a fair point, suppose we should have seen this one coming.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#30 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45434 Posts

@Vaasman: "plans to do so were still being drawn up" Right, starting in 2018.

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mrbojangles25

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#31 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44797 Posts

Honestly, I think his plan is to withdrawal, let the region go to shit, then blame Iran and go to war with them.

Wartime presidents generally get re-elected.

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#32 HoolaHoopMan
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@JimB said:
@plageus900 said:

@JimB: Because we stuck our nose in their business 17 years ago. It's poor form to occupy a region for almost two decades, screw everything up and then do an about face and leave. Trump is pissing off a lot of allies by doing this.

You can't turn around a say Europe should handle this when it was us that created the problem in the first place.

17 years ago people from this region of the world attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens. I would have rather we razed the area so a blind man walking over the ground would not stumble. Trump now has the right idea when it comes to fighting wars. When attacked destroy them and leave.

The hijackers were Saudis, JimB. What you're advocating for is mass murder. How would you feel if we wiped out all of Europe for the action of a few Frenchmen?

Do you understand how f*cking psychotic you sound?

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LJS9502_basic

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#33 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167848 Posts

@JimB said:
@plageus900 said:

@JimB: Because we stuck our nose in their business 17 years ago. It's poor form to occupy a region for almost two decades, screw everything up and then do an about face and leave. Trump is pissing off a lot of allies by doing this.

You can't turn around a say Europe should handle this when it was us that created the problem in the first place.

17 years ago people from this region of the world attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens. I would have rather we razed the area so a blind man walking over the ground would not stumble. Trump now has the right idea when it comes to fighting wars. When attacked destroy them and leave.

Your geography is off…….so is your history.

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phbz

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#34 phbz
Member since 2009 • 4749 Posts

@JimB: You're a bit off, those guys are from the same region that Trump's brags about selling billions in weapons.

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#35 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 1977 Posts
@phbz said:

@JimB: You're a bit off, those guys are from the same region that Trump's brags about selling billions in weapons.

which are most likely used to terrorize our allies

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SUD123456

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#36 SUD123456
Member since 2007 • 5392 Posts

@JimB: Good job. You would make an excellent extremist/suicide bomber because your 'logic' is exactly the same 'logic' used by them.

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#37 plageus900
Member since 2013 • 2774 Posts

@JimB: My cousin was killed on 9/11/2001; 18 years ago. He was killed by Saudi, Egyption and Emirate terrorists. Clearly he doesn't need uninformed troglodytes like you pretending to defend him.

Keep worshiping your dear leader; that's all you're good at.

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#38 JimB
Member since 2002 • 2607 Posts

Sorry about your cousin. Our troops were in Syria because of ISIS and their terror attacks mainly in Europe. Hence my comments about the Europeans. Trump's policy is to fight war's win them and then leave and get out of the nation building. One other thing he has shown great restraint in attacking other countries.

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JimB

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#39 JimB
Member since 2002 • 2607 Posts

@SUD123456 said:

@JimB: Good job. You would make an excellent extremist/suicide bomber because your 'logic' is exactly the same 'logic' used by them.

In some cases you have to fight fire with fire.

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#40  Edited By comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35992 Posts
@JimB said:

Sorry about your cousin. Our troops were in Syria because of ISIS and their terror attacks mainly in Europe. Hence my comments about the Europeans. Trump's policy is to fight war's win them and then leave and get out of the nation building. One other thing he has shown great restraint in attacking other countries.

the military's job is to fight a war and win it. the president is not the military. the president's job is to have a fucking plan for what to do once the war is done and not just leave to try to fulfill an ill-informed campaign promise

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LJS9502_basic

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#41  Edited By LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167848 Posts

@JimB said:

Trump's policy is to fight war's win them and then leave and get out of the nation building.

You don't level an area and then leave it.

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#42 Drunk_PI
Member since 2014 • 2885 Posts
@JimB said:

Sorry about your cousin. Our troops were in Syria because of ISIS and their terror attacks mainly in Europe. Hence my comments about the Europeans. Trump's policy is to fight war's win them and then leave and get out of the nation building. One other thing he has shown great restraint in attacking other countries.

Your comments are antithetical to everything that current and former military leaders, as well as historians and experts who study warfare and insurgencies.

You can't just bomb something into oblivion and expect them to disappear. We tried that. It doesn't work. In the aftermath of the Iraq War, we saw a resurgence in militia groups, one of them being ISIL in its infancy. When we left Iraq, ISIL went into full effect and changed the landscape of the Middle East for the worst.

Btw, Obama's decision to leave Iraq was a terrible idea. I want to make that clear as this isn't a political, right vs left wing thing, and as much as I opposed the 2003 Iraq War, I never supported leaving it entirely because of the geopolitical ramifications.

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#43 joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2862 Posts

@HoolaHoopMan said:
@JimB said:
@plageus900 said:

@JimB: Because we stuck our nose in their business 17 years ago. It's poor form to occupy a region for almost two decades, screw everything up and then do an about face and leave. Trump is pissing off a lot of allies by doing this.

You can't turn around a say Europe should handle this when it was us that created the problem in the first place.

17 years ago people from this region of the world attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens. I would have rather we razed the area so a blind man walking over the ground would not stumble. Trump now has the right idea when it comes to fighting wars. When attacked destroy them and leave.

The hijackers were Saudis, JimB. What you're advocating for is mass murder. How would you feel if we wiped out all of Europe for the action of a few Frenchmen?

Do you understand how f*cking psychotic you sound?

I've become numb to the right's cries of genocide. Does that make me a bad person? I hear it all the time from these clowns...

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LeicaM6

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#44  Edited By LeicaM6
Member since 2019 • 234 Posts
@drunk_pi said:

Btw, Obama's decision to leave Iraq was a terrible idea. I want to make that clear as this isn't a political, right vs left wing thing, and as much as I opposed the 2003 Iraq War, I never supported leaving it entirely because of the geopolitical ramifications.

I agree with everything you said, however, I just want to correct this part. The decision to leave Iraq was not Obama's decision, but rather Bush's and the withdrawal began in December 2007, more than a year before Obama came into office. That original agreement with the Iraqi government for withdrawal also included a deadline of December 2011. There was nothing Obama could do and the Iraqi government wanted the US out anyway.

Arguably, Coalition Provisional Authority Order 2 signed in 2003 that disbanded the Iraqi military, security, and intelligence infrastructure of Saddam Hussein was a bigger mistake than the withdrawal agreement anyway. The top ranking members of Al Qaeda in Iraq and then later ISIS was made up of ex-Saddam military men and a lot of the rank and file were ex-soldiers.

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comp_atkins

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#45 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35992 Posts
@leicam6 said:
@drunk_pi said:

Btw, Obama's decision to leave Iraq was a terrible idea. I want to make that clear as this isn't a political, right vs left wing thing, and as much as I opposed the 2003 Iraq War, I never supported leaving it entirely because of the geopolitical ramifications.

I agree with everything you said, however, I just want to correct this part. The decision to leave Iraq was not Obama's decision, but rather Bush's and the withdrawal began in December 2007, more than a year before Obama came into office. That original agreement with the Iraqi government for withdrawal also included a deadline of December 2011. There was nothing Obama could do and the Iraqi government wanted the US out anyway.

Arguably, Coalition Provisional Authority Order 2 signed in 2003 that disbanded the Iraqi military, security, and intelligence infrastructure of Saddam Hussein was a bigger mistake than the withdrawal agreement anyway. The top ranking members of Al Qaeda in Iraq and then later ISIS was made up of ex-Saddam military men and a lot of the rank and file were ex-soldiers.

agreed.

the mid to lower ranking officers and soldiers ought to have become part of iraq's new military. taking away a shitload of people with the proper training's jobs and not provide them an alternative to support themselves is asking for trouble.

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Jacanuk

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#46  Edited By Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19322 Posts
@Vaasman said:

https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Turkey-attacks-Kurds-SDF-in-Iraq-Syria-as-US-withdraws-604010

It seems Turkey didn't care much about Trumps tweets about devastating their economy with his bigly wisdom. We've left a key Middle Eastern ally at the mercy of an authoritarian strongman government, which immediately went on the offensive in Syria and Iraq, despite a super stern warning via twitter from the president.

This is yet another terrible blow to our perception in the world stage. We've brazenly abandoned an ally in need, who we had already committed to, for no real reason. Between this and pulling out of European agreements, shitting on allies near and far, and cuddling with dictators, how can anyone ever trust us again? Every American treaty, agreement, trade deal, or negotiation will have a safe window of 4 years at most, before some jackass potentially rolls into office to undo it all.

Eh? America has multiple times left the "Kurds" to themselves Clinton and Bush sr. all left them out to dry and it´s not the first nor last time America put their own interests ahead of "helping" small-time allies.

So don´t pretend that this is suddenly all on Trump.

Also, go check up on Libya and also Syria.

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LJS9502_basic

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#47 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167848 Posts

@Jacanuk said:
@Vaasman said:

https://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Turkey-attacks-Kurds-SDF-in-Iraq-Syria-as-US-withdraws-604010

It seems Turkey didn't care much about Trumps tweets about devastating their economy with his bigly wisdom. We've left a key Middle Eastern ally at the mercy of an authoritarian strongman government, which immediately went on the offensive in Syria and Iraq, despite a super stern warning via twitter from the president.

This is yet another terrible blow to our perception in the world stage. We've brazenly abandoned an ally in need, who we had already committed to, for no real reason. Between this and pulling out of European agreements, shitting on allies near and far, and cuddling with dictators, how can anyone ever trust us again? Every American treaty, agreement, trade deal, or negotiation will have a safe window of 4 years at most, before some jackass potentially rolls into office to undo it all.

Eh? America has multiple times left the "Kurds" to themselves Clinton and Bush sr. all left them out to dry and it´s not the first nor last time America put their own interests ahead of "helping" small-time allies.

So don´t pretend that this is suddenly all on Trump.

Also, go check up on Libya and also Syria.

Reagan should be added to that list.

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Jacanuk

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#48 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19322 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:

Reagan should be added to that list.

Yup and same go for JFK and a bunch of others.

The end result though is that Turkey is as much as our ally and more important than the kurds and the fight is not ours. So withdrawing is the only answer.

If the UN wants to save them, then put a UN peace-corp there.

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hrt_rulz01

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#49 hrt_rulz01
Member since 2006 • 19440 Posts

@tenaka2 said:

It's what russia wants, why are people confused by this?

Nailed it.

Further proof he's Putin's puppet.

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KungfuKitten

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#50  Edited By KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 26908 Posts

Let's put it like this. If you're a good leader, you don't need to silence them.

Mr. E is not in an easy position and I'm sure he wants only great things for his people. But to me he seems ruthless.

And the Turkish who are calling for a sultan or a new Ottoman empire? I believe they don't know what it is they are asking for. The pride of Turkey was not the blood that was shed. Those were their darkest moments. Not their brightest.