Should we talk about Hong Kong?

I missed your post.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/12/hong-kong-protests-brutal-undercover-police-tactics-spark-outcry

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49324822 Granted this one claims the police officers are not supposed to stir up violence. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3022457/elite-police-raptor-squad-went-undercover-target-radical Pretty much the same here.

I had other sources a few weeks ago, but unable to find them again.

Ummm...They absolutely do. You said that countries couldn't use military might to control territory forever, and I provided you with several examples of the U.S. doing just that. Filippinos resisted, and we quashed their resistance. We deposed the monarchy of Hawaii with a coup. We occupied Haiti for decades. We put the local population of Guam into forced labor camps. We still control some of these territories, and others are still recovering from our rule. That is a direct counterpoint to your argument.

It's always so hilarious to see defenders of American imperialism attacking other countries' imperialism. It was good when we did it because we were the ones doing, but it's bad when they're doing it because it's them. I think they call that identity politics.

As we have seen with the recent Blizzard and NBA controversy, we are learning that there is a lot of Chinese money in the pockets of American and international companies so they'll rarely speak out against the government unless they want to be cut off from China's huge market so companies instead pander to the Chinese government and censor themselves.

There is also the unfortunate fact that the masses have short attention spans and will eventually move on to the next trend/outrage/distraction the media puts out within at least a month. Remember the Free Tibet Movement? Exactly...... What China is doing to Hong Kong is no surprise to anyone that has actually payed attention to what is going on in China.

Dude what the hell. If any current country were close to being Nazi Germany it would be China. They have actual concentration camps where they force the native Muslim population and those that speak out against the government into brutal slave labor, harvesting their organs while still conscious and straight up being executed. This is a government that banned Winnie The Pooh just because someone made a meme of the "president" looking like him and the letter "n". They invaded Tibet and modified the Buddhist religion to suit the needs of the government and indoctrinate more people. They modified their own constitution to effectively allow Xi Jinping to be "president" for life.

It still doesn't negate the examples where they failed. There is no absolute on either side but its undeniable that being armed at least gives you a better fighting chance than not being armed at all. Again why is it that despite having superior military forces we've been in wars with middle eastern countries going over a decade when these middle eastern opponents have no tanks and planes or barely any at all. What about Vietnam where despite the fact we not only had superior firepower and bombed the place like crazy but we used chemical warfare so powerful we genetically screwed up a chunk of the Vietnamese population for generations to come and we still lost?

You bring up Haiti being conquered but ignore how the slaves were able to successfully rebel against their masters and the French military.

Another note its funny how people that call for gun control/gun bans call the weapons Americans have access to military grade and say they're too dangerous for civilians to possess yet at the same time say we'd have no chance of standing up to our own military because they have superior firepower.

You are going through a lot of trouble to try and derail the conversation I made to prove my point. Yes, superior firepower has been enough in the past to bend countries to the aggressor’s will. In many of those cases, the population was unarmed and had no way to resist.

But other situations such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and even our own Revolutionary War have shown that armed populations had the ability to resist superior military forces. Repeating over and over again that America has done some bad things to some other countries doesn’t make the examples above less true and disprove my original point about an armed Hong Kong potentially being a bigger problem for China than an unarmed one.

The conversation I had with Joe wasn’t an attempt to either praise or criticize past actions of the United States other than the fact that they passed the Second Amendment. But you keep bringing up those other countries and talking about American imperialism, which makes me believe it have less to do with you trying to prove me wrong on the fact that armed rebels can push back hostile forces and more to do with you trying to throw America under the bus again as a racist warmongering country.

@NoodleFighter

Reponse to last paragraph:

The insurgents in Iraq, afghan, Vietnam and other areas they were able to defeat USA forces. So, civilians, I'm pretty sure can defeat a superior military force. But I would admit those were invasions so the military would have a harder time to know the area and those countries were mostly rural so I don't know what an urban environment will feel.

Defeat? Mostly the politicians in the US defeated the US forces. Not insurgents.

Actually, in all of the examples I provided the population was armed and did fight back. We did occupy Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam for years, and only gave up control once we had lost the political will to continue fighting. And we would have lost to Britain without France intervening in the war and basically winning it for us. Prolonged military conflicts usually end one of two ways: either one side gets sick of fighting and resisting protest movements and gives up, or some superior force intervenes and quashes any hope for a military victory.

And I'm not derailing the thread. I honestly find it hilarious how the same people who think that factually pointing out America's bloody history is "throwing America under the bus" are cheerleading the opposition to China when it employs those exact same tactics. If America is so great despite those "bad things" it did to "some other countries" then why don't we just sit back and let China do its thing now? A decade or two later, I'm sure it'll be just as great and all those "bad things" it did to "some country" will be but a distant memory.

You still missed the entire point of my reply to Joebones. How hard is it to realize the whole conversation I had with him was about his fallacy of assuming an armed population would still be powerless to invaders that didn't want to commit genocide outright? Yes, there will be situations where an armed population either gives up or is destroyed by a ruthless aggressor but not all situations end like that.

Or maybe you did get the point, but you can't resist any opportunity to insult the U.S. even if doing so is changing the subject of what you are replying to. If you want to talk about how horrible America is to placate your white guilt then you should consider starting another thread; this thread was about China trying to crush resistance in Hong Kong.

@horgen: No no no! You previously accused the police of rioting!

The three sources you showed me did not show a single word that implied the police were rioting.

Moreover the only people in Hong Kong that is legally allowed to use force is the Hong Kong police and they have been too soft in my opinion.

Now go back and find sources or evidence to back up your claims. You are a MODERATOR if you make statements you better back them up.

Speaking of Hong Kong protests, did anybody notice all the protests going around the world started in this month?

Iraq protests, Lebannon protests, Ecuador protests, Chile protests, Spain-Catalonia protests.

Wonder if there will be a Canada - Qubec protests this month?

@kadin_kai: Too soft? wow! Look up online, tons of video out there! Some of the footage can cost a good few million dollars law suit if it happened in U.S.. For one example one of the person was just bystander and tell police "Did you loose your heart?" and He got his a$$ beat down and arrested.. Now you tell me too soft . With all the crazy things and not even a single investigation on the Police end!

@ni6htmare01: Did you see regular people walking down the street being beaten up and spray painted in the face for simply taking photos?

A man waved a Chinese flag and now he is in a coma?

Did you see the police man walking down a bridge and a 19 year old took out a knife and slashed his neck?

@kadin_kai: while you name a few I saw at least 10 times more what the mobs and the police did. Just look up 7-21 and 8-30 in Hong Kong. So the cops can just rush in the train beat up people and don’t arrest them afterward.. Mobs hitting people and police arrest the person who got beat up and send off the attackers because they are pro China .. Cops sexual harass young girls. Also Harass and non stop curse at people and families who were simply wearing black or passing by? There are reason why people took matter in there own hands because they do not believe in Hong Kong police and government if you look at their recent poll. While you at it why were the cops harass and throw pepper spry at tourist? Just 2 days ago caught on tape that a cop tell a tourist to please “fu ck off” repeatedly. Now a tourist is a rioters? Oh also shot a blind a few people include reporter and medic? Search people In the street and have them show receipts on things in their beg or accuse you are a thief? The lasts goes on and on.

Yeah they break the stores.. China bank and 360 who happened to be own by the Fukkin mobs and the communist China. Is that right thing to do? No. But if Carrie Lam did the right thing few months ago when 2 millions people march down the street. things would never be escalated to the point in no return. Just look at Macau, people never protest because their government actually listen to people. They withdrawn the same bill that try to pass on to Hong Kong right a way as soon as the people spoke up and said no in Macau.

All cops over have to do is act like a what cop supposed to do. Arrest and don‘t throw extra hits on people that already been detained. Stop the barking, cursing and harassment on regular people. Government actually willing to investigate on police Brutality. People in Hong Kong will be less piss off.

@ni6htmare01: There is something called the rule of law.

Firstly, the police are the only group of people legally allowed to use physical force in Hong Kong. So when there are illegal protests (the police grant over 3/4 of applications) they can use force to disband them. It’s the law.

Secondly, ordinary people in Hong Kong are being beaten up. Just check the Now TV news on 13 October, a woman was simply taking photos of protesters she was beaten and her face was sprayed with paint.

Yes there are accusations of sexual harassment by the police, have they been proven yet? I await evidence.

The lady who lost her eye is unwilling to show her medical records. I wonder why? If she was so certain she was hit by the police, why not show her evidence?

The teenager who drowned last week, again protesters blamed she was murdered. Yet, her mother came out and told said she committed suicide.

Protesters claim there is no rule of law, no freedom of speech, the police are the mob. Well take a look at what the protesters are doing, they’ve restricted freedom of speech, they’ve taken away freedom in the city and they cowardly hide behind masks.

Also the recent sixth demand to disband the police? Well isn’t that smart, have a city without police! Clever kids!!!

@kadin_kai: Interesting.

I don't know much about China.

Are the people in Hong Kong worried at all that they may be farmed for their organs like those in Chinese labor camps? I doubt China would be kind to the people of Hong Kong once they take control? Or do you think there is a chance that they will somewhat forgive the people of Hong Kong, maybe after a few generations of servitude?

I am looking to learn the Chinese language. Modern standard Mandarin I mean. Do you know of a good place to learn about this language?

@KungfuKitten: I would not be surprised that there are some dodgy gangs and unscrupulous doctors in China that may prey on people to harvest organs. 1.40 billion people that’s an entire European Union plus two United States. Assholes exist everywhere.

As for being nice to the Hong Kong population. Well why would you think they wouldn’t be nice?

The Chinese government has no reason to marginalise a section of the population.

It gets a lot of bad press regarding Xinjiang, but given the amount of Islamic terrorism in the region (spreading to other regions such as Yunnan, man men going into schools with machetes) where people have gone to Syria for training and return brainwashed. I think these new training camps are far better than let’s say, Guantanamo Bay or killing the population as per the American way.

Is it not factually correct that the Chinese government has helped lift more people out of poverty in the fastest timespan in the past 30 years? 40 years ago, China was poorer than India now, it has the largest middle class in the world.

I spend half my time in China, practically everyone I speak to talks about how shit it was in the past and how happy they are living in modern China.

As for learning Mandarin, mine is just intermediate. I learned gradually, but it’s easy for me since I speak decent Cantonese. Do you speak Cantonese, if so it’s not actually that hard to pick up.

@kadin_kai:

I didn't even know that China had problems with Islamic terrorism. Guess that makes sense, I mean, we all do at this point.

I don't wish any ill for the people in China and/or Hong Kong but I was just thinking: China also wants to reunify or take in Taiwan, right? And maybe other places, too? I am afraid that they may want to make an example of Hong Kong, so that it would be easier to expand to the south, to other places. But maybe that's a silly idea.

I don't speak Cantonese or anything like it, but I'm not worried about how difficult it is. Making the sounds will be just a small hurdle. The biggest difficulty will be the reading and writing, and the customs. I did find a lady named Yangyang Cheng who can teach Chinese. But since you are in China a lot I was wondering if you had any tips.

People deserve basic rights. The actions of the police and the protesters in this specific situation have no bearing on the fact that all people should be able to speak their mind without fear of criminal punishment, should be able to communicate with others without government interference, and should be able to have some sort of say in how they are governed. From what I can tell, the Hong Kong protesters are not asking for anything more than that, so to claim that they are somehow wrong is very misguided.

@kadin_kai: Yeah of cause rules of law matter. And imaging the police are the first one to break it? Started at June when all the protestors were peaceful the Polices do not show there ID. Randomly beating up people! Do not arrest attack but instead arrest the person who were getting hurt because they were not pro government.. Yeah enough said. Let the Police follow the law first before we speak! Oh of cause the police can't do no wrong even when they beat up a person and got caught in camera It was only a "Yellow object" right?

Yeah ordinary people get beat up Bah bah bah..Ok. let see, Started at 7-21 and so on Any white shirt (Pro-Government) can freely beat up any protestors and even use weapons and got a way. (on Video every where that Police escort them after they beat people up.) Lets check 7-21. Most of the attackers has been identify online with the names and even their IG and Facebook pages.. But what did the Police do?? Nothing, they arrest 6 un name people and still no charges.. Protestors were getting butcher with machetes and no arrest. Not until 3 Months after that they said enough is enough and fought back when they were attack.. I have to ask, what TV station did you watch?? If you watch some of the online Hong Kong news media they actually show you live footage without edit and you get to see the Pro Government start the attack first and the protestors getter and fight back.

Is it right to take matter in their own hand? No, but I see why they are doing it seems the polices will not arrest the other group.Also because the polices actions are so questionable that is the reason why 80-90% of the Hong Kongers are requesting an Independent investigation. Also the Hong Kong chief executive approval rating is at 29% and below. That should tell you something!

@ni6htmare01: The law in Hong Kong states, you can apply for peaceful protests and public gatherings, the police has granted over 85% of these during summer. There will be a time and date, usually lasting hours. After that time, if the gatherings do not disperse then you are breaking the law. If you refuse to disperse continually then yes the police are legally allowed to use force.

If you rent a hotel room for one night and overstay you will be charged if you refuse to pay then the hotel owners will call the police. If you still refuse to leave then yes the police will use force. It is very reasonable.

Also, I want to point out one of the five demands, amnesty for the rioters. No. If you go to a MTR station and smash it up or other public property, or beat up people who support the government and spray their faces (including eyes), throw molotov's at the police and set off remote bombs then yes you should be charged.

Similarly, if I went into a rioter's home, smashed up his or her apartment, beat up their families and spray painted their faces and perhaps burned their apartment, I will be charged. It's fair.

But of course, these rioters only want their voice heard. We in Hong Kong, the majority cannot travel freely. We cannot go shopping in Mong Kok, Shatin, Sham Shui Po, Yuen Long on Saturdays, Sundays or Mondays, because there will be riots.

I have lost the freedom of speech because I cannot openly say I support the HK police, a mob will surround me, beat me up and potentially leave me in a coma! If I take photos of rioters, the same could happen, it happened to at least three women in Mong Kok on 13 October, watch the Now TV stream on Youtube.

Have you seen the signs around the city, "Chinazi", paradoxically, it was the Nazi's that told the Jews to go home, it was the Nazi's that burned down their businesses. Just like the Hong Kong-born Chinese doing to the Mainlanders in Hong Kong. Funny that huh? As Alanis Morisette sang, "Ironic".

Again, the Police in Hong Kong are far too soft. If protesters stormed into Parliament in the UK, they would have been shot.

Moreover, HK is clearly in a recession now. Think about all those who have lost their jobs, how is this impacting their families. The thousands who have lost their jobs are mainly Hong Kong-born Chinese people (the people the rioters claim they are fighting for). But of course the protesters do not care, the vast majority do not think about consequences, just like the 19-year-old idiot who slashed a police officer's neck!

Can you not see the irony of all of this? They are Fxxking themselves in the A.

China law = to no law. they have 99.6 conviction rate. They can pretty much make up some crazy stuff to arrest you and put you in Jail. You can look up some of the sample that they arrest you for which is pretty crazy.. Hong Kong people want to the next 30 years the way China promise them but it seems like China wants to slowly take that away.

Anyway, that is why 2 millions people in Hong Kong came out to protest against the extradition law. If Carrie Lam respond right a way and stop the bill non of these would have happened. Instead she hide behind police and use mobs to try to intimidate the people. Now things are out of her hands and is in the point of no return.!

That is why I always thing China using the wrong tactic with Hong Kong. Hong Kong people do not want independent, they just want the way it was before 1997. If China keep their promise and let Hong Kong do its own things. Hong Kong will still make you shit load of money and love every China every minutes for letting them be who they are. Now China can look good to the rest of the world and tell Taiwan "See! One country and two systems is wonderful! Just look at Hong Kong!" Instead now when China tell Taiwan one country and two System, Taiwan give China a big middle finger and said Fxxk off!

@kadin_kai: I know the Hong Kong law. GO look up what they did in the protest in June. When protestors try to leave. They block the exit and start saying illegal gathers. You tell me that is not questionable. Anyway if you want to blame someone? Go blame Carrie Lam. Go talk to the protestors! That what U.S will do. Go investigate the police! I bet you half of the protestors will be gone! Shit.. Instead.. noooo!!! Police can't do no wrong and have police go harass everyone freely. Now if you love in Hong Kong than you actually should thanks those kids for getting Carrie Lam to finally withdraw the bill. If that bill is pass.. Watch how many business owners leave Hong Kong and how many people get arrest for stupid stuff like the book store owner few years back!

@ni6htmare01: Ha! I am so glad you pointed out the Hong Kong Extradition Bill and so timely!

The Bill, which you mentioned, "The Fugitive Offenders and Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters Legislation Amendment," does not cover political or religious matters. But protesters feared it would, despite the bill clearly said it does not cover such issues. Therefore they protested. Clearly they did not read it!

The Bill, legally cannot just be used for extradition to Taiwan only, because Taiwan is legally a part of China. An extradition bill cannot be used to extradite a person to only a part of one country and not another. Obviously!

But what do you expect, the protesters want to be above the law, they want to burn down businesses, beat up people on the streets that do not adhere to their own political beliefs, or simply taking photos! And they want amnesty. No way. If they can do that, then surely I can go into someone's home and do the same!

So what have we got now? A murderer free in Hong Kong after just 19 months of prison time. So timely because as you know, he was released today.

So Hong Kong has a massive loophole, a Hong Kong resident can go and murder anyone in Taiwan and come back and he or she will be absolutely free. Well done! What a loophole!

Yes, I want to blame someone, the rioters. Those idiots who do not understand what they are doing. The rioters who are the real mob of the city. It really is so ironic, they keep shouting at the police, "mobsters," but in fact they're the ones burning down shops, beating up residents, damaging public and private property.

Business owners will leave Hong Kong, because of the idiotic protesters! And guess what? The rich mainlanders will use this as an opportunity, buy more businesses and residential properties!

A weaker Hong Kong economy will reduce Government revenue, leading to a cut in social welfare! Great job kids! (Clap clap clap).

Well done! Protesters have increased the Mainland's stake in Hong Kong, exactly what they did not want! Ironic, very ironic.

Taiwan is not part of China. Taiwan is Taiwan.

@ni6htmare01: I forgot to add, when you burn down Huawei and Xiaomi stores they lose nothing. The losers are Hong Kong insurance companies. Again, the irony!

@kadin_kai: Go ask Taiwan people and see if they agreed with you that Taiwan is part of China dude. I see it obviously you are one of those in Hong Kong that police can't do no wrong people Blue Ribbon.. Is ok at least I understand who I'm talking to here lol.. So let me ask you while I think some of the protestors do get out of hand but do you agreed shit like 7-21 or 8-31 by police are also out of hands? Or you like the 4PM HK police joke conference that noooo.. HK police are the finest!! and We didn't kick no one.. Is a Yellow object!

Yeah like how they caught the police trashing MTR station that dress up as protestor right? It actually show how dumb those police were lol.. All they got to say was Glory to HK and people would have confuse but instead they took out the police flash light.. LOL How smart!! Makes me wonder how many places trash by Polices compare to protestors!!

Wow, you just can't resist the opportunity to insult China, even if doing so is changing the subject of what you are replying to. If you want to talk about how horrible China is to placate your guilt then perhaps you should consider starting another thread.

I'm not insulting the U.S., genius, I'm stating in neutral terms historical facts about the U.S.'s actions. If that's an insult then it's a knock against the U.S., not me. I'm also not detracting. This thread is about imperialist aggression, and I'm using historical examples of imperialist aggression to contextualize things. Maybe you're the one who needs to reconsider his knee-jerk defenses of everything the U.S. does rather than going around accusing everyone who states historical facts of having "white guilt."

The problem with your argument is that you aren't arguing with anyone. Nobody here has been defending American imperialism.

Disregarding the fact that you are trying to mock my statement about you insulting America, your posts were still off subject regarding what you quoted. If you want to insult America that's your prerogative but don't pretend that it was relevant to this particular thread.

The whole conversation I had with Joebones was about a government (China) trying to oppress an unarmed population (Hong Kong) in a theoretical scenario where the oppressed population had the right to bear arms. It was not an attempt to dismiss any atrocities the United States has committed in the past. You can read both the original post of mine you quoted as well as the topic creator's original post and see no attempt was made to excuse any atrocities America committed. You are the one that came to that conclusion; this was all about China trying to bend Hong Kong to their will before you started talking about American imperialism.

It is not a form of white guilt to admit that America has done some disgusting things in the past such as slavery, segregation, or the Japanese internment camps. To deny those things happened would actually be racist. On the other hand, bringing things like American atrocities up in a thread that had absolutely nothing to do with it just to make yourself feel morally superior has a much stronger case of you trying to placate white guilt. Your post history to include conversations we have had in the past before has made a strong case of you feeling that way.

Just leave Taiwan alone. Don't need you or the KMT. Mainland has always considered taiwan people as inferior and worthless rubbish. Now trying to isolate Taiwan from rest of world.

Taiwan people have way more class than the mainlanders.. lol when did you ever see or read any Taiwanese shit or pee in the street.

@ni6htmare01: Oh wow. Insults are coming now and you want to talk about social class.

Do you also insult the millions in India suffering from poverty and have no access to a toilet?

So classy aren’t you. Seems like I have found a real gem! (Clap clap clap)

@kadin_kai: insult? Do I need to show you video or pics ? Hmm. Not something I made up and seems to be pretty well known.. Wanna talk about insult? Insult Like you wanna call names of HK protestors even most of them are non Aggressive ? Hmm.. Poverty? So the mainlanders, they have enough money to fly to other counties and shop in New York outlet high end stores and yet they still just took a bump in the street like it’s there private bathroom . Oh yeah it was on the Chinese radio 1480 as an open debate afterward. So hmm yeah I‘m insulting them. So you wanna compare the rich Chinese to the poor India that don’t have bathrooms? Yeah classic mainlander I see now.. Mainlanders can’t do no wrong. Bah bah bah just like the Hong Kong polices right?? Wasting time to even talk to you. Go back to your TVB and seems HK is so terrible now thanks to those so call Rioters. Maybe you should just stay in mainland be a pound mainlander lol

@ni6htmare01: Love your reaction! When one loses in logic and reason they always scream and shout.

Did I say you are lying? Why not use a few people and generalise for the whole? A few rude people and 1.40 billion people are just the same huh?

That’s how stereotypes begin. The latest one is that the Chinese born in HK are violent mobsters. Ha!

I prefer to see someone urinate on the streets, rather than a teenager beat up someone on the street because he or she has different political view points.

Note: I only have a work visa for the mainland, I was born in the UK. LOL I love how you talk ... “go back to the Mainland, go back to the Mainland,” just the same as what the Nazi’s said to the Jews!

@kadin_kai: hmm who get a big reaction first. oh yeah when I mention Taiwan people had better class than your beloved mainlanders. lol. Sure sure sure.. hmm Few people generalize all. How ironic.. So 1 millions people going around and beat up others and trashing store? Hmm. Only a few out of the protesters than. Oh some of them might even be the HK finest themselves as they were caught on tape.. What Nazi said to Jew is what you guys and the cops call all the protesters.. cockroaches..

lol born in HK but with a heart and soul of a mainlander.. I met a few before.. The protest is not going to stop anytime soon so you might consider to stay up there for good lol oh btw seems I met a few like your fake HKers before and realize is waste of time so I decide to block you. Have fun with TG lol

@ni6htmare01:

Well I do not class those in Taiwan any higher or lower than the mainland. I do not discriminate based on a region of where a person is born, nor their wealth or colour of their skin.

Yes the rioters have been nick-names cockroaches, personally I have never used that term.

What sets humans apart from other animals is politics. Humans use words, reason, logic and compassion to differentiate from other animals.

It seems rioters have yet to learn these basic skills of humanity. Instead they destroy public property, restrict our freedom and threaten us with violence.

The protests will not stop soon. More and more of these people will be caught and charged. They will face the law and have criminal convictions, which will ruin their futures.

The HK economy will weaken further, unemployment will rise, many will fail to pay rent or mortgages and families will be hurt, some destroyed.

Social services will be cut hurting the poorest in society. Paradoxically, the vast number of violent rioters are the poorest of society. The irony huh?

Free Hong Kong huh? In reality, rioters are hurting themselves.

Well, he has, obviously. And regardless, American imperialism is completely relevant to what's going on in Hong Kong. China (and Russia for that matter) are both attempting to build spheres of influence to counteract the dominant world power today, namely the U.S. They're acquiring territory and suppressing opposition in much the same manner as the U.S. did a century ago. It's impossible to try to fight this kind of aggression from within a system that was built on that same sort of aggression. This is just a self-perpetuating cycle that leads the next great power to rise at the expense of the old power, which leads to revanchism, which leads to more pissing contests over who has the most influence, more election meddling and coups, more attempts to influence currency, more proxy wars, more conflict, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This isn't some great battle over right vs. wrong, it's kings fighting over who gets to control the peasants, like it's always been.

@ad1x2: Yeah, all I heard was you accusing me of insulting the United States by stating their past infractions, while leading an attack against China for those same infractions. When it's the U.S., you say it's "some bad things in the past," when it's China, you say it's a moral crisis. You're playing identity politics, as well as being completely and utterly laughable.

@theone86: I don't view American imperialism as relevant at all. All of that happened before anyone on this planet was even born, and if any of those countries still under US control (including Hawaii) want independence, I would fully support that, just as I support the people of Hong Kong getting the basic rights they are requesting, rights that nobody else under Chinese control are afforded.

I think it's hard to go wrong putting the rights of individuals ahead of the welfare of the state in any case, really.

@leicam6: @ni6htmare01: @horgen: Peaceful Protesting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXCkMQ7vvpc

Amnesty for these guys? Really?

FREE HK!

I'm still torn in this whole crisis. Hong Kong needed to stand up against China, but I can't support how biased the movement is. The protesters accuse the police of not taking responsibility for their actions, but they turn a blind eye on the irresponsible acts committed by their own.

I've been really trying to side with the movement, but it's really looking like both sides are just as bad as each other.

This is a great example of concern trolling. ^

The two sides:

totalitarian dictatorship who runs death camps where people get their organs harvested attempting to subjugate and destroy Hong Kong's culture, identity, and civil rights.

OR

average people fighting for freedom and their very livelihoods.

Yes yes, very difficult to know who to support. *eye roll*

@leicam6:

The movement needs a leader that can stand up to China but also has the balls to call out bullshit behaviour from the protesters' side. The current leaders of the movement are either so caught up in their agenda or they're so afraid of losing protesters' support that they don't even address violence from their own side.

When a protester sets a civilian on fire because he had the audacity to express different views and then social media proceeds to start blaming the victim and excusing those sorts of behaviour, this is when I draw the line. When an elderly man gets killed because of a brick thrown by one of the protesters, and then a large response I see from social media is "he deserved it" and "he shouldn't have provoked the protesters", this is when I realize the movement lost its moral compass.

Just because I support the idea of democracy and freedom, it doesn't mean I have to support the means to it. The ends don't justify the means.

How do you propose one leader is able to stand up to China? You're talking about a regime that kidnaps people in the middle of night and for them to never be seen again. Look up the Causeway Bay Books kidnappings. China has millions of people locked up in re-education camps and there is no rule of law in the country. The rest of the world is standing by and watching genocide because China is rich and we gorge ourselves on Chinese capital and cheap goods. That the movement is leaderless is entirely by design because China refuses to play by the rules and makes up new rules as the game goes on. So, the protesters adapt and that's why it is leaderless.

There has been millions of people protesting and perhaps some of them have resorted to violence. It is unfair to condemn the entire movement. But even then, so what if there's violence? Literally every resistance and civil rights movement in history had violent elements to it because the people are fighting the entrenched system, that is what happens. The colonized throughout history didn't win their freedom from the colonizers by asking nicely and hoping the colonizers would let them catch a break, no, they resorted to armed conflict that was fueled by a sense of nationalism because that is what it takes. It is no different in Hong Kong. Hong Kong tried peaceful protests in 2014 and it amounted to nothing so some new measures needed to be taken.